Breeding LSS or Ring Leopards

[Barb Newell]

To the breeders who breed these fish or those who can honestly answer my question, I'd really appreciate some feedback before breaking the bank and buying a large group of these fish.....

OK.... I am debating on spending a LOT of $$$ into some juvies in the hope of getting a pair of lss or rl's a year or two down the road -- they are very expensive!!!!!!!!!! and for me I run the risk of introducing disease from imported fish. JMO and personal experience.

I was told by a breeder that there are very few lss or ring leopards that actually come from a large spawn and that LARGE facilities are necessary to get any numbers of these fish, so if I was planning on breeding, better have a LOT of tanks, which at 35+ tanks... I don't have enough. Don't even come close. True or False.

If I were to purchase a group of LSS and/or Ring Leopards for breeding purposes (7 or 8 of each), and with some luck get a pair from each.... realistically what percentage of leopard snakeskins and ring leopards might I expect from a spawn of 200 or 250 fry?




Thanks, :)

Barb

[Andrew Soh]

Sorry Barb,

I thought this thread is talking about bloodworms...again...

Anyway.........................OK.... I am debating on sinking a LOT of $$$ into some juvies in the hope of getting a pair of lss or rl's a year or two down the road -- they are very expensive!!!!!!!!!!

I think it is not feasible to sink in tons of money to breed something that is already breeding in quantity in Asia now. You may feel it is expensive...and I do not have any doubt in your belief. But have you ask yourself whether the breeders in Asia are selling them expensively or...importers....

After growing them for a year or two and when you are about to sell the produce (in 2007)...someone imports them in and sell @ US$35....(is that expensive??) and you have to compete lower than that price...is it worth...with possible hiccaps along the way to the foot of your 'rainbow'....to realise that rainbow is after all a myth?


and for me I run the risk of introducing disease from imported fish. JMO and personal experience.

Disease is the same as anywhere else in the world. You just have to be careful. Disease is treatable...even virus.........but steriod feeding to enhance the spots results in uncontrollable bloating of the belly, is difficult to reverse and generally leads to mortality.

Not all are lost....there are still breeders out there that are personally breeding good quality and healthy discus.

If I were to purchase a group of LSS and/or Ring Leopards for breeding purposes (7 or 8 of each), and with some luck get a pair from each....

Barb, don't be cheap....get discus that are bigger...say at least 4 ins and select the gender....you will get 99% accuracy....not by chance and can dismiss the law of probability. Instead of getting 200 2ins fry where the real good perfect rings could be less than 1 percent if not zero, use this money to buy a real good ringed-discus pair.......by now you should know how to select gender...no???? I am so sad..you don't have my book???......

If well patterned adult discus is what hobbyists desire, importers have to bring in very high quality discus. If importers still bring in junk, God bless them...they will have to have fried discus for dinner everyday as the junks are not moving out.

You know I wrote in my book on selection of quality.....sorry, I have to apology to importers all over the world...even in USA....I need to tell the truth :( After having read my book, you may ask yourself why I bought that stupid, ugly discus in the first place......sorry....)

I'm wondering if it is worth the investment $$$ for breeding purposes with limited growout tank space and limited funds.

I don't know......I would never do it.........You may lose out to those dealers that buy and sell....less risk.........

Let me tell you a little story......there is a tall and handsome guy in Hong Kong with a mouth that is louder than his height............my friend..he!he! who was keeping a lot of Albino discus..(a few hundreds of Adults), Intermediates... and a lot of albino babies of different sizes of 3 to 4 inches. I told him to sell them...at least sell it to me. He rejected my offer and claimed that he want to produce much more before he is willing to sell globally and he is so proud...he doesn't want to sell cheap. Gradually, his stock increased tremedously. Setup even more tanks and expanded his hatchery.

One day, about 9 months down the road, an epidemic stuck and killed 100% of his discus. I asked him why didn't he tell me...maybe I can fly over to help? He is too proud a man who believes he knows everything and if he doesn't, nobody else does...not even Andrew Soh...he!he!..maybe he is right.....He lose everthing...how sad...don't know where he hides his pride....


The best plan is to setup some tanks and wait for the right time to bring in this strain. There are many people you can buy from in Singapore and Malaysia or even US importers....if quality is their priority...not just talk.

