Headstanding Discus

[liz]

One of my large males has been slightly headstanding for a few weeks now eating ok not looking ill good colour I have him in the hospital tank.I have treated him with the usual remedys Epsom salt ,peas ect Also have had an antibiotic from the vet did not do much good.I have been away on holiday for a week and am just back.Had someone coming in to feed him.He is still looking ok but still not balanced properly.Vet has suggested maybe another antibiotic.What do you think ,does anyone have any ideas?

[jeep]

I agree. See if you can get some Kanamycin. It's great for internal problems!

[Barb Newell]

Hi Liz, what did you treat him with?

Barb

[liz]

Living in Scotland I cant buy over the counter meds.The vet that I go to does not deal with fish but gave me an antibiotic usually to treat pigeons Ornicure containing doxycycline to disolve in the water for five days.I spoke to another vet a distance away who does a little with fish he sent me some Baytril oral solution and suggested that I give him a five hour bath in the solution for seven days.I have to move him back to his tank after the five hours and use fresh solution daily.I have not started this yet.but I am willing to give it a try .What do you think.

[Barb Newell]

Hi Liz, I agree with Jeep. I'd try another antibiotic for 8 - 10 days. If you can get kanamycin, that is good... or can you get erythromycin and oxytetracycline? If you can I'd try EM and oxy a try.

Is he still eating, is his poop still dark?

Barb

[billeagan]

I thought head standing was one of the signs of gill flukes... Is he breathing ok?

[liz]

These meds are difficult to get.He is eating ok and poop fine.His breathing seems ok.I could give him some treatment for flukes internal worms ect instead of the antibiotic.

[raglanroad]

Can't you get Interpret brand meds over there ? They are the most highly recommended ones in the UK.
Dave

[liz]

I sometimes use Interpet also Waterlife meds .They are quite effective in most diseases.

[liz]

The fish is about the same colour good and still eating ok but still slightly headstanding.Noticed last night that one of his gills had shut but after adding some salt it opened again.What would cause this.

[Carol_Roberts]

When fish lose condition due to illness they are more susceptible to parasites or pathogens in the tank . . .

[liz]

Carol I have put him on the antibiotic bath treatment and I will see how that works .The fish looks in good health and eating fine only difference it that he slightly headstanding.I thought it was a swimmbladder problem but not too sure.He has been like this for quite a few weeks now.I have had another couple of fish that had swimmbladder problems but they did not look good and went down very quickly.This fish is totally different .Have you had experiance with this type of problem.What I am wondering is can a fish that is headstanding last for any length of time.

[Carol_Roberts]

I was addressing the clamped gill. Internal bacterial infections with headstanding are very difficult to treat. Depending on the condition they were in to begin with discus can last for weeks as headstanders. . . . I am treating one right now - don't know if he will pull through or not.

[liz]

His gill is ok now.I have had him for a few years he is one of my first Discus.He is the male of my pair .He was and is in good condition except the headstanding.Good luck with your Discus and the other persons hopefully they will all recover.

[tpl*co]

Mine did better when I lowered the pH to 6. But boy did the tank get cloudy from the antibiotic! Looked like a heavy fog bank, but he was swimming around upright! Tried to follow the directions of not doing a water change for 5 days, but something about not seeing your fish through the fog made me nervous so I did one and added more antibiotic. :rolleyes:

We'll see how he is when I get home tonight.

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Liz,

I think Carol is right. It may be due to an internal bacteria infection (endoparasite infection). The area most likely infected is the inner ear where the semicircular canals are positioned. Of the three, the one that controls pitching motion may be most affected...but the rest may also be involved. Having been damaged, their orientation is affected...thus when the body is at rest, the head and the stomach area being heavier, will cause the head to drop.

In early stage, a good concoction of antibiotics may be able to save the situation....but once it has moved to stage two (irrevocable damage), the tissue there is unable to repair itself and will become permanant. As to the antibiotics, you have to check with your vet.

This is not a swim bladder problem as the S.B. function is to control buoyancy (suspension in water). You will notice that many 'Head standings' can still rush for food or decend to pick up food and they look perfectly healthy.

