Contemplating major changes at SimplyDiscus... [Archive]

brewmaster15

07-30-2005, 11:55 AM

Hi all,
Change can be a good thing or a bad thing , You can't really know whats going to work and whats not until you try it so once again I am Thinking about making changes here. Some of the things that I am considering to do will be controversial (big news there :rolleyes: ) others won't really affect many here. Some I will try to get some feedback on before I institute them, others , well..They will just happen. :)

One thing I would like to get feedback on now is the current sponsorship system. The way its set up now is I try to screen applicants as best I can for a good reputation.Admittedly, the screening is largely subjective on my part. I ask for references if I do not know someones forum reputation...I talk with their customers etc. Its the best I can do to try to bring quality sellers to the membership here and generate revenue to the site. (Theres a fee involved which helps fund the site and enables the sellers to commercially sell in a designated section of the forum. No commercial sales are allowed outside this area.)

What I want to know from everyone here is whether you think I should allow anyone that wants one to have a banner or be a sponsor here, regardless of their reputation on the forums or in particular circles? This would give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they would behave ethically as a clean starting point. Sponsorships could be removed ( and have been already) when a seller has shown themselves to be "Ethically Challenged".Again, its a subjective decision on my part.

Additionally should I allow comments of members in the sponsor section? This section is currently read only much like a classified section of a newspaper. It has worked great as it keeps the politics out of that section. But it also makes it more difficult for the membership to actually share their experiences with a particular vendor. Theres also a disadvantage in that when you look at that section you only see the most recent sale by a seller., when in fact, several sellers may be having great sales. The benefit is also that section doesn't need moderators since only sponsors can post....its a minor one, but it was a consideration as when posts were allowed there, it tended to need watching.

I am currently trying to come up with a fair way to allow feedback.Its been an area of great concern and head ache for me as I want to allow expression of everyones opinions and experiences but I can't do so at the risk of a lawsuit to the site. I still would not allow flaming someone, but if I can define a way to allow negative feedback I am open to it. The key is it has to be fair...something along the ebay system, not to be used as conflict resolution, but just a sharing of experiences as buyers and sellers. With checks in place that prevent people from anonymously posting to attack someone. I think the persons identity needs to be disclosed in someway....or something similar to that.I will consider anyones suggestions here, and would really be interested in hearing from a few of our lawyers as well.

Another area is auctions...I would like to bring them back...is there a sincere interest and again...should I let anyone sell in an auction?

last question... Chat.. does anyone really use it and want to see it back here?

Thats not all the list, but its a start for now...I want to try to represent what you want So please let me hear your thoughts on these areas. You can contact me and share them anonymously if you prefer.

Thanks,
Al

Carol_Roberts

07-30-2005, 03:44 PM

I think the vendor section is working just fine the way it is now. I'd let anybody have a banner. People with bad experiences can post IM me for details.

Not many people were on chat towrds the end, but we have many new hobbyists here now.

Auctions are good, but should be held on a monthly basis to keep interest up.

Greg Richardson

07-30-2005, 04:26 PM

Hi Al. On the liability issue isn't there a way for a potential sponsor before signing up to sign an agreement releiving this site from liability if someone according to them damages their reputation in any way?

BTW. I think the current PM way of talking among potential buyers works well without bringing flame wars to the site.

I do realize people myself included would like to hear everything about people's transactions before and after the sale to determine if one would do future business with them.

Yet, due to how I think it ruins the site by so much tension along with other factors over all I believe current way works best.

tpl*co

07-30-2005, 09:05 PM

I like the auction/feedback idea. I see things on Aquabid and find out it's someone here (or fish that has passed hands from here). It would give me more warm and fuzzies to know that the person/vendor is directly from here :). Also, I like reading feedbacks/reviews.

FischAutoTechGarten

07-30-2005, 10:12 PM

I'd leave the Reader comments OUT of the Sponsorship section. You'll only hear from those with a complaint and more than likely it will be slightly to greatly exaggerated. It's human nature, people want their complaints to be justified and not to appear petty, so they induldge themselves a bit (ie blow things out of proportion) to make their point. (Most of us have probably been guilty at some time of doing the same thing when we've taken our autos to the dealership for warranty items). The effect is, the casual reader is led to believe the situation is more serious than it really is. Leave the current PM method in place.

In my business now, I have over 300 customers. I only hear from the 10 really obnoxious, ungrateful ones. So, if you screened my answering machine like a forum, you'd think we provide the absolute worst service out there.

Give folks the benefit of the doubt and open the sponsorship up a bit. I'd even go so far as to suggest re-instating a few that have had sponsorshiped revoked, if appropriate (ie can be reasonably certain they will behave). Wouldn't hurt to get a little more money trickling into the site.

funkyfish

07-30-2005, 10:39 PM

i think a poll for every sponsor mite work. it would be nice to know who ppl have had good service from but then agian the sponsor mite not like it cause if folks don't like there service there poll will show it. I would like to see who
offers the best service but thats jmo.I think that idea sounded better in my head :D

Spices

07-31-2005, 12:53 AM

Hi all,
Peter made a good point concerning the human expressions: "over-exhaggerated stories of a bad sale or a good sale." A feedback area will unjustifiably tip the scale for some sellers and others will be left in the dark with no recommendations or very little.

The forum's driving purpose really should be focused on educating and exploring the subject we all love, discus.

We can explore areas of a few contests running with everyone's incorporation. A small nominal (annual) fee for membership to this forum will help to fund contests held on a monthly (twice a month) basis.

We can explore areas of give-a-way contests: have those sponsored breeders put a box (of minimally 3 good quality discus) together and ship it to the monthly jackpot ("Pick-a-Discus-Fan"), for example.

Something jazzy and different will help this forum and boost the game up a bit.

**A**

brewmaster15

07-31-2005, 06:13 AM

Hi all, thanks for the the feedback so far, please keep it coming. Its important to me to hear from as many of you as I can.

-al

ps.. Angie, I will never charge a membership here, It goes against what Ryan and I intend for the forum as a free source of info for hobbyists and breeders. The best I hope for is that people recognize the valuable resource this forum is to them...I'm biased of course but I think Its better than any discus book out there and in many ways on par with local fish clubs and associations as far as interactions IMO. Real time info and real time interactions at any time...you can't find that anywhere but forums like this one. Those that recognize what this site represents and has the potential to do, try to support it and any programs its involved in. Many have over the years, and for that I am grateful.

