Would You Knowingly Buy a Hormone Treated Fish?

[Barb Newell]

Would you buy a hormone treated fish? Yes.. no... and why?

[Sindhu]

No! No! No! Unless you have heaps of cash to throw and burn. You'd be crazy to. And have them die on you within 3 months. No Thanks!

Sindhu

[Greg Richardson]

No. Not knowingly.
Would one knowingly like to watch ballplayers who have tilted the playing field by taking steriods? They are ruining the game.
Been going on a long time and now no one knows what records are real.

Much like discus. Been going on a while. All about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!

Integrity is missing.

Just like ballplayers.

The game has suffered for it.

The discus hobby will continue to suffer because of it!

[cobaltblue]

I would never knowingly buy a hormone induced discus. Being a rookie though, i might by accident. Hopefully the breeder will have the integrity to at least let the customer know if they are hormone induced or not.

[tpl*co]

No, NO, NO! I think I unknowingly bought a hormoned fish and had it steadily decline and die :(.

[Jason]

yes and no,

I would not buy any fish that has been enhanced to make it more appealing or damaged by it.

The only exception is fish like LSS's, with alot of LSS pairs only throwing %10 or so that look like the parents, you need to use a tiny amount for grading purposes, or else you'll end up buying alot of fish that grow to be turqs and snakes that wont look like the parents.

In a situation like that a small amount of a mild compound used ethicly by someone with experience will not cause lasting health defects.

yeah it sucks and the world isn't perfect but paying alot of money for a LSS only to have it grow to be a turq is just as bad. IME and IMHO!

[Upper Canada]

I ( and some friends ) have made the mistake of trusting an Asian source which we had been advised, and there was no language barrier, were not color/hormone fed. Big mistake , never to be repeated.

I believe it is an important marketing issue with some breeders/ wholesalers and that some are heavily hormoned in order to produce a highly colored or spotted FISH quickly, ie. at 2 inches which can be sold to the general fish buying public, let alone the discus enthusiast. These are produced with the knowledge that they are apt to die within a short time but that most of those buyers may well buy again assuming the fault was their own, and if they do last six months in their community tank they are happy to replace them.

As Greg says it is all about the money.

Bob

Upper Canada Discus

[Tad]

Knowingly / "Hell No!"

unknowingly / "Unethical"

Tad

[fishmasterno1_2@msn.com]

NEVER WILL I KNOWINGLY!!!! Well I don't buy fish anyway. LOL :D

[raglanroad]

Where can I find out more about the hormoning of fish? I'd like to know what compounds are used, the dosages, the effects, etc. I have heard talk about the hormoning , but not much hard info. Have heard it turns fish blue or red, according to the hormone used, that it determines the sex of fry when used early. Have heard that massive amounts are used to enhance fish, but also heard that tiny amounts are used. More knowledge might equal less hormoning !
On the other hand, there are ways to supply ingredients that naturally may boost hormone levels, according to the fishes' needs. Wild-caughts may actually suffer from hormone insufficiency - due presumably to trauma - leading to a spiral of increased fright/fight/urgency , and reduced spawning ability.
That's why information is most needed.

[Jason]

Its alot of the above statements and mindsets that will prevent North American hobbyists from ever knowing the full details of what goes on in farms.

While it is true most of the chemical enhancements happen in Asia, that does not mean all Asian breeders or Asian people are untrustworthy, there just happens to be more breeders there and with that more bad and good breeders than there are here.

I happen to know and deal with a few breeders in asia who are honest, and its people like them who have dedicated countless years and hardwork to offer us the amazing fish we have today.

The demand for brightly coloured fish has caused the present state of where we are, alot of times farmers have to use chemicals on the fish or the wholesalers or distributers will not buy them, or the wholesalers/distributers may use the chemicals after the breeder is out of the picture. That would'nt make the breeder a dishonest asian would it?

If I had a spawn of 1.5" LSS fry and wanted to select the best for a breeding program I don't have the room to grow out 150 or more to select the best, if I used CR6 or something simmilar for 3 or 4 days to select the top 30 or so with the best spotting potential to keep and grow does that make me unethical? a year down the road after I've selected my pairs I will sell the extra's, does that make me a dishonest seller?

If a breeder enters a fish in a competion and uses a enhancing compound prior to the show is that dishonest? surely some hard work had to go into growing the fish or even the breeder could have been working on the strain for years prior. The enhancement did'nt change a bad fish into a show winner.
If a beauty pageant contestant puts make-up on before the show does that make her unethical?