That is my opinion,

Andrew :angel:

[liz]

Thanks Andrew I had read your article on this and wondered if this could be the cause.The vet has put him on to antibiotic baths for five hours at a time they finish this week .There is little or no improvement so far.Though in saying thet he still looks good and is eating fine you should see him catching live bloodworm.Thing that worried me was when one of his gills closed its ok now.When I finish the treatment if he is still ok should I put him back into the community tank and leave him.What is the outlook for a fish like this do they live for long.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Liz,

As your case is different form other cases of Head Standing that accompany darkening of body color and loses of apetite, you discus will continue to eat and grow. ;)

As to whether it will recover from HS, cannot affirm...sorry. :confused:

Make more water-change and give 12 days antibiotics treatment recommended by your Vet. Best to have a concoction that can cover as wide spectrum of both gram positive and gram negative bacteria...as we do not know who is the culprit. Even if you discover certain bacteria in the spleen (you have to kill that discus to learn), the bacterium that is causing or affecting the semicircular canals may differ as it could be a topical infestation.

So, if you don't mind HS discus in your tank, leave it as he is.....and feed him well till his last day.............(maybe 14 years later). :antlers:

Take care,
Andrew :angel:

[liz]

Thanks again Andrew for your advice.I dont mind him being headstanding in the least as long as he is ok.He is one of my first Discus and very tame.The medication that he is on finishes in a few days.I phoned the vet today to ask about something else but he said the one he is on is fine.He will not give me any more medication unless he sees the fish and he is going on holiday tomorrow for two weeks .The other vet in the surgery said he would look at him but is not as experianced with fish.Problem also it is quite a journey a few hours both ways.I feel that might stress him.The fact that he has been on two antibiotics over the past 6 weeks I dont think maybe another lot would do any good .

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Liz,

Since your discus has been on medication for 6 weeks already, stop using antibiotics anymore. Constant exposure to cetain antibiotics can damage certain organs and load the liver.....and may result in further complication...the liver may breakdown...opening the pathway for new and secondary infection and bloated cavity.

Just maintain good water quality with more than regular WC (twice a day) and try as far as possible, maintain pH at 5.5. This is the level where normal bacteria proliferation is quite impossible....thus giving chance for the problem to heal itself....similar to putting Cattapa (or Kattapa) leaves.

But do not forget that at this pH, your nutrifying bacteria in your biological filtration is also not propagating. Therefore it is advised to move the discus to a clinical tank if you want to adjust pH.

Take care,
Andrew :angel:

[tpl*co]

Hello Liz,



Just maintain good water quality with more than regular WC (twice a day) and try as far as possible, maintain pH at 5.5. This is the level where normal bacteria proliferation is quite impossible....thus giving chance for the problem to heal itself....similar to putting Cattapa (or Kattapa) leaves.

But do not forget that at this pH, your nutrifying bacteria in your biological filtration is also not propagating. Therefore it is advised to move the discus to a clinical tank if you want to adjust pH.

Take care,
Andrew :angel:

I found this last item on the pH helped out my discus. I was throwing antibiotics at him but nothing worked until I lowered the pH. After a hour or two he straightened up (and the antibiotics in the tank turned the water cloudy, while at the higher pH the water was clear). Tomorrow I'll take out the antibiotic (he's been on it for 7 days) and see how he does with just keeping the pH down at 6 for a while.

When and how after treatment would you raise the pH back up?

[Andrew Soh]

Hi,

In most cases of suspected infection by bacteria, a 12 day course of concocted antibiotics treatment at correct dosage and lowering of pH to 5.5 is adviced. This is simply explained in the layman's term as:

pH below 6...say, pH5.5 is like tie up your enemy and disallowing them to propagate or move.

Antibiotic treatment:::::1) one type is to block bacteria's protein absorption.
2) another type is a bactericide...punch and kill.

With this concept and its application, what you are doing is........


Tie up so that your enemy cannot retaliate,..then close his mouth and nose.....and finally punch him to death :antlers: . You know what I mean?

This is the principle of my treatment method and has been explained in my.....

But by just subjecting your discus to pH 5.5 alone can help to solve many ectobacteria problems but is slower.

Subjecting the aquarium to pH6 is a critical point and with antibiotic, the bacteria tries to survive and fight back (at this pH, they still can as it is a cross point) by proliferating rapidly....leading to cloudiness and suspended silky threads (dead cells).

