What to do??

[Kindredspirit]

could someone please advise me!! :(

I have four discus, all about four months old, two of them are just a little smaller than the other two...I purchased three of them from Cary, at GLD, and all are doing well in my 30 gal tank! I took out the one I had first, as she/he was ramming the other ones...hard....so i put her in the 10 gal tank...for a few days...then i put her back... She was fine for a week or so, and yesterday i put her back in the 10 gal tank cuz she was being so mean...

Now, one of the three that is left, is doing the same thing!!! Ramming the other two....hard! I wanna smack him! Should i put him in the ten gal tank for a while or just let it go?? OR...should i bring back the one that is in there now?? I am soooooooooo confused....i dont want anyone getting hurt or injured...

Why do they DO that?? F......... annoys me!! lol..


marie

[Greg Richardson]

Hi Marie. Been through the same thing. A few times. They finally worked it out in one tank.
And I switched some among tanks.

Yep. That is very stressful watching that happen.

Very weird one of them I had to stick back in other tank where before everyone would pound on him. Now they leave him alone. Smallest one in there. I have potted plants in there now. Only thing different than before when I had to get him out.
Stress I think is leading cause of sickness imo.
Wish I had answer for you. I do think big amazon sword plants do give them a place to go among the leaves and chill out the ones being chased.

[cowboy steve]

could someone please advise me!! :(

I have four discus, all about four months old, two of them are just a little smaller than the other two...I purchased three of them from Cary, at GLD, and all are doing well in my 30 gal tank! I took out the one I had first, as she/he was ramming the other ones...hard....so i put her in the 10 gal tank...for a few days...then i put her back... She was fine for a week or so, and yesterday i put her back in the 10 gal tank cuz she was being so mean...

Now, one of the three that is left, is doing the same thing!!! Ramming the other two....hard! I wanna smack him! Should i put him in the ten gal tank for a while or just let it go?? OR...should i bring back the one that is in there now?? I am soooooooooo confused....i dont want anyone getting hurt or injured...

Why do they DO that?? F......... annoys me!! lol..


marie

The fish are trying to establish a pecking order, there will be a top fish, and a bottom fish, with the others in between.

Removal of the dominant one means the next fish in the hierarchy becomes the dominant fish.

The converse is true, if you remove the bottom fish, the next in line would take it's place.

The most common method employed to lessen the aggression problem is to keep Discus in groups of six, or more.

This spreads the aggression through a larger population.

By removing one you are prolonging the process, they need to work out amongst themselves who is boss.

Off hand, I would say get more fish, and a bigger tank.

[Kindredspirit]

Greg/Steve!

Thank you both very much for taking the time to answer! So.. i guess i shall put the one back in the 30 gal tank...i agree in that having six would be better...but i only have a 30 gal tank..for now...lol

Also, i KNEW i should have something in the tank for some to hide from the more agressive ones...i shall put plants back in....i was tired of never seeing them, tho!!!


Thanks Guys!!

Marie!

[cowboy steve]

Greg/Steve!

Thank you both very much for taking the time to answer! So.. i guess i shall put the one back in the 30 gal tank...i agree in that having six would be better...but i only have a 30 gal tank..for now...lol

Also, i KNEW i should have something in the tank for some to hide from the more agressive ones...i shall put plants back in....i was tired of never seeing them, tho!!!


Thanks Guys!!

Marie!

I'd put them all back in and let them sort things out for themselves, I would consider getting a bigger tank, a 55 or 65, and adding two more fish.

A general rule of thumb is ten gallons per fish, you're pushing it with four in a thirty.

[Greg Richardson]

Make sure they are potted plants. Imo you get the best of both worlds that way by having plants yet still making it easy to clean.

[Kindredspirit]

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:


Thank You, Greg!



Marie

[traco]

Mine are doing the same. There is definately one dominant one who is boss. I've got 10 and still there is the dominancy thing happening. At least with this many, there is not one fish being picked on all the time. It is hard to watch the fight for pecking order so can sympathize with you! ;)

[Kindredspirit]

Thank You , Traco!!

