Transitioning to "tap-based ph"

[markwill]

My discus appear to be doing well (bought them last Friday). In setting up my tank earlier, I had decided to shoot for a pH of 6.5 or so and use a ph "targeting" powder. That worked a treat - pH was right around that mark.

However, in reading these forums (yes, Carol, I've been reading like crazy :-)) I am coming to the conclusion that I MAY go with an "untampered" pH for my tank (essentially, accept tap water pH). I am trying to balance my primary objective of happy, healthy discus in a show tank (living room) environment with a relatively low maintenence schedule. To be quite clear, I'll do whatever it takes to achieve that goal - but if there is a way to reduce labor I'll take it :-) More importantly. I reduce the risk of pH spikes or dips, a considerable benefit when I go on vacation and have someone do water changes.

So, here I am around 6.6 or in the tank, thanks to the pH treatment. I need to check again but if I recall my tap water is around 7.4 or so. My thinking is that if I can slowly get the pH in the tank back to that level then I reduce my need to use chemicals (which I consider "not good" if they can be avoided) and, as a secondary benefit, save money too! So, to my questions...


If I go this route, over what period of time should I move from my current pH to that of my tap water?
Would just untreated (no pH conditioner) water changes do the job or would I need to use a pH conditioner that moves me back up? Frankly, I have been doing untreated water changes with - to date - the occasional use of 6.5 conditioner and I have been surprised how "stable" the lower pH has been, given that I have needed to use little additional conditioner. I'm tempted to just stop using the conditioner but I'm not sure if that would move the pH upwards in "jolts".
I have read that ammonia concerns are greatly reduced (removed?) with a pH of 6.6. Presumably, that becomes relevant again at 7.4 or so. Is this correct?
Am I also correct in saying that the bacteria in my filtr are pretty much non-existent at 6.6 - but it's less important due to the previous bulletpoint?
My BIG concern relates to bacteria and what happens in a power cut. A couple of years ago we had three power cuts in the winter (one of which run to 2 days). If I lose power and I am requiring bacteria to be active because my pH is at 7.4, what are the implications of a power cut and how long would it take for the bacteria to die? My understanding is that I am less reliant on active bacteria in the filter with low pH. Is this true?
Although very much a secondary consideration (after simply seeing beautiful discus swimming around!), I would one day love to see a pair breed. Would a higher pH reduce the likelihood of this?


Quite honestly, the fact that discus can be happy at pH above 7.0 was news to me - I guess I fell for all that stereotypical "discus are difficult and everything has to be a specific way" stuff!!! So, the chance to limit the likelihood of pH spikes by using aged tap water (treated with Prime) without any pH treatments is very attractive to me. But I'd like to understand all aspects of this before settling on one approach or another.

Thanks in advance fo any thoughts on this.

Mark

[shaunn]

Mark-

Some of the others may be able to give better detail on what pH level does bacteria cease to thrive in (I doubt it is 6.6... I thought it was like 4.0 and below) but I will say that pH swings are hard for Discus.

I starting using my tap water, and my fish actually thrived on it. I am a rookie, but my first 4 months of Discus ownership I tried hard to keep the water at 6.0.... it just got too much for me. My fish were okay, but when I made the switch (taking two weeks for my fish to adjust too) I haven't seen my pH swing at all and the Discus (and Angels) were more lively than before.

Consistency is key.

[markwill]

Mark-

Some of the others may be able to give better detail on what pH level does bacteria cease to thrive in (I doubt it is 6.6... I thought it was like 4.0 and below) but I will say that pH swings are hard for Discus.

I starting using my tap water, and my fish actually thrived on it. I am a rookie, but my first 4 months of Discus ownership I tried hard to keep the water at 6.0.... it just got too much for me. My fish were okay, but when I made the switch (taking two weeks for my fish to adjust too) I haven't seen my pH swing at all and the Discus (and Angels) were more lively than before.

Consistency is key.
Thanks Shaunn. The irony here is that I am considering adjusting the pH specifically for the end result of a more consistent pH. So, your experience is encouraging. It'll be interesting to see whether there is concencus on the time I should take (two weeks).

