ALBINO DEFINED

[american breeder]

If we look up from the dictionary the definition of albino we see something interesting

the word albino is from the latin albus meaning white

better said it is a being that has lack of pigmentation
ie white hair red eyes white or milky colored skin

all the fuss being made here is a bit silly in my opinion

i used my albino component differently than they did
they used it as a single fish i used it to break out traits i did not want in the fish. I diamondised them for stability this is something my brotherrs in the east and elsewhere havent done as well.

WE see catlogues and facts and documentation of this fish and that.. I never enterted my fish ,,hehe

i dont care what the catologues say
im not concerned with competitions etc..too busy breeding fish, cant hardly leave for a second..

this could get ugly so im leaving this thread for now ...

east meets west in a giant catolgue pic fest..

yikes

to my nah sayers fine..

i wish u well as your buisness doesnt interfere with mine
may u prosper in the new year

[Carol_Roberts]

It is my understanding that albino doesn't have to be a lack of all color. It can be a lack of black pigment letting some of the other colors come through. This would produce a discus with pink eyes (no black pupil) where you could still see the striations or other pattern in reds and yellows instead of the discus body being a uniform tan or flesh color.

Can a discus expressing the albino gene with pink eyes show a blue or green pattern on the body?

[american breeder]

It is my understanding that albino doesn't have to be a lack of all color. It can be a lack of black pigment letting some of the other colors come through. This would produce a discus with pink eyes (no black pupil) where you could still see the striations or other pattern in reds and yellows instead of the discus body being a uniform tan or flesh color.

Can a discus expressing the albino gene with pink eyes show a blue or green pattern on the body?

A true Albino no

an albino x yes..

true albino is as the definition states

everyting else is a x

some of this some of that

AB

[JMArtist]

Just thought I'd add to the confusion....or clear it up depending how much of this you read. This applies to all living things, including Discus.
It really all comes down to one thing; The Lack of melanin in both skin and eyes, this makes a true albino, everything else falls short, so don't kid yourself or fool anybody else.

al·bi·no (l-bn)
n. pl. al·bi·nos
1. A person or animal lacking normal pigmentation, with the result being that the skin and hair are abnormally white or milky and the eyes have a pink or blue iris and a deep-red pupil.
2. A plant that lacks chlorophyll.

The noun albinism has one meaning:

Meaning #1: the congenital absence of pigmentation in the eyes and skin and hair

Wikipedia
albinism
Albinism is a genetic condition resulting in a lack of pigmentation in the eyes, skin and hair. It is an inherited condition arising from the combination of recessive genes passed from both parents of an individual. A variety of problems with photosensitivity in eyesight and skin usually result from the condition. This article is intended to cover mainly human albinism, although many of the features mentioned would probably also apply to albinism in other animals.


Lack of pigmentation
The gene which results in albinism prevents the body from making the usual amounts of a pigment called melanin. Albinism is typically categorised as Tyrosinase positive or negitive. In cases of Tyrosinase positive albinism, the enzyme tyrosinase is present but is unable to enter pigment cells to produce melanin. In tyrosinase negative cases, this enzyme is not produced.

There are many genes which are now scientifically proven to be associated with albinism (or better: alterations of the genes). All alterations, however, lead to an alteration of the melanin (pigment/coloring) production in the body. Melanin helps protect the skin from ultraviolet light coming from the sun (see human skin color for more information). People with albinism lack this protective pigment in their skin, and can burn easily from exposure to the sun as a result. Lack of melanin in the eye often results in problems with vision, as the eye will not develop properly without the pigment.

Individuals with full albinism (called albinos) generally have flax-white hair, blue eyes and pale white skin which makes them stand out. Sometimes hair pigmentation is not completely absent (white) but shows a pale or medium blonde. Often the affected persons are paler in complexion than the rest of the family. The myth that all persons with albinism have "white hair and red eyes" is not true. Colorless iris in humans is pale blue, not pink like in some animals, and the human eye is too deep for the pupil to appear red rather than black.

Growth and development of children with albinism should be (and is) normal however, as should their general health, life span, intelligence, and ability to have children. The chance of albino children resulting from the marriage of an albino with a non-albino is very low and is discussed below.


Visual problems associated with albinism
People with albinism generally suffer impaired vision. They may have varying degrees of partial-sightedness; either near-sighted or far-sighted. Most albinos suffer nystagmus (a rapid, involuntary "shaking" of the eyes) or stigmatism, though this and general vision often improves towards middle age, when most "normally" sighted individuals begin to suffer long- or short-sightedness, due to changes in muscle tension.

Individuals with these conditions may be helped by the use of glasses and low-visual aids such as magnifiers, as well as bright but angled reading lights, but their vision cannot be corrected completely. Although surgery is possible on the ocular muscles, effectively simulating (to a limited degree) the improvements in the albino's vision that often come with age, the gain is generally thought be out-weighed by the trauma.

The lack of pigment in the eye generally leads to ocular photophobia or hyper-photo-sensitivity. This is due not so much by the iris allowing stray light to enter the eye, as by a lack of pigment within the eye, allowing light to refract within the eyeball. A good analogy would be taking a picture with a film camera that is painted white within, rather than black. Such sensitivity generally leads to a dislike of bright lights, but does not prevent people with albinism enjoying the outdoors. They should avoid prolonged exposure to bright sunlight regardless, as their skin is particularly susceptible to sunburn.


Genetics
In ocular-cutaneous albinism, individuals inherit an "albinism gene" from both parents. Where an individual receives one albinism gene and one normal gene, that person will not show outward signs of the condition, but will become a carrier of the recessive gene. Where two carriers of the recessive gene have a child together, that child will have a one in four chance of receiving two albinism genes, and having albinism. The child will have one in four chances of getting neither albinism gene, having normal pigment, and not being a carrier. The child has two in four chances of getting one normal and one albinism gene, having normal pigment but being a carrier. The incidence of carriers in the British population is approximately 1 in 50.

Albinism in non-humans
Albinism is not restricted to the human species—other animals also carry these genes. Albinism tends to be more hazardous in the animal kingdom, where vision and pigmentation are usually strongly linked to survival. However, albino animals are often kept as pets, e.g. albino gerbils.

There have been no reports of true albinism in horses. White horses lack the pink eyes that make a true albino.

Bristol Zoo was the home to a very rare albino African penguin named Snowdrop. Snowdrop was hatched at the zoo in October 2002 and died in August 2004. For many years, a unique albino gorilla named Floquet de Neu (Snowflake) was the most famous resident of the Parc Zoològic de Barcelona.

Cats can carry genetic albinism, resulting in white fur and blue eyes. A high percentage of albino cats are also deaf.

Albino frogs and fish are found in the wild, and can sometimes be found for sale in pet shops. The lack of pigment is seen as a desired attribute for breeders and keepers of these animals.

[Rod]

Nice work JMArtist, excellent definition. My dictionary defines albino as lack of all pigment which i believe to be an inadequate definition. The definition you present is much much better i believe as if we were to swallow the no pigment rule then almost all fish that are considered albino would not be including our discus. IMO if they have red iris and lack black pigment then yes they are albino regardless of wheather they have other pigments or not. And the thought of attaching the albino tag to a fish that has black pigment , even if they are bred from albino and carry the gene, is preposterous. You are either an albino or you are not.....there is no middle ground here.

[Mughal]

I agree with JM about the albinoism. If there is 1 thing I learned in my genetics class it's that an albino is a recessive trait and therefore must be the phenotype AND the genotype. There is no middleground because the phenotype always favors the dominant trait.