I just put back Ms Pringles, she was my first...and the biggest bully! She is a little better today! I have found tho, removing the meanest, doesnt mean shyt, cuz there will always be another! I was suggested to let them work it out.... So i shall! I think too, i borrow trouble, as i read sooooooo much of what can go wrong! I have ALL the meds that Carol suggested...'just in case'...now, i am trippin...'omg, he spit that out'! HEX! and one day i read this guy's post and he said, to just when you notice something not right, then treat them!

Hey, how can you tell male from female?? and how can you tell if they are 'pairing up'? ...like staying really close to each other???


Thanks!


Marie!

[cobaltblue]

i am no expert but i generally like to let things work themselves out. Its great to stay on top of things but i think we can often over medicate our fish. Dosing with meds at the first sign of what we think may be a problem. Ive found salt works well just getting fish back into the groove. When i bought my 6 2.5in fish about 3 months ago, they took a about a month to establish the pecking order, and one became a runt and wasnt gaining weight. I tried many things that i was advised to, and it still died. The other five had been doing great.

[korbi_doc]

:( I have/had 6 discus in a 90g tank, 4 cories, amazon sword, lava rock & driftwood.. 2 have ganged up on all the others, killed 2, 2 to go..& I do not believe this is a pr, seems to be both females.. has happened before, this is typical of "cichlids", drive us crazy....I'm probably going to add some more since I'm culling & emptying a tank in prep for Singapore trip, lol, that may keep'm busy, hopefully they'll sort it out, Dottie :rolleyes:

[Kindredspirit]

:( :cry: :cry: Chris, it died???? That is horrible, babe! *******....i am just sitting here in my office and my tank is right here, and again, Ms. Pringles, is thinking she is all that! I hate it, Chris! i wanna get in there and smack her up the head!! I yell at her!! can you believe that?? I wont EVEN ask if fish can hear that! I just love them tho....

Dottie, one of yours died as well?? wow...well i will think of something...I will put her back in the smaller tank ...but then the other one will take her place! :angry:

what to do what to do!!! :confused:

Hey, thanks guys!!! I have a question, what is a Cull? Like a bad looking one, that can be sacrificed or something???

[traco]

I remember your fish named Ms. Pringles!! I've got the same thing going on with my tank. Queen Rose is a bit.. and you do feel like going in and shooing her away (well actually, just like you said, smacking her - and no I don't just in case people are sucking in their breath right now) Really frustrating and of course, I feel sorry for the underdog. It is hard to watch the hierarchy going on.

Culls are different things to different people. A football shaped discus could be a cull to someone. Myself, I don't care but I don't breed. I am still battling for the little one I have in my tank. He is just so tiny and timid. I make sure that I feed lots and he does eat last and picks along the bottom. But of course, then the nitrates go up so out comes the vacuum to clean up all the debris. I don't know how people who have more than one tank can do daily water changes. I know that some have automated easy systems but not everyone!

I know it helped me that there were others out there that were starting out and going through the same things I am. Myself, I overthink and stress the same as you do as in the "oh, oh, they aren't eating" "should I medicate the tank" and so on. It does make a difference with daily water changes and I also dose with salt first before anything else. Same as in my other tanks with guppies, etc... bump up the temp, dose with salt and wait and see if that helps.

Hope this helps you knowing that I'm the same as you with my train of thought? :) Oh, and also, that I name my fish too. :D :D

[cowboy steve]

:( :cry: :cry: Chris, it died???? That is horrible, babe! *******....i am just sitting here in my office and my tank is right here, and again, Ms. Pringles, is thinking she is all that! I hate it, Chris! i wanna get in there and smack her up the head!! I yell at her!! can you believe that?? I wont EVEN ask if fish can hear that! I just love them tho....

Dottie, one of yours died as well?? wow...well i will think of something...I will put her back in the smaller tank ...but then the other one will take her place! :angry:

what to do what to do!!! :confused:

Hey, thanks guys!!! I have a question, what is a Cull? Like a bad looking one, that can be sacrificed or something???

Sorry to hear about that.

If it makes you feel any better, they are just behaving according to instinct, they really cannot help it.

It's not a bad fish, and you are not a bad fish keeper, these things happen.

Cull is both a noun and a verb, a sub-standard or stunted Discus could be referred to as a Cull, which merely denotes it's inferior status to other Discus in terms of size or shape, or the standard of a particular strain.