The Contest ideas and giveways are always great ideas and ones I try to organize...Its may sound easy, but it takes a lot of work and its hard to find people with the free time and interest to help out in the organization of the event. I put a post up a few months ago asking for such help and got 2 replies for one area(legal help) and no replies for anything else.People are just very busy I guess.

kaceyo

07-31-2005, 12:00 PM

I think your "clean start" idea for people wanting banners and sponsorships is a good one. For those who sell discus and related products, a place for their customers to at least rate them might avoid the exagerations and flaming that inevitably goes along with written complaints. The customer could rate the seller in variuos catagories like product quality-shipping quality-responce to questions and problems where Appropriet-etc. Maybe a 1 thru 10 in each catagory or something like it. I think this is basicly what you already had in mind.
I really never go to the sellers section any more unless I'm thinking of buying something. I liked it better before but understand why it wasn't working. A rating system would alow people to build up an idea of who they want to deal with over time.
I think if they are advertizing a particular strain a photo of he tank/fish should be required. It's got to be give and take at both ends.
Contests are allways fun if possible.
Chat? Yeah! Although my current system won't allow for them:(

Kacey

Dillan

07-31-2005, 12:04 PM

I wouldn't feel obligated to screen and endorse your advertisers if you think of them as "advertisers" and not "sponsors". I think the members here are pretty good at identifying both quality and sketchy suppliers... And we know to do our homework before we haul out the credit card. Having said that, I also think that if you know a supplier to be "ethically challenged" (love that phrase!) then you're not obligated to accept their advertising. Thanks for facilitating this community!!!

Don_Lee

07-31-2005, 01:46 PM

Here is my two cents.........maybe three, lol.
I think anyone that would like to get a banner should be able to get one. Of course, the site owner/administrator always has the option to pull the banner if there are difficulties with a particular seller. Feedback would be a good thing, and keeping it strictly to a numeric rating type scale would be a non-confrontive way to post opinions.
I would tend to think the sponsors should decide if they want others to be able to post in the Sponsor area.....
I miss chat alot, and would love to see it back. Some of us used to have a great time on it, and for emergencies it really allows instant feedback.

Don

Bainbridge Mike

07-31-2005, 02:16 PM

Hi Al:

I think you should give everyone the benefit of the doubt in allowing folks to purchase banners. If the seller does not perform up to the standards we expect, people will find out about it. As for the liability issue---I think you can include language in your contract with the sponsors indemnifying you and Simply from all claims resulting from 3rd party statements. (then if there is a real problem with the statements, the sponsor still has recourse against the party making the statements in the first instance.) I really enjoy participating in this online community, so I hope the legal stuff does not get in the way. You can PM me if you want to discus the legal stuff further.

Mike

April

08-01-2005, 01:09 PM

i think the banners should be opened up.
some kind of feedback could be good . not sure how you could implement it though. maybe feedback via im forum.

Howie_W

08-01-2005, 02:04 PM

I also think feedback is a good thing.

Something to consider;

Anyone who uses Ebay and is familiar with it's workings, knows that part of the buying and selling process involves a rating system. Part of the rating system is based upon buyer and seller feedbacks.

When making a purchase from Ebay, it's extremely helpful to look at a sellers history, and draw your own conclusions i.e. two negative commments versus 500 postives ones says a great deal.

Perhaps there's a way we could come up with something similar? :)

Howie

ShinShin

08-01-2005, 03:55 PM

I would be opposed to an open banner policy. The integrity of the forum is at stake. If I saw a banner from a certain "dealer" , let's say from California promoting his infamous "Chameleon" discus, I would assume that, because I saw his banner here, that an implied endorsement by the forum has been granted, therefore, that "dealer" must be reputable and a purchase would be safe. Is the concern here for more revenue so that the forum may grow? Or, is more revenue needed just to maintain the status quo? If the answer is the former, rather than the latter, I vote for no growth. Bigger does not mean better in all cases. If it is the latter, then I still see no reason at this point to compromise intergrity for dollars. More information would be needed to base a decision.

I don't care about the Chat Line one way or the other.

Buyers need a way to give feedback on vendors, pro & con. Not in the vendor section, though.

Auctions would be good, I believe.

I would like to see doing away with screen names and have people's actual "real" names used 100% of the time.

Bainbridge Mike

08-01-2005, 09:19 PM

In light of the comment above, I need to clarify what I meant when I said that breeders/importers seeking a banner should be given the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that banners should be available to anyone and everyone. Instead, a breeder/importer should be given the benefit of any doubt. However, if a vendor with a bad reputation (from a reliable source) applied for a banner, then there would be no doubt and the application should be rejected. Sometimes (but not often, sadly) people change, so you should also consider giving some potential sponsors/advertisers a second chance. Unlike major league baseball, however, there should be no such thing as a 4th, 5th or 6th chance.

Thanks,
Mike

jdellman

08-01-2005, 11:46 PM

Al,

Regarding the banners, maybe you can have the best of both worlds. Have it open to all, and the ones that you know are reputable, you can label them "endorsed." A poll can be set up for those who have dealt with a particular sponsor, and give a positive rating, and set a number for positive ratings for an "endorsed" label. An alternative would be to give a subjective "opinion" on a site that it is "endorsed" by you, similar to how you are allowing sponsors now. The subjective opinion, as long as it is stated as such, should provide the site with legal protection. The poll would probably provide more legal protection.

I personally agree with ShinShin's suggestion to do away with screen names. It takes awhile to figure out who everyone is, and for the new people, it would help identifying who people are refering to when they alternatively refer to screen names and real names. I would think the real names would especially help those who are selling Discus. It took me a while to figure out which screen name was associated with the different sites selling Discus, and I still am unsure about some of them.

I do not know if it is possible to set it up, but there may be a way to have people keep their screen names, but when they post, a "signature" automatically lists their real name.

As far as the chat room, I think it is a good idea, especially for those times when someone is having a problem.

Just my thoughts.

Jim

Gold Mt Discus

08-01-2005, 11:48 PM

Love the auctions and contests ideas. Chat is even okay, as long as it pertains to the discus world. If youngsters are coming on this site and can use the chat, you would need some kind of control.
As a new discus person, I enjoy this site. There is enough information here and knowledgeable people that I personally could be kept busy learning for the next 20 years. I don't want to be stressed out reading about negative stuff. And being curious, I would go to those sections. I wouldn't be able to help myself. Then the fun starts dropping out of it. Pretty soon, you don't come at all.
And, as a new discus person here, I would pay a monthly or annual fee to be able to come here. I could never afford to pay for the true value of the information in here so annual or monthly dues would be okay with me.
Respectfully,
Frank

brewmaster15

08-02-2005, 02:20 AM

This is the kind of feedback I need from the site so please keep it coming.

