TERMS ..........

[american breeder]

AB

[Green Country Discus]

AB, really appreciate your input on the genetics topic. Seems that everyone is either guarded with their secrets or don't know what they are talking about. Why don't you write a book?? I would buy it. Can you give me some background on the development of the Red Melon strain. Mine throw a varity of offspring..as far as varients go. Thanks again for your input!!!!!! Keep smiling.

[Green Country Discus]

I would love to see a pic of your albino yellow face solid red. Thanks for your reply. I will try a batch of diamonized red melons soon (set up this am), as for jin rintise, I like two olives LOL. My red melons were sold as super and throw 2 variants beyond what you mentioned, both very pretty IMO. 5% dot dash red turk, and rose red. Keep the info comming.

[Condor]

Couple of random questions (rookie as they may be)

Why are blue diamonds shiny? I love blue in discus especially in the fins, but I dont like the metallic look...

Can you comment on crossing domestics with wilds? I think it would be cool to have a domestic with wild traits or vice versa. Waste of time?

Adrian

[Jason]

Marc,

I'm sure just about every fish breeder would like to create new types and strains and we are always scouring each spawn we have, looking, hoping, wondering if we will find something new and unique that we can call our own. Its not like winning the lottery, its not like winning the superbowl, Its a feeling of luck, acomplishment and pride that words do not describe. Its also heart-breaking at times too.

Although we are still relatively new to discus breeding(compared to koi and goldfish) Most of us will only improve upon or change somebody elses lines, and really most of those fish will just be a combination of other types and most of those types are still not to different from what is in the amazon. For me personaly the utimate achievment would be discovering a new mutation. as there are very few true discus mutations blue diamond, ghost, snowflake, albino, PB, etc.

In your opinion what would the best aproach be when looking for true mutations to increase your odds of finding one.

Line breeding established strains and eventually one will pop up?

Randomly crossing fish from different lines?

Going to the amazon and searching for fish expressing a new mutation?

or maybe working with fish that have not been bred very much like heckels, colombian discus, or populations in rivers and streams that have not been fished....yet?

or is it just plain luck or a numbers game?

obviously a few of the above would be impractical, is there any practical approaches for finding mutations? I know Shmidte-Focke tried x-rays but that did'nt work out for him.

[David_Hui]

Marc,

At what size would you expect to see a change if there is a morph? I can't image any of us, hobbyist, have the space or the resources to rise that many fish to actually see something different.

Thanks

David

[David_Hui]

Marc,

That's pretty cool. Did you mean at one inch you could tell the different in term of color or pattern? Or, do you have to grow them larger in order to determine the differences.

Thanks

David

[Jason]

hi Marc,

If your line breeding a strain and start getting the tell-tale signs of genetic decay poor growth, small adults, takes them 24 months to mature etc.

when you outcross what do you do? and how far back does it does it push the program?

[JimmyL]

AB: You're really ahead of everyone including the world recognized creator of Albino discus Mr. Wong in Hong Kong by at least 10 years. I thought I saw the first Albino BD hidden at the back of the hatchery of the creator in 2003. You had them at 1994. Was it documented anywhere. You're the greatest...... Every fish that you posted are albinos. Can you have close up of their eyes and please just don't say.. yes, they are .. trust me....I need facts... facts... and facts please.
Jimmy

[JimmyL]

Can you show it to me please. I 've never seen that and that's not what it was documented. The first solid yellow appeared on 2000 by Robert Chin from Malaka, Malaysia. It had caused an uproar in Aquarama. His not even breeding true until today. You seems to have them breed true and completley solid many years ago. I'm still waiting for the 12" discus. Your claims seem too good to be true. With your permission. I'll send your claims to Malaysia discus association and Japan and have them change their records. I'll have Martin Ng. The past founder and past president of Discus Society of Malaysia varify with you an change his records as AB for creators of 30 different type of discus that breed true. He has discus catelogue written documented each discus and how each of them were created published by AquaCare Worldwide. Published in 2004 or simply check www.aqucare.com.my Should I send you a dead fish instead..... Have a good day.
I wonder if you know there is such thing as Discus Catelogue exist and each discus was documented and the date of they first appeared in discus shows. Don't make any flase claims please..
Jimmy.

