Nitrates are never zero......

[Kindredspirit]

I was wondering what anyone thought about the fact my nitrates are always 20...and according to the bottle 20 is 'safe'....i can never seem to get it to zero...


nitrites 0
hardness 120
alka 80
pH 7.6
ammonia 0

30 gal
BB
Penguin Bio-Wheel 150/media filter & sponge
HOT magnum
four discus, 4mo old ( i know need a bigger tank)
sponge filter over intake
w/c every day
temp, 88


If i completely understood the chemistry of it all I might understand better, but i just know what my readings should be....correct me if i am wrong, but as long as Nitrites are zero, and zero ammonia too, then things are okay?? My tap water is very close to tank readings as i check that once a week~

I want to know, as most of you do , I am sure, if your nitrates were 20, exactly what would that tell you? I have no clue....shouldnt they be zero too??


Thanks!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_9.gif

[ronrca]

So your tap water has 20ppm nitrates? :-( Only thing you can do is RO or plants. Yes, its a good thing that ammonia/nitrites are 0.

[jesse]

Hello Marie,

20 mg/L is "ok" for adult Discus.
For yound Discus which need to grow well less than 10 mg/L is recommanded.
In fact, some experts say that nitrate above 10 (even 5 for some) slow down and even block the growth discus.

If you want to reduce your nitrate below the 10 or even 5 mg/L, you can setup a denitrator (as I did) :
http://www.bryant81.freeserve.co.uk/page6.html

I used Seachem Matrix Filter Media mixed with Seachem de*nitrate Filter Media inside the spare eheim.

It takes around 3 weeks to get below 10 mg/L of nitrate.

You can use also setup a nitrate sponge filter:
http://www.mjc70.co.uk/setup.htm

You can also plant your tank it helps.

Jess

[Darren]

My nitrates are 5-10 out of the tap and that is where mine stays at all the time regardless of how much/often I do w/c's. Although, I've never been able to grow dinner plate sized discus like some do and I suspect the nitrates may be part of the reason for that. But with that I've always been able to keep discus without problems as a direct result of nitrate readings (as long as they don't get too high).

Are your fish healthy and growing otherwise? If so, I would say you are okay.

[shalu]

It will not be near zero unless you do 100% water changes daily. Ammonia and nitrite convert to nitrate eventually, so nitrate is the end product of biological filtration. You can only remove nitrate by water changes (and plants).

[Kindredspirit]

Shalu~

Thank You Thank You Thank You!!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_24.gif You could not have said that more clear and simple. My fish are very happy and healthy so I figured it was okay!


Darren~

Thanks for the info~My discus are doing great and so far in four months i have never had any problems, except for an incident where i couldnt clear the tank as crystal as i wanted it...but I got the HOT Magnum..


Jess~

Thank you for all your info...but i dont think i shall fix it if itz not broke...lol!! I shall keep your post tho~ ya juss never know!


Roncra~

I do believe my tap is 20 for Nitrates....but i shall make sure and get back to you....is that a bad thing if it is??


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_26.gif

[shalu]

Marie, if your tap really has 20ppm nitrate(I doubt it though), it is not a big deal, I'd live with it. There is a big difference between inorganic nitrate(dosed for planted tanks and typically from tap water if present) and nitrate as an indicator of organic fish waste accumulation. Most people are confused about this, including many discus experts, the way I see it. With fish waste accumulation due to insufficient water changes, dissolved organics build up in the water column and this is the culprit that affect fish health the most. The only easy way to detect waste buildup in water is by measuring nitrate. You will not get the same bad effect by dosing an inorganic nitrate, say KNO3, but like anything, there is always a limit before too much is too much.

[Kindredspirit]

Shalu~


Okay.... Please bear with me....Nitrate = too much fish waste accumulation, due to insuffient wc's and dissolved organics, build up in the water, and when THAT happens, it all turns to Nitrites?? And that is not good....that is how you know something is wrong with your water, correct??

Could you tell me what dissolved organics are??http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_31_4.gif

Tell me something if you would, Shalu, do you do wc every day?? How much??

Thanks!!

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_33_15.gif

[shalu]

and when THAT happens, it all turns to Nitrites?? And that is not good....that is how you know something is wrong with your water, correct??
It will not turn into NO2(nitrite), but it serves as an INDICATOR that there is OTHER bad stuff in your water.



