BEEF HEART

[satty]

Hi guys,
Greetings,all i wanna ask is,feeding the discus with beef heart is really a must?
wont the discus thrive well with the commercially available feeds and in what ways are the beef heart advantageous than the ones available? is it because its growinf fast and breeding fast,please do explain
Cheers.

[Evan]

BH is high in protien low in fat and cheap.

Some people use Extra lean Ground beef instead.

Your fish will do fine on commercial foods. But IME they will do better if BH is fed as well.

[DarkDiscus]

I use beef heart only as an occasional extra food. I don't think it is a necessity and there are plenty of other options to ensure a varied, high protein and healthy diet.

If you can prepare it it's a great food, but if you'd prefer to use other foods, that's fine as well.

John

[AADiscus]

Beef heart is high in protein along with other items such as iron vitamin b-12 and others. Some of my fish get beefheart 2 x a day and some only get it 1x a day. I am able to do water changes in the morning and the evening so I can clean up the mess that is left behind and not fowl the tank up. I like the beef heart but I also feed flakes, soaked tetra bits, earthworms and sometimes cbw. It's really up to you if you want to make the beef heart or not. I would recommend it as a daily food but that is MO.

[ronrca]

I dont use beef heart anymore. I feed dry foods, blood worms and live worms. When getting dry food, ensure it is high in protein for example NLS foods growth formula is high in protein.

http://www.nlpublish.com/

From what I can tell, beef heart is around 18% protein. Can someone confirm this please?

Thanks

[Jason]

no you don't need beefheart to grow big discus, flakes, bits, and pellets will do the trick. the secret is the w/c.

Ron that figure sounds very off, I think that number represents the content of protein before, the fat, veins, arteries, blood, and moisture are removed.

[Kindredspirit]

Anyone ever hear of bloat/constipation connected with beefheart?




Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_5.gif

[RiverCitiDiscusII]

Anyone ever hear of bloat/constipation connected with beefheart?




Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_5.gif


Marie, please read my post to Cage, then you'll have a better understanding of what might have caused the problem. Remember, beef heart alone is not an natural food found in the wild that discus would eat, and to expect discus to digest plain beef heart, does cause problems at times. To correct that problem, many have gone to adding the ingredients (wheat germ) for one to help make the beef heart easier for the discus to digest. I hope this clears up any confusion you may have had in regards to feeding beef heart. I feed a beef heart mix to my discus, but only as treat. My discus are also fed a homemade shrimp mix, blood worms, brine shrimp, tetra bits. Beef heart mix only as a treat 2 to 3 times a week.
Al

[Kindredspirit]

Al~

Thank you so much! I have four discus from Cary, and i have been feeding beefheart at least once a day, Al....dayum....live worms once a day and tetra bits and flakes once a day~ They were three months old when i got them September 9th. I have never had a problem with them in any way ....yet~

They are getting really big and look great. Do you think I should change their diet now? Now I am confused as to what their main food of the day should be? One can get so paranoid reading all the things that go wrong with discus! Sometimes i think i borrow trouble by really looking at them to see if i can find anything!! Now... the beefheart...:(

I will feed discus beefheart from this moment on only as a treat...I will tell them you said so!! lol!



Thanks Al~ ( oh and thanks for always resonding back in a timely fashion too!)



Marie!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_2.gif

[RiverCitiDiscusII]

Al~

Thank you so much! I have four discus from Cary, and i have been feeding beefheart at least once a day, Al....dayum....live worms once a day and tetra bits and flakes once a day~ They were three months old when i got them September 9th. I have never had a problem with them in any way ....yet~

They are getting really big and look great. Do you think I should change their diet now? Now I am confused as to what their main food of the day should be? One can get so paranoid reading all the things that go wrong with discus! Sometimes i think i borrow trouble by really looking at them to see if i can find anything!! Now... the beefheart...:(

I will feed discus beefheart from this moment on only as a treat...I will tell them you said so!! lol!