[tlum]

Jimmy,

If it is too good to be true, it is too good to be true. Don't waste your time and energy here with AB. It doesn't worth it.

Terry

[candyl70]

Wow Terry... that was pretty harsh.





http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_6.gif



Candy

[raglanroad]

Don't worry, Kumar ,it's very interesting confusion. That means it's not the same old re-hash.
AB has named the source of his albino. That is pretty well straightforward... Do you guys recognize Lennie Laboe ?

[David_Hui]

Who is "Lennie Laboe" ?

[crimson cross]

Lenny had the first documented batch of albino frys way back in the good old days..hth...but I did not know that he had a chance to sell any...lol...
Discus history 101

[Dave C]

Fiction can be interesting confusion too, so long as you know it's fiction.

[JimmyL]

Albino doesn't come as a batch. Today's F3 pairs albino can only net 20-30% albino fry and the death rate is still high just because they are blind like everyone of us.. This factors into the price. Penang is still in the process of setting up hatchery exclusively for Albinos. Our members in the forum are way ahead of the game by 20-30 years. Most have never seen a true Albino....Not every fish with eyes are called Albino... It is not a name like John, Paul, George and Ringo.... It's in a genes... Not every red eyes is albono. They may just have too much to drink...
I'll stay away from this topic just let the blind leading the blind like the albinos. It's a sad, sad case. I'm at the point of giving up to explain what's discus. Hopeless....That's why real discus people stay off this forum.... Terry is not harsh. He is generous. You have to know his parents were breeding the brown discus.He knows what he is talking about.
Jimmy.

[cobaltblue]

For the most part i enjoy AB comments and knowledge. I dont think you need to be so negative towards him. If you dont like what he says, just move on and ignore him. I for one want to see him stay on this board.:)

[CliffsDiscus]

Who is "Lennie Laboe" ?

Hi David,
I'll ask Lennie or Margaret if they would want to attend the next Bay Area Discus Meeting.

Cliff

[David_Hui]

Cliff,

Sounds good, we should have another one in Jan, 2006 only if we could wait that long.

David

[CliffsDiscus]

wow

lennie is still around

does he still have the albino

thats the question well anyway Lennie your the first
not Mr Wong in Hong kong

haha

AB

Hi Marc,
Lennie is around, and his partner at that time was or still lives very near your home.

Cliff

[raglanroad]

Hmm...things are not adding up here... from some literature; two parents that carry albinism but don't show it have a 25% chance of passing it to an offspring.

Jimmy says that of linebred Albino f3, that the rate for albino offspring is about that much from 2 parents SHOWING the albino trait.

Why are these albino pairs producing only a small percentage?

On top of that, we have this catalog , which records all data ..and of course, the people entering the data are impartial and know everything.

So did Lennie have the first on record , or Mr Wong I leave it to you, Jimmy.There must be something I miss here. Just please don't break out the ukelele.

Dave

[raglanroad]

Here is an article about the first breeding albinos in 1976. I can't access it, but you get the general idea?

Is this Mr Wong too?
What's going on here- I don't get it Jimmy !
Only those critiquing writing style or attitude are left now. http://www.cichlid.org/BBIndex/BB056.html

[raglanroad]

I just thought it might be about Lennie. My pc can't do anything. Maybe it is a for-pay site.

But here is a pic, and is this the albino from HK? albino-esque-ish a little, perhaps?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fvdhart/hongkong/index.htm

And another mention of albino discus from 1977 TFH mag 25, article by R. J. Goldstein.

[raglanroad]

So what could be the reason that the albinos from HK have so few offspring showing albinism ? Maybe this is getting right to the point- who says they are albino? "The world" ? the catalog?

[crimson cross]

Lenny's albino is documented in an old discus book titled"Discus" written by Tony Silva and Barbara Kotlar(TFH 1980). I don't think the Asian breeders had them first, it's right here in N. Cali....hth.
Lenny's albinos were throw-outs from royal blues.