Could you tell me what dissolved organics are??http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_31_4.gif

Think of it as whatever the fish poop/uneaten food is slowly releasing into the water. We can't measure a lot of things directly, but we know nitrate will be also high when those other bad things build up. That's why I said Nitrate is an indicator above, but not necessarily is the problem by itself to some extent.



Tell me something if you would, Shalu, do you do wc every day?? How much??

Thanks!!

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_33_15.gif
No, not daily. Although more water change is always better for fish health, like everything else in life, one has to make compromises to decide when it becomes too much work and get diminish of returns. I observe the health and appetite of my own fish and decide how much water change I am willing to do. I came up with a rough rule of thumb for my fish: 1.5-2 gallons of fresh water per fish per day. I do 2x weekly water changes on my two tanks, and the total volume is the cumulative number based on my rule of thumb. If the compromise means the difference between 7inch fish and 6-6.5inch fish, I will take the compromise. If the amount of work I am willing to do means fish stop eating periodically and results in 4inch stunted fish, then I should either quit keeping discus or put in more work :) My rule of thumb seems to work fine for me, still that's a lot more water change than most people with planted tanks.

[Kindredspirit]

Thank you again, Shalu!!! I copied all your important stuff for my notes....Someday I may know as much as you~


Marie~:angel:

[Willie]

A little science here...

Ammonia (NH3) is converted to nitrite (NO2-), which is converted to nitrate (NO30-). Nitrate accumulates in the water except for some unique circumstances where it gets converted to nitrogen gas (N2) in the absence of oxygen. Of course, other issues arise in the absence of oxygen.

So nitrate is what we eliminate with water changes. Fish release ammonia from their gills. The conversion of ammonia to nitrite is relatively slow, while the convertion of nitrite is relatively fast. So nitrite can only accumulate if your tank is not cycled.

The effect of ammonia on fish is controlled by your tank pH. At high pH, ammonia is toxic. At lower pH, ammonia is relatively non-toxic. In grow out tanks of fry, ammonia can rapidly accumulate and kill off entire spawns if pH is > 7.0.

So if your tank is cycled, then measure nitrate to determine the need for water changes. If you ever get any nitrite reading, then the tank is not cycled.

Willie

[ronrca]

There is a big difference between inorganic nitrate(dosed for planted tanks and typically from tap water if present) and nitrate as an indicator of organic fish waste accumulation. Most people are confused about this, including many discus experts, the way I see it.

Im not a discus expert however Id like more info regarding the difference in the "nitrates". I have a planted tank also therefore Im interested how inorganic nitrate and organic nitrate are different. ;)

From what Ive researched, nitrates are nitrates however Ive never thought there could be a difference. I have heard of tap water having nitrates in it. Had a member with 40+ppm once.

[shalu]

Well, nitrate is only NO3-, negatively charged ion in water. It can come from dosing KNO3, or it might come from fish waste. That's actually not the biggest problem. What really matters is what other organic compounds are in the water, you know those large molecules/ions with carbon in it. I can dose high amount KNO3, say 20-40ppm, after huge water changes, the discus couldn't care less about the nitrate. On the other hand, if I do less water changes and let NO3 go to the same amount by fish waste accumulation, I see reduced appetite, cloudy eyes, etc, you know the typical water quality issues. So NO3- is not the main culprit, it is what other stuff that accompanies NO3- in fish waste. I have tried these things in my tank. But like I said, there will be a point for everything when too much is too much. Tom Barr did some experiment with 120ppm NO3 dosing, all his fish were fine but 50% amano shrimps died, we know that inverts are far more sensitive than fish.

[Willie]

There is no difference between organic and inorganic nitrate. Organic compounds are defined by the presence of carbon atoms. Nitrate has no carbons, so there is no such thing as organic nitrate.

Nitrate will often occur in tap water, primarily in agricultural areas resulting from runoff. Levels of 15 - 20 ppm are not uncommon. Levels of 40 ppm are urban legends since the EPA has a 30 ppm limit. High levels of nitrate are harmful to infants.

Unlike nitrite, nitrate has no acute effect on discus. However, high nitrate levels will definitely stunt growth in young discus. I doubt that long organic molecules will have any effect, since they are rapidly broken down by water borne bacteria.

Willie

[Kindredspirit]

Well ya all lost me on that one!!! lol



http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_1_224.gif

[shalu]

Do a Google search on "doc dissolved organic carbon fish health", you will get many useful hits. Most of the research is done by Koi people. The reason is simple, they also have expensive fish(up to hundreds of thousands of dollars), and they don't have the luxury to do daily 100% water changes like Discus people do.