[american breeder]

Nice work JMArtist, excellent definition. My dictionary defines albino as lack of all pigment which i believe to be an inadequate definition. The definition you present is much much better i believe as if we were to swallow the no pigment rule then almost all fish that are considered albino would not be including our discus. IMO if they have red iris and lack black pigment then yes they are albino regardless of wheather they have other pigments or not. And the thought of attaching the albino tag to a fish that has black pigment , even if they are bred from albino and carry the gene, is preposterous. You are either an albino or you are not.....there is no middle ground here.
of course there is middle ground.no strain breeds 100 percent true
of course two albinos can throw a solid black fish..a morph of their union ..and yes u can have 80percent demonstrating similar traits and 20 percent adjusted.
and of course one can have a fish that has multiple traits and still be able to call albino x whatever.
Once again the mind traps itself..
Rod and JMArtist are defending a undefendable position.SImply a smoke screen for what they cant understand. The fact remains i have Albinoised a number of Hybrids where the fish have gorgeous color and have some albino traits on board. To try and say it is not so is rediculous. The Yellow Albinos have cherry red iris and have other albino traits as well.
Yet they are denoted as a YELLOW ALBINO yes a new creation..

get real

AB

[tlum]

AB, wow dr. of discus genetic, what can I said.....please stop all those misinformation. If you have breeded albino, you know that it breeds 100% true. Two albinos can OLNY throw albinos, no "solid black fish", period. This is high school biology. As a recessive trait, it takes a pair of albino gene to become an albino. For the children of albino parents, half of their genes come from each parent. Each of the albino parents will pass an albino gene to their children and all children of albino parents will be albinos.

I hope you are not calling any white or relative clean fish albino. You can call your yellow fish albino or anything you like. But, please don't confuse other people here as you are doing a disservice to the hobby. Please do post some pictures of your yellow albino to support your claim.

Terry

[raglanroad]

I think we should look at the biology of this before reaching conclusions. The high school simple genetics course will not be appropriate for this , I don't think.
here is some stuff on pigments and colors http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqSciSubWebIndex/coloration.htm
AB seems to me to have opened a different avenue for expression of appearances in the fish, instead of the usual route, that's the reason that this does not compute with the punnet square and high school biology. In any case, I don't think pigmentation or color is such a cut and dried simple subject.

Is this correct, AB - Is the diamondizing of the albino the key to this? Am I correct to say that what you have done is to eliminate the barring patterns that were unwanted, using the diamondized albino.

Jimmy, wouldn't this be what you were referring to about the barring pattern you couldn't take out of the picture? Is this not a good explanation of how AB went about doing this?

[american breeder]

I think we should look at the biology of this before reaching conclusions. The high school simple genetics course will not be appropriate for this , I don't think.
here is some stuff on pigments and colors http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqSciSubWebIndex/coloration.htm
AB seems to me to have opened a different avenue for expression of appearances in the fish, instead of the usual route, that's the reason that this does not compute with the punnet square and high school biology. In any case, I don't think pigmentation or color is such a cut and dried simple subject.

Is this correct, AB - Is the diamondizing of the albino the key to this? Am I correct to say that what you have done is to eliminate the barring patterns that were unwanted, using the diamondized albino.

Jimmy, wouldn't this be what you were referring to about the barring pattern you couldn't take out of the picture? Is this not a good explanation of how AB went about doing this?
Genetics is complex and my experimentation is creative at the least.This thread is about mutation and manipulative genetics. If one had been following concurrent running threads one would have realised why i had to develop stabilised variants so i could compete in the world market. I did it first out of a survival mode, and what fruited was extreme.. I think the obvious responce by a certain faction on this board is very telling of their concerns.. But its already in place and has been for years.

first one had to have THE B DIAMOND
secondly one had to have the TRUE ALBINO
thirdly one had to have variants with good genetic bakgrounds
to make new hybrids that would produce similar prodginy for commercial venture..

i have many friends in the east
they are not celebrity breeders for the most prt

they are family men who make their livelihoods
raising discus

i have made breeding alliances with friends in the east and worked together to produce new color types for the process.
i owe a lot to these friends
especially in the red color types and dotted variants

DISCUS GENETICS is simply not something u can take off the shelf and eat it right away..oh no it takes years..it took me 15 years to develop my SOLID BLUE FISH

but now because of my process the diamondising and then subsequent albinoising, the fish are stable for many generations and i have good hybrids that produce a hi number of similar prodginy..

I dont want someone getting an orange PB when they ordered a solid yellowand paid 50USD for it..i want even the little guy to have the big fish..
the people who market my fish can easily guarantee what u will get and its certainly is a plus for everyone.....

for the nah sayers.
guys it really doesnt matter to me if u get it or not. Of course friendly debate is one thing,, but this rudeness and overt demonstartion of negativity towards me is uncalled for.. yes i know u have never seen fish like mine and yes u cant beleive some slob in california is ahead of the eastern guys big whoop..there are people dying and straving, thats important, thats something to get up about, but discus fish,,nope nada zilch..look some guy went as far as to hi jack a pic of mine and say he recieved from another american breeder, then he writes me and says look..i just bought the fish in the pic for 75usd
incredible..really

i have had to have all my pics removed
from simply and no more will be published at all ever.

i mean really..

and here i am trying to open some thick heads
let some light into a subject that is hidden and never spoken about.

polease

Thanku RR u have a good mind and keep useing it..

got to run

AB

[tlum]

Hi Raglanroad,

I do not want to be negative and do not jump into argument with other people easy. However, fact is fact and albino is a well studied and understood trait. I think the misinformation that two albino parents can produce black fish is too serious an error to let it stands unchallenged here. I think the moderator also has an obligation to make sure that the information is correct. It is OK about sharing different opinion, but I don't think the forum is a place to deliberately giving wrong information.

I am fine with AB's claim that he is the best discus breeder the history has known. But, I do hope that he does not mix fact with tale.

Terry

[american breeder]

Hi Raglanroad,

I do not want to be negative and do not jump into argument with other people easy. However, fact is fact and albino is a well studied and understood trait. I think the misinformation that two albino parents can produce black fish is too serious an error to let it stands unchallenged here. I think the moderator also has an obligation to make sure that the information is correct. It is OK about sharing different opinion, but I don't think the forum is a place to deliberately giving wrong information.

I am fine with AB's claim that he is the best discus breeder the history has known. But, I do hope that he does not mix fact with tale.

Terry
what u dont get is this

that genes and statistics are a similar subject
everyone who studies genetics
studies statistics as well
statistically two white parents can produce black prodginy
if a brown fish can produce an albino which is the reverse of what is being said essentially then of course two white fish produce a black fish its just a matter of time

dont confuse the readership with old wives tales or your opinions sir

and yes i do have the greatest fish
hehehehehehe
thanls

AB

[ronrca]

So far Im enjoying the discussion (minus the negative parts however). This is far beyond my experience with discus since Im only starting to setup my breeding however very interesting info. I do hope that over time I can learn this knowledge as well.

Sorry to hear about your pics AB! Free feel to email them to me. I love seeing discus and it gives me a goal for my breeding program.

[american breeder]

So far Im enjoying the discussion (minus the negative parts however). This is far beyond my experience with discus since Im only starting to setup my breeding however very interesting info. I do hope that over time I can learn this knowledge as well.

Sorry to hear about your pics AB! Free feel to email them to me. I love seeing discus and it gives me a goal for my breeding program.
The wierd thing about discus fish is they constantly want to go backwards. That is why u see names like yellow melon, orange melon, in truth these are throw backs to YELLOW FACE RED MELON

27 months ago i offered a fish named PLATNIUM FACE SOLID RED DIAMOND
a cross between a RED DIAMOND SOLID TYPE and a white diamond type ie ghost calico . The Male being the RED DIAMOND SOLID TYPE and the female being THE WHITE DIAMOND GHOST CALICO TYPE
and poof like magic the priodginy had mostly platnium colored faces and red diamond bdy..wow..again i get real lucky. so the breeders who are developing in the east are doing similar cross etc because they simply present themselves without much great thought on the breeder.

so many hybrids we see today are simply obvious F1 look alikes...
u see one nice fish
put it with another nice fish
F1 mite look good

but what do u do after that..so its what the public wants that drives the breeders decisions
thats another place i have been able to take a slightly different road..
even though i have had to conform to market trends always, i still have what the general market doesnt have .. yes i breed red melons and b diamonds etc etc etc..

but i have many other hybrids as well
including the NINE STRAINS of CONTROL


yup

the base fish is the key to it all

so for u budding genetic masters..