On the banners and sponsors..its not a decision related to revenue. Although Additional Revenues is always needed to run a web forum like this unless its owner is independently wealthy (which I am not :D ), I just want to get a feeling for how you all look at the banners and sponsors, and a feeling of what my criteria should be, if any in allowing a seller a spot here. I have always felt an obligation to try and raise the bar as far as discus standards and ethics...which is why I have the current banner and sponsor policies in place...I do however realize that not everyone agrees on who is a good seller and who is not, and that my subjective view may not be fair. That said , is my subjective view and attempted screening fair enough for the sites membership? I know I can't please everyone in how I run the site, but I do want to take as many peoples thoughts to heart over matters where I can.

-al

Robin764

08-02-2005, 11:17 AM

One of my all time favorite things to look at here before it was changed was the photos folks would post under the vendor section of their newly acquired fish purchased under the 4-sale thread. This has led to purchases for me from the same vendor.

I love to see, newly shipped fish looking great, and greedily consuming what their new owners throw into the tanks.

You know what threads I mean....the ones that say...
Hey Cary, fish arrived, looked great!...here they are after 24 hours eating happily......

I say, let em post their feedback on their purchases....if its a matter of policing the vendor thread for negatives...because I do agree they should not be allowed....I would be happy to volunteer my services:)
I only work about 20 hours a week now...and have plenty of time!

I also hate the format of the vendor threads as they are now....I like to log into it, and see all the recent posts for fish for sale, and as it is now, it is very difficult to see. Especially those vendors such as Jeff, GLD, and Dan where the fish are literally sold within hours of posting!

The sponsorship I think should remain the same. I know if I click on a banner here, I am going to a reputable site. However, if the possibility of more sponsorships would ultimately be better for the site, then I like the endorsed idea:)

Just my 10 cents...(inflation ya know)

Robin

Robin764

08-02-2005, 11:20 AM

oh...PS....

Auctions...Yay!....Auctions....Yay!

Robin

Don_Lee

08-05-2005, 03:37 PM

Tad

08-05-2005, 03:50 PM

Good post Don,

regards,

Tad

Discusgeo2

08-05-2005, 04:58 PM

I also agree with Don there are some who don't give a darn about the sale afterwords. Like the Link that Don has posted above, it looks like Hep's Discus Center has created more controversy on the way they have handled a certain sale which has not been the first time this company has done this.

RyanH

08-05-2005, 05:18 PM

Giving a person the benefit of the doubt or a "second chance" is fine under some circumstances. Nearly every breeder or importer has, at some time in their careers, been involved in a transaction where the customer was less than pleased with the product that they spent their hard-earned money on. Most of these sellers indeed have the best of intentions but are still, afterall only human and inevitably will make mistakes. However, the difference between these sellers and the bad egg variety is that in the end, they do their best to make the situation right for the customer.

This is obviously not the case with all sellers. There are also plenty of bad eggs out there that need to be recognized as such. Allowing these sellers with a long history of consistently unethical dealings to advertise here would only serve to hurt unsuspecting members and damage our reputation in the hobby IMO. I believe that we have a responsibility to do everything we can to protect our members from fraudulent and unethical transactions. This starts with screening who can and who cannot advertise their fish here. Our members expect and deserve only the best information that maximizes their chances of succeeding in this hobby. This includes who to buy and who not to buy fish from. Anything less and we are letting them down.

Discretion needs to continue when choosing sponsors IMO.

-Ryan

korbi_doc

08-05-2005, 06:29 PM

I believe Ryan has it right! I've always felt that if a forum allows a "sponsor" or "vendor's banner", it inevitably is inherent that the forum endorses these vendors, even when they put up a disclaimer. I was outvoted on this, but still believe it to be true, especially with "newbies" who haven't figured out the differences yet...The incident of the past week demonstrates how severely any bad behaviour can affect a good forum with the best interest of hobbyists at heart...hopefully this problem will be resolved & most members will be satisfied. Not all will be.. & Ryan I especially appreciate your statement: Quote:

"I believe that we have a responsibility to do everything we can to protect our members from fraudulent and unethical transactions. "

This may be a tall order, but at least you're trying your best!!

As to the chat, I used to check in sometimes & did like it, although many times was just too tired (gettin' old haha) at night to continue; but then they started with some kind of vocal "radio" connection & I couldn't figure out how to get in on it.. just my $.02.... Dottie

Spices

08-05-2005, 11:19 PM

I need to amend my earlier statement about potential sponsors/banners....I do not believe just anyone should be allowed to have a banner on this site. There is a breeder/importer by the name of Heppner Discus, Heps Discus, that appears to be a dishonest and unscrupolous seller, http://www.aquabid.com/forum/forum.cgi?action=forum&item=1122498687&category=cafe
One of the major benefits of this site has been to learn about discus. Obviously, part of this learning includes where to go to get quality discus specimens from reputable sources. This site has done an excellent job of allowing ONLY top-quality importers/breeders to advertise on the site. In my opinion we should continue to demand that only top quality sellers advertise here.
Kudos to Al for keeping this site free of unsavory sorts..........

Don

HOLY SMOKES!!! Yipes!!! :shocked::shocked::shocked::shocked:
I'm in complete shock! I really had no idea it was this serious. I was a one time or two time buyer from the seller. :confused:

Hosting the private SimplyDiscus Auctions with reputable professional breeders won't be such a bad idea and keeping a feedback summary too is an excellent idea ... only to prevent "fowl" sellers/dealers. The bad thing about this is that a newbie seller may come in and not be able to "toe-in-line" with heavy pros out here.

Thanks for pointing to the article, Don. Darn... that is such a shame. I'm stunned for sure. Makes me wanna roll out of here. I stopped using AB for a while now because I'm finding too many "fowl and fake sellers" out there. :(

April

08-06-2005, 01:29 AM

yeppers. don is right. better to have less banners and less members and also less problems..and less dogpiles like what i just read on that post don showed. soon we will be in the dogpile battling along with the rest. also someone else said bigger isnt always better.
if auctions..maybe only auctions via sponsors and screened people. not just anyone..or we will be no different than aquabid.
ebays feedback is good..depending on how hard it would be to set up a feedback forum. i have no idea on the workings of setting up forums etc.

