Hard akaline water and breeding

[discusboy777]

If my discus are striving in hard akaline water. will they still attempt to breed and the eggs will just not be fertile? Is there any one with exsperince with this?

Thank you.

[tpl*co]

Having to deal with that right now. The eggs turn white (and I know this male is OK since he fertilized eggs with his previous owner, just my water conditions aren't right).

He's doing everything he should too. I'm still fiddling with the water, they should be trying another spawn soon (these guys breed like clockwork every 7-8 days or so)

I'm trying 50% RO and a pH around 6.5 with this go around. My hardness has dropped from 4 to 2. I'll let you know how it goes and if this worked with the next batch (still in the learning curve :)).

Tina

[Carol_Roberts]

Some of my discus will lay eggs and the male will fertilize in my GH 12 water. The eggs usually all turn white and I clean them off the pot during a water change. When I Mix 50% RO with the tap water most of the eggs hatch - even though the pH is still 7.6+

[Jeff]

Brad,

My water is like yours. That is why I do not enjoy breeding. I had to use RO to get good spawns. I had a pair of VR that would do well in tap, but most will just spawn, and the eggs turn white. If you mix in RO you will get better results.

[jules]

Mine are reared in hard alkaline water, not as alkaline as
Jeff's, but GH 15- don't know ph exactly, around 7.5.
What I did when I was trying to get some fry, was as soon as I saw signs(specifically ovipositer descended more than usual) I would add some fresh peat pellets in my aquaclear. This quickly dropped the GH down to about 10 (over a 24 hour period). At that point hopefully she hadn't laid eggs yet. I would get at least a 50% hatch rate at GH 10. The male was very competent. The pair never suffered any detrimental effects from the softening of h20 in the ac.

Julie

[tpl*co]

Some of my discus will lay eggs and the male will fertilize in my GH 12 water. The eggs usually all turn white and I clean them off the pot during a water change. When I Mix 50% RO with the tap water most of the eggs hatch - even though the pH is still 7.6+


Carol,

Someone told me on this board to add formaldehyde to keep the eggs from turning white? Do you add anything after they lay eggs to prevent fungus/turning white? I'm a little reluctant to add the formaldehyde since it is a known carcinagen (plus who knows what it could do to the fish!).

[discusboy777]

Carol,

Someone told me on this board to add formaldehyde to keep the eggs from turning white? Do you add anything after they lay eggs to prevent fungus/turning white? I'm a little reluctant to add the formaldehyde since it is a known carcinagen (plus who knows what it could do to the fish!).

The reason the eggs turn white in the hard water is becuse the eggs harden before the sperm can get to them if i am not mistaking.

Thanks you all for the help this has been a good discusion lol.
Regards.

[Jeff]

You are correct brad.

If all water parameters are correct and you worry about eggs fungus then you can add either: Formalin, Meth Blue 1 drop a gallon, or some HP. They will all do the same.

[tpl*co]

Well, my fish bred again last night and they looked good this morning, but were white when I got home. Jeff, is hp hydrogen peroxide? or ? If I add any more distilled water my hardness will be close to 0. (at 50% it is 2).

[Jason]

if you use hp only dose once! its a strong oxidiser

[tpl*co]

if you use hp only dose once! its a strong oxidiser


But what is hp, and what concentration?

Yes, the eggs were white and I got close to see if they were "fuzzy" and they were, so fungus. They were darker last night too. I had to take the eggs off the cone so they can get ready next week to breed again and the male was really PO'd at me! But if I didn't they'd be watching those eggs, I stick my hands in and they are almost constantly watching that cone. They want to have babies so bad! I know I'm getting close :). I'm getting the DI so far from the LFS (until I spring for a unit), mixing with my water and adjusting pH. Next week I'll try adding something to keep from fungusing.

I've read differing opinions on how often to do a water change? If I have a pair in a 30 how often do you change the water and how much. I see some say not to do it while they are breeding? I want to at least scoop the poop!

[Carol_Roberts]

hp = hydrogen peroxide. I never add anything to the water. My fertilized eggs in RO/tap mix (GH 6) do not fungus. Only dead eggs fungus.

[Moon]

Two of my guys in a grow out tank (125g) spawned and that was about 24 hours ago. All the eggs appear to be viable and non fungessed. My water is very hard at 350 to 400 ppm and ph 8.3 straight out of the well. It will be interesting to see if these will hatch. I will find out when I go home tonight. I am not too keen on this pairing. The male is PB and female SS. So I will let them stay in the grow out tank and see what happens.

[tpl*co]

My eggs turn white at around 36 hours :(. Next time I'll try wiping down the tank, an even BIGGER water change prior and either Meth blue or formalin after and see what happens.

[Greg Richardson]

Moon. Please keep us updated on how they do. My PH in high range also. Thanks!

[jules]

Your water is too alkaline - the sperm can't penetrate the eggs.
Disregard the PH, and focus on adjusting the GH.
Stop dosing the tank, you're going to ruin your bio.