1. base fish must be a diamond
2. secondary x directly to a albino
3. diamondised stabilised albino x f1
4. tell me they arent incredible looking
4a. now x with a secondary albino base color such as red x yellow x
which is in my lineage a B DIAMOND CROSSED WITH A YELLOW AND RED ALBINO SECONDARY X

when i showed the pic of the red melons albino type, u guys missed the fact that many of the hilights on the fish were blue and only a very few still had any black at all..

this is what i mean about statistics...
in every 100 fish there will be some curve
its nature
u can manipulate some what

but in the end nature wins out and u must continue
the line breeding and out crossing etc to continue the variant or hybrid or strain..very hard.. the fish for some reason are against it.

discus want to go back to the jungle

even after all this time they still react as if they were...

we havent even discussed enviromental factors etc..

wow..

AB

[tlum]

AB, I am sure you have the best discus and I do not dispute it. I did enjoy the round spotted discus pictures you posted a few days ago. That is a very nice fish. I hope I can raise and breed such high quality fish myself.

White and albino are two different traits. White is a color and albino is lack of melanin pigment. You are right that two white fish may produce a black fish. But two albinos will never produce a black fish. Albino is not a color.

As genetic and statistics, I totally agree with what you said. It is why I like both genetic and statistics. In genetic, the outcome of a cross is very preditable. When you cross adults with the same recessive trait, all offsprings will carry the same recessive trait. And Albino is a recessive trait. I think I know enought statistics and genetic to understand what I am taking about. I did have some formal training in statistics to the point that I am now teaching quantitative research methods and statistics to doctoral students in a major research university. I have been doing that for 6 years and enjoy very much do so. I also had college level training in biology. However, when I made the decision for my college major, I decided to go for economics rather than biology as it is easier to make $$ as an economist than a biologist. This is a decision I am still regretting. I think life is more fun as a biologist than an economist.

Ronrca, your situation is why I think correct information in the forum is important. The Simply is the best discus forum (some people may dispute it ) and I do hope the information here is correct so that we can advance the knowledge of the hobbyist (including me as I learned a lot since I became a member), rather than returning to the old dark age of 60s and 70s in discus breeding – all misinformation and myth.

I do not disagree with AB on his claim of the quality of his fish and the productiveness of his breeding program. I do think his understanding of albino trait is not supported by the scientific fact.

I think I have said enough about albino and will stop here. Enjoy.

Terry

[ronrca]

Ronrca, your situation is why I think correct information in the forum is important. The Simply is the best discus forum (some people may dispute it ) and I do hope the information here is correct so that we can advance the knowledge of the hobbyist (including me as I learned a lot since I became a member), rather than returning to the old dark age of 60s and 70s in discus breeding – all misinformation and myth.


I agree about correct information being posted however I also think that everyone is responsiblity to do their own research into whether or not something is correct and accurate. Imo and experience, too many ppl take whatever is posted as 100% and run with it. This isnt limited to forums. Im also thinking of lfs. While a lot can be learned from forums, detailed knowledge and an understanding is obtained via research. Maybe Im different however many things I take with a grain of salt until I can verify thru my own research whether the info be correct. Thats just me perhaps however Ive been made a fool often enough to know the feeling of embarrassment finding out Im confused or wrong. Anyways, I find discussions also a very good way to learn as one hears more sides of the discussions. There is a difference between interpretation and misinformation. Sometimes its hard to tell the difference.

Regarding discus colors, genetics, etc, etc, I dont even know what my discus are as there are so many names, particularily trade/lfs/individual names, it makes me crazy.

[Mughal]

T

[Mughal]

The simple high school punnet square regarding albinism is pertinent to all living organisms that produce melanin to color themselves. Fish are no exception, Discus are certainly not above this either.

Science magazine has this to say about albinism:
"Albinism, as it's called, is an inherited metabolic disorder. Its chief feature is complete lack of melanin, the substance in plant and animal cells that produces color."

Since the Genetic make-up (DNA) in every cell of a multi-cellular organism is exactly identical it would be impossible to have some cells with pigment, and some without.:antlers:

The technology that AB would need to have to produce Albino discus and then add back color would require intense gene-therapy which would have to be done in the 'wriggler' stage, and cost tens of thousands of dollars for each offspring. Maybe that's why discus are so expensive:o

[EthanCote.com]

I won't add more fuel into this firestorm but will end this thread with 2 chinese proverbs:


"To learn without thinking is fruitless;
To think without learning is dangerous."


"People with virtue must speak out;
People who speak are not all virtuous."


Cheerio,

Chi.

[Dave C]

look some guy went as far as to hi jack a pic of mine and say he recieved from another american breeder, then he writes me and says look..i just bought the fish in the pic for 75usd
incredible..really

i have had to have all my pics removed
from simply and no more will be published at all ever.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Nor do I get why someone claiming your pic was sent to them from another breeder means that you have to remove the rest of your pics. Is there a risk that the rest of your pics are in other breeder's hands too? Very cryptic. I assume this is the poster you're referring to regarding the other use of your pic...


Hello:

Sorry to get in on this so late but I'm wondering where that pic came from and as I was sent the same pic by another American Breeder not too long ago:

Here's the pic on my hard drive :)

Sweep it away if you choose but this isn't the first time I've heard that the origin of some of these pics is suspect. And before anyone refers to this post as negativity, it's not. I just don't understand why "pictures" of these fish & the related fishroom are so secretive... just like tours of this fishroom. Pictures are easily marked so as to make them hard to reuse. And pics of such a wondrous fishroom would be of benefit to all.

[Greg Richardson]

Dave. How about explaining step by step how to mark the pictures?
That may solve the problem.
I started a thread for that but only one response and it wasn't something that was step by step.
Not all of us are computer handy so if you or anyone else knows that would be great!
Thanks!

[Dave C]

Almost every photo editing software package out there allows you to overlay text onto a picture and then save the picture/text as one. You choose where to place the text, the color (usually use something transparent) and the size/font. The idea is to lay the text over the fish so as to render the photo useless to anyone else but make the text innocuous enough that the viewer can still see the details of the fish. How exactly you do that depends on the software you're using. I usually use Adobe Photo Deluxe Home Edition and it is very easy to do.

[Dave C]

Here's an example with the disputed photo. The amount of transparency of the text is user defined in the program I use. So it's there, but it doesn't stand out too much. Pretty easy eh?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/dclubine/SSCN5194a.jpg

[Elcid]

Gosh, whoever has that fish, I already agreed to buy it for $75, SO GIVE IT UP! :)

[JMArtist]

Rod and JMArtist are defending a undefendable position. Simply a smoke screen for what they cant understand.

AB

I supply a complete undeniable scientific definition for all of what a true albino is and you say it's an UN-defendable position?
Are you nuts?
Calling your new creation a Yellow Albino is an oxymoron, since the word Albino only has one meaning: the congenital absence of pigmentation in the eyes and skin and hair.
Which can be extended to include feathers and scales.
Linking the word Albino with a color does not make sence.
At best your new creation should be called Yellow albino-esque. A much more appropriate description of what your created based on your own process to achieve it.
And I thought you looked up the word "Albino" and understood that it is a lack of pigmentation.
That the gene which results in albinism prevents the body from making the usual amounts of a pigment called melanin. Albinism is typically categorised as Tyrosinase positive or negitive. In cases of Tyrosinase positive albinism, the enzyme tyrosinase is present but is unable to enter pigment cells to produce melanin. In tyrosinase negative cases, this enzyme is not produced.
I would hope that you are able to produce fish in the later case, as they would give you much more refined and reliable stock to work with. So you should have them genetically checked to assure your self of this.
Any addition of pigmentation to Albino stock would automaticely give you a non-albino fish, even though there may exsist albino traits, the fish can no longer be considered an albino in the true sence of the word, hence my new word Albino-esque.
Simply meaning it carries some of the features of a true albino.