Here is one article:
http://www.petsforum.com/cis-fishnet/afm/G29011.htm
a short quote:

For example, laboratory studies have shown that high levels of DOC are associated with reduced fish feeding rates, slower growth, decreased reproduction rates, lower immune system activity and blooms of pathogenic bacteria in the water. It is now believed that many of the fish health problems thought to be the result of high nitrates are actually caused by DOCs. (Nitrate is an inorganic nitrogen pollutant, which will be discussed in the second part of this article).

[ronrca]

they don't have the luxury to do daily 100% water changes like Discus people do.
As far as I understand then, DOC's are not something discus nuts need to be that concerned with then. Also, as far as I understand, DOC's will ulitmately be used in the nitrification or nitrogen cycle where nitrate the end result is. Bacteria consumes the carbon from the organics to grow beginning with ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. DOC's basicly are the first step in the nitrogen cycle. I can see where DOC's can cause problems in ponds due to the large volume of water and perhaps lack of sufficient filtering. In our little tanks however, DOC's shouldnt be a factor.

Marie,
If your tap water indeed has 20ppm nitrate, Id recommend a RO filter or a planted filter arrangement. There are a number of plants that will use up your nitrate. I believe that Carol Roberts and Barb are using plants.

[Kindredspirit]

Ron~


I shall check my nitrates in my tap and get back to you!



Marie~:angel:

[shalu]

As far as I understand then, DOC's are not something discus nuts need to be that concerned with then. Also, as far as I understand, DOC's will ulitmately be used in the nitrification or nitrogen cycle where nitrate the end result is. Bacteria consumes the carbon from the organics to grow beginning with ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. DOC's basicly are the first step in the nitrogen cycle. I can see where DOC's can cause problems in ponds due to the large volume of water and perhaps lack of sufficient filtering. In our little tanks however, DOC's shouldnt be a factor.

Marie,
If your tap water indeed has 20ppm nitrate, Id recommend a RO filter or a planted filter arrangement. There are a number of plants that will use up your nitrate. I believe that Carol Roberts and Barb are using plants.
No, DOC will accumulate even with sufficient filtration, just like nitrate. The breakdown is very slow in water with high bioload relative to water volume, which is exactly the case in discus tanks. The break down of DOC is fundamentally different than nitrogen cycling, all the sponge filters in the world will not break down DOC quickly, while ammonia is cycled instantly. Actually like anything, the larger the water body, the better the water quality, relative to bioload. Koi people are more anal about biofiltration than discus people, yes, they have sufficient biofiltration, yes, they have zero ammonia, zero nitrite, perhape high nitrate(actually they discovered an amazing filter, called tricke tower, a basically very tall wet/dry, that can drop nitrate to almost zero if the tower is tall enough, it works very differently than common denitrators).

[ronrca]

Im confused then! From reading some articles on DOC's, they are dissolved organic carbon which come from left over food, fish waste, etc. This source of carbon is consumed by nitrification bacteria such as nitrosomonas and nitrobacter inconjunction with 02. Thus, this is the first step in the nitrogen cycle. Therefore I am unclear how DOC's will accumulate given the setups that we have. Naturally if tanks are not cycled or insufficient filtering, it is clear that DOC's will easily cause problems. However, given our large daily wc's, many DOC will be manually removed or consumed by the bio filter. When comparing ponds and tanks, there are many factors that can affect filtering like 'dead spots' in pond where our bb tanks have a huge advantage. Alos the amount of filtering g/hour in comparsion to a couple of hundreds of gallons and my 75G tank are quite different. Yes, we may have a large bio load however we also perform large wc's.

Or am I missing something?

[shalu]

Im confused then! From reading some articles on DOC's, they are dissolved organic carbon which come from left over food, fish waste, etc. This source of carbon is consumed by nitrification bacteria such as nitrosomonas and nitrobacter inconjunction with 02. Thus, this is the first step in the nitrogen cycle. Therefore I am unclear how DOC's will accumulate given the setups that we have.
yes, you are confused :) DOC breakdown by bacteria is FAR slower than nitrogen cycle. It is NOT the same as "the first step in the nitrogen cycle", that would be too easy if it were.

Yes, large water changes would remove it along with Nitrate. But that was not the point. My point was, if you let Nitrate(from fish waste) accumulate, that means you are not changing enough water. You inevitabally will have high DOC as well. Controlled studies, as well as my own experiment with my own fish showed that dosing nitrate will not have the same effect.

[Kindredspirit]

YOUR confused????


