Buying a backup generator

[markwill]

I've been thinking about all the various options I'd need to consider if (when) we have a power outage. We get these pretty regularly (at least once per winter and probably twice on average - last year we had one that lasted 2 days and another for just over a day).

I am seriously considering buying a backup generator on the basis that while I would be addressing, at a stroke, the potential problems for my fish (I've spent about $600 on my fish alone in the last 3 months and around $1,000 on equipment - so this is is an investment worth protecting), I would ALSO provide for a more comfortable life for my family during these power cuts. So, it would be a pretty well leveraged purchased, as compared to addressing just the fish.

So, my question is whether anyone has any experience with buying a backup generator? I'm guessing that a natural gas generator may be the way to go but I'm somewhat new to this whole area. The Internet is my research tool :-) but I thought I'd ask here first to see what the factors to consider might be.

BTW, if possible, I'd be looking for a solution that is fully automated when power is lost - is that feasible or does that add a ton of cost?

I may be completely off-base here but would $3,000 or less be in the ballpark? I'd be happy be judicious with what equipment I'd need during a power cut (limit lights to one room, limited washing, no dishwasher, etc) but not to the extent that I make really inconvenient compromises.

Thoughts?

Mark

[RandalB]

Check Ebay... They have those 15KW Generac's in the $2000 range from time to time...

RandalB

[Greg Richardson]

Mark. I love Honda Generators. Mine starts up first pull almost every time.
Very quiet. I have mine about 40 ft from house and can barely hear it.
About 7 years old now.

You need an electrition.

Call ENC Electric. 206 869 7472.

Ask for Dean Gallegos if he doesn't answer.

Tell him I gave you his number. He can take care of you.
It's not cheap.

But if you plan on staying there awhile it's a lot nicer then I have it......... running cords in the house. LOL!

[markwill]

Check Ebay... They have those 15KW Generac's in the $2000 range from time to time...

RandalB
Thanks Randal. Are these of the type that are completely automatic? The hope is that I don't have to lift a finger in the event of a power outage - the thing just takes over. I ask because it's not 100% clear to me whether the "Automatic Transfer Switches" provide that capability with no loss of power at all or possibly with some downtime while the generator kicks in.

The other issue us noise - I get the sense that the natural gas ones are significantly quieter than the "portable" ones. Someone over the street from us has a generator and it could be heard from streets away (including very clearly inside our house). I don't want one of those :-)

Thanks.

Mark

[markwill]

Mark. I love Honda Generators. Mine starts up first pull almost every time.
Very quiet. I have mine about 40 ft from house and can barely hear it.
About 7 years old now.

You need an electrition.

Call ENC Electric. 206 869 7472.

Ask for Dean Gallegos if he doesn't answer.

Tell him I gave you his number. He can take care of you.
It's not cheap.

But if you plan on staying there awhile it's a lot nicer then I have it......... running cords in the house. LOL!
Thanks Greg. If I do go for this (still researching) I think I'll go the whole way and - assuming budget allows - will get an automatic generator (kicks on with no action on my part). One scenario I am eager to avoid (especially if i am goign to spend a bunch of money on this) is to be out for the day or away for a few days and come back to a cold or low oxygen tank, with the generator perfectly able to address the situation but waiting there ready to be started :-)

Thanks again.

Mark

[markwill]

Yikes - the cost of the generator itself doesn't seem TOO bad, but the installation costs are huge :-( I dropped by Home Depot yesterday, just to get some sense of what I'm looking at. They had a 12kw Generac which looked pretty good. It retailed fo $2600. Possibly within budget (or, rather, what I can realistically get past the wife!!). But they wanted an additional $1,400 to just INSTALL the thing. I understand there are potential permits required to get this installed, which presumably add some cost. But $1,400 seems like a heck of a lot.

Bummer!

Mark

[Greg Richardson]

Mark. You have HD taking a cut and then Electrition has to have his profit also.
That's why I'd go straight through electrition.
Buy your own generator eliminating install from them.
There is a dealership right in Woodinville where I got mine near on the road where they sell the Vans and use to have the Auction lot on the corner there. It's on that road. Just go a mile in either direction from the old auto auction intersection and you'll find it. They might do install also but realize they are taking a cut of the sub contractor. Honda Generators.

[tech4all]

Looking into UPS(Uninterruptible power supply) for computer, that might just address our need. I just thought of it while reading your post. It won't have power for everthing in the house, but enough for filter or pump.

[markwill]

Looking into UPS(Uninterruptible power supply) for computer, that might just address our need. I just thought of it while reading your post. It won't have power for everthing in the house, but enough for filter or pump.
Thanks for the message. There are two issues here.

First, it's not unusual for us to experience outages that exceed 1 day, which would render a UPS a non-starter (we've one that lasted 1 1/2 days and another that went into the third day). I've seen suggestions that auto-based "invertors" can help here but that would seem like an awful lot of hassle for such long outages.

The second issue is that I am not justifying this for the fish tank alone, although that is the catalyst for me considering a full-fledged generator. If I do get such equipment, I also happen to be able to sit in a warm, lit house and watch TV/listen to radio, etc, etc while all around me are getting cold and carrying candles around :-) I may not do this but, if I do, it's for the overall benefits, not just the fish tank.