The only reason you can find, to invest in big hatchery, is when you have a strain, a very unique one that the whole world doesn't have...keep quiet....increase production...and finally push at high price into the world market. New and mutated strain....that is the direction...and that is not impossible...with so many existing mutants in the hands of hobbyists.


Warmest regards,
Andrew :angel:

[Elcid]

Hi Barb:

When you buy discus you can't think logically. Even Prada comes out with new styles every year :o Like every discus businessman or woman you have to decide whether there are a sufficient number of irrational illogical buyers to justify ur initial investment and ur likelihood of success.

As for your question, I had asked this same question to David Lim when I purchased my GLSSi (after purchasing them). I trust that David does not mind me revealing this info. Here's his answer below:

Hi Sandeep,

Its correct that YC is PB based.

As for GLSSi, it not a PB as it'll never have any black at any point of time. Also, the stress bars are never as prominent as LSS. This is the result of the middle; LSS pattern/ spots on a PB body base without any black. GLSSi had got both PB and LSS bloodline. Therefore, if you were to inbreed, you'll get a small percentage of PB (depend on individual fish), LSS Leopards, and the GLi and GLSSi. The % will be about 5-10% PB, 25% LSS, 25% L, 20%GLi and 10-15% GLSSi. This is only base on my own breeding with my own stocks. Therefore, it may differ.

GLSSi definitely got no PB. You can try placing them under direct sunlight and thy'll never produce black specks not even black tail or fins.

HTH.

David

I would suggest that rather than focus on the profit aspect, think of all the possibilities and the joy of finding out :)

take care,
Sandeep
----- Original

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi Barb,
I ran about 30 tanks to get a good selection of LSS. In each tank was a batch of LSS. The first 3 batches I wanted to fine out what were the color morphs
coming out the the 8 bars, so these were raised up to semi adults 4 inchers,
they were mostly turquoise, broken turquoise lines, browns, solid Red Alencer,
greens, and rsg. The 8 bar Discus were about 50 percent of a batch, sold
as turquoise, browns and etc.
The 14 bar Discus were Solid Red, semistriated reds, striated red snake,
spotted without striations, and LSS of different grades.
The percentage of LSS would be about 15 percent, the selective grade
would be 5 percent. The 2nd generation prove to have a larger percentage
of LSS only by breeding the selective graded but the second generation i
prove to be more weaker then the first generation.
Recently the price of these type of Discus has drop to almost half the price, good for the buyers but not for the breeders.

cliff

[Elcid]

Hi Loonybin:

To clarify, this fish has PB gene but will never display the PB stress characteristic under any condition (pepper). When it's stressed it turns dark and faint bars appear. It can also turn dark depending on mood.

I'm not an expert but I had posed the same question to David and you have his direct answer above. Bottom line, it's Not a PB although it posesses PB genes :)

take care,
Sandeep

[Barb Newell]

Thanks everyone for the info. :) Many of my questions have been answered, appreciate the input.

Barb

[Elcid]

Hi LoonyBin:

I am told that this fish is an F1 product breeding a top quality Yellow Crystal Spotted with a top quality LSS.

Sorry for not answering ur Golden Question. Don't wanna get mixed up in that discussion :) I'm told by many that there is no Golden without PB gene....

take care,
Sandeep

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hi Barb,

Well I say It can be done If Your about quality + health. However You Must Find Good lines that are breeding High % Offspring to get you off to a good start. It will also be wise to use two good blood lines and start out by crossing the lines for F1 stock. I would do this because most spotted discus that are bought are allready into F3 Or higher. Now Good stock is out there and hard to find but not impossible IME.

Second You must also plan to set up many lines. Theses lines can be the same blood if needed or beter yet closely related or new blood. Theses lines must stay pure and carefully watched for size,color,shape,health + pattern during inbreeding and selection of future breeding stock.

My advise would be to carry a few different blood lines and cross them before you begin starting with F 1 fry. after success with good f1 spotted stock you then can begin line breeding. linebreeding means only inbreeding line A with line A and line B with line B This is done by breeding brother to sister or back crossing to father or mother. Each line must stay pure uless weakness is found. If so outcrossing to the other lines is needed so A line is Crossed with B Line Starting all over with F1 fry that will again be split into A,Bs and C lines. Most lines are inbreed up to 5 genarations F5 or more before the lines are outcrossed and best IME.