I will never be in favour of doctoring fish to deceive a buyer, make the fish into something its not, or harming any animal for financial gain, Its just that in order to progress every point of view has to be considered, dialog has to be open, pointing fingers and slamming doors isn't going to change what's going on, As I'm sure was the point of this thread with the first post.

What Asian breeder would feel comfortable posting to a thread like this? he's already been labeled money-hungry, unethical, and dishonest.

Why don't we all just try to make an effort to understand before we make judgements, then we will stand a better chance at advancing the hobby past "hormones"
is any one up for that? I feel its been needed for a long time.

[Greg Richardson]

Jason. Because one person mentioned an Asian Breeder does that mean all posts were directed towards Asians? Sure looks like it from your post.
I re-read the posts and see it mentioned once.
And so what?
Do you really believe just because ONE breeder was mentioned we think they all do it?
That would be like me mentioning a breeder that does it in the states so all breeders do it here?

As far as LSS goes I don't feel qualified enough to give you an opinion on that.

But as far as your giving it before a show yes I feel it's unethical.

Does that mean you want ballplayers to cycle their roids right before the playoffs?

Is that fair to the others who have worked hard to being natural talents to the game?

Is it fair to the hobbyist who doesn't use anything more than colorbits or the other natural enhancement? [can't remember name right now think it starts with an N.] to compete with someone who at the last minute doctors their fish?

I say NO!

If an Asian Breeder reads one breeder mentioned and not even a name feels he is being singled out that is taking POLITICAL CORRECTNESS once again to the limit.

Our country has gone so far down the political correctness road it is destroying free speech.

[Jason]

Hi Greg,

maybe I was generalizing and taking points out of contest and my apologies for that.
I just wish we could get away from these threads and get on down the road to hormone free discus. wich I beleive is possible.

It is a subject and industry I feel very passionate about, I am sorry if anyone has been offended by my post,

Lets take this thread and open up dialog on the issue.

Greg feels enhancing a show fish at and judging alongside a non treat fish is unetthical.

who else feels that way and why?

or do people feel it is not unethical?

if they can clean-up baseball, then who knows

I'm just trying to offer different points of view, not pro's and cons, just a different view.

[Greg Richardson]

Hey Jason. No biggie. I just think the problem is world wide.
And my bet is it's especially heavy here in the states.

BTW. You have a real nice website. Very professional. Great job.

Oh and baseball. They are far from cleaning it up.
I wish it was legit actions but they aren't imo.
Unfortunately it's all about the money there also.

I'm a discus and a baseball freak. LOL!

[raglanroad]

Part of it is the complex question.
There may be differences between fish shows, fish selling, and pet keeping in regards to ethics. Pet keeping has to do with what is best for the fish, fish selling has to do with possible misrepresentation,and shows contain elements of what constitutes fair play or adherence to rules.
And there may be differences in what the terms "hormoning", "altering", "color-enhancing", "color-feeding" mean to each of us.
And ColorBits contains Red 3, a hormone ( estrogen) mimicking substance.

I don't think the thread has pointed out unfairly the Asian suppliers. I think that this idea has been circulated so much that most anyone could think that most of it goes on there. Mention the hormoning subject and unfortunately, I think a pre-formed idea springs to mind. And so it's good to bring up the subject if some information can come out of it.

[JimmyL]

If the discus do not come from Asia. Where else can they come from? Not only Asia in general. We can almost put only one single dot on the world map where 90% of the fish come from. I found what Jason's suggestion is valid in some degree. I used to do that to select a few juveniles to keep before selling them. Hormone is not a good way to do it. Evenone single dose. They tend to weaken their immune system to some degree that can cause white feces between 2"-4". Now I just use Naturose and nothing else. Homoned fish is doing the discus community a dis-service and that's the main reason Discus is hard to keep. A non-hormoned fish will keep growing without any problem even for a novice keeper only do once a week 30% W/C, feeding only once a day or very often forget to feed for a day or 2. The main culprit of this industry has been damage by Hormone single handedly. Esp. the last year and half when brokers misread the dosage of the new medication. Putting 10 times more than it suppose to be. 98% of the discus can't live pass 6 months. Dissection revealed there is no liver in them.
Jimmy
Jimmy.

[tag]

No, I would never knowingly buy a hormoned fish. My appreciation for discus goes further than skin/scales/colour/pattern deep but if it's going to be for that they attract me than I want to enjoy them for their natural beauty.

It's like having an interest in diamonds and adding a fake to your collection because it's perfect.....much easier to occur and less admirable than the raw natural form.

Unknowingly would just be wrong.

Take care

Tina

[Gary Bolton]

In buying them, you help encourage it. Never buy them!