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_1.gif

[Carol_Roberts]

Isn't DOC disolved organic compounds?
So, back to the original post . . .Do you have 20 ppm nitrAtes from the tap? If yes, do you live in farming/ranching country and are you sure your test kit is accurate? Most folks have zero nitrAtes in their tap water. NitrAtes in the tap may mean runoff from cattle/pig farms (manure)

[shalu]

NitrAtes in the tap may mean runoff from cattle/pig farms (manure) more likely from land fertilizer runoffs, think of all the miracle grow and such, inorganic ferts. Lots of concerns raised in the literature on fertilizer pollution.

[Kindredspirit]

Carol~

I just tested my tap again and it is barely 20...the color is barely pink. if that makes sense! My kits all expire in 2006. My fish seem to do fine for the last few and only months i have had them!


Marie~

[ronrca]

My point was, if you let Nitrate(from fish waste) accumulate, that means you are not changing enough water. You inevitabally will have high DOC as well.

O! I see understand now. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :p Thanks for your patience. ;)


the color is barely pink. Hmmm! From the nitrate tests I have done, barely pink meant 5ppm. When the color was dark pink, it was on the high end of the scale. Can you take a pic perhaps? What brand of test kit are you using?

[shalu]

Hmmm! From the nitrate tests I have done, barely pink meant 5ppm. When the color was dark pink, it was on the high end of the scale. Can you take a pic perhaps? What brand of test kit are you using?
I wonder the same. Your kit must go from 20ppm to 200ppm, Marie :) I would get a lower range kit(starts at 5ppm) to get a better reading. I have an Aquarium Pharmaceutical kit, inexpensive, but you have to shake the second reagent bottle really well to get accurate reading(also have an expensive Lamotte kit).

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Guys!


A lower range kit? I never knew.. the one i have is by Mardel, strips that you dip in the tank.. and yes, Shalu the readings are from 20-200...I will see if i can find one with lower readings like you said~



Thanks!

Mariehttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_1_223.gif

[shalu]

that explains it, the dip strips are not very accurate. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit is quite common in fish stores(it uses two bottles of reagent liquid and test tubes).

[ronrca]

:smash:
Sweet! You may not have a problem after all. Let us know your result with the other 'lower' nitrate test. ;) Good going Shalu!

Btw, is it possible to get a nitrate test between 0 and 5? I find that the 0-20ppm tests are not really for discus keepers. As mentioned, my tests barely show up pink. Id like to find a test that can tell me whether I have 1 or 4ppm nitrate.

[shalu]

why do you need that kind of accuracy, ron? You think 1ppm and 4ppm will have a noticeable impact on fish health? 2x per week water change is enough work for me already :) The Lamotte kit has comparison scales of 0.25, 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 4.0, 6.0, 8.0, 10.0ppm nitrate NITROGEN, which translates to (x4.4) 1.1, 2.2, 4.4, 8.8, 17.6, 26.4, 35.2, 44ppm NO3. But it is not cheap, about $50 I think, forgot which site I bought it from already.

...ok, found the link here:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/467/cid/68
$57.

[ronrca]

Thanks shalu! By having a more specific/accurate nitrate test, I can re-evaluate my wc scheme particularly on my growouts. What I mean is I can tell whether I only have 1ppm or 4ppm after a day. If I only have 1ppm after a day, not really imperative that I preform a 50% wc.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Shalu~

So guys, i have been using this kit for months and i have one for ammonia as well~are all my readings been off all this time? Cuz my fish are happier than i am right now....lol

*******~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_9_8.gif


So you want me to get the kit that you put h20 in the little test tube and dunk it up and down, right? For ammonia as well?

I will do that asap, guys!


Thanks!


Marie

[shalu]

we don't know if the reading WERE off for sure, that is a possibility due to the poor reputation of the dip strip tests. Yes, I would get the liquid bottle test kits.

[Dood Lee]

I honestly don't know why stores still sell the "dip strips." They aren't very accurate, and for people that need specific water parameters, the strips aren't that helpful.

[Kindredspirit]

I am feeling picked on, me and my strips!! LOL!


I got I got it!!



http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_20.gif


Marie!

[shalu]

I like the fancy smileys, Marie :)

[Kindredspirit]

You want them dont you, Shalu? Admit it.....http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_13.gif




Thank you!!


Smileycentral.com


Marie~

[shalu]

Yes, I want them, I admit :)
Actually I figured out where you got them by looking at the image links. I will install it when I get some spare time.