[raglanroad]

Thank You, Crimson Cross! Something fishy is going on here, and I want to figure it out. It does seem that the HK fish as first albinos is a joke.

[Paul Lucas]

But here is a pic, and is this the albino from HK? albino-esque-ish a little, perhaps?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fvdhart/hongkong/index.htm


I think you'll find that this fish pictured on Fon's site is indeed a 'rabbit eye' and it was marketed in Duisburg 2003 by Sam Ng - from . . . . Hong Kong ;)

Paul Lucas

[RiverCitiDiscusII]

Hi, The Len and Silva LoBue, Albino Discus is pictured in two books 1) Discus, by: Tony Silva and Barbara Kotlar, on page 18, photo by Alfred Castro. Additional information on page 17. 2) Handbook of Discus, by: Jack Wattley, page 77.
Should anyone want additional information concerning the Albino Discus, by the LoBue's, their email address and phone number appear in FAMA, as they now sell R/O Units from Discus Haven......the name used when they sold discus!
Hope this helps................Al

P.S. I know for a fact that Len and Silav were still selling Royal Blue Discus back in the early 80's that threw albino offspring.......as I spoke with them personally........ now I wish I had gotten some!!

[raglanroad]

Thanks,Paul. It may have "eyes", but it sure does not have complete lack of pigment. This is the problem here, to some extrent. The folks are accusing AB of not showing albinos, yet they have no description that fits discus for "albino".
If it is total lack of all pigmentation, that is a joke, of course.If it is lack of melanin, only, they have not showed a fish to be a true, pure albino yet.
Of course, they all make comments, but none make any sense .
It would seem to me, that the answer lies in this: that fish such as Lennie and AB got are the random happening that produces albino.Then AB applied this fishes' traits to modify his stock.
The Hong Kong version of albino- could they be "MAN MADE REPLICAS " of albinos- done through extensive inbreeding-not to produce more albinism, but to foster the reduced-pigmentation traits, or washed out pigmentation, that the owners could get, to produce a "pseudino".

Al, thank you. We are getting to the hard facts now, I think. The albino appeared in N.A. first, not HK. Probably not even having any real albino genetics in HK.

[tlum]

This is my last post on Albino discus. I promise. I will do it in question and answer format.

1. Who created Albino fish? Albino fish is not created by man, but by God. It is a mutation in genes that control the production of melanin that happened in all living organisms, including human, fish, and even plant. God created the albino mutation and someone discovered it. Albino is not a human creation.

2. What is Albino: the mutation of one or several genes that make a living organism (man, fish, plant, etc.) unable to produce melanin. Melanie is the pigment that gives living organism darker color and is important to protect living organism from the damage effect of ultra-violet from the sun.

3. Is there only one form of albino: No there are several forms of albino, but, they do share a common characteristics – red eye. The red color come from the color of blood inside the eye. Without melanin, the red color of blood in the eye ball can be seen outside.

4. Is all forms of albino a recessive trait: my research so far indicates that all albinos are recessive traits. What does it mean: In order to show any albino characteristics, you need to have a pair of albino genes in the same organism. Some people or animals carry the gene but do not have any albino traits. Their skin color, hair color, and pupil color look “normal”. These people can be you or me. We don't call them or us albinos.

5. Is all albinos breed 100% true: Albino here refers to organisms that show albino traits – lighter skin color, lighter hair color, and red pupil. So far, the scientific evidences and genetic theory point to a positive answer. In scientific method, we do not say we are 100% sure about something. What we can say is, so far, there is no evidence to support otherwise. Research in the last many decades could not reject the argument that two albino parents will give 100% albino babies. It only takes one exceptional case to reject a theory. But, so far, in the last few decades, not such exception has been scientifically documented. Not a single case.

6. Why is it so difficult to find albino in the wild: Lack of Melanie makes the organism stands out from the background and becomes an easy pray for any larger animal. Albino animals cannot hide themselves from the surrounding environment. Many albino fish also have eye problems that reduce their chance of survive.