[raglanroad]

Terry, I think the whole thing here is about who said what about albinos.
But I see that the word is being used in more than one way.The scientific term is one way, and the term applied to a fish that is a cross also.
AB has explained where the albino came from- which I suppose you could check out, bringing the subject to "did Lennie have albinos ?"

Everything seems to follow, I don't see what the confusion is about here. Either AB had albinos and used them, or he didn't. There do seem to be some differences between the fish others have said were the same as AB fish, but are not.

DaveC, you know how it goes on the net, somebody is likely to recognize a recognizable fish- so have the AB fish been seen elsewhere?
Can't leave out that AB is known to some members here who seriously commend him.
Dave

[Elcid]

Is this an Albino?
(Pic borrowed from AquaRealms Discus Gallery) :D

[tlum]

Raglanroad,

I really don't care who discovered the albino discus, where did AB get his albino, or whether he used it in his breeding program. I do not dispute any of these claims.

My concern is all the misinformation he gave about genetic and albino. Albino is a very well defined term in biology and over the years, we came to understand quite well how the albino gene is passed from one generation to the next. Unless he is living in his own world, it is not up to him to redefine the term and use his new definition in a public forum. This will only create confusion and mislead other hobbyists.

I did not jump into the discussion until AB said two albino parents would throw a black fish. He mixed up albino trait with color trait. Then he used all the wrong arguments, saying that “if a brown fish can produce an albino which is the reverse of what is being said essentially then of course two white fish produce a black fish its just a matter of time”. Again, he mixed up the color trait (white color) and albino trait. This is simply wrong. Two brown discuses that carry recessive albino gene with produce 25% albinos and 75% non-albinos. A pair of albino parents will never produce a brown or black discus. It is genetically impossible. A discus that carries the recessive gene will not exhibit any albino characteristics. So, there is no use to use albino to enhance the color of any discus. He might has enhanced the color and presentaiton of his discus by crossing his fish with a white fish. Many breeders did the same by crossing their PB strain with snow white to cleanup the black peppering. But, a snow white is not an albino fish.

Personally, I do not know AB and have never bought any fish from him. I am just a hobbyist and have no intention to become an importer or to earn any money from the discus market, I will be very happy if I could recover 10% of the heating costs for all my tanks this winter by selling some of my juvs. I have no issue with AB claiming that he discovered many new discus strains that have not been known to the world. I am also aware that Cliff has once said AB is the biggest discus breeder in America. My parents used to breed discus, angles and later fancy goldfish in Hong Kong and I knew very well that life as a topical fish breeder was very hard, a 7/24 and 365 days a year work. I decided not to follow that path when I was very young. My family still have a hatchery the size of a middle school sitting empty in New Territory, Hong Kong. I do have all the respect to all those old fish breeders who are still around – my parents retired in late 80s.

I just want to clarify what is albino and that the term have very specific meaning in biology and genetic. Most of the information he gave regarding albino is just wrong. I will stop here.

Terry

[american breeder]

Raglanroad,

I really don't care who discovered the albino discus, where did AB get his albino, or whether he used it in his breeding program. I do not dispute any of these claims.

My concern is all the misinformation he gave about genetic and albino. Albino is a very well defined term in biology and over the years, we came to understand quite well how the albino gene is passed from one generation to the next. Unless he is living in his own world, it is not up to him to redefine the term and use his new definition in a public forum. This will only create confusion and mislead other hobbyists.

I did not jump into the discussion until AB said two albino parents would throw a black fish. He mixed up albino trait with color trait. Then he used all the wrong arguments, saying that “if a brown fish can produce an albino which is the reverse of what is being said essentially then of course two white fish produce a black fish its just a matter of time”. Again, he mixed up the color trait (white color) and albino trait. This is simply wrong. Two brown discuses that carry recessive albino gene with produce 25% albinos and 75% non-albinos. A pair of albino parents will never produce a brown or black discus. It is genetically impossible. A discus that carries the recessive gene will not exhibit any albino characteristics. So, there is no use to use albino to enhance the color of any discus. He might has enhanced the color and presentaiton of his discus by crossing his fish with a white fish. Many breeders did the same by crossing their PB strain with snow white to cleanup the black peppering. But, a snow white is not an albino fish.

Personally, I do not know AB and have never bought any fish from him. I am just a hobbyist and have no intention to become an importer or to earn any money from the discus market, I will be very happy if I could recover 10% of the heating costs for all my tanks this winter by selling some of my juvs. I have no issue with AB claiming that he discovered many new discus strains that have not been known to the world. I am also aware that Cliff has once said AB is the biggest discus breeder in America. My parents used to breed discus, angles and later fancy goldfish in Hong Kong and I knew very well that life as a topical fish breeder was very hard, a 7/24 and 365 days a year work. I decided not to follow that path when I was very young. My family still have a hatchery the size of a middle school sitting empty in New Territory, Hong Kong. I do have all the respect to all those old fish breeders who are still around – my parents retired in late 80s.

I just want to clarify what is albino and that the term have very specific meaning in biology and genetic. Most of the information he gave regarding albino is just wrong. I will stop here.

Terry
albino is a term which denoates a certain genetic defect..get it
albinoism is a disease

i liked daves term albinoesque
but again its simply a term

the fish are unique and its because of the way in which they have been developed
if i choose to use the term albino i am within my rights..becuase at its root are a pure albino crossed with a colored diamondised fish./.the fish ELcid shows is not a true albino either

just a sport

a true albino is devoid of any color pigmentation
essentially white with rabbit eyes..
again most of u failed to understand what was presented..u simply made argument to defend some market point..


RR understood and realised that i never claimed my YELLOW ALBINOS ARE TRUE ALBINOS
but they have many albino traits
enough that i was justified to use the term

my albinos have a whiteish center bdy
and the colored part reaches out to the edge of the fins getting more intense as it gets closer to the edges of the fins. The fish have red iris etc.

im done here for now
u guys are just to confrontational..
for me..

im just a simple guy who got real lucky and used his brain to survive

as well there are some people here that want to take what isnt theirs and take another mans work..

this is SIMPLY WRONG

im just to much of a threat for these sponsors etc.
the fish and the info i presenetd has all been documented
all copyrighted by me prior to me posting it here

ALL PHOTOS ARE THE XPRESSED PRESONEL PROPERTY OF MARC LOTUS
AND REPRODUCTION WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED WRITTEN CONSENT OF MARC LOTUS AND HIS AGENTS IS A CRIME .

thanks

AB exit stage left

[Alan]

LOL. AB you're a funny guy. For someone who's being "attacked" or feels being attacked you've got a good sense of humor. That's good.

Based on what I've read here are my worthless 2 cents:

1. The albino issue is a matter of semantics. If Clinton can say that "oral sex" is not sex then... you know how that goes.

2. In the matter of the discus breeder with a new strain, I believe the breeder has the right to call it whatever he or she likes. His blood and sweat, his call. I've seen enough red melons, marlboro reds, etc. that are simply red fish or red fish with yellow heads or... Again, maybe the title of the thread "Albino Defined" is too definitive. So, please refer to #1. In the commercial sense, as long as the person parting with his money is happy with the fish he's getting, and he's getting what was offered (and I believe AB mentioned the latter somewhere), everyone's happy - case closed.