KIWI13

08-06-2005, 04:57 AM

Well I would like to confirm what most people have already stated.

Sponsor section works the best the way it is. Unwanted comments ( good or bad) just fill up the thread and we loose sight of the product for sale.

Maybe a comments section or like funky fish said a rating for sponsors is much better.

Chat, is good and bad cause things can get out of hand rapidly. If you got the manpower to moderate it then Bravo. Go for it. If not your asking for trouble cause chat attracts the arguementitive type alot and we all know what that leads too.

Banners, well I agree that everyone willign to pay for one should get one BUT I would research into their backgrounds. Simply discus would not want to be advertising bad breeders or sellers who are know as rip off's. THis can under-rate our site which has a reputation to hold on to.

A select few sponsors with good reps is alot more valuable than a million cut throats.

The winning criteria on all Simply sites ar the team of moderators. I know first off that Simply Cichilds has a bang up team that works like a well oiled machine and here on SD I have noticed the same. Hats off to the Mods on here too for keepin it clean and helpful and I have come to know a few of you well. I think if chat is bought on then certain mods need to be designated to chat room duties only cause that is a handfull in itself.

Well thats my bit. If I think of more I'll give ya a buzz Al and irritate you as usual :p

Jas ;)

deseyered

08-06-2005, 05:58 PM

Hi Everyone

I know I don't post much on this website. Right now I have 3 little discus.. well 2 have grown to about 4 inches. I purchased them from a store in Anaheim, Ca. They have quite a selection of fish. Now, I'm not from Anaheim. I drive there to work. I found them through the retailer reviews at www.cichlid-forum.com where I've become a moderator.

As a new person looking at discus, it's hard to figure out who is on the up n up. I've only talked to a couple of people. I had talked to a breeder about purchasing some discus. I found out before I bought any fish from him that his reputation was not the best. I've had a few people privately help me by steering me away from unscrupulous sellers like the one in the post here. A review section like the one that Cichlid-Forum.com offers is what is called for. In fact it might be easiest if the breeders & sellers were listed at cichlid-forum because then Simply Discus would take no responsibility for any of the reviews offered.

I noticed that Jack Wattley is listed there, however not many other discus breeders/ sellers. The review section at cichlid forum is for all cichlid breeders, not just africans etc. If discus people went over and submitted different breeders/sellers and reviewed them at cichlid-forum.com then it would be easy for anyone needing to post reviews to go over to that section and post their positive or negative ratings. It would be a place to send potential Discus owners to look at the reviews of the different breeders/sellers.

If everyone here did their posting there, this site could concentrate on what it does best: Talk About Discus. I know that eric and the guys that run the cichlid forum would have no problem including discus breeders there. It would also be a good place for you to all put your 2 cents in about the different breeders that are out there.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/retailer_index.php

If that isn't really something that the site wants to do, then perhaps setting up something like this review section. All reviews are done by members for other members.

If people here are worried about whether or not this would be detrimental to SimplyDiscus, I'd like to point out that Discus does not have it's own forum there and in fact the people managing the site have made it clear that Discus are discussed elsewhere with more knowledgable people. In fact, I found a site to discuss Frontosas in more depth by following a link from Cichlid Forum. I still sit as a moderator at cichlid forum however I find myself posting more frequently at the Frontosa Forums. Cichlid Forums can and should be used as a wonderful resource for all Cichlid Lovers... even Discus people!

deseyered

08-06-2005, 06:33 PM

After reading that thread at aquabid regarding Hep and after some of the private conversations I've had with other discus people... I really really recommend getting the discus breeders up on a review section. It seems that maybe a common problem is that some discus breeders will rip off newbies in a heartbeat with fish that are substandard. Reviews tend to prevent that kind of thing.

Make sure you read my previous response on page 2 regarding the changes.

Don_Lee

08-06-2005, 06:59 PM

This site provides breeders/importers that people can count on, I would not hesitate to buy from any of the sellers that are sponsors here. I believe that the sponsors here are the gold standard......
As far as chat goes, we never had argumentative problems on chat. Most of us were just there for some fun, and we had a great time. I miss the chat days, it is a way to really get to know some of the people on the board.

Don

deseyered

08-06-2005, 07:27 PM

I have to be honest and disagree with that statement.

It does provide breeders and importers. I see that Al does everything he can to weed out the substandard people from his sponsor list. However, I've learned through some people that post here and other places that I still have to be careful because I might not end up with fish worth the price I paid because some breeders will only sell their good fish to their friends and not a newbie like myself. They will sell substandard fish to a newbie unless you tell them you will be posting pictures of the fish online here. Why should I have to post pictures to ensure that a seller is not going to sell me substandard discus?

Elcid

08-06-2005, 09:16 PM

Hi Al:

Ur doing many things right on Simply and thanks for that. We "WANT TO BE PROTECTED" not only from unscrupulous sellers but also from buyers that generate too much negativity which makes me "DEPRESSED ABOUT THE HOBBY" I appreciate your "IRON HAND" in banning people for "UNETHICAL MISSCONDUCT"

I only have one complaint: After reading many old posts I feel that people are just tired of posting. Tired of discussions, tired to express their opinion, tired or being critisized, and just tired of saying the same thing over and over again. So I believe that YOU must do something to bring the same enthusiasm that you had when you first started back to Simply. I hope the changes you are thinking about will encourage all those that are discus experts to have regular discussions on each of the topic areas with us "non experts" It would be great if you could spearhead that and maybe start the discussion each month on a variety of topics.

On the topic of Banners and Site Sponsers, I think it's a financial decision that you have to make. Maybe you should allow everyone to have but have strict policy on what would cause these people to loose their banner and their money :).....I'm sure you are not thinking of allowing "KNOWN BADBOYS" back but giving all newcomers a fair chance.

take care,
Sandeep

deseyered

08-07-2005, 12:52 AM

I appreciate Al's iron hand. However, I still think the best way is via unsolicited reviews. The cichlid importers on Cichlid-forum go out of their way to make everyone's transactions positive. I haven't had a bad transaction yet. In fact I've found that I do best asking what they'll take for the fish. They always give me a deal and I always have positive things to say about them on the reviews. You'll notice that those breeders/importers who give poor customer service and poor fish get bad reviews. These guys don't stay in business long. They tend to lose business. Those that work their tails off get good reviews and more referrals off that review section than anywhere else. The advertising only points out who they are, it's the reviews that show what kind of businessmen they are...