Thanks Al~ ( oh and thanks for always resonding back in a timely fashion too!)



Marie!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_2.gif

Marie, If your discus are doing well on the diet that you are providing them, I wouldn't go changing it. Though you could add blood worms. I know that there was someone who posted that they found maggot in their worms. IMO, I think that it was a empty blood worm casing, which does give the appreance of being something other than a blood worm. Marie, I've been feeding blood worms to my discus as part of their diet for over 11 years, without a problem. And I find it helps in getting my breeding pairs into condition to breed.
Well, Marie you take care of yourself and your discus! And I think Simply, should make you Miss WelcomeWagon Lady of Simply......as you try so hard to make all the new members feel welcome!!
:) :) Al

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Al!!


That was sweet~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_13.gifI am sure I may have ticked off some as well, but don't tell anyone!


You always seem to take the time to explain things in such a way that people are instantly feeling better by the time they are finished reading whatever upset them in the first place....at least the people I am close to here, have mentioned~

Rare Quality~




Don't Change A Thing~:angel:




Marie~

[JMArtist]

There's Always Left Over's

Last week we had steak for diner.
There was a half a piece left over. So as an experiment, I chopped it up fine and dropped a few pieces into the tank to see if my fish would eat it...they did! Every single piece and they went hunting for more.
The funny thing is, that when I was giving them the beef heart they would almost never eat it, and then I would have to go clean it out of the tank.
I then tried a piece of roasted chicken, and yup, the ate that too...they seemed to like that more then the steak.
I don't believe there is any harm in giving them a few cooked food's...I do remember seeing a Beef Heart Recipe that called for the beef to be cooked. Maybe they like their food broiled better.
I even gave some to my Angelfish, of course they ate it. They are after all garbage pails with fins!
I believe the cooked foods would cut down on the amount of blood entering the water and fouling the tank.
Does any one see anything wrong with feeding them cooked foods or a few left overs from time to time?

Next week I'll try lasagna...just kidding, but I bet they would eat it too!

[Kindredspirit]

JM~


I would love to know what others think as well with what you have done. It didnt make you nervous that something would happen to them? Apparently not~ Now if that was me, they would have all croaked in the night!

But they really liked it? hmm.....you should wait perhaps http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_109v.gif, babe, to do it again, cuz what if someone comes back and says : 'oh Hell No'! lol!!

Does seem like it would be much easier!



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_9.gif

[ed8t]

I've used beefheart in the past year and for my set-up, it's not worth the trouble and mess for just a couple tanks of fish. If I had more tanks then the $$ would add up. I do use my prepared seafood mix, bloodworms, red wigglers, bits and flakes so they have enough variety.

So whether you decide to use beefheart or not imo would depend upon your set-up. If I had to use beefheart, a commercial blend ie. Watley's would do and for just a few fish, not too expensive.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

I remember seeing a recipe for what a local hatchery feeds they're discus ................... and they use turkey hearts and livers and they are cooked before mixing ................. also cooked shrimp i believe.

You can check it out here. Gwynbrook Farms (http://www.discushatchery.com/food.html)

I dropped in a small piece of baked chicken the other day ............... but before my discus could spot it .......... the Dinosaur eel snatched it up ...... lol. He'll eat anything tho .............. lol.

And doesnt cooking the beefheart or whatever kill any germs or bacteria that may be in them??

[JMArtist]

I remember seeing a recipe for what a local hatchery feeds they're discus ................... and they use turkey hearts and livers and they are cooked before mixing ................. also cooked shrimp i believe.

You can check it out here. Gwynbrook Farms (http://www.discushatchery.com/food.html)

I dropped in a small piece of baked chicken the other day ............... but before my discus could spot it .......... the Dinosaur eel snatched it up ...... lol. He'll eat anything tho .............. lol.

And doesnt cooking the beefheart or whatever kill any germs or bacteria that may be in them??


Yup, that's where I saw the recipe.