It is a subjective determination.

To Cull, on the other hand, is the practice of eliminating certain fry or juveniles, usually practiced by those who breed, if the fish evidenced shortened gill plates, does not grow, fin deformities, etc, they will cull them.

Just like hierarchical aggression, it's just one of those things that is.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey, Cowboy! Thank you for clearing that up... And you are right, i do remember reading that 'to cull' was a practice as well, and i was getting confused, cuz i knew it was undesirable discus too! Thanks again! :D I will hang in there and hope they start getting along! I was thinking of a 50 gal tank...but then there would be more fish, and more problems and more worry.....and NO more room,lol!!


Couldnt stick to four 200lb dogs....HAD TO HAVE THESE DISCUS!!!

go figure.... :angel:


Marie!

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Barb! (Traco)

I remember you!! and yes, Ms. Pringles...what a b.....! So you name your fish too! What is WRONG with that??? I mean, im thinking we are the only ones, here Barb!! :o

i hope your little one is going to be okay! You have a 90gal tank?? wow...I would for sure have to think of something else besides using the bucket with that! I have a 10gal and a 30gal...I am a bucket person...I wouldnt know how else to do it! Our house is like 6 bedrooms, and the kitchen and bathrooms are so far from my office!! bummer, yes?? lol!!

I am so glad you are trippin like me in some cases!! Hey, Barb, do you know anything about 'pairing'... ? cuz i think two of my discus are like being 'strange' with each other...they are only like 4 months old, tho...I have NO idea what age they start pairing off....I would simply have to call you if i woke and found little tiny discuses everywhere!! What would i do??? They are sooooooo adorable arent they?? i would love to breed, but omg....no, no no ....from all that i have read, it is not an easy task to accomplish! But i have read many stories about people juss finding all these fry!!

Whatcha gonna do??? lol :D :D :D :D :D


Take care, woman!!


Marie!!

[KIWI13]

Marie, I have two fish and they go at it all the time but no ones getting hurt and there are alot of places to hide in my tank.
if you wanna calm em down a bit then add some other fish to subside the aggression. i have a pair of angels in there and a pair of rams and when the lil rams wanna breed no fish is too big. They give the discus a lil chase around and the discus forget their pecking order for awhile.
Get some other fish to distract them. Rams, Tetras, Angels

Stop seperating them cause you will end up stressing out your fish. Their behaviour is normal they are cichlids thats waht they are meant to do. I would hate to have a tank of discus that just hung there like goldfish.

HTH

Jason

[mattb]

This is a common problem new keepers have with discus, including myself. I tried to ignore the following basic facts.

[1] You need at least 6 discus to stop bullying (to death)
[2] Discus need space otherwise bullying gets worse. It's a bit like putting 3 children in one small bedroom they will fight no matter what.

Alot of advice I received about tank size and amounts of discus concentrated on water quality and filtration. No one really just said you can't keep 6 discus in that size tank as it is too small and they will fight like hell.

I have learned the hardway and lost 3 or 4 discus over the time I have owned them, get a bigger tank, put more discus in and pray you don't get a small weak one as it will be bullied to death no matter what you do. You can delay it by more feeding and changing tank decoration but it will happen. It's just the way they are :(

Matt

[Kindredspirit]

Jason!

How are ya?? I will put some other fish back in with the discus....I have a an angel fish and a small rainbow shark, and a eel, that i took out and are in the 10gal tank to give the four discus more room in the 30 gal as i have no room for a 50 gal tank.....i dont think...lol and i am keeping all my discus!!

...a tangled web we weave, yes??


Thanks Jason, i will not move them anymore....you are right!

Marie!

[Kindredspirit]

Matt! thanks for the advice! I only have four in the 30 gal...not six...i know i know....eventually....No one ever told me that i couldnt have four in a 30 gal, and when i ordered the new three discus, they were aware of the one i had and my 30 gal tank which would make four in a 30 gal tank... I should have come to this site and READ more...my fault....I also thought i was getting what i actually SAW, big ones with awesome color! but rec'vd little ones with no color :( ...again, probably my fault as i had really no clue what i was doing....but was assured they would turn into the picture on the site i originally saw....and i love them! Live and learn , yes??


Thanks again Matt!

Marie!