I do want to add that I've found most of the members like Carol Roberts are willing to help out. In fact a bunch of people jumped in when I made my first post to help me figure out what I should do with my desire to have some Discus. I think that the only thing that might improve the site is if you added more Discus centric articles on a monthly basis. There are many more facets on fish keeping. I've read the articles and I still need more information. I think bumping up the stakes on these articles will help the site. Maybe you could give some of the breeders a little ad time for a great article?

Spices

08-07-2005, 01:42 AM

I like the idea of having the connection, deseyered, in networking several forums to the threads where buyers and hobbiests can read off names of bad fish purchases from sellers who are naughty. However, there is a risk at doing such. Litigations can be easily brewed and things can really get imploded like a vacuum. What SimplyDiscus is today should remain an educational tool with loads of information. We do more (in networking as you like), may involve in serious litigious mode-de-operandum.

I stick to fun stuff... Bring chat in if you like, post pictures of buyers' new discus, announce events, have a birthday celebration and gift giving (provided with everyone's cooperation in submitting proof of age)... get to know each other better. That's a network I'd like to see. Crossing my 75-gallon tank over to someone in the state of NM, and receiving a 100-gallon tank from the state of LA... stuff like that is a load of fun. I like that idea. Helping hands..uniting the discus hands.

We all can be vunerable to disputes (occasionally). I can easily mistaken a fish ailment (done so many times already) and accuse the seller, which I don't like to do and I refrain from doing so. That's what this Board is about...I can go online to SD and find my solutions and get my problems resolved almost instantaneously.

Well... I have no more ideas but just that for now.

Good nightie... *A* :sleep:

deseyered

08-07-2005, 01:46 AM

Actually cichlid forum has a disclaimer that covers them legally. Cichlid-Forum.com is very large. They have advertising deals with Tropical Fish Hobbiest and Marineland, Seachem etc.. They aren't in a position to get in trouble. The disclaimer is very specific, the opinions of the individuals do not represent the opinions of Cichlid-forum.com.

And I did say that SimplyDiscus could just encourage people to use the reviews at cichlid-forum.com to report good and bad transactions for different companies. Then.. Simplydiscus doesn't have any responsibility.

lesley

08-07-2005, 03:44 AM

Hi Al,

Firstly I think that you must make the decision based on how much it costs to run this site! If you are going to allow anyone in though, please have a disclaimer!!

Ideally, the advertisers here would be reputable sellers that a newcomer can go to and get healthy reasonable stock, not necessarily show winners.

An area to post your concerns, although allowing some disgruntled people in would allow the discerning buyer to sift through and decide for themselves whether or not the poster sounded like a troublemaker and if someone only has a couple of really bad ones against lots of not so good for someone else, I would be heading for the seller with the couple of complaints and sussing out the seller and the situation for myself.

The main thing is that Simply keeps going and helps people.

crimson cross

08-07-2005, 02:52 PM

Do keep in mind that any "good" sponsor can also turn "bad" in the future. So it really makes no sense to try and screen the good ones now and have a sponsor in your site that is "bad" later...you will be back to square one.
I would suggest that you let anyone and everyone who wants to be a sponsor have a go at it. Let the collective wisdom of the members decide on their actions and policies. If they are good enough then they will survive but if they are fly-by-night operations, then, hopefully the members here will take them down real fast...
On as side note, your "screening" techniques could also be bias or flawed so how can you be sure that the "screeners" are doing the "right " thing?

Prevention is not the answer, education is...

Just my 2 operculums worth.

alpine

08-07-2005, 06:33 PM

I tell you. This is my favorite Forum. Most likely Al's way of doing things have something to do with how things work here. You go to any establishment and the ownership or management is reflected in the experience you have .

Now , I really would like to have a Way or Place so people could voice their experiences with vendors in a way that is safe of liability to the ownership of the forum. Don Lee expressed that all the sponsors in this Forum are sound in character and fairness to customers...well I can tell you that is not so.. and I base that on my experience. I would have liked to share that experience with others that like me are new to the hobby and looking for the right breeder or vendor to stock their tanks with.

Aside from that, I really believe this forum has a taste and character of its own and I would not want to see that terribly compromised.

respectfully,

roberto munoz.

Spices

08-08-2005, 11:12 AM

Disclaimers are as good as the claims itself. They may be used in the litigious arena but then again may not. The point is that what is said publicly may not necessarily be brought up on a lawsuit but how it is presented may. Example in mind, the Pet Store owner in Long Island who pressed charges against a forum public writer. Although the case was not proven on behalf of the defendant, the petitioner won the case in a defamation of character. :confused:

So, therefore, I agree that while SD is an educational tool and an investment for hobbiest and pros alike, I think it all depends on Al and his feelings on how far does he want to go into developing this forum in a most modern and fair venture.

We can do away with posting words and use only a 5 point star as an indicator of bad business deals. Just an :idea:

And, Al, you do deserve a lot of credit for putting up a very well made forum. I too (like Roberto and others) enjoy this forum a lot. Keep up with the fine program. :thumbsup:

Angie

Don_Lee

08-08-2005, 11:34 AM

I apologize if I was incorrect in stating that all of the breeders/sponsors here are top quality. I honestly would be surprised to learn that there are problems with some, but anything is possible. The issue of a rating system is a tough one, and I am afraid it could really turn into a can of worms if it was not initiated with a very sound structure and plan behind it.

Don

deseyered

08-08-2005, 12:33 PM

I think I stated before that SimplyDiscus doesn't have to support the ratings system or be responsible for what is said there. Just go over and submit your favorite breeder/importer (after looking) for the review section. Then put your 2 cents in about your experience with them.

The good cichlid importers even encourage their customers to go over and post a review for them. It really helps when you're purchasing cichlids to check the reviews at cichlid-forum.com. I check out every breeder/importer I use. It makes my choices very easy. You can use your comments to briefly describe the problem. I believe the ratings can be disputed and changed. It's very similar to what you find at aquabid, ebay etc.. and they haven't been sued over it. I don't see the problem.