[AADiscus]

Now the steak and chicken is some funny stuff!!!!! :D I've got a parrot that eats dinner food but feeding the fish that stuff would seem a little weird.

[satty]

Man what a recipe for the discus steak,chicken surprised by reading these,anyone heard of growing veggie discus,if so please do post your experiences and did you find out any difference between the veggies and non vegs in terms of colour shape temperament and breeding habits.
And coming to the percentage of proteins in commercial feeds(these are the ones i use) Tetra they say around 47.5%,freeze dried blood worms 59%,brine shrimp 48% and spirulina flakes 38% and i saw one member saying in beef heart its only around 18%,so scientifically what do you people think makes the beef heart stand the best?any work done on this?

[ronrca]

Thanks Jason. I believe that the 18% is including the veins/fat. I am curious what the protein value would be without the refuse.

Btw, here is a link on the beefheart values as a fyi:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

[JMArtist]

Now the steak and chicken is some funny stuff!!!!! :D I've got a parrot that eats dinner food but feeding the fish that stuff would seem a little weird.

Now really, how weird is it any way?
Feeding Discus beef heart is as unnatural for them as you can get.
When was the last time you heard of a cow floating around the Amazon being chewed on by Discus???
I mean just look at some of the recipes for fish food out there...they contain things like garlic, broccoli, spinach, carrots, shrimp, beef, veal, liver and a whole array of different spices...the list goes on and on.
So it's really not all that strange.
I think if the left overs are plain and simple without any sauces or cheeses, things like steak (trimed of any fat) and broiled chicken shouldn't be a problem. Even lamb and ham could be tried. I'm not saying give them this stuff all the time, once in a while when you have it laying around, as a treat for them.
It really shouldn't hurt them and they certainly seemed to enjoy eating it.

I would try to give them lasagna, but how would I explain the mozzarella stuck in the filter???

[satty]

Man what a recipe for the discus steak,chicken surprised by reading these,anyone heard of growing veggie discus,if so please do post your experiences and did you find out any difference between the veggies and non vegs in terms of colour shape temperament and breeding habits.
And coming to the percentage of proteins in commercial feeds(these are the ones i use) Tetra they say around 47.5%,freeze dried blood worms 59%,brine shrimp 48% and spirulina flakes 38% and i saw one member saying in beef heart its only around 18%,so scientifically what do you people think makes the beef heart stand the best?any work done on this?

[wolfbane]

I think when you take the moisture out, beef heart is something like 46% protein, like most dry foods, but has the amino acids intact. I feed a beefheart mix 2x a day, flakes and colorbits the other times, bloodworms as a treat.

[ronrca]

like most dry foods, but has the amino acids intact.
What are amino acids anyways? Does the dry food not have amino acids then?

[Dave C]

Beefheart is
18% protein
4% fat
1% ash
77% moisture

But you can't compare those numbers to dry food. Instead compare that with Hikari bloodworms:
6% protein
0.5% fat
89% moisture

Hikari brineshrimp:
6.8% protein
1.5% fat
86% moisture

And if you look at Hikari freezedried bloodworms you get this:
65% protein
5% fat
3.5% fiber
6.5% moisture

I wouldn't feed beefheart though. I hated to prepare it, usually did batches of 30lbs. I hated to feed it as it would cloud the water and leave crap on the tank bottom. The only reason I can say justifies the use of BH in my opinion is the cost, and only then if you value your time at zero. It would take me 3-4 hours to properly trim, clean, grind, mix and pack 30lbs of beefheart and clean the equipment used. It was a chore that I dreaded. I stopped using beefheart at the same time that I was experimenting with reduced w/c and skipping beefheart had a big effect on water quality. I never saw any negative effects on my fish from feedbing beefheart, though poor water quality had an impact I assume, but I wouldn't use it for the reasons mentioned.

btw, did anyone notice somewhere in the old posts here where Cary shows his new setup at home that he was only changing 30% water every 2nd day? Something like that. You go Cary.

[ronrca]

Dave,
Can you direct me to where you got the info/numbers for future reference?