3. Science, regardless how scientists want you to believe, is not an exact discipline. As an example, what are the possiblities that 2+2=5. Possibly 3 or more combinations. Don't believe it? Open your excel file and type '2' in cell A1 and another '2' in cell A2. Add A1 and A2 in cell A3. Now type '2.4' in cell B1 and another '2.4' in cell B2. Add B1 and B2 in cell B3. Format column B with no decimal places. Try 2.3. Is it possible with 2.25? That's computer "science" for you; 2+2=4 and 2+2=5. With the millions of possibilities in genetics, it just makes it possible that 2 albino parents can have a non-albino offspring. Is it possible? Yes. Have I mentioned the word "possible" and its variants enough times?

4. As for pics claimed as someone else's, I could sympathize with AB. I had some pics (not of discus) stolen before. I also had people claim I got fish from them I didn't get but that's another story. It's a sad fact but that's just how the net is. Brand your pics as mentioned above.

5. Your past doesn't have to be your future. Just because some so-called genius in the past says such things are so does not make it so. Remember TB? There was no cure before. How about cancer? No exact cure yet but does Lance Armstrong answer your question? What if AB did discover something new? Possible? Yes.

My views above are my opinion only. I'm not trying to be judgmental. You don't have to view them the same way I do. But, "can't we all just get along?"

[candyl70]

AB
Please don't stop sharing with us. There are some of us here who really enjoy reading your posts and trying to take in all you are teaching. It doesn't matter here if people want to argue and get nasty. Let them, it's their state of mind and isn't representational. I for one read all of your posts and enjoy them emmensly. It must be because you are teaching new things, things others don't want you to share or simply have never thought of in the same way that they feel they must attack... who really knows. But i think if people don't believe you or think you are wrong they can do so in a civilized way, if not i really don't think that they should read your posts if they can't control their emotions. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_10.gif

Let the rest of us learn or hear out AB and let us HOBBYISTS decide what we will accept as true or not. I don't know if this is making any sense or if it will matter, but i thought you should know that some of us really appreciate what you are trying to do here.



Candy

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Marc~

What Candy is trying to say is that we do not want you to take your Ball and Mit and go home. People have a right to disagree with your posts and opinions and you had to know you were going to ruffle those feathers, come on Marc, when you came back~

I really enjoy reading your posts too. Now sometimes I have no F* idea what you are talking about! Please juss blow off negativity. Certainly you have learned in all your wise years, how to disagree in a diplomatic way or to Simply ignore. There were some pretty good discussions tho, where I did not read rudeness or meaness, but true debate amongst adults, Marc...And I think we all are learning from everyone we are not here to let others try and convince us of their beliefs, but rather to read and learn, then ultimately decide for ourselves with an application of common sense. And....I can see this time around, I like you so much better and you are trying to get along and you have a sense of humor as well!

And if you leave, how will I ever get my Lavendar Discus???
hmm...........???

Do not make Candy and I come there and hit you with your OWN dead fish!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif





Marie http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_4_106.gif

[Dave C]

ALL PHOTOS ARE THE XPRESSED PRESONEL PROPERTY OF MARC LOTUS
AND REPRODUCTION WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED WRITTEN CONSENT OF MARC LOTUS AND HIS AGENTS IS A CRIME

Who is Marc Lotus? I thought your name was Mark Fleishman. Everything is so cryptic... even your name seems to be a secret, I don't get it.

[raglanroad]

Raglanroad,

My concern is all the misinformation he gave about genetic and albino. Albino is a very well defined term in biology and over the years, we came to understand quite well how the albino gene is passed from one generation to the next.

The link here says that albinism is about the melanin component of pigmentation. It does not say that the other pigments are absent. Right here we have disagreement with some of the science given in this thread. So some agreement on terms we are using is necessary all round, to follow thru with arguments
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqSciSubWebIndex/coloration.htm

I did not jump into the discussion until AB said two albino parents would throw a black fish. He mixed up albino trait with color trait.

Then he used all the wrong arguments, saying that “if a brown fish can produce an albino which is the reverse of what is being said essentially then of course two white fish produce a black fish its just a matter of time”. Again, he mixed up the color trait (white color) and albino trait. This is simply wrong. Two brown discuses that carry recessive albino gene with produce 25% albinos and 75% non-albinos. A pair of albino parents will never produce a brown or black discus. It is genetically impossible. A discus that carries the recessive gene will not exhibit any albino characteristics. So, there is no use to use albino to enhance the color of any discus. He might has enhanced the color and presentaiton of his discus by crossing his fish with a white fish. Many breeders did the same by crossing their PB strain with snow white to cleanup the black peppering. But, a snow white is not an albino fish.
Once everyone demands a total exploration of somebody's expertize, there will be some areas that "scientific knowledge", will clash with. This is either because of some error, which everyone can make, or because sometimes "scientific knowledge" is tomorrow's bad joke, or because of imcomplete understanding on one side or the other. Not a big deal, if the fish and methods are there, we can get to the good stuff.

Personally, I do not know AB and have never bought any fish from him. I am just a hobbyist and have no intention to become an importer or to earn any money from the discus market, I will be very happy if I could recover 10% of the heating costs for all my tanks this winter by selling some of my juvs. I have no issue with AB claiming that he discovered many new discus strains that have not been known to the world. I am also aware that Cliff has once said AB is the biggest discus breeder in America. My parents used to breed discus, angles and later fancy goldfish in Hong Kong and I knew very well that life as a topical fish breeder was very hard, a 7/24 and 365 days a year work. I decided not to follow that path when I was very young. My family still have a hatchery the size of a middle school sitting empty in New Territory, Hong Kong. I do have all the respect to all those old fish breeders who are still around – my parents retired in late 80s.

I just want to clarify what is albino and that the term have very specific meaning in biology and genetic. Most of the information he gave regarding albino is just wrong. I will stop here.

Terry

We could get stuck on small issues of definition or "science". Once the "science" stops changing day to day, we will have one variable reduced in the equation.

[ronrca]

Terry is correct in his explaination of a true albino. AB is also correct in how he is naming his Albinos. AB also is correct that albinism is a defect. Regarding breeding albinos, both are also correct and both can use science to prove it. Albinism is created from a recessive gene which Terry mentions. However there is one small factor perhaps being missed. Given that there are millions of genes, there are also different 'strains', shall we call them, of these recessive genes. If the recessive gene is the same in both parents, the offspring will also be albinos. However, what if you throw in the factor of different recessive genes? Just a thought.

Regarding science, I have no idea what the rules/laws, etc are used in genetics, bio, etc, etc. I know from my electrical studies that a large portion of these rules/laws are theories and there is always an exception to the rules/laws, etc. As mentioned in respect to genetics, its a numbers/statics/percentage game. The fact that a percentage exists to create an albino from 2 'normal' parents, there is also a percentage that 2 albino parents with different recessive genes can produce an outward normal offspring. I said percentage! I didnt say they will. For example sake, that percentage may be a 1% percentage chance.

Its interesting that even with true albinos, there can be a different of appearance. Why? Some with pink eyes, others with light blue eyes.

Quote taken from http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Albinism refering to albinism in humans:

Individuals with full albinism (called albinos) generally have flax-white hair, blue eyes and pale white skin which makes them stand out. Sometimes hair pigmentation is not completely absent (white) but shows a pale or medium blonde. Often the affected persons are paler in complexion than the rest of the family. The myth that all persons with albinism have "white hair and red eyes" is not true. Colorless iris in humans is pale blue, not pink like in some animals, and the human eye is too deep for the pupil to appear red rather than black.

Anyways, as I mentioned before, science along with many things are open to interpretation. Sheesh! Scientist themselves can sometimes not come to concrete answers, how will we and this is science in general.

DaveC,
I agree in regard to the secretive issues. I think it comes from 'old school' thinking. The internet has really opened up things and some 'old timers' have troubles overcoming that their secrets might become public knowledge.

[raglanroad]

there are many points to agree with there, Ron.
I was checking out albinism, and one study was on just one particular point which could produce albinism.
Is it well documentated that only one particular mutation on one particular genttic location produces albinism? In any animal?
from the comments it sounds like albinism is very simple, just one way it occurs, and only one known set of pigmentation results for the offspring. Is it so?