7. Why so much talk about red eye: Unless you can do a genetic analysis, otherwise, having red pupil is one of the best indicators for albino in animal. It is the best way to distinct albino trait from white trait. Snow white discus does not have red pupil.

8. Are all albino look alike? No. For example, in human being, we can have albino Asian, albino Caucasian, albino African American, etc. They carry their own ethnic traits – facial feature, etc). But they also show characteristics of albino – lack of Melanie pigment, lighter color skin, white hair, etc. You can have a Chinese with white skin, white hair but, otherwise, looks like a Chinese. In discus, you can have albino BD, albino SS, albino turq. They also show red eye and lack the dark pigment. But they all retain the traits of their own strain – turq, SS, BD, etc. Albino trait does not suppress the development of those strain specific traits.

9. Can we have albino from non albino parents? Yes, as long as both parents carry one albino gene. As a recessive trait, any adult that carries a single albino gene will not exhibit any albino trait. When we breed two albino gene carriers, they will give you 25% albino babies. I think this was how Lennie Laboe and many others got their albino. Many breeders also use intermediate non-albino fish to produce albinos. The 25% is the percentage at birth or the percentage of eggs that carry two albino genes. However, many albino babies die in the first few days. The dead rate is much higher than the non-albino babies because of the eye problem. It is why the percentage is usually much lower than 25%. If you can read Chinese, the Hong Kong discus forum reported several births of albino babies from a pair of non-albino Alenquer this year alone. However, sadly, all albino babies died in the fist few days. It is why albino is so expensive and relatively rare.

10.Who is the first person to discover albino discus? I don’t know why we care about this. Albino is a naturally occurring trait. Do we care who first discover rainbow? If you can only read English, most likely your conclusion is that Lennie Laboe was the first person who reported seeing albino discus. But, I think there are many other people in US who saw albino discus from their non-albino pairs but did not report what they saw. if you know the European and Asian discus communities or able to read other languages, you may hear other stories – verbal or written. Once again, Albino is a naturally occurring event, and why do we care who first discovered albino discus.

11. Who first breeded a pair of albinos? I don’t know. It seems that Mr. Laboe discovered some albino babies from his non-albino pair. But he did not breed albino pair. I may be totally wrong here. AB claimed that he breeded true albinos in early 90s. Jimmy said that Mr. Wong was the first one who breed true albino in late 1990s. But, again, who care. Right now, breeders in SE Asia is producing Albinos in a much bigger volume than before.

12. Who first commercialized Albino discus? I don’t know. However, both AB and Jimmy, and the story I heard in Hong Kong, seems to agree that Mr. Wong in Hong Kong is the first one who successfully producing and selling a large number of albino to other breeders. It also seems that the first documented commercial selling of albino discus happened only a couple years ago.

13. So why do I spent so much effort trying to clarify what is an albino discus? I know someone who bought two so call “yellow albino” and “red albino” from a seller and later found out they did not have any albino trait – no red eye. They are just a clean red/white and a clean yellowish white discus. He had trouble selling these fish to other hobbyists as albino when he tried to get out from the hobby. I feel sorry for him and feel compelled to clarify what an albino is. I don’t think any new hobbyist should go through this again.

I think I have done my part to clarify what is an albino discus. It is up to other members to make a decision on what is an albino discus, if you care about that decision. As I said, I will not post anymore on this topic. There are many resources on the internet about albino. However when you do your research, make sure the information is reliable.

Regards,

Terry

[DarkDiscus]

Excellent post, Terry!

[raglanroad]

Why does it matter? for one thing, people were complaining that AB was not telling the truth. those people have mostly fizzled out. It matters because the attacks were plenty, and now that we are digging a little deeper, showing now who is right and who is not, the attackers are making themselves scarcer than rabbit eyes.
Statements are being proven wrong here, we're getting down to it now.

Terry, your post does indicate a reasonable approach to the subject.