[american breeder]

Beefheart is
18% protein
4% fat
1% ash
77% moisture

But you can't compare those numbers to dry food. Instead compare that with Hikari bloodworms:
6% protein
0.5% fat
89% moisture

Hikari brineshrimp:
6.8% protein
1.5% fat
86% moisture

And if you look at Hikari freezedried bloodworms you get this:
65% protein
5% fat
3.5% fiber
6.5% moisture

I wouldn't feed beefheart though. I hated to prepare it, usually did batches of 30lbs. I hated to feed it as it would cloud the water and leave crap on the tank bottom. The only reason I can say justifies the use of BH in my opinion is the cost, and only then if you value your time at zero. It would take me 3-4 hours to properly trim, clean, grind, mix and pack 30lbs of beefheart and clean the equipment used. It was a chore that I dreaded. I stopped using beefheart at the same time that I was experimenting with reduced w/c and skipping beefheart had a big effect on water quality. I never saw any negative effects on my fish from feedbing beefheart, though poor water quality had an impact I assume, but I wouldn't use it for the reasons mentioned.

btw, did anyone notice somewhere in the old posts here where Cary shows his new setup at home that he was only changing 30% water every 2nd day? Something like that. You go Cary.

i see u are a advocate for less WC

this is not a good thing

daily water changes are what make the diff kiddies between really nice fish and average or sub pare fish. It takes me about 6 weeks to get them to two inch..
because i change water twice daily and feed heavily

for hobbyist i suggest at least one good WC a day..u relate to your fish and they relate to u, they love the fresh water and a good sign of healthy fish is that they come and hover directly under the water..even after 40 years breeding i still love to see them doing this..then i know they are truely happy beings..

lazyness is not a good thing in discus
raiseing discus is like raisieng kids

u must be there every day
u cant be parent one day and the next fly the kite

AB

[Dave C]

Ron, you already know the site for the beefheart details but here it is again...

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Search for "beef heart" (must include the space) and then pick the raw one. For Hikari details go here...

http://www.hikariusa.com/products.htm

[Dave C]

AB, actually I'm an advocate for hobbyists to raise Discus in a manner that is enjoyable and successful. If you pack 60 2" Discus into a 55g tank, feed them 5x a day with meaty foods like beefheart then you will have to do large daily w/c just to keep up. But if instead you put 10 2" Discus in the same tank and fed them 3x a day with frozen bloodworms & brineshrimp you can easily get away with 50% w/c every 2nd day or 3x a week. It's not a matter of being lazy, it's a matter of being practical. I supplement the biological filters on Discus tanks with Magnum mechanical filters with micron inserts. The methods & goals of breeders/importers differ then those of hobbyists. For hobbyists there need not be a rush to grow them out... they will all get to the same place in time. Or should I say, mine did. After I changed my w/c regime from daily 50% to 50% 3x a week combined with cleaner foods fed less often & Magnum filters the growth & health of my Discus did not suffer nor was it impeded. There was also no difference in the behavior of my fish.

But let's say that more w/c are better... why change water twice daily? Why not 5x a day? Or more? How do you determine that you've changed enough? For every guy that says the other guy doesn't change enough water there's always someone else who changes even more & says that neither change enough. You could set up tanks that had their entire contents changed every hour. Where do you stop? What scientific evidence do you have to show that twice daily w/c is the optimal frequency? I judge the optimization of my w/c regime on the health & growth of my fish and I assume you do the same. After changing 50% daily for a number of years I switched to 3x a week and over the lives of those fish there was no increase in problems or reduction in growth. We can only judge our successes on the experiences we have. In my experience 3x a week 50% w/c are sufficient for the stocking density, feeding & filtration I use.

[ronrca]

Perhaps another item for discussion Id like to mention is about protein and crude protein. Can someone help me understand whats the difference?

Btw Dave, I believe all the Hikari numbers are crude protein rather than protein.