[Kindredspirit]

Oh Goodie!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_3_30.gif


We shall have some fun! Hey Shalu i am about to do a wc and i noticed some tiny tiny black dots on my Red Spotted Green x Snowfake...whatever that means, cuz he is really pink! That is why i got him from Cary...but....he is peppering huh? *******....will it go away? It is not a bad thing tho is it??


Marie!

[shalu]

well, sounds like black spots are the peppering http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_10.gif. Unfortunately, lots of discus on the market at least have some pigeon blood in the gene. It will not disappear, I am afraid. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_1.gif

It is only a bad thing if you think it is unsightly. See, my smileys are working.

[Kindredspirit]

I see that! Very cool, Sir......



So...i am stuck with the peppering....oh well...maybe it wont get worse!


Thanks Shalu!


Marie!:angel:

[shalu]

by the way, I bought a red discus recently from sunrisetropicals:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=45366
I got to pick out one from a lot of new arrivals
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_33.gif

[Kindredspirit]

You did?? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/new/8_22/36_1_75.gifoh do tell, Shalu! Tina and i are thinking of going down there and check things out. We are only 76 miles away! But if i go, i know i will want something and i have no where to put one more fish....

What did you get? Please tell me you are pleased....how big? I want some adults, Shalu... I love these guys but they are boring...lol...but i need a 55gal tank before i can get anymore....I have heard good things about Tony. I use to go to school real close to where his shop is. You got to pick one out? Only one?? Where do you live? hmm....

Come on, lets have the scoop! How exciting! Did you name him?


Marie!

[Kindredspirit]

Shalu~

I just checked out your new discus! How beautiful he is, babe. You must adore him! You live in San Jose? I never check anyone's profile. We should all meet down at Tony's once!!

He is so bright! I want him, Shalu!! LOL


Marie!:angel:

[raglanroad]

It will not be near zero unless you do 100% water changes daily. Ammonia and nitrite convert to nitrate eventually, so nitrate is the end product of biological filtration. You can only remove nitrate by water changes (and plants).
http://www.hdltd.com/technical/t_aerobic.html

http://www.hdltd.com/technical/t_24hour.html

and other solutions are available as already mentioned...

doh.. I see you have picked up on something on the fly. this tower is aerobic..does it USE the DOC ? if you deny it a carbon media, it might be interesting..killing 2 birds and all...
actually they discovered an amazing filter, called tricke tower, a basically very tall wet/dry, that can drop nitrate to almost zero if the tower is tall enough, it works very differently than common denitrators.

[raglanroad]

Nitrate will often occur in tap water, primarily in agricultural areas resulting from runoff. Levels of 15 - 20 ppm are not uncommon. Levels of 40 ppm are urban legends since the EPA has a 30 ppm limit. High levels of nitrate are harmful to infants.

Unlike nitrite, nitrate has no acute effect on discus. However, high nitrate levels will definitely stunt growth in young discus. I doubt that long organic molecules will have any effect, since they are rapidly broken down by water borne bacteria.

WillieThere is no difference between organic and inorganic nitrate. Organic compounds are defined by the presence of carbon atoms. Nitrate has no carbons, so there is no such thing as organic nitrate.

I thought Shalu was a little inventive on that one too : ) ...backpeddle till last Tuesday..it's the DOC of course

Nitrate will often occur in tap water, primarily in agricultural areas resulting from runoff. Levels of 15 - 20 ppm are not uncommon. Levels of 40 ppm are urban legends since the EPA has a 30 ppm limit. High levels of nitrate are harmful to infants.

Is this also true for our friends in other countries that are members?

Unlike nitrite, nitrate has no acute effect on discus.

Is it possible that nitrate taken in is converted inside the body to nitrite-as one study on cattle that I read suggests?

[shalu]

http://www.hdltd.com/technical/t_aerobic.html

http://www.hdltd.com/technical/t_24hour.html

and other solutions are available as already mentioned...

doh.. I see you have picked up on something on the fly. this tower is aerobic..does it USE the DOC ?
actually they discovered an amazing filter, called tricke tower, a basically very tall wet/dry, that can drop nitrate to almost zero if the tower is tall enough, it works very differently than common denitrators.


alright, smart a$$, back peddle? I did not want to mention it initially to complicate things, discus keepers typically do not use those systems. Most would get lost once you talk beyond cycling. I have been thinking about setting one up for quite a while if I can have a fish room. I knew that years ago from koi forums. aerobic, duh, that's why I said "very differently than common denitrators", complete opposite. does it USE the DOC ? Most likely it does reduce DOC. Why do I say yes? Users typically report heavy foaming initially when using the tower, similar effect when you use foam fractioner/protein skimmer. I wish somebody with sophisticated scientific instruments can do a study, maybe they did and we just need to know where to look.