PS: I just noticed that a few of the sponsors are already there in the reviews section.... You guys are letting that resource go to waste by not using it. Support your favorites!!!

brewmaster15

08-08-2005, 01:47 PM

deseyered,

One thing that I won't do is formally endorse another forum... I have done so in the past and was not pleased with the way it turned out. Nothing against your forum... I don't know the criteria your forum uses to prevent people from posting under an alias, when I went there I saw the reviews by Alias and that is a concern to me.. It may not be a concern in a general forum but I have seen too many cases where discus people have posted under an alias to slam others. There is an element to a discus community that is different than a general forum..Its hard to express but I would guess it similar to whats found in a beta forum, pleco forum etc...Its a small world with a long memory.

Support your favorites!!! Thats also part of the problem. pals promoting pals can skew an image. I have seen it done and done it unintentionally myself.

Thanks for sharing what your site does though. I'll consider what you have said in favor of that system.

Members here are welcome to use whatever forum they want to get their info, but if I do anything in terms of reviews, It will be on Simply or a sister site designed for that purpose. Something I am strongly leaning towards.

Iron handed? I was hoping to have looked more as gentle but firm :)LOL

Phil,
On as side note, your "screening" techniques could also be bias or flawed so how can you be sure that the "screeners" are doing the "right " thing? I can't and admit it is biased on my part. I am the screener. I listen as best I can to what the forum tells me about their transactions... and invariable if someone gets sick fish I hear about or if someone gets bad fish..I see the picture...Its not perfect though.

So I believe that YOU must do something to bring the same enthusiasm that you had when you first started back to Simply. I hope the changes you are thinking about will encourage all those that are discus experts to have regular discussions on each of the topic areas with us "non experts" It would be great if you could spearhead that and maybe start the discussion each month on a variety of topics. I'm trying :)

-al

deseyered

08-08-2005, 06:34 PM

2 things:

I don't own cichlid-forum.com I am a member and was invited to moderate the chatroom. I am a web developer/ programmer that teaches web design, ecommerce etc.. I fully understand the dynamics of a community website. Cichlid-forum.com has impressed me as much as Amazon.com has impressed the entire web development industry.

It saddens me to learn that Discus breeders would have such poor ethics as to do some of the things I've heard about and you've mentioned that they would do. It's pretty sad to also learn from friends that they left the Discus hobby because of these unethical things. It only serves to lessen the number of people willing to own discus other than the pet store visitors who just want a pretty fish that may or may not survive.

I've never seen or heard of anything like that with the Cichlid hobby industry that cichlid-forum.com supports. Yes there are disputes, I occassionally have to play referree to that in the chatroom. And yes, some of the importers/breeders have their differences but they have never used such underhanded tactics against each other. I've never once heard of anyone going out of their way to corrupt the business of another or pad their rating via the reviews.

KIWI13

08-09-2005, 03:19 AM

Well discus arent like you other cichlids. The reason this business is the way it is , is because your dealing with one of the most expensive fish in the hobby. Plus its a fish where quality plays an important role in the pricing and good quality = good price.anyway I am not here to defend the ethics or lack of it in the business. I wanted to just say that people promoting friends can shadow the good breeders and can also scar the reputation of a good breeder.
At the most, if there was a comments section set up, it woudl group all the comments together and someone wanting to buy can read up on a large volume of comments before investing.
The reality is that today, people post their comments anyway. We have em in the photo gallery most often when people post pics of their new fish. So there is already a level of promotion for breeders on here.

Oh and on a totally different subject:

Don, I have been reading the stuff that has been goin on between Mike hepsdiscus and ronbear over at aquabid because it was brought to our notice in the mods section at S.C. and I agree he was unprofessional in the way he treated ron but I think alot could have been resolved if Ron just posted the pics of the fish he claimed to have taken. Ofcourse a picture is worth a thousand words and in this case a thousand words less on this subject would have been a welcomed sight. LOL.

This incident is precisely what needs to be avoided and breeders like this need to be kept at arms length.

JAS ;)

deseyered

08-09-2005, 09:50 AM

JAS

Cichlids can be just as expensive. My Moba Front colony cost me nearly $2000.00 and there are only 13 fish in it. As for quality, well wild caught fish tend to be highly prized because they come directly from the lakes. However, when looking at farm raised fish, hobbiest do like a good colored S. fryeri. I've seen them with bars on them which is NOT a good quality. I have 2 that I bought from a pet store and don't know their parentage but they are very good quality. Also knowing where the fish was originally collected in the lakes is also a good sign of quality. Some of the Petros cost about $200 each, and you REALLY can't just buy a couple because of extreme aggression from them. They need a group minimum of 6.. preferrably 10-16 are best. Not to mention tank sizes.

There is a Petro sp. red from Bulu Pt that I want really badly. Each fish, for the importer to make any $$$ on them.. would be $300 each. It is a gorgeous fish, fire engine red on the males. But 6 fish at $300 each.. is a lotta cash to pay for a fish that might kill each other off.

KIWI13

08-09-2005, 10:01 AM

Well thats why I mentioned they were one of the most expensive and not the most expensive. I am aware of the prices on Frontosa's and alot of other cichlids and I do not dispute that fact. Like I said before, I am not making excuses either for the ethics or the lack of it in the hobby. Then again I think prices are different in different countries. Over here in France I can buy some frontosa's for less than what I would pay for good quality discus.

anyway I think we are straying from the subject which is how can we contribute to improving this site.....

any suggestions anyone ???

kaceyo

08-09-2005, 10:24 AM

I don't think price has much to do with these problems or even quality. I think it's the variation within a so called "strain" and the fact that they aren't realy a strain at all. When you buy African Cichlids you know what they should look like within a fairly narrow range of parameters. The quality issue is more clearly understood. With discus when you order a particuler type there is an extremelywide range of possibilities you might get. Quality of health and form are just a part of the whole. Discus not breeding true is a big part of it too. There is just alot more room for someone to slip in a sub-standard (because there is no standard) fish and, unfortunetly, charge you for a top grade fish. "Well, it was Gold Leopard when I bagged it"

Kacey

P.S. I change my vote to keeping the banner system as is!

deseyered

08-09-2005, 11:09 AM

Whatever the issue is, apparently there is one within the Discus Hobby. I can get Burundi front fry all day at $5 each. Depends on what you want. The question isn't really that, and getting a fish that breeds true well no breeder can 100% guarantee that to happen. It's a chance that everyone who buys a fish has to take.