[Dave C]

Here's a discussion of protein & crude protein.

http://www.ifga.org/articles/feeding4.htm

[ronrca]

Now thats what Im talking about! Thanks Dave.


What is crude protein? Crude protein is given on the analysis of feeds and this number is very misleading. Crude protein content can be quite a bit different than actual protein content. Crude protein content is determined by a Kjeldahl test. The test determines the nitrogen content of a feed and assumes that 100% Of the nitrogen becomes protein. The nitrogen content is multiplied by 6.25 to get the crude protein content. Some ingredients like gelatin are high in nitrogen and add to the crude protein content, but do not have a biological value.


taken from http://www.ifga.org/articles/feeding4.htm

Also from dictionary.com the definition of crude protein:

the approximate amount of protein in foods that is calculated from the determined nitrogen content by multiplying by a factor (as 6.25 for many foods and 5.7 for wheat) derived from the average percentage of nitrogen in the food proteins and that may contain an appreciable error if the nitrogen is derived from nonprotein material or from a protein of unusual composition


So, in comparison, are we assuming that beef heart is high in amino acids thus being a good protein source? This leads me to the next question, does someone know the amino analysis of beef heart? Also the analysis of the crude proteins by Hikari?

Very interesting reading with an experiment on guppy breeding and different foods being fed like earthworms and beef heart. Seems that beef heart helps with the number of fry being dropped.
http://www.ifga.org/articles/feeding6.htm

[Dave C]

Given that crude protein may be the only measure that you have, you have to take is as an estimate and base your decisions on your experience of how the food meets your goals & how your fish react. All Hikari foods are measured in a similar manner I assume so crude protein is reasonable for comparing Hikari foods with each other.

[Moon]

Talking about crude protein. Frozen brine shrimp is 5% whereas Mysis is 69.5%. Is this real?

[Dave C]

No. It's not real. It's either a comparison of frozen brine shrimp with freeze dried mysis or the mysis number is based on the contents after moisture is removed.

i.e. Hikari brineshrimp:
6.8% protein
1.5% fat
86% moisture

Remove the moisture and the protein accounts for 6.8% of the remaining 14%, which equates to 48.5% protein. I'll bet you got the mysis % off of a P.E. Mysis package. I believe that's how they arrived at that amount. You'll know by looking to see what the moisture % is. It's probably not listed, in other words it's removed.

[ronrca]

But what does it really mean? How much of the crude protein is actually protein that can be used as aminos or building blocks for growth? Imo, crude protein is a poor indication of the quality of food. There must be a better way to actually measure aminos in these types of foods rather than base it on nitrogen.

According to Hikari, mysis is only around 11% crude protein.
http://www.hikariusa.com/mysis_shrimp.htm

[Moon]

No. It's not real. It's either a comparison of frozen brine shrimp with freeze dried mysis or the mysis number is based on the contents after moisture is removed.

i.e. Hikari brineshrimp:
6.8% protein
1.5% fat
86% moisture

Remove the moisture and the protein accounts for 6.8% of the remaining 14%, which equates to 48.5% protein. I'll bet you got the mysis % off of a P.E. Mysis package. I believe that's how they arrived at that amount. You'll know by looking to see what the moisture % is. It's probably not listed, in other words it's removed.
My figures are from a PE frozen Mysis package. I thought it might be a printing error.

[londonloco]

Wow, I'm getting my discus soon. I've raised them once before, and used beefheart...that was the standard 7 years ago. I plan on using a seafood mixture of Fish fillet, octopus, shrimp, crab meat, cuttle fish, silversides, cyclopeez, mysis (Hakari), ocean plankton and some sort of seaweed, usually pygmy angel frozen or spirlina flake, all ground down to tiny pieces (I have a reef tank also). Hopefully they will take flake food, and worms too. Dave, is my seafood mixture ok? I posted a thread a few days ago about the seafood, and someone responded "Be careful feeding fish, fish fillets, this causes them to lose vitamin B quickly, due to an enzyme in the meat."...your opinion dave?