But tpl*co, usually cloudiness after putting antibiotic is a sign the the drug is not as effective or you have underdosed...allowing the bacteria to proliferate.

In my opinion, two situations where water turns cluody are:1) Too high protein in water...(try adding Glucose or lysine or milk powder)...bacteria happy and proliferate. 2) Underdose or weak antibiotic in suspension.....bacteria are fighting back and try to proliferate (may lead to mutation and resistance against the drug).

This is my opinion and my observation,
Andrew :angel:

[tpl*co]

But why only cloudiness at the lower pH and not the higher one, and why is the fish getting better with this same antibiotic at the lower pH with the cloudy water? The instructions for Maracyn 2 says it will cause cloudiness so maybe it is just a side effect? The discus is getting some of his color back and is eating a little now (though the water is still cloudy),

[liz]

I have one day to go with the antibiotic so I may as well finish it then I will try lowering the ph.Mine is around 6.6.Would I do this gradually say with ph down.I am off on holiday next Saturday 13th for a week so I need to try and get him sorted out.

[tpl*co]

Hi,



Subjecting the aquarium to pH6 is a critical point and with antibiotic, the bacteria tries to survive and fight back (at this pH, they still can as it is a cross point) by proliferating rapidly....leading to cloudiness and suspended silky threads (dead cells).

But tpl*co, usually cloudiness after putting antibiotic is a sign the the drug is not as effective or you have underdosed...allowing the bacteria to proliferate.

In my opinion, two situations where water turns cluody are:1) Too high protein in water...(try adding Glucose or lysine or milk powder)...bacteria happy and proliferate. 2) Underdose or weak antibiotic in suspension.....bacteria are fighting back and try to proliferate (may lead to mutation and resistance against the drug).

This is my opinion and my observation,
Andrew :angel:


You may have something, the longer I'm treating (without a water change) the clearer the water is getting. I've started adding some Amoxicillin also (left over from a sinus infection I had since I was switched to something else, found out it could also be used on fish same thing as fish mox :)) http://www.vetamerica.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=960

works on gram positive while maracyn two is for gram negative. I'll probably treat him another 3 days at least with both antibiotics (been on the maracyn without a water change I think since tues. with water change been on since last Friday). Looks a lot better and swimming better except his eyes are still a little protruded and cloudy.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi tpl*co,

In some antibiotics or preparation to treat worms and flegalletes, glucose is added into the compound to help in better bodily absorption of the drug. Those using glucose tends to cloud the water on the second and 1/2 of the third day and has not relation to the pH. So, in your case, it is not a drug and a low pH that causes cloudiness.

In such application, a filter media is required to be installed to filter off the suspension till the drug is in full effectiveness and the water becomes clear.

Sorry, I did not produce maracyn and I don't know whether glucose is added in its preparation.

Just my observation,
Andrew :angel:

[Carol_Roberts]

. . . are you seeing actual cloudy water or slime build up on the walls and floor of tank?

[liz]

The fish has now finished the antibiotic and is quite frisky He is trying to straighten himself a lot more.Still eating fine and colour good.I dont know what to do about lowering the ph I feel a bit uptight about it.If it will help him I will lower it.As I said I am going on holiday next Saturday(someone will be coming in to feed the fish) when I am away but has no experience of looking after a sick fish.How long would it take for this treatment.Would I have the time or would I be better to wait until after the holiday.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Liz,

I would suggest no feeding and maintain pH @5.5 in a clinical tank during your holiday may just solve your discus problem ;) ...believe me....maricle happens you know...ha!ha!ha!

In fact LIz, by feeding it when you are not around is the greatest mistake you may make and regret.

During your absence, with good water quality....temperature adjusted to 29c and maybe a preventive additive to water like Acriflavine......and no feeding for 10 days....................your little darling may just recover!!!!!


Warmest regards,
Andrew :angel:

[liz]

That would be nice:).I will cetrainly give dropping the ph a try and not feeding when I am away.Every year when I go on holiday I always seem to get a sick fish they are fine all year until the holidays!
Anyway Andrew thanks for all your advice and I will let you know how the fish gets on.I am going to get a copy of your book after the holidays.