[crimson cross]

Most of us will not buy a fish IF we know it's hormoned, but, many times we buy hormoned fish unknowingly..
When a fish looks to good to be true, it usually is..buyers beware is the advise of the day..hth.

[Barb Newell]

Hi, this is sort of long, I jump around a little, but my main goal is to stop needless suffering and early death of discus, and consumer $$$ rip offs, bad reputations for discus.

I love discus. I will sacrifice maybe too much to get that water change done, I won't go to bed if I know my babies are in (not so good) water, I quit going to the Great North on vacation for 3 years because I knew no one else could care for my fish ( next year my w/c system will be up and I can go away for a week with my kids). I feed my discus when they are hungry (because I can't imagine starving them), they get attention, a lot of human interaction from myself, my son and my daughter, and they ARE NOT JUST FISH IN GENERAL, salmon, tuna....(which I think a lot of individuals have rationalized -- the horror stories about catching them on a hook.. sometimes through their eye, gutting them while they're still alive with a hook knife , horrifying......, they're living ,feeling creatures more intelligent than I think we'd like to admit... afterall it's easier to believe they don't feel... I know for a fact that they do. We need to respect them.

That being said.....It CAN'T BE ABOUT CASH! Most of us who love them know we lose money every month from hydro, water, food, dechlorinator, hydrosponges, pumps, reservoirs, bloodworms, freshly hatched baby brine for the babies, personal sacrifice, there is no profit. .... unless we alter the fish to make the profit happen quickly, in other words, sell them at a price that much larger fish should be sold at. Try selling a colourless bland discus for $50, try selling a fully spotted, brilliantly coloured fish for $50...... the brightly coloured fish will sell first and the other will not sell!



On the hormoning;

I believe it's a way to sell fish that are not what they appear to be for big $$$. I base that on the number of people I have come to my house to purchase fish.... they tell me they have already killed many discus, and after a long time, have decided to try again. Many blame themselves. They often indicate that the fish they bought were brightly coloured at 2".


Yesterday, I visited a local Chinese fish store on Dundas Street, Hwy #5 beside Big Als in the Chinese Emporium.... I saw baby discus (1") culls, clearly suffering -- clamped fins, gills clamped shut, fungus..... just floating around the tank clearly, one little guy was dead in there.... others not far from dead.... :mad: $24.99 each, this is not acceptable.



I have some 1 1/2 year old juvies who were born here (so I know NO ONE HAS TAMPERED WITH THEM in any way), every day they change a little. It's exciting. The quick beauty thing, vibrant color, spots, even spots within spots... is shortlived, expensive, devastating and cruel to the fish, sorry but in my opinion it's true. Who exactly gave us permission to do that to the fish?


My first experience with discus was... the promise of magnificent babies, magnificent colour, magnificent health certification, magnificent quality, promised they'd breed 100% true, magnificent prices LOL ($80 ea for 2" bd's and cobalts)... they were all dead at 6 months old, not fair to them, not fair to me because I loved them ---- intramuscular nematodes, in other words worms growing out of their flesh and eating them alive and hormoning.


Personally, I'd never buy a fish that I suspected had been hormoned because simply... I REFUSE TO DONATE MY MONEY TO THAT PRACTICE, simple.


Barb

[Greg Richardson]

Hi Barb. You said.....................

Try selling a colourless bland discus for $50, try selling a fully spotted, brilliantly coloured fish for $50...... the brightly coloured fish will sell first and the other will not sell!





Another perspective on that statement.
I think that statement sums up nicely this whole situation.

The more we educate people on what a discus should look like at a certain age the better the hobby will become.

The more each breeder whether hobby breeder or otherwise educates their clients on the fact you have no control over color as the fish grows but here is their parents you have made the hobby stronger.

As more breeders get good reputations without putting their greed in the way, the level of education will rise to the point that hormoned fish will for the most part just be sold at LFS. [Okay I can dream!]

I do believe one with a good reputation has no problem selling a bland fish once their reputation has been established along with continuing to educate their clients.

When the client has seen others buy from them and the natural growth development takes place they will have a better idea of what is natural.

I do believe it is like a lot of businesses. Some will always sell out to greed.

Others will be able to greet past clients at the door with no guilt from past sales.

What I'd like to see on Simply is a thread on the timeline of color development on as many discus as possible.

I do realize feed, wc's, other factors come into play with that development.

That being said, in general I bet that type of thread would be very helpful to the hobby and cause some to SQUIRM if you know what I mean!!!!!

PS. From what I've read about you........You are one who has the reputation to sell a $50.00 bland fish and the client can trust you the color will come later.