[ronrca]

from the comments it sounds like albinism is very simple, just one way it occurs, and only one result from offspring. Is it so? Yes and no. Producing albinos is already so reseached that it is 'simple' or know how to do it. However the breeding of albinos isnt as simple as there are many disadvantages in doing this (health, deformities, morals, etc). I have read that their isnt only 1 recessive gene but more. Id like to read a study on the breeding of different recessive genes and the results. Typically albinos are being inbred therefore the same recessive gene is present in both parents and the offspring will also be the same albinos. I would what would happen however if this inbreding would continue for many generations what the result would be. I know that inbreding of discus, flies, and whatever else, once the inbreding goes so many generations, either they cant produce anymore or they produce offspring back to the roots.

Anyways, I suppose it doesnt really matter.

[Dave C]

I agree in regard to the secretive issues. I think it comes from 'old school' thinking. The internet has really opened up things and some 'old timers' have troubles overcoming that their secrets might become public knowledge.

Credibility does not come from referring to yourself by an alias, or a myriad of names. Pictures of fish are convenient ways of documenting opinions & experiences that you claim to have. They can easily be marked in a way that they are not subject to theft. And when an "old timer" has no trouble sharing ideas & secrets but does have a hard time showing evidence to support these ideas & secrets that's when credibility is stretched. The "secret" is how the fish was created, not evidence that the fish/fishroom exists. No one can take a photo of a fish and sell it, it's the fish that has the value, not the pic. Credibility takes time, you can't shout at someone long & hard enough that they finally listen. Not when there are easier ways to gain respect... showing respect for others doesn't hurt either.

[ronrca]

Credibility does not come from referring to yourself by an alias, or a myriad of names. Pictures of fish are convenient ways of documenting opinions & experiences that you claim to have. They can easily be marked in a way that they are not subject to theft. And when an "old timer" has no trouble sharing ideas & secrets but does have a hard time showing evidence to support these ideas & secrets that's when credibility is stretched. The "secret" is how the fish was created, not evidence that the fish/fishroom exists. No one can take a photo of a fish and sell it, it's the fish that has the value, not the pic. Credibility takes time, you can't shout at someone long & hard enough that they finally listen. Not when there are easier ways to gain respect... showing respect for others doesn't hurt either.


:thumbsup:
I thought Id repost it! :D
Sometimes there's misunderstandings as well so giving the benefit of doubt isnt a bad thing. I have no idea in this particular case however.

[raglanroad]

but it is very understandable when from the first, posts were made by a variety of people attacking everything from the truth of the posts to the language used. Demanding proofs but not even knowing what proof to demand in order to satisfy their requirements.

Perhaps a discussion on what forum members think about albinism could clear things up... I see conflicting information being thrown into this.

Ron, it seems as though it is very simple- so why haven't the science buffs already provided the exact gene and location and mechanisms involved with discus albinism? Then we would at least know where they are coming from.
Dave

[candyl70]

WOW Marie, That was awsome!!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_32_7.gif

[terps]

This AB poster lost all credibilty with me when he stated he raised 100,000 discus by 1994. He seems to be a legend in his own mind. IMO, he reminds me a little of Bruce from Majestic Aquatics. Bruce stated on the aquabid forum he was selling 100,000 discus a year. Remember folks, don't believe everything you read on the Internet. There's lots of hype and BS being posted every day.

[ronrca]

Where did you read that? Must of missed it. Was he mentioning that he was also selling 100k discus a year or is that his life total so far? Bit of a difference dont you think if it were the latter.

[Kindredspirit]

Oh No... please, lets do not start on Bruce from Majestic........not the time or place...


So... I shall shuddup~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_112.gif




Marie~


Thanks Candy!!!!:angel:

[terps]

Bruce stated he sold 100,000 tails a year. He must have edited his post and deleted the reference. Other posters at the bottom of the thread mocked his claim of selling 100,000 discus a year. He really looked stupid.

http://www.aquabid.com/forum/forum.cgi?action=forum&item=1125585744&category=cafe

The thread is in the Aquabid cafe section entitled FED UP posted on Sept 2nd, 2005.

Anyway, just don't believe all the hype you read on the internet, especially on stock boards. :)

[candyl70]

That's why it's best to go and see the actual fish and hand pick them. You can see for yourself what you are getting.

C'mon Marie... let's go get those fishies... lol

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_12_10.gif

[ronrca]

I actually meant AB claim on his 100K discus, not Bruces. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[terps]

It's on his Terms thread
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=45762

"but i had the Focke lineage from germany via a student of his..another DR TYPE.. so i did have red fish and i thought ha..i can make similar fish from this..so i began to imitate the asian breeds about 94..in this year or Rand D a miracle took place..My number 2 pair of B diamonds started to throw MORPHS LIKE CRAZY..It was like winning the lottery. first it was the WHITE MORPH logical even though i felt the first morph from the fish would be an albino

i had raised about 100,000 pieces by 94 so i was due i felt for one albino

but no.. the number one pair as well began to throw a few whites and a few calico diamonds with a very little amount of yellow and white..against the blue"

[ronrca]

Well, it sounds too me like a life time number, not a per year figure. Now if we figure that he has been in the business for 30years in '94, thats around 3300 tails a year average. Per month that turns to be around 275. How many pairs would you need to be breeding that many tails?

[candyl70]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_1.gif

Intresting question... terps... i remember reading that post as well.... ??

[raglanroad]

This AB poster lost all credibilty with me when he stated he raised 100,000 discus by 1994. He seems to be a legend in his own mind. IMO, he reminds me a little of Bruce from Majestic Aquatics. Bruce stated on the aquabid forum he was selling 100,000 discus a year. Remember folks, don't believe everything you read on the Internet. There's lots of hype and BS being posted every day.Sounds like an invitation to the taxman, if you said it ,Bruce .

To compare him with AB seems to show lack of discernment, though.

Are your facts correct? I only saw others on Bruce's thread estimate the losses he might have IF he sold 100,000 a year. Those were other people saying 100, 000, from what I could read of all that crap. Maybe somewhere Bruce said it ? Is it there ? Bruce claiming he sells 100, 000 / year ? : ) It was hard to read.

I think your advice about not believing internet posting is good and should be applied to your post. : )

So it boils down to... lack of imagination that someone could raise 100,000 fish to size needed to observe for traits...weird....my one pair of african cichlids probably gave me 1,000 babies..with just a few tanks..so what is the problem about 100,000 from a dedicated breeder?

[ronrca]

If you do the math, all you need for 30 years is what 3-5pairs spawning once a month or 1-2 pairs spawning once a week. Is that really unreasonable? I wonder how many pairs dedicated breeders have anyways?

I didnt see a claim of selling 100k discus either. From what I understand, Bruce is an importer. What it be that unreasonable for an importer to turn over 100K discus in a year? Its high but I dont think necessarily impossible. But who cares! The topic isnt about Bruce anyways so why bother dragging him into this.

[raglanroad]

Ron, that is certainly not an unbelievable monster of a tale.

Take into account /consider the experience of some of the posters here. This dumping thread is starting to stink like amateur hour.

I believe someone wanted to attach stink from Bruce onto AB. A poor attempt, as he got it wrong anyway.

[tlum]

I think AB has understated that number. The problem is not that the number is too high, it is too low. Anyone who has been in the breeding business will tell you that there is no way you can support a full time operation as a breeder with only 100,000 fish produced in 30 years or only 277 fish per month. You need at least many times that number in order to survive - unless you are in retail business, not breeding business. It is a sad story if the biggest America breeder produced only 277 fish per month. It is not even in the ball park of major breeders in Asian or Europe. Ask Hans how many discus the Stendkers produce each month. I think the Stendker produce more than that number (100,000) in a year.