Thanks.

Mark

[RandalB]

Mark,
Grab your local yellow pages and start calling local electricians for estimates for installing. You'll find guys that do side jobs when not busy for much cheaper than that. I had a service upgrade/Panel move done to my house that took 3 Electricians 2 days to do and It cost $1500 INCLUDING parts from a local electrical contractor just because I agreed to let them do the work on a weekend and offered to pay cash.

Shop around on the install but make sure you stipulate you want a permit pulled for the job to avoid sloppy work. Also make sure they are licensed and insured.

The HomeD Generarcs are the ones I'm talking about.

Finally, discuss the merits of being the only ones in the area with a whole house backup if the power fails. Warm House in the winter, cool in summer, helping the neighbors in their time of need, never oversleeping for work if the power goes out overnight, etc while downplaying the fish end of things. That's how I got the boss to approve the Tankless Hot Water Heater project...

HTH,
RandalB

[markwill]

Call ENC Electric. 206 869 7472.
Ask for Dean Gallegos if he doesn't answer.

Greg,

For the record, Dean didn't come through unfortunately. I called him two weeks ago and got his assistant. I was told he'd call back but it took 4 days - only for it to be the again assistant, asking when I can set up the "appointment" (interesting because I had not explained anything about the work I wanted doing). I reiterated that I merely wanted to speak to Dean for a few minutes on the phone. She said he'd call back - I still haven't heard. Oh well - I think I'll follow Randell's advice and just start calling a bunch of electricians.

Randell, one thing that wasn't clear to me was why this would be considered a "job on the side"? Isn't a suitably skilled electrician going to consider this just part of the regular set of services offered?

Thanks.

Mark

[DarkDiscus]

Mark,

If I'm not mistaken you can get a list of Generac Generator Distributors/Installers from the company. That's what I did. Mine was installed last October and I think came to $3400 including installation. And the guy did have to rewire some of my box to make things work. Some of the installation also included crushed rock to make a flat bed for the generator which they also set up for me.

So far it has come on about 6 times (other than the weekly automatic testing) - we had a couple of 12+ hour power outages last winter, a short power outage last summer, a 6 hour stint one night for no apparent reason, an outage in the morning which would have prevented me from showering before work and (most importantly thus far) a 6 hour outage last thanksgiving right in the middle of dinner due to a blown transformer.

All I have to worry about is changing the oil and oil filter every so often.

I love the thing.

John

[markwill]

Mark,

If I'm not mistaken you can get a list of Generac Generator Distributors/Installers from the company.
But of course :-) Sometimes things are just too obvious for me :-) Thanks - I'll take a look.

Out of interest, what size did you get? I'm interested in the sizing in relation to "startup" needs. It seems that these generators support an "initial surge" of equipment starting up, yes?

Thanks.

Mark

[DarkDiscus]

You know, I'm not sure what the model number is, but the cost was around the $2600 mentioned earlier. I do know that it runs every circuit in my panel except for the stove and the circuit to the basement and exterior power.

There has never been a surge issue with regard to starting up, no matter the load needed - which has, at times, been most of my house.

John

[markwill]

This is so funny I had to post. I called a few places and had the first one come to take a look at our place last week. The cost of JUST installation (and not including the gas hook up)? - just under $9,000. I've been looking really closely but I can't for the life of me see the "Idiot" tattoo that he presumably saw right across my forehead :-) He did say that I should come back to him if I found the cost "a little high". Well, anyone with that type of rip-off attitude ain't on my list of people to call. He said it would take "4-5 days to install". And I'd have to have someone else pay for the gas hookup.

At a more serious level, I have found it hard to find "truth" in this area. Home Depot are all over the place in terms of being able to provide me with details. A sign on a generator at my local store says "$4,000, installed" which would be OK with me. But they appear to be unable to find anyone who will actually TALK to be about this.

It's been quite an eye opener for me - installation of generators is far less obvious a question than I originally assumed. And $9,000 is tad beyond my budget...

Thanks.

Mark

[jeep]

Installation from Home Depot is $999. I'm sure there will be a few extras in there, but not $8,000 worth :D

[ronrca]

just under $9,000.


He said it would take "4-5 days to install".

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

:puke:

Get someone else for sure! That is outragous. To bad you dont live close, Id send one of my contractors over to you.

Good luck!

[markwill]

Installation from Home Depot is $999. I'm sure there will be a few extras in there, but not $8,000 worth :D
Where did you see the $999 deal? Home Depot say $1,499 in my neck of the woods, for a "basic installation".

By the way, when I told that guys (Mr $9,000) I was, er, not interested I received a sarcastic message back saying "I didn't expect you to understand the pricing structure". Well, he got that right!!!

I have got one all-in quote (installation, concrete bed, hook up to gas, permits, etc, etc) for $5,000 INCLUDING a 7kw generator. Which is a lot better than a partial installation for $9,000 :-) I'm still thinking I can do a bit better but the idea of having all aspects addressed through one contract is attractive.