[KIWI13]

If you got em from Cary then theres nothing to worry about. He has a geat sales record with amazing fish. you should be happy the little ones had no colour cause Cary grows em naturally not like alot of breeders world wide that add hormones to their fish, giving them adult colouring at juvi stage :mad:

You asked for three and you got three, ofcourse no one is gonna tell ya otherwise, you get what you order, But Marie don't worry, they can stay in the 30 gallon for awhile and that gives you time to figure out what to do.

Yes put the single angel in there with em and you can add some cardinal tetras.

They will grow to the nice pics you saw, well it depends on how you feed em and look after them. if your like m ethen no talot cause I spend 9 hrs at work and the rest looking after a 2 and a half year old son, the fish take third place.

I wish I had more time sometimes to devote to growing out discus successfully but alas work is important. LMAO. Plus at work I get to monitor Simply Discus and thats cool.....

Jas

[cowboy steve]

Hey, Cowboy! Thank you for clearing that up... And you are right, i do remember reading that 'to cull' was a practice as well, and i was getting confused, cuz i knew it was undesirable discus too! Thanks again! :D I will hang in there and hope they start getting along! I was thinking of a 50 gal tank...but then there would be more fish, and more problems and more worry.....and NO more room,lol!!


Couldnt stick to four 200lb dogs....HAD TO HAVE THESE DISCUS!!!

go figure.... :angel:


Marie!

Actually, with more fish and a bigger tank, you may have fewer problems.

The larger number of fish will spread out the aggression, and the bigger tank will give more room to everyone, and give fish that are being picked on a place to hide, or room to run.

A lot of times in a big tank an aggressive fish will stop chasing another if it swims to the opposite side of the tank, you can also split your feeding areas if you are feeding and an aggressive fish chases others away, you can feed the ones that flee at the opposite end.

I would go with a 65 minimum, in the long run you'll be better off.

You could get by with a 55, the problem is that's still a heavy load for six adults, you can cut the bio-load with water changes, but the 55 is the ******* stepchild of tanks it seems bigger than it really is and it usually ends up being too small for a lot of applications.

A lot of people just use them for growing out a group of young Discus, then move them to bigger tanks.

Your best bet would be to go with a 75, it gives you a lot more options and more latitude than with a smaller tank.

Think about it in these terms, would you and your four 200lb dogs be happier in a one bedroom apartment in the city, or a house with a big yard in the suburbs?

[Kindredspirit]

:argue: :argue: :argue: STEVE! yesterday, you told me 50..NOW...75GAL??? You are definitely trippin, Sir!


...but that would be nice! lol....thank you for all the advice, Steve, really! You seem very wise....how come you are not a moderator?? And you are right, we have a 6bed room house with a very large, nice back yard for all the pups!!

i see your point....dayum it!!

Thank you!!


:angel: Jason!

Thank you too! I put the angel in there....and i did get them from Cary...very cool guy! and FYI, I only paid for two, he gave me one free!! How cool was that??? and i know they are going to be okay....I already wormed them, and only mine, had some worms....not his!! but i knew that! and they are getting some color too!!! I am very okay with them!! and i am very glad you monitor this site, Jas....i have read sooooo much of what you write! Esp when you are going off on someone, but in a very polite manner! I love that!! LOL..some of your response are hilarious!!!! I love reading them!!

Very Wise.....and cool! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

thanks guys!!


Marie!!

[cowboy steve]

:argue: :argue: :argue: STEVE! yesterday, you told me 50..NOW...75GAL??? You are definitely trippin, Sir!


...but that would be nice! lol....thank you for all the advice, Steve, really! You seem very wise....how come you are not a moderator?? And you are right, we have a 6bed room house with a very large, nice back yard for all the pups!!

i see your point....dayum it!!

Thank you!!


:angel: Jason!

Thank you too! I put the angel in there....and i did get them from Cary...very cool guy! and FYI, I only paid for two, he gave me one free!! How cool was that??? and i know they are going to be okay....I already wormed them, and only mine, had some worms....not his!! but i knew that! and they are getting some color too!!! I am very okay with them!! and i am very glad you monitor this site, Jas....i have read sooooo much of what you write! Esp when you are going off on someone, but in a very polite manner! I love that!! LOL..some of your response are hilarious!!!! I love reading them!!