Terry

[ronrca]

Well then Im confused. First statement was doubting his credibity because he posted his 100k claim. Now its too low for a life time number but other dedicated breeders 100k is fine. Help me understand this because I think Im misunderstanding something. Without knowing when he actually started breeding, who really knows how much he was breeding or is breeding!

Why am I defending someone I dont know anyways! I suppose that it may be because I hate seeing someone dragged thru the mud without evidence, proof because of his experience, past, misunderstood posts, etc. without giving them the benefit of doubt first.

[candyl70]

I am too... but i think i was from the begining. I think AB was saying he raised 100,000 from his diamond pairs, not all of his fish together, and not over a 30 year span. It was while he was trying to develop a certain line of fish. Also the other breeders you mentioned are very well known and they might be able to sell 100,000+ a year. This is just getting stupid now.

[ronrca]

LOL! And now a third interpretation. A good example of misunderstandings when interpretating post. Interesting! I suppose the best is let AB explain.

[candyl70]

Well said. It really is pointless to attack him if your not even sure what the h*ll he is talking about or saying. I have also noticed that some of his quotes are being taken out of context. This is really just becoming so stupid. It's no wonder that AB hasn't replied.

[tlum]

Don't take me wrong, I am not critical to that number at all. As I said, I think AB has understated that number. I just want to respone to Terps that 100,000 seems like a big number, but it is not. Any full time professional breeder needs a much higher number in order to survive.

I think I should not jump into here about the number. I will stop here. I apologize if I created any misunderstanding.

Terry

[candyl70]

Terry,
I think it is just frustrating to watch quotes being misused and misinterpreted (which isn't hard when reading some of AB's posts) I think you made a really good point about the numbers. I think that terp's quote was not understood or really even read. I think you hit the main idea on the head, which is not to jump to conclusions. I apologize if i seem rude, i am just tired of reading these threads where everyone is getting nasty and calling each other liars. I would think as adults that people could talk things out in a civil manner. Guess not.


Candy

[raglanroad]

This is ridiculous, until someone here explains in full the term albinism, giving the location where the event occurs. these science geeks seem to have ZIPPO for information to share, just crude put-downs over style.
here's an opener, just food for thought. Check how it describres albinism. ( the fish article)
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/caer/ce/news/on/2005/on050607.htm#art4
here's another glimpse of albinism talk
http://www.hagblomfoto.com/article_inbreeding.htm

[Kindredspirit]

Itz okay, Candy Girl!!



http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_4_18.gif





Love Ya!


Marie~

[american breeder]

This is ridiculous, until someone here explains in full the term albinism, giving the location where the event occurs. these science geeks seem to have ZIPPO for information to share, just crude put-downs over style.
here's an opener, just food for thought. Check how it describres albinism. ( the fish article)
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/caer/ce/news/on/2005/on050607.htm#art4
here's another glimpse of albinism talk
http://www.hagblomfoto.com/article_inbreeding.htm
the first article is real close to what i have been saying all along.
i as well actually gave my formula oh my my

good work roland

AB

[etr63]

Hey AB
Post some picks of your hatchery, I’m sure every one would love to see it. I know I would.

[Kindredspirit]

Me too!! I wanna see, Marc!


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_31_7.gif



Marie!

[raglanroad]

here's a little about human albinism. starting to sound not quite as simple as those science students say.
http://albinism.med.umn.edu/newfacts.htm#class

[raglanroad]

The simple high school punnet square regarding albinism is pertinent to all living organisms that produce melanin to color themselves. Fish are no exception, Discus are certainly not above this either.

Science magazine has this to say about albinism:
"Albinism, as it's called, is an inherited metabolic disorder. Its chief feature is complete lack of melanin, the substance in plant and animal cells that produces color."

Since the Genetic make-up (DNA) in every cell of a multi-cellular organism is exactly identical it would be impossible to have some cells with pigment, and some without.:antlers: looks like the antlers were a bit premature. The article just posted for human albinism states that some individuals can produce pigment on the cooler parts of the body, due to the type of albinism present.

The technology that AB would need to have to produce Albino discus and then add back color would require intense gene-therapy which would have to be done in the 'wriggler' stage, and cost tens of thousands of dollars for each offspring. Maybe that's why discus are so expensive:o this is just a RED herring, dressed up as "science-speak".

Here is a quote from the article which may help:
"None of the tests available are capable of detecting all of the mutations of the genes that cause albinism, and responsible mutations cannot be detected in a small number of individuals and families with albinism."


Please explain Jimmy's statement that true albino f3 PAIRS give only about a quarter of the offspring albino- using the pertinent punnet. : )

[kaceyo]

Hey Marc,
I'm surprised to see ya even bother to jump back into this...(I'm searching for a postable discription but can't find one)! Maybe you should just start another thread every time this happens? Don't give up.

Kacey

[JimmyL]

If people actually breed a pair of Albino. This thread will never exist. Breeding Albino is a complete differnet ball game. I have failed for 2 years. Now I learn the tricks. Ask AB how to breed them.
Jimmy.

[Spices]

Nothing is 100 percent to man's comprehension. But only the one time experience is. And miracles do happen. Just that you never experienced it. It is quite possible for albinos to produce a total opposite genetic from the parents.

American Breeder sounds like he had the luck on his side. Keep on moving on!

Angie

[JimmyL]

You knoewledgeable ladies and Gnetlemen are actually discussing about a completely different topic other than the Albino Discus. Breed them and you will know what I mean. The actual Albino breeders are laughing at the back and very entertaining. Terry knows what he is talking about. He has many mature Albinos that he got from the creators of Albino discus and he must have told him something about the characteristic of the fish. He will meet many challenges ahead once he start breeding them. It's up to him to find out and it's no fun just telling him.... He is a professor and needs the reasearch and challenge....But others are just filling in for fun.... Look at the mirror and check your eye color. Do you called yourself green moster if you have a pair of green eyes. Brownnies for Brown eyes , blue eyes. The characteristic of an Albino discus can be SS. BD. Pigeon blood so far and our dear AB even have Red Melon or solid red albinos.... Solid green Albino.. That I have to see.... It's completely out of the character of an Albino discus. I keep saying Albino discus. It has a certain thing that only the breeder will find out if they actually breed them. It's quite challenging and very interesting....I will just keep watching and see how AB get out of it...
Jimmy

[raglanroad]

Jimmy, Do I understand you to say that albinos don't breed? So that the albinos from HK are not albinos-since they have been getting spawns that are 20-30% offspring albinos? And these offspring- again, not albino, just called that as a name?
Sorry, it is difficult for me to understand this.
And you keep saying the creators of albinos-in Asia- yet there seems evidence to say that as early as the 70's albino discus were here. Were these not albino, just the Mr. Wong fish are albino ? ( although they can't be, according to definition and breeding results) Sounds mixed up, without some better information.

I know nothing, I'm just trying to follow the logic. It does not follow through, as yet.
Dave

[JimmyL]

Mr. Wong is the world recognized creator of Albinos that all breeders from Japan and Malaysia got their original stock from. Correction..... I should have said. Mr. Wong and his associates... he is another broker in true life...Last year it cost over $1000 for the first BD albino for the Japanese and theydon't breed true just because they are not easy to breed and you have to do something to get the Albino fry. Something like bottle feeding them one by one. I'll let AB explain how he did it20 years ago. In fact, anyone who breed fish for fun will never calim so many of his fish breed true and a true fish breeder can only afford to breed one of two kind of fish. Think of using 30 pairs each strain to produce a tankfull of grade AA fish. How many pair does he need to have 30 different strain and they all breed true....Sounds like a Disney world to me...
Jimmy

[crimson cross]

Jimmy,
Mr Wong MAYBE the recognised albino breeder, but he is not the "first". Pls. get your facts straight..lol...

[raglanroad]

Jimmy, the reason I ask you is because all the others have thrown their spears and totally missed their Marc !

Since you are the only one with some argument that is not about style, printing in capitals, or on attitude.