Julie

[Moon]

When I got home last night about 90% of the eggs had fungussed. The male was still diligently standing over the eggs. I left a night light on overnight. This morning all the eggs were gone. As I said am not too keen on this pairing but it was a good experiment.

[Carol_Roberts]

My understanding is that eggs fertilized in hard water slowly suffocate as the eggshell hardens due to the minerals in the water. Get your GH under 9 and some will hatch. GH 6 should make a good sized hatch.

[discusboy777]

Has any one here had a good succes using peat moss for Very hard water like mine and moons? And had discus succesfully spawn?

[Moon]

Brad
I did try peat moss in my storage tank. I had a large nylon bag filled with Canadian Sphagnun peat moss soaking in the barrel for months. The result: no change. This is because my well water is very, very hard with a ph of 8.2. It may also be because I was using the wrong type of peat. This is the only type of peat I can get in large quantities at a reasonable price.
Now I use RO for my breeders. Well water is great for my Tanganikan chiclid tank.

[jules]

My PH is 8 after aeration.

Julie

[Greg Richardson]

Brad. Thought I read where someone was using peat pellets.
Don't know about the spawning part though.

[Carol_Roberts]

peat will lower GH, but not enough if your water is hard. Mine is GH 12. I need to do 50/50% RO and tap.

[tpl*co]

Carol, what type of RO unit do you have? I'm experimenting by getting premade RO from the LFS for 50 cents a gallon. Of course this is only a short term sollution (especially when 3 gallons spilled out in the trunk of my car last week and I'm still drying it out!). Do you have it plumbed in? Is it pretty easy to use?

Tina

[jules]

My tank is 29 gallons. I have a small ac on there, I add fluval peat pellets in a nylon stocking when I see indicators the pair are going to spawn.
My water is GH 15, the peat in the ac lowers the water to around GH 10.
At GH 10 I get atleast a 50% hatch rate.
Unfortunately the pair eat the free swimmers.

Julie

[Griz]

jules, I have a similar set-up to yours. A 33 gal with an AC 200. I also use a nylon stocking with Fluval peat granules. I find that it lowers my GH from 10 to 8-7 and my KH from 6 to 4. Oddly, the pH is virtually unchanged, I have a steady 7.5. BTW, I love the look of peat stained water.

[jules]

It takes 24-maybe 36 hours to decrease the GH 5 degrees.
I use new peat pellets each time they spawn.
I like the appearance of the tannin stained water also.
There is a member who used to post here; he made peat bombs; and had the water prepared before going in the tank.

Julie

[discusboy777]

The reason i ask is i to have also tried to use peat moss i used the canadian spaghum peat and It did nothing noticable. I am going to break out the old ro unit and get some new seals and filters next week.

[jules]

You're too close to the ocean. I don't think it's easy to alter water with GH over 20.

Julie

[Willie]

Folks;

Your eggs are turning white because the water is too alkaline. High level of calcium in the water causes the egg membrane to thicken and prevent sperm penetration. The ONLY way to overcome this is to add RO water. Using methylene blue, formaldehyde, etc. is not going to do anything for you. Neither will adjusting pH with buffers, acids, etc. do anything.

As everyone's experience shows, discus will grow and spawn in hard water. The only problem is one of egg development. When you see your pair clean a surface for spawning, make a large water change with R/O water -- 50% or 75%. Once they spawn and wrigglers pop, you can resume water changes with regular tap water.

Good luck, Willie

[Carol_Roberts]

Yep :)

[Mughal]

My GH is abour 12. Does this mean that I don't have to add RO water unless I decide to breed the discus? What about the discus's well being and stuff, does it really matter?

[KIWI13]

12 aint too bad, I keep mine at 9°gh, by mixing 50% ro and 50% tap, the tap water here had alot of mineral content and hence a gh of 18° so I have no choice.
12 should be ok as long as your not trying to breed em. The most important is not what degree be it ph or gh you keep em at, ( ofcourse being reasonable with the requirements of the species) its keeping the parameters stable thats the key to healthy fish. its fluctuations in temp, ph, gh, that weaken your fish and make them prone to disease.

sincerely

Jason :)

[Carol_Roberts]

Mine swim in GH 12 everyday unless I'm trying to get eggs to hatch. AS soon as the eggs hatch I start doing WC with GH 12 water to acclimate the new fry.

[Mughal]

Thanks alot, that makes me feel better about my GH plight:) :)

[tpl*co]

Well, I did all the suggestions prior to the Monday clockwork breeding time (female likes monday afternoons :)). Did about a 30% water change Sunday, and another 70% Monday morning with about 80% RO mix and pH adjusted to about 6.6. Well, the eggs looked good, I added something to help the eggs not fungus and I think this stressed them out since the next afternoon all the eggs were gone (and these guys usually watch the white eggs till the cows come home). A cichlid expert at the LFS suggested I use an herbal fungicide/ich medicine (I think it's called Ich Attack) since it was more natural than the meth blue route. Could it be since the eggs looked good and weren't white they got confused and ate them? (they were getting little black dots in the center too :(.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hard to say what prompted them to eat their eggs . . . .