Those are two good links by the way, did you dig them up on the fly. It is too easy to assume too much

[shalu]

There is no difference between organic and inorganic nitrate. Organic compounds are defined by the presence of carbon atoms. Nitrate has no carbons, so there is no such thing as organic nitrate.

I thought Shalu was a little inventive on that one too : ) ...backpeddle till last Tuesday..it's the DOC of course

Nitrate will often occur in tap water, primarily in agricultural areas resulting from runoff. Levels of 15 - 20 ppm are not uncommon. Levels of 40 ppm are urban legends since the EPA has a 30 ppm limit. High levels of nitrate are harmful to infants.


Did I even mention "organic nitrate"? I did say "inorganic nitrate", because I want to emphasize the fact that you can add the nitrate without all the organic baggage from fish waste when you want to isolate the effect of nitrate. Discus hobbiests seem to want to blame everything on nitrate, ... and growth inhibit hormones. By the way, there IS organic nitrate(do a google search, you might be able to pick up something on the fly), not necessarily relevent though for our purpose. I don't see anything new in your post that I have not mentioned in plainer terms. cheap test kits can hardly distinguish 30 and 40ppm nitrate.

[raglanroad]

It is true that the term "organic" can be used in more than one sense.

apart from that, are you not changing your tune about the fact that there are other ways to remove nitrate ? you seem to have found that there is a tower that works, soon after posting that there was no other way, but water changes and plants. That's why...on the fly ..learning basics as you teach. Nothing wrong with that.

So what about the tower? what sources of carbon can it use, so that something new is added to your finding?

[shalu]

alright, smart a$$, back peddle? I did not want to mention it initially to complicate things, discus keepers typically do not use those systems. Most would get lost once you talk beyond cycling. I have been thinking about setting one up for quite a while if I can have a fish room. I knew that years ago from koi forums. aerobic, duh, that's why I said "very differently than common denitrators", complete opposite. does it USE the DOC ? Most likely it does reduce DOC. Why do I say yes? Users typically report heavy foaming initially when using the tower, similar effect when you use foam fractioner/protein skimmer. I wish somebody with sophisticated scientific instruments can do a study, maybe they did and we just need to know where to look.

Those are two good links by the way, did you dig them up on the fly. It is too easy to assume too much
what else do you want to know? Did I explain clearly enough above? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_3.gif I can't seem to find anything that we really disagree on here except you are trying to prove only you know all the big words? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_115.gif

Remember this thread was started by a beginner looking for some simple explanations. All the technical jargon is not going to help much, now is it? Now am I going to suggest trickle towers and denitrators as a means to help her reducing nitrate? Not by a long shot. I only briefly mentioned them because somebody else was interested to find out more about organic pollution. I have no experience with either in my own tanks. Not even sure if trickle tower would be as effective on my tank as in a koi pond, because I read reports that it works better in high kh/ph conditions. One day I will find out, I just don't have enough height in my wet/dry right now.

[shalu]

Shalu~

I just checked out your new discus! How beautiful he is, babe. You must adore him! You live in San Jose? I never check anyone's profile. We should all meet down at Tony's once!!

He is so bright! I want him, Shalu!! LOL


Marie!:angel:
Thanks, Marie. I went there(check the web site or call to get the new arrival date) shortly after new shipment came in. oh, my, eye candy! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif They all look so perfect. The red one is only 3.5-4" right now, so still lots of room to grow. Of course, I bought other fish too(smaller ones). I have again reached the limit in my tank http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_201.gif.

Check out this:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=257588#post257588
On 10/30, we are going to Keith's place in San Francisco. He imports the famous Wayne's discus!

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Brat~

I could not sleep so here i am! I thought you forgot about me down there! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_3.gif I never knew this subject could cause so much discussion and more.... So Keith has a store in the City? Where? I wanna go!!! lol....

How fun that will be yes? You bought some babies too, Shalu?? I want my 55gal tank so bad, but sometimes this one is a PIA! I and i know would have more problems in everything~


I am gonna cruise this site and get sleepy!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_8_2v.gif Are you awake?

Marie~

[shalu]

So Keith has a store in the City? Where? I wanna go!!! lol....