However, I do not think that the Wong fish have been agreed upon here as even from albino stock. Red eyes..a sign of albinism, but can other fish that are not true albino show this also?

Is there reason to say that fish with red eyes can only be showing true albino traits? Or can red eye be produced from extensive line-breeding on weakly pigmented fish- and maybe thus avoiding some of the health complications that true albinos might have (which is not only poor sight) .

Could the HK fish be not albino, as the same genetic componment in natural fish albinism, but just weakly pigmented fish, showing in the eye?

Might as well get right to the bottom of this instead of leaving it hanging out there.

[Elcid]

Dear AB :D Please send your check to:

(Edited due to a violation of site policy)

thanks!

[raglanroad]

AB, I am no judge of discus. So my statement had nothing to do with quality of fish.

what I am digging for is to find out what all this is about. Since the reaction to your statements has been very peculiar, I want to know why !
So if I throw out a few questions as to the facts, don't think I am judging the fish in any way, I don't have the skills. From the "facts" presented by others, I drew the next questions. this does lead to dead ends sometimes of course.

I am also digging to find out who is who . Always interesting to check it out when there is a concerted effort by some to contain/hush an individual.

D

[ronrca]

2. What is Albino: the mutation of one or several genes that make a living organism (man, fish, plant, etc.) unable to produce melanin. Melanie is the pigment that gives living organism darker color and is important to protect living organism from the damage effect of ultra-violet from the sun.

I have found sources stating:
The altered gene does not allow the body to make the usual amounts of a pigment called melanin.
http://albinism.med.umn.edu/newfacts.htm#class



3. Is there only one form of albino: No there are several forms of albino, but, they do share a common characteristics – red eye. The red color come from the color of blood inside the eye. Without melanin, the red color of blood in the eye ball can be seen outside.



http://albinism.med.umn.edu/newfacts.htm#class


In the 1990's, we have been able to identify the genes involved in most types of OCA, and have found that the classifications based on hair, skin and eye color is not accurate and that it was better to classify OCA types based on the specific gene involved. Albinism cannot be taken just by the red eye unless this is only specific to humans. Perhaps it is however I dont know if limited only to humans.

Interesting study of albino fish and sunlight:
http://www.utpb.edu/scimath/vitae/allenCV.shtml

Im coming to the conclusion that while there may be a scientific defination what true albinism is (lack of melanin), the outward appearance may vary thus there may not be such thing as a true albino in fish.

[Condor]

I find this topic very fascinating and am trying to keep up. One or two questions, forgive me it they are behind the times as I am a novice in this subject. If albino traits are recessive, how can they be used in creating strains. Is this where the diamond cross comes in? To compliment rather than blot out the albino genes?

[ronrca]

When albinos are crossed, a certain % of the offspring will carry this recessive gene. I looked up recessive on www.dictionary.com

Of, relating to, or designating an allele that does not produce a characteristic effect when present with a dominant allele.

Allele means one member of a pair or series of genes that occupy a specific position on a specific chromosome.

So, the albino 'trait' will be passed on to some of the offspring which you can then farther take and refine it OR you can take other offspring and refine their traits.

[CliffsDiscus]

Lenny's albino is documented in an old discus book titled"Discus" written by Tony Silva and Barbara Kotlar(TFH 1980). I don't think the Asian breeders had them first, it's right here in N. Cali....hth.
Lenny's albinos were throw-outs from royal blues.

Phil(crimson) wow, you still got that book. Tony Silva currently writes for
the Aquarium Fish Magazine.