After you reached this goal you may lose some size and strength on theses lines from inbreeding. This is why it is wise to then out cross with Your other lines to make the new f1 lines prolific again!

You must also prepare Yourself with color enhancer's Etc... to help You bring out the blues and reds in theses brown based discus. The problem with brown base fish is they take the longest to color up so these methods are used to grade them faster instead of wasting space and $ on Throw back Turks and snakes Browns Etc.... that will always be present in Spotted Discus lines anyways at least for now.

Also remember that it is true Asia Breeders can raise the fish faster cheaper
and easer so their cost can be a challenge. But remember this! Good stock goes along way! And if You have the product and its good They will come and They will buy no matter if it cost more. So IMO you should have No problem staying in the game with spotted discus If You do Your homework and have the room.

Also Remember it Takes alot of Money to make a little Money breeding discus in the US! But who knows You might just Be the next new JACK WATTLEY
Best Wishes.

Hth Barb
Your Friend
Cary Gld!

[CARY_GLdiscus]

: )

[CARY_GLdiscus]

:)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

: )

[CARY_GLdiscus]

: )

[CARY_GLdiscus]

SORRY!

[CARY_GLdiscus]

: )

[Barb Newell]

Cary :) :), thanks for helping me out on this one, (I know you're busy this summer), great detailed information, great explanation. It sounds.... like quite a challenge but do-able for the right person.


Next Jack Wattley LMAO... that's you!!

Your fish are absolutely BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as always.
It won't be hard to decide where I'll buy my fish from, if I'm up to the challenge.

Let's see..... I'll take all of the ones in the pics :p

Barb

[crimson cross]

Wow, those look sweet, Cary. Are they yours???

Barb,
Try it, I think you can succeed...NA breeders need to do thier own thing and not solely rely on imports forever...Home bred is always better. Believe in yourself and you can succeed.
Just my two cents.

[Elcid]

Hi Cary:

Nice to see you posting again :) I keep saying again and again that I don't want to buy imports but what choice do I have!, let's hope ppl like youself and Barb will fill our needs for spotteds :)

take care,
Sandeep

[Barb Newell]

Hi Cary:

Nice to see you posting again

I threatened him :whip: :whip: JK

Barb

[Elcid]

Hi Barb:

If you could only force him to offer all his "show grade" 3" fish to forum members every month this hobby would become so much more enjoyable! :) It's nice to see large beauties like that but WHO CAN AFFORD?

take care,
Sandeep

[Barb Newell]

If you could only force him to offer all his "show grade" 3" fish to forum members every month this hobby would become so much more enjoyable!


We could try begging him !!!??? :confused: :confused:

What do you think Cary?

I'd settle for some more pics.

Barb :)

[turkis]

Hi Elcid,
Some pictures of the 3" fish.
Mario

[turkis]

Another one.

[turkis]

One more.

[Elcid]

Hey Mario:

Those fish are very nice, can you please post those in the Buy, Sell, Trade section of the forum :)

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Hey ROY:

You know who u are! Those are ur spotteds that Cary's posting arent' they??? You sold them to Cary?

Ha ha,

Take care,
Sandeep

[Barb Newell]

Mario, what beautiful fish!!!! I'll take those as well LOL :D Cross them with Cary's, see what I get.

Barb

[turkis]

Hi Barb,
It should be a very nice cross and I have to give them growth time.
Thanks
Mario

[allan_mark76]

Barb also remember that the immune system is VERY weak and they are prone to anything. Two years ago I had some high quality Spotted Eruptions from Wayne VIA Danny Ng at Discusfantasy. I had 12 of them. Separated the males from the females to get them as large as possible. I placed them all together and it was a breeding frenzy. I separated the pairs and was in the trial runs of breeding. Mind you these were 6 inches in diameter LSS. Well along the way I brought in some "NEW" fish and the plague wiped me out. What was interesting was the LSS took it the fastest and to the extreme. Right now I'm pondering in going the route you are taking, but alas if I was to do it again all my spotted strains would definately be on a seperate system in another room from my other strains just on the sheer possiblity of wiping out my spotted strains. Anyways right now I'm working with some RSG's who are hardier, but alas take a while to mature due to the inherint wild genes. Just remeber to start out with some nice stock and take care of them as you would your other discus.

JMHO

:antlers:

[chris allsop]

very nice fish!!