So, leaving the difficulties of raising fry aside-another topic- some have proclaimed that the AB fish are not albino- if they show anything but total "not pigmented". It seems that the Mr. Wong fish are not true albino at all, since they throw such few albino offspring ! A pair of carriers of albinism, which do not show albinism themselves would produce the 25% ratio of albino offspring- no? 25% albino, 25% non-albino, and 50% carriers of albino trait.

And world agreement on Mr. Wong as the first, seems to be a world not looking at the record ! Lennie Laboe had albinos, and also there are a couple of mentions of albinos breeding in the 70's.
D

[ronrca]

I think we are missing each others points here. The first discussions started on what is defined an albino and scienticially albinos must breed 100% albinos. Next, we went into if albinos really breed 100% albinos. From what has been posted, that may not be the case because of different genes that can cause albinism. Third, who created the first albino and sources indicated that is has been published in books already. We'll skip the discus numbers part as it has nothing to do with albinos. Now, we are back to the beginning in what is a true albino and breeding them.

Well from what has been posted about true albinism, if albino parents with the same reccessive gene breed, their offspring must be 100% albino. Otherwise the parents were not true albinos. That is simple no? Perhaps however, the parents had different reccessive genes and as a result not 100% of the offspring were albinos. Or, the parents were not true albinos to begin with. I also have a hard time believing solid color albinos are albinos. Perhaps that we are crossed with albino and a solid to produce a solid color albino X. Perhaps that is what the name is implying rather than a solid color albino being a true albino which it can not be. Sounds like a name game to me actually.

[David_Hui]

Jimmy,

I have always wondered why people have all these cross strains with albino if albino is such a prized strain at this moment. Why wouldn't breeders try to refine the line and try to make them breed true? May be they have not successful doing so. I guess it takes many generations to make a strain to breed true and what is the definition of breeding true? 60%, 80%, 100%?

David

[ronrca]

David,
I think part of the problem being that as AB pointed out, albinism is actually a gene defect and by contining to breed them may cause health problems that get worse every generation. Perhaps that is why the cross breeding is occuring. Just a thought.

[JimmyL]

In fact, You find Albinos in Alenquer fry very often. I had albino 30 years ago along with the Bulldogs. But can they live? That the main charateristic of a True Albino... Then the question is how do you select a few Albino fry from a brood of 150 and raise them just becasue 99% will die due to blindness and very sensitive to light and all ablino fry are automatically become target for bully and even kill. Discus fry are vicious....I bet everyone had albino fry one time or another knows the problem. Is there anyone can keep them in an incubator and even raise them up full grown. Can they reproduce them... Then how? I cannot claim I'm the first but in fact I may be. But I cannot keep and raise them into F3 before introduce to the world that I'm successfully reproducing them. There are many new strains which are hidden at the back rooms of breeders just waiting to the market is right and have enough to fill a sudden rush of orders from the world.....I don't want to hijack this thread. I'll pass the ball back to AB. Like someone once said... I just simply disappear.......
Jimmy

[raglanroad]

David and Ron,
Yes, the defintion, and the science boys have stated repeatedly how simple the gentics are for albinism. Like you say, Ron.
therefore, the ONLY conclusions possible;
that the college boys don't know diddley about albinism.
That the HK fish are not albino at all. they show reduced pigmentation . big deal. one of many pigmentation disorders. We call that washed-out in dog breeding terms. Just another undesirable trait, which if line-bred, could give some type of sport.
David- true albinos should throw 100% albinos, no line- breeding involved, if the punnet square theory of simplicity is correct on albinism.

[ronrca]

Jimmy,
Who says all albinos are blind?

[David_Hui]

Dave,

Don't you think 100% is too much? :)

David

PS I am getting some altums in at the end of the month. Wish me luck!!

Your Altum buddy.

[american breeder]

David and Ron,
Yes, the defintion, and the science boys have stated repeatedly how simple the gentics are for albinism. Like you say, Ron.
therefore, the ONLY conclusions possible;
that the college boys don't know diddley about albinism.
That the HK fish are not albino at all. they show reduced pigmentation . big deal. one of many pigmentation disorders. We call that washed-out in dog breeding terms. Just another undesirable trait, which if line-bred, could give some type of sport.
David- true albinos should throw 100% albinos, no line- breeding involved, if the punnet square theory of simplicity is correct on albinism.
lol

u guys are funny
i think the article dave posted where the types of albinoism really set the whole discussion right..

if u had read it and i did..it describes the types of albinoism etc.
i think everyone involved here should read it carefully and then lets regrouop later and re discuss from its vantage point..

as far as Jimmys claims etc..i find the raisieng of my true albinos as easy as any other strain i breed, number two..the cross that i made for the subsequent development of my fish were all done with diamond types.. I can tell u it made a big difference putting those albino genes with diamond genes..

that is something no one has done yet except me.. that is why these guys are so concerned..
like all urban legends Mr WOng again is one of them..

the politics of discus is deep as one can easily see here.
who had first this etc..
of course the asian breeders want credit for everything
becuase they want the buisness ..

this entire debate is simply about who has what and how much hehe..at the bottom line..
thankfully
it is only in the minds of the debaters that it matters

my fish are out there big time..they are ALBINOESQUE hehe

Jimmy is still changeing water hopeing for a miracle and Mr Wongs claims are simply erroneous and not to be taken seriously..
Lennie Laboe first documented Albino ask Axelrod

i think hes in Sing SIng though..

oh well

AB

[JimmyL]

Is he still alive? Don't get sing sing involve. They don't want me to tell....... AB you're budding into too many people's business. I know almost everyone but not all....get their fish from...people from the hotel who they spent the night and even where they used to stay told me.... Watch out..one thing I learn how to shut up your opposition is to find out what hurts and their weakness. Is to know what they are hiding from their spouse and business trips..... Hotel is a good place to start...In fact, you can buy those info. now.I can't waste my time here anymore ....Have a good day...The only way to hide is don't so that to start with. Do you know you can trade personal i.d. in the internet. which hotel they stay and bought through their cards.

[raglanroad]

Love it. The discus world revolves around threats and hotel bugging, and credit card theft, and church twice on Sunday. Nice hobby.
It's quite obvious that people that resort to these tactics are liars and thieves, churchy folks or not.
I prefer an honest rabble-rouser like Marc. NO WONDER HE SHOWS SOME SLIGHT CONTEMPT FOR SOME OF THESE PEOPLE.
Dave

[cobaltblue]

JimmyL that was a brutal post...shame on you

[Condor]

Is he still alive? Don't get sing sing involve. They don't want me to tell....... AB you're budding into too many people's business. I know almost everyone but not all....get their fish from...people from the hotel who they spent the night and even where they used to stay told me.... Watch out..one thing I learn how to shut up your opposition is to find out what hurts and their weakness. Is to know what they are hiding from their spouse and business trips..... Hotel is a good place to start...In fact, you can buy those info. now.I can't waste my time here anymore ....Have a good day...The only way to hide is don't so that to start with. Do you know you can trade personal i.d. in the internet. which hotel they stay and bought through their cards.

Good grief. What in the world is this garbage?

[JimmyL]

Yes, What is this garbage..... pure garbage... Ive done my share and I'll leave this garbage for good....
Jimmy

[DarkDiscus]

Folks,

Please settle down here. I'm not sure that I even understand Jimmy, so I'll let that pass for now. In the meantime, let's stay constructive.

If anyone else wants to discuss albinism or albino discus, please do so, but this thread will be under close scrutiny.

Also, I am aware that rival breeders can really have some issues, however they have no place here. AB started this post for a reason and made a point. If you disagree, please say so and post why using logic and/or scientific information. Attacking him personally or using a negative attitude is not constructive.

I think this thread has some great points and info if we can all get past the anger and innuendo.

That's the only reason it's not locked already.

John

[raglanroad]

Edited

[DarkDiscus]

Okay kids,

Let's try that again.

Play nice or locked thread.

Final warning.