[korbi_doc]

:rolleyes: I have a headstander now that is evidently permanent, going on over 6 months now. Treated a few times with antibiotics to no avail. He/she is in community tank now, doing ok, swims all around, eats & as of now is maintaining weight. I just stopped worrying about it.. Dottie

[Andrew Soh]

Take care Liz,

Enjoy your holiday...and hopefully when you go home, I receive a posting by you that the discus is looking straight into your eyes...he!he!he!

*Just to add...without feeding, there is less organic load on the tank and less nutrient for the pathogen......know what I mean....../

Enjoy,
Andrew :angel:

[fshngal]

Liz,

I have a headstander that has been this way for over a year. I once treated him with a formalin bath and he stopped headstanding for about a month.

Then went back to headstanding. I thought it had something to do with the swim bladder but I am not an expert.

Mary

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Mary,

Swim bladder does not control pitching yawing nor rolling of a fish...only the semicircular canals.

Swim bladder only controls and maintain the buoyancy of a fish....up and down in water.

And because at least one of the three functions was affected and the stomach and the head region are heavier, it is natural for the discus, at rest, to drop on weight to its convenient.

Regards,
Andrew :angel:

[liz]

Just got back from holiday and there is a definite improvement in the fish,I lowered the ph down to just under 6.

[Carol_Roberts]

Kanamyacin healed my headstander to the point he can eat, but balance has not returned.

[tpl*co]

I lost mine :(. Talking to people at the BAD meeting and from others who had fish from this batch of Dragon Kings it seems that everybody had the same or similar problems with them so I think we just had a bad batch or they were hormoned :(. Poor thing was fighting to survive till the end.

[Andrew Soh]

Great Liz,

I am glad there is improvement after the holiday. Good...maintain below pH6..best is at pH5 or 5.5...just beautiful...

Also remember, make sure you feel only once a day for the time being and al the meantime.....

1) Maintain at pH 5.5
2) At the same time, give a 12day treatment with erythromycin to further fuel recovery.
3) Give as little food as possible and maintain good water quality.

Keep us updated, ya? Hopefully there is a full recovery.

warmes tregards,
Andrew :angel:

[liz]

Sorry to hear that your fish has died.

Andrew I was hoping you would tell me to put the fish back into the community tank as I have said he has improved a lot.He has already had two lots or antibiotics do you think another lot would help?

[liz]

Decided to give the antibiotics another try if I can get some.My vet does not deal with fish so I am hoping he will take my recomdation.

[jeep]

This has been an interesting thread. I'd like to thank Anand and Andrew for some excellent information and advise that came around at just the right time for me.

My oldest fish, Eesob, started head standing a few days ago, so I immediatly placed him in QT and treated according to the advise given to Liz. He quit head standing within 24 hours and should be done with treatment in a few more days!!!

[tpl*co]

I must say too, that through this treatment mine stopped headstanding also, it was the permanent bloating, popeye, not pooing that I found out could be a sign of hormoning that got him.

[liz]

Jeep Thats great news.

I contacted my vet today to get some more antibiotics.He says policy is that he cant give me any more antibiotics unless he sees the fish so I will try and get the fish down to him .My local vet is near so it should not be a problem.Some of you are so lucky that you can buy those medicines over the counter.

[liz]

Finally managed to get the antibiotics and the fish has been on them for a few days also on a low PH.The water has turned quite cloudy is this normal?

[Carol_Roberts]

Yes, the antibiotics have killed the good bacteria - you are getting a bacteria bloom. I know it's counterintuitive, but try less water changes - monitor ammonia - don't feed or feed very little. You may be able to go several days with no water changes if your tank is big enough. Your water will clear up.

[liz]

Thanks Will do.

[liz]

Treatment now finished and I am really pleased with him.He is much better keeping more or less upright.If he does occasionally dip he quickly straightens himself back up.I am now going to put him back into the community tank.

[Carol_Roberts]

Glad to hear it :)

[liz]

He is back in the community tank and making his presence felt.The orange pigeon decided he was going to be top dog in his absence and has also been eyeing up his mate.Anyway it seems to have calmed down now and he is back in charge!
Many thanks to everyone for all the help getting the fish well again especially Andrew.