[zoids]

Sandeep,

You got very sharp eyes :D.

This is one of my favourite fish i have right now.

Roy

[zoids]

Some weblss juv that i have right now. Currently they are about 2.5".

[zoids]

Another

[zoids]

Last one :)

[turkis]

Hi Roy,
I have seen those pictures before and they are nice looking fish.
Mario

[Elcid]

Hey Roy:

How are you? You know, u've just gotta stop saving all the good fish for yourself and send us some :P

take care,
Sandeep

[turkis]

Hi Elcid,
Fly over there and take your pick, that's the easiest way.
Take lots of moola with you.
Mario

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Roy,

Nice fishes...Did I have some of them before???

Good to see you here, brother....and showing nice discus.

Proud of you , man :) :antlers:


Take care,
Andrew :angel:

[Elcid]

Hey Roy:

What do I have to do to make these look like those? :D


take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Hey Roy:

I probably can't afford any of those but how much for this one :o

take care,
Sandeep

[zoids]

Mario,

I think you saw the pictures of the bigger ones. The smaller guys are so consistant that they look identical to what the bigger ones were when they were young.

Sandeep,

There are some nice nice specimens in the USA right now as i type. Just look for "The Man" you know who i'm refering to right :).

Andrew,

The bigger ones you see posted earlier are from the back row right corner top tank. They are killer fishes right now. Yes, you got some of the 9 bar ring types if i'm not wrong. How are yours turning out. The ones i have now are showing signs of breeding. Drop by one day and see how they developed from the last you saw them.

Roy

[Elcid]

Hey Mario:

Ha ha, you thought of what I was thinking before I could even post it ;) Bud didn't Andrew at the beginning of this thread offer us these for $35? :)

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Hey Roy:

You mean Dan the Man? I thought he MIA?

take care,
Sandeep

[zoids]

Sandeep,

Just feed the fish BH mixed with asthaxanthin. I've got a few pairs of LSS at the moment. So depending on which line of fish you got, they might not look like the ones i've shown. The ones i've show are called Web LSS and not LSS. The spotting are finer and more compact than the normal LSS.

The fish shown is a "Golden Mosiac". The linage came from golden leopards but the juv "Golden Mosiac" turned out more patterned than spotted so i had to name them as such. That particular fish i'm keeping as it's from the 1st batch from the pair. I'm also monitoring the development of the fish at the moment.

Roy

[zoids]

Sandeep,

I mean Cary the Man.

Roy

[Elcid]

Hi Roy:

So finally Cary got some fish :), I hope he's going to post some pics and offer us some for sale?

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Hey Mario:

No need to go so far, Barb has the right ticket, if you beg enough you shall receive :):

Pics taken today:

[Elcid]

Another one:

[turkis]

Hey Mario:

Ha ha, you thought of what I was thinking before I could even post it ;) Bud didn't Andrew at the beginning of this thread offer us these for $35? :)

take care,
Sandeep

Hi Elcid,
What can you get for $35.00, nothing nowadays If you could get the quality of those discus for that amount I'll buy 100 right now.
I don't beg and have friends that are willing to help each other out.
Mario

[Elcid]

I don't know Mario:

I'm hoping Andrew is on to something? We just have to find out who this importer is :)

take care,
Sandeep


Sorry Barb,


After growing them for a year or two and when you are about to sell the produce (in 2007)...someone imports them in and sell @ US$35....(is that expensive??) and you have to compete lower than that price...is it worth...with possible hiccaps along the way to the foot of your 'rainbow'....to realise that rainbow is after all a myth?

Warmest regards,
Andrew :angel:

[turkis]

Hi Elcid,
I know what Andrew is talking about, I do agree with him but the quality is not the same at all, much inferior quality and sell them as this strain .Ha!Ha!
Mario

[Elcid]

Hey Mario:

I paid $85 retail for this fish and it's one of my favorites:

take care,
Sandeep

[turkis]

Hi Elcid,
It was downsized for a better look.
That's a nice looking fish and good luck with it.
Mario

[Elcid]

Hi Mario:

Thanks for downsizing it. It does look better smaller :)......You know what really amazes me about this fish is the genotype. It has so many colors in him the pic does not do justice. I bet it has atleast Turk, PB, LSS, RSG, WB, BD genes in him :) What a deal !

take care,
Sandeep