Mark

[markwill]

I am update ("the rest of the story...", so to speak).

I finally got my backup generator installed. I went through Home Depot in the end. Although it took a good deal of calling around and handholding (most of the people I spoke to there had no real idea about the product or the process for getting it installed), I kept trying and ended up locating a couple of very helpful individuals, one at Home Depot and one at Washington Energy Services who actually install the things. Without these two the thing would have been a hassle.

I did have one situation that frustrated me - had an install scheduled for a couple of weeks ago, cleared the decks of meetings at work so that I could work from home - and then got a call at 9am (the time they were due to arrive) to say that they didn't have a generator after all. Very frustrating. However, the installation did take place last Thursday and I have to say I am very happy.

I went for a 12kw Generic and it rocks!!! After installation there is a break-in process, which I did on Saturday, and involves turning on an increasing number of breakers over 4 hours. I did this (with my fish tank obviously being on the first set of breakers!!) - and ended up with the entire house (apart from the dryer) up and running. I turned on absolutely every light in the house (our house is 3,600 square feet), all our computers, heating, the TV/DVD/Tivo, etc, etc, etc. I could not find anything that wasn't turned on - and the generator handled it all without a hitch.

The way these things work is that they wait for 30 seconds just in case the utility power loss isn't an intermittent thing. So, it's completely automatic which provides excellent peace of mind.

I did learn on little trick about my fish tank. I have a canapy on the top of my fishtank which (intentionally) obscures the view of the extreme upper limit of when the tank is filled up. This meant I had typically been filling the tank to an inch or so less than the absolute maximum. Well, this creates a problem for the Aquaclears - they don't restart when power returns. So, now I fill to the to correctly and the filters restart without a problem.

All in all, I am very happy. Yes, it's a good deal of money but, with power cuts most winters (some multi-day), I will now be a "beacon" in the neighborhood the next time we have a power cut :-) And, of course, I have no concerns now about my fish when I am vacation. I paid $3,600 for the complete job (the unit, installation, permits, taxes, etc) - which is somewhat better than the $9,000 quote I had for partial-installation only :-)

Thanks.

Mark

[ronrca]

:thumbsup: Really glad it worked out for you especially the cost! Thanks for the update!

[DarkDiscus]

Mark,

Very cool.

I continue to love my generator over a year later! Did they go over the oil change schedule with you? I just did my fall oil change and everything is working quite well!

John

[markwill]

Mark,

Very cool.

I continue to love my generator over a year later! Did they go over the oil change schedule with you? I just did my fall oil change and everything is working quite well!

JohnHi John,

They mentioned the oil schedule somewhat informally but its pretty well documented in the manual. I plan to just do a couple a year (depending on how long and often I receive power cuts). I did the "run in" thing over the weekend and that entailed doing the first oil change (from the "run in" oil it comes with to the real stuff). I must admit it took me an AGE to get the cap off the oil change hose (it had been tightened too hard) but it looks like a very simple process.

I'm thrilled with the thing. I didn't expect to have the entire house lit up as I did on Saturday :-)

Thanks, by the way, for the encouraging words along the way. At one stage I considered other approaches (Home Depot didn't make it easy to find the right person!!!) but I am very glad you provided a little light at the end of the tunnel :-) Thanks.

Mark

[DarkDiscus]

Mark,

You know, I had the very same problem with the oil change. To remove the metal plug from the hose I had to use 2 wrenches and apply maximum force. Now that it's loosened its much better!

The oil change should be done every 20-25 hours of run time. So that's a whole lotta 15 minute weekly runs or a day long outage... I try to keep some oil filters and extra oil on hand in case I need it.

John

PS. You are welcome. Buying a generator makes you feel so secure and comfortable even in blizzards or storms, where before I used to get pretty stressed out. I suggest it to everyone who can afford it.

[ronrca]

Id love to see some pics actually if possible especially of the transfer switch and other connections. Can you also post the specs of the gen set? Was that a natural gas gen set?

[markwill]

Mark,

You know, I had the very same problem with the oil change. To remove the metal plug from the hose I had to use 2 wrenches and apply maximum force. Now that it's loosened its much better!
That's funny :-) For a few minutes yesterday I was seriously wondering if I was looking at the right hose :-)

Mark

[markwill]

Id love to see some pics actually if possible especially of the transfer switch and other connections. Can you also post the specs of the gen set? Was that a natural gas gen set?
Yes, I have natural gas (works with LP too). Schematically, here's what it looks like:

http://www.guardiangenerators.com/products/guardian_comp.asp

and here are the specs (I have the 12kw model):

http://www.guardiangenerators.com/products/guardian7_15kw.asp

The transfer switch is pretty simple - just the usual enclosure, with twelve breakers externally that take over the function of the original breakers (they sit, in series, in front of the original breakers). Aside from a thick cable joining the transfer switch with the original breaker box there isn't too much too look at.

Overall, my installation looks like the top one on this page:

http://www.guardiangenerators.com/products/guardian.asp

Thanks and let me know if you have any more questions.

Mark