What we are really talking about here is an issue of policing the ranks of Discus breeders/sellers. I told you guys about Cichlid-Forum.com which is huge. Cichlid hobbiest all over the world find that site to be a tremendous asset. Through it, we find niche forums like Cyphos.com for frontosas. Cichlid-forum.com is heavily influenced by their chairman. It's policied for family oriented content. The reviews are put there as a service for the members and guests. It has actually become a selling point for some importers. Is there a possibility of a review being biased or blatantly a slam... yes but we all know that if anyone was ever caught doing something unethical... it would come to light as the reviews can be changed and importers can recognize who put the review next to their business.

The real question at issue is "Who's policing the Discus Breeders/Importers if they won't be ethical?" and that may not be something Al is prepared to do by himself. I realise he is doing the best he can, but is it his job as a forum administrator/ chair to do it? I think we're way past the point of "Why aren't the breeders/importers doing it?"
While Al is doing the best job he can by sifting out the sponsors, we've established that he has already missed some. For that matter, if he does that and responds to everyone's complaint, he may soon run out of sponsors.

I mentioned cichlid-forum's reviews partly because they would be unbiased in respect to the reviews. If any review was questioned and proven to be wrong, I'm sure that it would be deleted post haste. Really, if this isn't a viable response another way of policing the ethical behaviour of the breeders/importers should be found. Maybe it's the job of an organization like NADA to register breeders/importers with an agreement to be ethical that would give them a certain standard to live up to and could be lost if complaints were filed, investigated and found to be credible.

Al if you just want to improve the website.. I think more articles, maybe a tanks section and the chatroom would be beneficial. A photo contest is always nice. I'm sure that people here would love to see the incredible photos that are possible.

Also another way to up the income of the site is to use a service like cafepress.com where you can actually use photos with permission on different products like T-shirts etc. It doesn't cost anything and I think everyone would enjoy something like a calendar or poster of photos of some nice discus.

I've used cichlid-forum.com as an example of how to create a content/community website to the courses I teach online about site development. I train online using voice over IP with application sharing etc. My students are generally from all over the world. I don't pick websites to share with my students that don't have merit. CF is well managed and extraordinary compared to other cichlid related websites. I believe you should investigate what they have provided and think seriously about what they have done. You're already walking down that road with the articles and this forum.. closer than any other species forum within the cichlid hobby in general. In fact, a way to get more traffic would be to provide a few articles to cf with a byline of where they came from ... like brewmaster of simplydiscus.com ... People will come here.. they do it over at cyphos.com when Mark posts at cf within the frontosa forum with his signature pointed to cyphos.com. Just a thought.

oodi

08-09-2005, 11:45 AM

FYI...

For those interested in chat, it still exists... the link is in the upper right corner of this page:

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/index.shtml

Or, if you prefer to go direct:

http://www.simplydiscus.com/chat/index.html

Chat requires Java, so make sure your Java is updated... you can go here for that:

http://www.java.com/en/index.jsp

Judi
:)

deseyered

08-09-2005, 11:51 AM

That's very awesome Judi

What would be really neat is to schedule times for people to come in and discuss topics of importance. A great place to ask questions etc.

Spices

08-09-2005, 02:44 PM

Interesting thread to say the least.

THanks Judi for the links to chatroom. I never went in the chatroom before. A schedule should be "bannered" on its availability.

I'm not sure if Al is ready for such a huge challenge in board/forum-crossing. But it is a good idea to expand and great for any of us "fish-lovers" to further our knowledge.

Everyone here has touched base on the idea of "weeding out the bad breeders/sellers" but the problem still lies ahead in how are we going to deliver such a facet of information without having the possibilities of potential buyers and/or sellers returning to this site in incoqnito (using a different name handle).

Simply, the photo gallery is a splendid idea of show and tell.

What I really would like to see happen is another area in the forum which allows members to download a two minute video-clip (windows media file for example) of their fish/tank. Perhaps the breeders also can download a longer file of .wmf. Just a thought.

Al, I still wish you would consider the small fee I've suggested to you earlier (in subscribing to this forum on an annual basis). Nothing in this world is free and a helping hand is what we all need. ALL OF US NEED. :)

ang

KIWI13

08-10-2005, 02:40 AM

deseyered

08-10-2005, 04:22 AM

LOL Angie, I knew you would bring up the video bit , hence I said nothin :p I still have yours and watch it from time to time. Really cool.

Well I think it is impossible to police the breeders and importers. I don't think NADA or any other hobbyist organisation has the capbility to do so . Or maybe I am wrong here. Maybe Carol Roberts can shed some light on NADA's jurisdiction. But I highly doubt that they can control quality on an ethical ground with discus breeders and even more unlikely with importers. What your asking for is the application of laws and this woudl have to be done by the ministry of fisheries.

So what you are saying is that it's ok that the Discus Hobby will see more people leave because they don't like the ethics within it?

Yes I know Mark of Cyphos well, he is a mod on simply cichlids and I guess as administrator of his site he chooses to walk down that road of linking forums. Knowing Al, I don't honestly think he has the time to hop on to any other forums to post considering that Simply Discus and its sister sites are already a handfull.

It doesn't have to be Al doing the posting.

deseyered, you have some good ideas about the t-shirts and that has been done here, maybe its time to do it again. I am aware that cichlid-forum is a huge site with vast resources but I for one believe that Simply Discus is not trying to compete to be the biggest. I think Simply Discus is doing great the way we are considering that at any given minute there is an average of atleast 10 members online and numerous guests. People find us simply cause we are second to none when it comes to Discus and I am failing to se the point in linking up to any other forums. You do a search on any search engine and you find us on top so I would'nt worry too much. People know how to find us and once they do they seldomly tend to leave. I am a good example.

Does anyone who doesn't know about Simply Discus search for "Simply Discus"?

Nope.. they search for "Discus" and guess what.. it's nowhere to be found. (And I searched on google, yahoo, excite, altavista etc.. etc..) And that is a darn shame because the site is very informative with an incredible group of people supporting the discus hobby. (I did find cichlid-forum on the first SERP (Search Engine Results Page) when I searched for "discus cichlid")

SEO = Search Engine Optimization .. along with Web Marketing. Part of Search Engine Optimization is done through linking. Cichlid-forum is huge, I believe I've seen you post over there. Because it is so large and so visible on the search engines.. it's an optimal way to build traffic. Search engines give links from it a higher importance when running the ranking algorhythms.

You're assumption that people know how to find SimplyDiscus is a bit naive. I teach programmers and webmasters who sometimes make me smack myself on the head because of the things they don't know how to do on the internet. I've been on the internet for 10 years and I still find things I wish I'd found earlier. I only stumbled onto SimplyDiscus by accident.. just another discus site in a list of discus sites.