I don't think he as a store. It will be at his home. If you really want to go, just voice it in that thread and David will email you the address(San Francisco).

I assume he is going to get a new shipment of Wayne's discus before the meeting. It should be lots of fun and lots of eye candy. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_105.gif

But it is on a Sunday, so sunrise will be closed, you can't visit both on the same day.

[raglanroad]

I tone it down now. The biggest word I used in my last post was s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g. 9 letters.
If you did not do this... "I am afraid you are showing your ignorance here"... you would not be looking like this.The only words I ever spoke to or about you was in agreement with you on advice to learn about planted tanks. Not necessary to go into insults when I did not ever insult you before (or used foul language, for that matter).

As to what you instruct beginners with, why give incorrect information?
Just give correct but limited information.
If you do not know much about DOC, then why bring that up to compensate? It has never been a newbie subject, and you do not explain it well.

[Kindredspirit]

Shalu~

I would love to go, but if it was on a Saturday , perhaps. You must let me know how much fun it was!!



Shalu, go to a post by Greg, and add your name to this cool map that shows the location of everyone....The topic is , i think....Breeder and Stores near you...something like that....

pretty cool~


I have the headache from hell and i am grouchy.....:(

[shalu]

ok, David, this is a little off topic, hope Marie does not mind http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_8_25.gif


I tone it down now. The biggest word I used in my last post was s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g. 9 letters.
If you did not do this... "I am afraid you are showing your ignorance here"... you would not be looking like this.
As to what you instruct beginners with, why give incorrect information?
Just give correct but limited information.
Are you making me look bad, here? nahhh, not at all. That is only in the eye of the beholder.

I DO apologize for calling you the nine letter "I" word in the other thread, I hope you accept it(oops, forgot the smart axx, that too). However, I want to tell you that YOU caused the PERCEPTION of that by exactly what you think is "correct but limited information". To simply say something "works" or something "does not work" can easily be perceived as naive and the nine letter word. Most things "work" and "do not work" at the same time, depending on if you call the bottle half full, or the bottle half empty. Take CaCO3 for example. It is common knowledge that it is not the easiest thing to dissolve in water. The solubility highly depends on PH value as well. Keep in mind that Rex Grigg site is specially geared toward planted tanks, and most of the audience use CO2 and have ph between 6.5 and 7.0. CaCO3 DOES work in these tanks, even though it still dissolves quite slowly. Want proof? how about GH and TDS measurements? So do you still declare CaCO3 does not work?

Another example, you say boifilter in low ph works. Of course it works. You think I have not kept low ph tank? I have news for you, I did have a tank at ph 4.8, lots of peat and RO water, AND CO2. Too many assumptions is dangerous. It was not a discus tank, but an experimental planted tank. The low ph was to see some plant response, not for fish. No discus but I have other smaller fish. Fish were all fine. Some shrimp died, not quite sure whether it was due to low ph or high organic content (too much peat). However, I do believe there are "degrees" of "it works". Suppose we keep two tanks, same filters but different, stable ph, one high, one low. Which one can support higher maximum bioload? The literature that I read with controlled studies suggest the high ph tank can support higher bioload, though I don't have any specific links that I can find right now. Do you have any specific info to the contrary? I genuinely want to know. I also seemed to read that different bacteria strains are at work for low and high ph. At ph crash, the existing bacteria are killed resulting in busted biofilter, causing fish death. No, I don't believe ph change alone kills fish easily either, having dropped fish between high and low ph tanks multiple times without any issues. We do agree on a lot of things. So do you still think declaring that biofilter works in low ph provides much useful information?

I apologize again for the "I" word, I was only trying to defend someone who provides a useful service to the planted tank community and who does not visit this site, but was freely insulted by your remarks. You can go back to the thread and read your comments about Rex Grigg again and see how it sounds like. You might be having fun there but that is a real person too:

Just garbage from Rex and his source, I'm afraid! Straight to your doghouse, Rex. Bad Boy!
Dave


We all have a lot to learn. Truce? See, we actually committed similar sins.

[Kindredspirit]

Rag~


I do not think Shalu was being rude and I was glad for the simple info he gave to me. One has to keep it simple for me, KISS it...LOL! I am sorri, Shalu that you tried to help me and this is what happened....I do not know what you guys are really talking about, but it seems that it is more than juss nitrates! We certainly do not want to have this thread locked as well, now do we? Im thinking , No...


Come on, Guys....this place isnt about who knows the most and the power to post it.....


Can't we all juss get along??? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_11_60.gif


Marie!