Very Wise.....and cool! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

thanks guys!!


Marie!!
It's my job to know these things, I'm a Cowboy.

I should have added the caveat with my suggestion for the 55 that it would not be an optimal solution.

[KIWI13]

Your most welcome Marie, i try my best to help and I tend to be arguementitive too LMAO. But Al ( BREWMASTER15) keeps me in line lol :p

Jas :)

You know what, spoil yourself, get a big tank a 75 gallon is great with 7 fish in there and you will have less of a headache. Plus I understand the space factor. Thats whats stopping me from doing the same. :(

[Kindredspirit]

:D Jason! I AM spoiled, trust me...and itz only my daughter and myself....we are spoiled!! But we work hard too! I would love a 75gal tank, but the water changes on that??? omg!! With a bucket?? Im thinking Hell No! I am sure there is a special hose to run all the way to the sink?? Hey Jason, yesterday was the first day that they all came right to the front of the tank, right here, it is like i can reach out and touch them floating!! I love when they do that...I have my tank right here next to my desk..but....yesterday, they all came right to the front and ate those disgusting live cbw, i get from Dan, ewwwwwwww! it was very cool to watch tho!! I always think one has dropped on me, tho!!! I even dreamt (sp) about those lil suckers the other night! ugh!! I hate them, but Cary suggested i feed them.... Hey Jason, you never told me what you and your family are doing in France? Do you like it?? I did when i was there..of course i was only 10!!

I am going to purchase Andrew's book..would you know where i could do that off hand??

:balloon: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon:


O..K...A....Y.... Steve!! you are a Cowboy!.... got it!! :D





thanks guys!!

[cobaltblue]

I feel your pain with the water changes in a big tank. I just went from a 25g to a 90g. I used to do the bucket thing too. Not anymore. I bought a hose that i can hook directly to the kitchen sinka and viola, 50% water changes in less than 15 minutes, with no mess.....Just make sure nobody flushes the toilet while you are doing it to avoid temp changes....I have three little girls under 6, so time is very valuable to me as well. I dont have hours on end each day to dedicate to my fish. Maybe when i retire way down the road, but not now. :D :D :D

Cheers,

[cowboy steve]

:D Jason! I AM spoiled, trust me...and itz only my daughter and myself....we are spoiled!! But we work hard too! I would love a 75gal tank, but the water changes on that??? omg!! With a bucket?? Im thinking Hell No! I am sure there is a special hose to run all the way to the sink?? Hey Jason, yesterday was the first day that they all came right to the front of the tank, right here, it is like i can reach out and touch them floating!! I love when they do that...I have my tank right here next to my desk..but....yesterday, they all came right to the front and ate those disgusting live cbw, i get from Dan, ewwwwwwww! it was very cool to watch tho!! I always think one has dropped on me, tho!!! I even dreamt (sp) about those lil suckers the other night! ugh!! I hate them, but Cary suggested i feed them.... Hey Jason, you never told me what you and your family are doing in France? Do you like it?? I did when i was there..of course i was only 10!!

I am going to purchase Andrew's book..would you know where i could do that off hand??

:balloon: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon:


O..K...A....Y.... Steve!! you are a Cowboy!.... got it!! :D





thanks guys!!

There is a product, called a Python, it's probably available at any LFS, or chain pet store near you.

You can drain and refill your tank from a faucet.

[traco]

Hi Marie

I did the "bucket brigade" too! It wasn't fun; I would try and suck my son into doing the buckets "come on, you're big and strong, can't you lift this little bucket?" It worked for awhile .... I ended getting a Python gravel cleaner 24" and it has a 2' hose attached to it with proper fittings to screw on the tap. I ended up going to Home Depot and got 40' of hosing which gives me enough length to reach the tank. Cheaper than ordering hosing for the Python. I know how far to turn my hot and cold water taps when doing a water change and have no problem keeping the same temp for the fill up. A definate back saver!

Barb

I also started out with a 65 gallon which I had originally had, scratches and all. Last I think, 2 months and I got a 90 gallon and stand for our anniversary. It just fits where the original tank stood. My husband was kind of relieved when I said I'd like that; beats him trying to figure out what to get! :D