TBH.. if you think 10 people and some guests at any one time is a lot ... you're wrong. It is really a pitiful amount of the people in the world who are interested in Discus. Do you honestly think that there are only about 5000 people in the world interested in Discus???? If so.. I guess the full time breeders should give up now.. they'll never support themselves that way. For that matter the part timers should give up too.. they'll quickly overwhelm the demand.

If the site had more registered users, Al could probably get more sponsors willing to use more of their advertising budget to help him with his website. I'm sure we all agree that Al deserves more help.

As for sister sites.. I don't think that is the way to go. Sister sites split your attention and focus from the real goal which in a community site is to build a large community that supports itself and the content. It becomes what is known as a collective intelligence.

One other point on the yearly fee. Unless this site is a LOT larger.. it will never work. It will inevitably drive potential members away from the site. Most people are doing this as a hobby. There are more forums out there with other people who have some knowledge about Discus.

brewmaster15

08-10-2005, 07:27 AM

Hi all,
Okay time for me to redirect this thread. I appreciate everyones thoughts here and they have given me much to think on.

One thing I would like to make clear is we don't want to be the biggest discus site, we want to be the Best resource for Discus information. This site has a homey feel to it that many people value, I don't want to ever sacrifice that "Good to be home" feeling. Part of this forums benefit to the hobby is besides being informative it promotes a community atmosphere. I do recognize though that in order to help people, they must be able to find you...so I do thank deseyered for the suggestions to help with that.

I would like to move away from site finances as well. I appreciate everyones concern here, but I am more interested in the topics I listed in the beginning of this thread. For the time being I have a donation banner on the site for anyone to donate from that is concerned about the site... http://www.simplydiscus.com/donate/index.html, we sell t-shirts and mercahndise from time to time, and we have sponsors and banner holders as well as my financial committment to the site. Lets leave it at that for now, I have other thoughts on this that can be discussed another time.

I would like to move away from The feedback discussion now unless others that have not voiced their opinion want to do so. I have decided to pursue a system for this site, and I think I have a pretty fair one in mind. I will be setting this up as soon as I can and then take everyones opinions on this system. One thing that I will be using the system for is as part of my criteria in decisions regarding potential sponsors and banner holders. This I hope will help reduce my subjective decisions. I will also use the feedback section as one of my criteria if I am considering removing a sponsor.

-al

Spices

08-10-2005, 12:19 PM

Cool going, Al. :thumbsup: We all look forward to a welcomed change.

*Angie*

deseyered

08-10-2005, 12:35 PM

Al

I am glad you're going to implement a feedback system. I think you'll find that with proper overseeing of the feedback that it will be an asset to the Discus community.

One of the things that I always liked about this site is it's articles. People really learn a lot from a well written article. It also works well in the Search Engines to have good articles listed. I've come to this site off and on for the last year as I've contemplated Discus. While the articles are great, I know I still have questions and information I'd like to see there. I encourage you to seek out articles written by the experienced discus hobbiest and breeders. Let the forums feed what types of articles should be written. Even breeding logs are useful for people just trying to breed their first pair.

I really need to see a good article that shows pictures and compares good discus shapes with bad discus shapes. I think an article of that type is a long time coming. Carol ... I think it was Carol .... posted some nice pictures from the ACA that the judges used to base their judging standards on.

I'd also like to see something here that shows pictures of the different strains and colors of discus. I still don't know what's out there.

FischAutoTechGarten

09-10-2005, 09:52 PM

I don't think you'll succeed in implementing any type of rating or feedback system that is fair handed. You'll get white trash and empty barrels promoting their buddy of the week and defaming the character of those for whom they have a personal vendetta.

Re-inforcing positive behavior with positive feedback is the best way.

Mughal

10-23-2005, 07:34 PM

Al!

I understand you want to be the best but not the biggest, but it would make the site better if there were MORE people. More people = more communication

There may be things out there that work better than what Even yourself know to be true, we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we didn't get more people to come and be active in the site.

Kindredspirit

10-23-2005, 08:45 PM

Well...my two cents...........

I think this site is awesome and very simple to use. DAAH has a Buyer Feedback System and it is very interesting to read however, a business can not please everyone, someone, somewhere will be disappointed, and an upset customer will post EVERYWHERE, then there goes someone's rep, unless he is well liked and respected in the community~

Al, is right when he says this place has a 'homey' feeling to it! I have learned so much here and everyone is fun, nice and very helpful~

I do not know if it is necessary to have oodles of people here or if that is the main objective, i do know why fix something if it isnt broke? But i do not see the whole picture i am sure~To ask opinions here, you will get 101 answers!

Only the ones that have the Discus in their heart and not their pocket, will know how to proceed~

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_3_15.gif

IMO~

Marie~

White Worm

11-11-2005, 08:32 PM

I am one of the newer member of simply discus (Oct 05). I never realized that there were so many others out there who have a passion as crazy as mine and even more so in some cases. The information provided from this sight and its members is very valueable. When you have a problem, you just type to someone with a great reputation and they respond to help out. THANKS SIMPLY FOLKS!!!!! I cant wait to create a fish room

As far as banners, I know that it gets irritating when you have to sift through numerous sites. You can open it to anyone because they will get weeded out fairly quick here once word gets out. Just from reading most threads, I have found who the popular, trusted, experienced, friendly and wise people are

(Cary, Barb, Carol) Just to name a few.

(by the way, thanks for all the help with disease prevention with my discus Barb and Carol)

I know there are more but those have been the ones to jump out at me. I wish I would have done more research and waited to purchase my discus from the reputable breeders here because I have spent 100's of dollars on fair fish in lfs. Last and only shipment from majestic was another mediocre transaction. You do get what you pay for.

I tried the chat thing and there never is many people there. I don think many people use it. Its funner to read the threads and reply.

I'm always checking aquabid.com for good deals but that is also where I had my mediocre first experience with fish delivery. Kinda made me skiddish to try again. Overall, 10 out of 12 fish are healthy now and I will do my best to grow em up right. Auctions are fun as long as you get some quality sellers.

Buy, sell or trade is the best thread if you are looking for discus and those who have the money already know what breeders to go to for quality discus.

Sorry so long, and thanks again for everyones patience and understanding!

Mike (Mikscus, my wife thinks I'm discuscrazy :D :D :D :D