[shalu]

Don't worry, Marie. Boys do fight some times, in the end, all is well, http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_11_7.gif

[Kindredspirit]

That Is Good To Hear Boys!!


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_1_220.gif



Marie~

[David_Hui]

Hey, guys you are welcome to come by my work, water treatment plant, and have a tour. We have two large trickling towers and all kind of bacteria. Dave will have to bring some of Oliver's altum and we will tour local discus and plant shops.

[Kindredspirit]

Thank You David!

Shalu was telling me about his visit on the 30th. Sounds like it will be an experience for sure!




Marie~:D

[raglanroad]

ok, David, this is a little off topic, hope Marie does not mind http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_8_25.gif


Are you making me look bad, here? nahhh, not at all. That is only in the eye of the beholder.

I DO apologize for calling you the nine letter "I" word in the other thread, I hope you accept it(oops, forgot the smart axx, that too). However, I want to tell you that YOU caused the PERCEPTION of that by exactly what you think is "correct but limited information". To simply say something "works" or something "does not work" can easily be perceived as naive and the nine letter word. Most things "work" and "do not work" at the same time, depending on if you call the bottle half full, or the bottle half empty. Take CaCO3 for example. It is common knowledge that it is not the easiest thing to dissolve in water. The solubility highly depends on PH value as well. Keep in mind that Rex Grigg site is specially geared toward planted tanks, and most of the audience use CO2 and have ph between 6.5 and 7.0. CaCO3 DOES work in these tanks, even though it still dissolves quite slowly. Want proof? how about GH and TDS measurements? So do you still declare CaCO3 does not work?
I never said it did not work! Read again.
Another example, you say boifilter in low ph works. Of course it works. You think I have not kept low ph tank? I have news for you, I did have a tank at ph 4.8, lots of peat and RO water, AND CO2. Too many assumptions is dangerous. It was not a discus tank, but an experimental planted tank. The low ph was to see some plant response, not for fish. No discus but I have other smaller fish. Fish were all fine. Some shrimp died, not quite sure whether it was due to low ph or high organic content (too much peat). However, I do believe there are "degrees" of "it works". Suppose we keep two tanks, same filters but different, stable ph, one high, one low. Which one can support higher maximum bioload? The literature that I read with controlled studies suggest the high ph tank can support higher bioload, though I don't have any specific links that I can find right now. Do you have any specific info to the contrary? I genuinely want to know. I also seemed to read that different bacteria strains are at work for low and high ph. At ph crash, the existing bacteria are killed resulting in busted biofilter, causing fish death.
No, I don't believe ph change alone kills fish easily either, having dropped fish between high and low ph tanks multiple times without any issues. We do agree on a lot of things. So do you still think declaring that biofilter works in low ph provides much useful information?
Yes, entirely useful.. because of the tremendous input saying it does not..to raise the issue once again, that it does, because the "myth" that it does not function at low pH predominates in advice given to someone wanting to know about low pH tanks
I apologize again for the "I" word, I was only trying to defend someone who provides a useful service to the planted tank community and who does not visit this site, but was freely insulted by your remarks. You can go back to the thread and read your comments about Rex Grigg again and see how it sounds like. You might be having fun there but that is a real person too:correct. let's revisit the site on another thread sometime and sort out what I see as inconsistent and /or wrong info?



We all have a lot to learn. Truce? See, we actually committed similar sins.sure, sounds like the thing to do, and good to talk it out.
Dave

[ronrca]

Sheesh! I go to bed and look what happens. Both of yous just cool down a a bit. Im not interested in who can personally try to belittle the next in creative english. The Simply's mission statement makes mention of our conduct therefore plz reread your posts and edit them accordingly. Otherwise I will be contacting a mod to do it for you.

Now, for the discussions sake, please provide some items for discussion that is being disagreed upon. From reading the last 10 posts, I cant see what your disagreeing about. Not only that, you guys are bringing in other topics from other threads. Dont bother! This thread is about nitrates thus keep it that way.

Thanks

[Kindredspirit]

Okay~

It is funny how things happen when one shuts one's eyes, yes? Anyways........i bought a new testing kit to test Nitrates more accurate! I bought a five in one, with little test tubes like suggested~ not strips....It is called the Freshwater Master Test Kit: Fast, Easy , Accurate and it had better be for the price! LOL

I shall keep ya all posted!


Marie~:angel:

[raglanroad]

Hey David, What kind of koi do they have at the treatment plant? :o

[David_Hui]

Big fat brown ones :o