Your statement about bacteria is interesting too - quite different to what I understand but I am a relative newbie to this, discounting my experience from 15+ years ago, where NONE of this water treatment stuff was evident to me - and my discus even went so far as to breed. Perhaps there's a lesson there for me about how much I should worry about this :-)

Thanks again.

Mark

[RyanH]

Hey Mark,


If I go this route, over what period of time should I move from my current pH to that of my tap water?

Upswings in pH are much easier on Discus than downswings. I would think that a couple of days of partial water changes with dechlorinated but unadjusted tapwater would be fine.


Would just untreated (no pH conditioner) water changes do the job or would I need to use a pH conditioner that moves me back up? Frankly, I have been doing untreated water changes with - to date - the occasional use of 6.5 conditioner and I have been surprised how "stable" the lower pH has been, given that I have needed to use little additional conditioner. I'm tempted to just stop using the conditioner but I'm not sure if that would move the pH upwards in "jolts".

See above.


I have read that ammonia concerns are greatly reduced (removed?) with a pH of 6.6. Presumably, that becomes relevant again at 7.4 or so. Is this correct?

As long as you have a viable bio-filter and are using a good water conditioner (like Prime) ammonia concerns should be pretty much a non-issue.


Am I also correct in saying that the bacteria in my filtr are pretty much non-existent at 6.6 - but it's less important due to the previous bulletpoint?


I've never heard of nitrobacters being negatively affected by a slightly acid pH but maybe I've been missing something.


My BIG concern relates to bacteria and what happens in a power cut. A couple of years ago we had three power cuts in the winter (one of which run to 2 days). If I lose power and I am requiring bacteria to be active because my pH is at 7.4, what are the implications of a power cut and how long would it take for the bacteria to die? My understanding is that I am less reliant on active bacteria in the filter with low pH. Is this true?

The affects of a power loss on bacteria largely depends on what type of filtration you are using. Bacteria residing in canister filters will die much more quickly than if a power filter is being used, for example. This is due to the lack of oxygen in a pressurized canister. Wet/drys should also be fine for a couple of days if kept wet; as should power filters. I personally would never turn a canister back on if it's been off for longer than a couple of hours at the most. Having a sponge filter running and a battery-powered airpump handy is always a good idea.


Although very much a secondary consideration (after simply seeing beautiful discus swimming around!), I would one day love to see a pair breed. Would a higher pH reduce the likelihood of this?



I have pairs in two different tanks with eggs and wigglers respectively and my pH is in the mid-7's. Aside from breeding Heckels, I think that the need for low pH in breeding has been greatly exaggerated. JMO.

hth
-Ryan

[Carol_Roberts]

You want to make sure your tap water doesn't rise from say 6.6 out of the tap to 7.8 in the tank (mine does) If the tank and tap water are pretty close to the same - say .5 you can do water changes with unaltered tap water. Discus can easily go to higher pH in a short time. Just stop using the pH minus and continue water chnages with regular tap.

[shaunn]

Great point... I outgas my stored water for at least a day before use.

[markwill]

Thanks everyone. My tap water is actually around 7.0 or so (possibly 7.2 - keep in mind I am mildly color blind so it's difficult to read those test kits!!!). With my tank currently around 6.6 I've decided to do water changes with unaltered tap water (albeit adding a little Prime but that's for reasons unrelated to pH).

This will save a little hassle (and some cash).

So, my next question is what is the benefit of ageing? I guess I could include the capability to heat to tank temperature as a benefit, but that seems a minor issue. Right now I run from the tap at a slow rate (takes about 30 mins and I can get on with other things) and mix a little hot water with the cold so that its a "to the touch" similar temperature to the tank. In watching the temperature of the tank as a whole I see virtually no change so this seems to work just fine. Using this approach I'm seeing happy fish - anything I should know that might cause problems if I don't age?

Thanks.

Mark

[RyanH]

The primary reason for aging water is to allow any fluctuations in pH to occur before the water goes into the tank. My water is pretty stable and I don't need to age it. Some people aren't so fortunate and have very large swings.

I would run some water into your storage bin. Measure your pH right away. Then run an airstone and let it sit for 24 hours to allow the co2 to off gas. Check your pH again. If it's stable you won't need to age it.

hth
-Ryan