Discus Dying

[CRMW]

Hi

I ave been lurking here for a month or so, & didn't need to post as all of my questions have been awnsered by using the search, but now I have a problem, my discus are dying quickly. I was aware that the tank was overstocked (14 discus in a 90 gal) but the previous owner had the tank running for some time with no problems.

I hope someone can help.

Thanks,
Chris
DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Started Tue PM, about 5:00 I found a dead discus in the tank, they were fine for the morning feeding. Wed eve. I found another discus swimming on its side, I got a quarentine tank set up & transfered him to it about midnight. He was dead by morning. All the other fish seemed fine. I came home from work today and found a third dead fish.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)
1st fish was black when I found him.
2nd fish had white marks on both the bottem & top fins & some lighter patches on his body. He was swimming on his side prior to dying.
3rd fish had no signs of anything wrong.





3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.
40% PWC after first & does of Melafix
30% PWC after 2nd - Removed pleco's from tank & installed an aquaclear 110 in addition to my XP#3
Just found the third one & descided I needed help. I have reset the heaters to 31 deg C but it will take some time to get there.




Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
90 Gal

Was 14 Discus
15 Cardinals
2 Plecos - Removed last night
1 catfish

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Planted Gravel
Tank has been up for about 2 years, I bought it 2 months ago.

2 25% PWC / week with temp. correct water
Water is not aged



6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____84 deg F

- ph _____ 7.8

- ammonia reading ____ 0

- nitrite reading ____ Less than .25 PPM

- nitrate reading ____ approx 10

- well water ____

- municipal water ____ yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

not within the last month


Thanks for your help.

[shalu]

what water conditioner/dechlorinator do you use for water changes?

[CRMW]

I use Aquaplus, 5 ml per 10 gal.

I took three of the Discus & put them in the hospital tank with some Epson salt to see if that will help. Hopefully!

Chris

[Barb Newell]

Hi, do large water changes until your ammonia and nitrites are both zero, and very low nitrates. Add salt 2 tbsp/ 10 gals.

possibly nitrite poisoning?

Barb

[AADiscus]

I would do like Barb Said......Water change, water change!!!!!! How often do you do water changes??? You might want to think about going to a bare bottom. Whenever thing clears up you could always go back to a planted tank.

PS. Discus do better in a bare bottom ;)

[Cosmo]

The first question that popped into my mind was, how often do you clean your cannister? Second one was, how often do you syphon the uneaten food and waste out of the gravel? Cannisters should be cleaned monthly, and gravel should be syphoned daily.. could be the source of your nitrite problem.

Having said that, in an established tank, you shouldn't have any nitrites, especially with your ammonia at zero and nitrates around 10. You definately need to increase the amount and frequency of your WCs, and would be best to age the water first, and, check your water supply for nitrites... could be they're coming in with the WCs.

Suggest you go to something a little more heavy duty, such as Prime to treat your water as well. Municipalities have a bad habit of adding things to the water supply that are harmful to your fish, could be part of the problem too, though I suspect Barb is right with the nitrite poisoning.

If you can get your hands on it, you might want to treat with Kanamycin rather than melafix, or if that's not available, something like Maracyn2.

Best bet is always a BB tank, especially when you're heavily stocked.

good luck, and keep us posted
Jim

[CRMW]

Thanks for the advise, it feels far less frustrating now that I'm not shooting in the dark! After checking the expiry dates, I descided that it was time for a new test kit. The results are a little different.

- ph _____ 7.7

- ammonia reading ____ 0

- nitrite reading ____ Less than .10 PPM

- nitrate reading ____ New kit doesn't have one, The old kit was dated Feb 2000 so I'll have to pick up a tester tommorrow.

I have been doing a 25% PWC twice a week and vacuuming the gravel at the same time. The previous owner told me to do a 25% change every other week & clean the filter every three months.

I will up the PWC's to 50% twice daily until the fish stop dying.

I picked up some aquarium salt when I was at the LFS, I assume the salt will have to be added at each PWC. The Supervisor at the LFS beat you to the punch Cosmo, he talked me into buying Prime while I was there.

I'll check on the Kanamycin or Maracyn2 when I get the test kit.

Bare bottom isn't really an option at this time, the tank is a 90 gal wave front show tank, & my wife would replace the discus (or me) rather than have it bare bottom. However I have been thinking about silk plants and diching the live ones.

What temp should the tanks be at during the cure? 84 or should I raise it to kill any bugs?

Thanks for the help, at least now I have some hope for the fish!

Chris

[CRMW]

Well, I have done a 50% water change in the hospital tank, I used Prime & dosed with Salt. I did a 50% change in the wave tank & descided to check the XP# filter, it was very dirty. After rinsing out the media in tank water, I replaced some of the fiber(?) and added an amonia remover insert from my Aquaclear. When I started the canister back up, I ended up doing another 25% change with the gravel vac. due to the amount of junk that came out. My biggest problem now is I'm running out of aquarium salt, I have enough to dose the hospital tank after a 50% change in the AM but the big tank will have to wait until I can get some from the LFS. I checked the salt in the cupboard and it is Iodized, I didn't think the fish would like very much. I have both tanks running at 84 deg & I think (hope) that the two fish that have taken a nosedive tonight are starting to perk up in the hospital tank.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Chris

[Dood Lee]

The first thing I would do once you get your test kits would be to find a way to get your water parameters stabalized. After that, make your way to www.plantedtank.net and register at the forums. Then go to www.rexgrigg.com to learn about keeping a planted tank.

If you're planning on going with fake plants, you might as well go bare bottom. IMO, the gravel will be just a useless decoration that will contribute to your water quality problems.

Keep in mind, you can go to your local grocers to get sodium chloride (look for the non-iodized ones). Should be in the same section as all the other salts. Sodium Chloride is basically the same as aquarium salt, only cheaper.

[CRMW]

The fish in the big tank apear to be a little skittish but OK, the hopsital tank on the other hand is another story. I have been doing 50% PWC twice daily & doesing it with Salt, & Epsom Salt 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons of new water at each change & Maracyn-Two (Just the hospital tank). I had moved the three fish in the worst shape to the Hospital tank when I got it set up, 2 appear to be OK, and the sick one appeared to be getting stronger. I just arrived home to find the sickest fish on its side, or head down & I noticed white fluff floating in the tank & around the gills of the sick fish. I am doing a couple of 75% water changes to get rid of the "fluff". I will dose with salt & epsom salt when the PWC's are done.

Any one have any other ideas?

Chris

[CRMW]

My sick fish in the hospital tank has died, I'm doing a 90% water change in the hospital tank. The two remaining fish in the hospital tank look OK & I,ll continue the Maracyn-two teatments as the package directs. When will it be OK to move them back into the big tank. No other fish are showing any signs of problems, bu I'll keep up daily 50% changes & the salt for a while.

Chris

[Carol_Roberts]

No need to continue adding epsom salt - it is for bloat or constipation.

When doing large water changes it is VERY important that the pH is stabilized. that means the pH is the same in the change water as in the tank. If you do a 90% water change with tap water and your tap is pH 6.8 while your tank is pH 7.8 you will have very stressed discus that will slime up.

[Kindredspirit]

Carol~

That was good information. I did not know that~



Thanks!


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_9_7.gif

[shalu]

I have no experience with tap water ph lower than tank water ph, what Carol said maybe true. However, I do regularly change water with tap ph(7.8-8.0) higher than my tank ph(6.6), about 60% wc, no negative response from discus. Ph spikes to about 7.3 and drops back to 6.6 within an hour through CO2 injection.

[Carol_Roberts]

Discus can tolerate going up in pH - it's the big swing down that stresses them