[Barb Newell]

What I'd like to see on Simply is a thread on the timeline of color development on as many discus as possible.

That's a good idea.
I think that would be very educational. Many people just don't realize that these colorless little babies will become a beautiful big fat discus!

Let's all start getting some pics together of different strains of discus at various ages. I know I have some pics of many of my fish when they were babies, I still have many of the fish now. I'll do some searching.



From what I've read about you........You are one who has the reputation to sell a $50.00 bland fish and the client can trust you the color will come later

Thanks, that's another issue. As long as the customer makes the effort and keeps up with lots of water changes, good feedings, and don't add other fish that may be diseased ... yes they do well.

Barb

[Jason]

The problem starts with the demand for cheap, brightly coloured, spotted 2" fish. wich there is no short supply of. I'm sure alot of simply members understand that hormones destroy fish, newbies do not and because of this there is more newbies than serious hobbyists around, that is how its has gotten so bad in the first place.

I cannot even count how many times people have gone out and bought hormoned fish because my spotted snakes and rsg's are sold at 4" and at a pretty steep price for the begginer...after I explained why they would be better off with mine.

I'd like that to change but do not see how unless there is another "discus plague" like the one in the 80's and breeders are forced to not use hormones because they need healthy, strong, desease resitant stock.

untill then I wont be profitable like the cheap fish, hormoned fish importers are.

[Barb Newell]

I cannot even count how many times people have gone out and bought hormoned fish because my spotted snakes and rsg's are sold at 4" and at a pretty steep price for the begginer...after I explained why they would be better off with mine.

Same here Jason.... I go through it all the time ..... and then... when the hormoned fish die, the customer is told that it was their fault, their bad water quality, and they are inexperienced... then discus get a bad reputation.

Barb

[Greg Richardson]

It's all about education. You all got to hang in there. It's certainly going to take some time.

And I agree the problem is never going to go away completely but the more the situation is revealed the better off it is for all breeders and hobbyist.

I want to encourage Barb, Jason, and the rest of you with websites to dig up your pictures.

Start that color growth thread of as many different strains as you can.

I also want to encourage NADA if you don't already and all the rest of the discus organizations to have educational sections about this problem.

The more people read about it where ever they go the better!

Thanks!

[cowboy steve]

Same here Jason.... I go through it all the time ..... and then... when the hormoned fish die, the customer is told that it was their fault, their bad water quality, and they are inexperienced... then discus get a bad reputation.

Barb
Responsible breeders such as yourself are the bulwark against these practices becoming the norm in the industry.

Sites such as this also have a role in educating people, if no one expects to see dramatic adult colorization in a juvenile fish the impetus to enhance them artificially will decline.

[Jeff]

From what I read here I think most people believe that hormones=profits from the breeders standpoint. Why would you think that?

[Mughal]

I am new to the Discus Fish...I have none now! I want some, and yes definitely the price plays a critical role in the fish that's going to get purchased. The fact is that Regular people want to get Discus, but people like many on this website charge such steep prices that not only would it be cheaper to buy someplace unreputable by 'Your' standards, but it would be cheaper to buy it a dozen or more times...it's insane!

Furthermore do you notice how no one posts their prices for the discus? Even someone who wanted to know about the discus would have to make a long distance phone call to someplace that doesn't even answer their phones. I myself have tried to contact just about everybody in the vendors section on this website, and the only person available is Kumar because he's home on Disability! And he's al the way in Canada.

Therefore (you're not going to like this) "YOU" are the people that 'sponsor' this hormone rage. If I need any other fish I can get dozens of quotes for it just by forum postings or going to the website. I CAN be educated because the information about pricing and age and coloration is all there, and yes pricing is very important.

[Mughal]

I am new to the Discus Fish...I have none now! I want some, and yes definitely the price plays a critical role in the fish that's going to get purchased. The fact is that Regular people want to get Discus, but people like many on this website charge such steep prices that not only would it be cheaper to buy someplace unreputable by 'Your' standards, but it would be cheaper to buy it a dozen or more times...it's insane!

Furthermore do you notice how no one posts their prices for the discus? Even someone who wanted to know about the discus would have to make a long distance phone call to someplace that doesn't even answer their phones. I myself have tried to contact just about everybody in the vendors section on this website, and the only person available is Kumar because he's home on Disability! And he's al the way in Canada.

Therefore (you're not going to like this) "YOU" are the people that 'sponsor' this hormone rage. If I need any other fish I can get dozens of quotes for it just by forum postings or going to the website. I CAN be educated because the information about pricing and age and coloration is all there, and yes pricing is very important.