Other Discus literature mention about Ablinos in TFH are:
Albino Discus July 1972
The Albino Discus by Goldstein, June 1977, already mention by Dave
Ostrow, Albino Discus...A Startling New Reality, October 1976

Back in the 60's and 70's there were many pioneer Discus Breeders,
Jack Wattley in Florida with his turquoise, Mac Galbreath in Fresno,
California, for his Powder Blues, Dr.Wall with his Wall Colbalt in Southern California, later Dr.Wall
would sells his business to Bing Seto in 1970, this is where Bing originally got
the colbalt name, and Lennie LoBue in Morgan Hill, California for his Albinos.
Most of these breeders had one thing in common besides $$ most of them raise their
Discus away from the parents. Using artifically raising methods became
commercialize after Carroll Friswold publising in Pasadena, California back probably around mid 60's.
At that time California was booming with many breeders with the
flooding of Discus mostly from Mr.Chan, (Fairly Lake Discus). As for
where Lennie got the orginal pair of Discus that had Albinos, many
breeders claim that it was their Discus that Lennie bought give out
the Albinos but most of these breeder bought their Discus from
none other than Mr.Chan, (Fairly Lake Discus).

I did visit Lennie but not to buy any Albinos, at that time mostly breeders were
looking for Discus with Blue or turquoise color. I really think that Lennie didn't
sell that many Albinos but sold more of his egg yolk formula. LOL

Cliff

[David_Hui]

Cliff,

Why should South East Asia be the hot spot for Discus when we have so many talented discus breeders in California?

David

[Dave C]

Cliff, where does Marc Lotus / Mark Fleishman fit into that history? Do you still buy his fish regularly? Do you have any for sale right now that I could see a pricelist for? IM me details if you'd like.

[tlum]

Cliff,

Thanks for the history. For those who still have the hard copy of these articles, would you please making a copy and send it to me. I will find out way to pay for the postage and copy costs. I am sincere. I am very fond of Albino fish and would like to know more the written history of albino discus in the US. Pleae PM me if you need my address.

Also, just a friendly reminder, with no disrespect to Mr. Chan or other great breeder, please don't forget where did Mr. Chan cut his teeth in discus. I think he did not learn it in Califorina, but in Hong Kong. I practice Taekwondo and Taichi. The fact that I learn these arts from great masters in US does not mean that Taekwondo and Taichi are more advance in here than in Korea or China. I am not saying breeders (or hobbyists) in HK or Asian are better than breeder, just be humble.

Regards,

Terry

[David_Hui]

Terry,

That's true, I was talking to Mr. Chan about his "Red Eye" long fin red sword when I was there last time and he said he brought the original fish from HK and continue to breed them until today... I told him I used to go the train station to buy fish on Saturdays morning. I even bought four half dollar size discus in the late 70's, but of course, they did not last long...I think many HK discus breeder started with angel fish first and then apply similar but different techniques on discus. Cause angel was very popular back then.

David

[tlum]

Hi David,

You might have brought the discus from me. I sold many thousands of angle, discus, and later francy gold fish at the Old MongKok railway station from early 70s to early 80s. We sold mainly to fish store during the weekdays and to retail customer during Saturday and Sunday. If you still have good memory, our spot was very close to the public toilet there, right next to an old man who sold bird - close to the area that sold marine fish. We had been selling fish at the same spot for more than a decade.

You are exactly right that my family first breeded angel fish in late 60s and early 70s and later breeded discus. In fact, for a couple of year in early 70s, we were the sole breeder of zebra angel in Hong Kong. We cut a deal with an exporter/importer (the United Acquarium in HK) and they imported the zebra angel from South America and gave us the breeding stocks for free. In return,we agreed that we would only sold our angels to them. All of our angel fish were exported to the US market. We applied our angel breeding technique to breed discus, with great success. We even had 3 custom build indoor fish ponds, about 6'X10'X10' each, for filtering our hard well water with peat. We bought peat by truckloads. I quited selling fish in Mongkok when I started college in Hong Kong in 85 and my parents retired from the fish business in late 80s. Although it is nice to keep a few tanks of fish at home as hobbyist, life as a professional breeders family was very tought. I got up at 6:00am every morning to clean the tanks for 2 hours before I went to school. I came home at 5:00pm from school and did the same thing for another hour before I could work on my homework. I got up 4:30am every Saturday and Sunday to go to the Mongkok morning fish market.

Anyway, a long story. It is nice to hear someone who had shared experience of those good old day.


Terry

[David_Hui]

Terry,

That's real cool. We should meet up next time when you come to the BayArea.

David