Hole in the head? HELP

[etr63]

Help! Please see the thread HELP for info on what has been going on. I think he may have hole in the head. He looks bad, slime coat pealing. A big bunch of slime on his forfhead. What should I do>
Earl

[candyl70]

Earl,
Can you actuall see holes in his head? There should be 2 for their nostrils, and a few tiny little holes, but these will kind of have white lining around them. What is your temp set at? You aren't using carbon right?


Candy

[DarkDiscus]

Earl,

What you are describing does not sound like HitH to me.

Can you post pics?

John

[candyl70]

Me either... pics would be a great help Earl... see if you can get a few on here.

[Barb Newell]

Hi Earl. A pic would be very helpful.

What dosage of tetracycline did you use? Did the vet direct you?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=45896&page=2

In your other thread, you said there were slight traces of ammonia and nitrite....
I think you should do a large w/c (if your aged water is not up to temp), add some hot water to the reservoir to bring it up. I think you need to get your fish in some fresh water (as there may be ammonia and nitrites in there), put your sponge back in. Is there an airline or something in there now?

I never take the sponges out during antibiotic treatments, I just increase w/c's in case the bacteria suffers.

Barb

[Kindredspirit]

Barb~

When I grow up I wanna be just like you!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_27.gif






So wise and so appreciated~


Marie!


ps.. when Candy and I come to Canada, we may never leave, ya know....

[candyl70]

Me too, me too!!!


Barb to the rescue!!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_30_1.gif




Candy





Not until Barb teaches us EVERYTHING!!!!

[etr63]

Hi All
just stoped by the house and the slime is gane for the most part. hear is a pic if it is not clear enough i will try another when I get back in. I bought a aquaclear 70 to run carbon to remove the tetracycline, should I do this? I hear that discus dont like carbon. I will do a large WC as soon as I can.

[etr63]

Lets try this again. you can see the white mark where the lump of slime was. The spots near the tail are on the glass.
Earl

[candyl70]

Earl,
The reason many people don't like to use carbon is because it can take out the minerals and vitamins that the fish need to be healthy. Using it for one or two days won't hurt. More instances of hole in the head occur in tanks that are using carbon. (but like i said, to take out the medicine, it's fine). I would keep using the meds for now. Starting an antibiotic and then stopping before it is time builds an immunity.


Candy.

p.s.
Does not look like hole in the head to me.
Can you try and get a shot of the whole body so we can see the tummy etc?

[etr63]

Hi Candy
i will set up the filter after a big WC as soon as I can get to it. Will it totaly kill the bio filter in the sponge filter if I run it while medicating? I will try to get a better pic but he wont pose for me>
Earl

[candyl70]

Earl,
I'm not sure if the meds you are using will kill the bio-filter. I would do like Barb suggested and just up the water changes. The sooner you change the water the better it will be for the fish :) They are VERY sensitive to ammonia and nitrites.



Candy


p.s. lol... they never do.. brats!!

[etr63]

Ok I just did a 70% WC and wiped down the tank. I put the AC filter on to give me some physical filtration. I did not add the charcoal or any more tetracycline. I will wait till I hear from Barb about the meds. Barb I was instructed by the vet (best I could understand as he has a heavy accent) to treat with ¼ teaspoon of tetracycline and replace what is taken out with the WCs. I placed the sponge filter back in the tank; it has been setting in a bucket of tank water since yesterday afternoon with no heat or air. There were 2 air stones running in the tank at all times. The slime on the male seems to be gone now but he has that white mark on his forehead. The swelling of the males belly has gone down noticeably. I have not fed them since yesterday afternoon. If I left any thing out, just ask.
Earl

[brewmaster15]

Hi Earl,
when using tetracycline the typical dose is 250-500 mg /10gal water. This is carried for 10 days and theres usually 50-75% water changed before the dose. One thing to noet is the advice to treat at 1/4 teaspoon and replace whats taken out with water changes is contrary to what most fish pathologists recommend and is contrary to what I do... that med breaks down in water quickly, yielding a brown color... its usually retreated full dose...not as a replacement of whats taken out.


That fish in the pic does not look bad to me ..The mark on its forehead was white? and now looks "rubbed" . Was that mark there before you treated with tetracycline? Reason I ask is because that med will cause a discus to get skittery and that forehead mark looks like a mark that might occur if a fish flipped out in tank and scrapped itself. When you look at it , does it look like it has depth? or is very superficial?



-al

[etr63]

Hi Al
He looks alot better than he did this morning. When I got up this morning he had what I can only describe as slime hanging from his fins, and a large clump of slime on his forehead where the whit mark is now.The mark was not there last night when i went to bed. He had so much slime hanging from him it was free floating in the water. The swelling in his belly area has gone down even since this morning but still a little swollen. The vet gave me the tetracycline powder in a bag so I dont know how to measure out 250 to 500 mg. What do you think I should do? Keep treating with the tetracycline and do 50% WCs or just do larger WCs. I also have extra sponges in my other AC filters I could put in the new filter. Will the meds kill my bio filter?
Earl

[etr63]

Hi All
He is looking much better. The swelling in his belly is all most gone. He does not seem to eat, at least not that I have seen. Today I tried Black worms and He took in 2 mouths full but spit them rite back out. Intestinal Flagellates? I have not seen him poop so no sign of stringy poop. Should I try metro?

Earl

[candyl70]

Earl,
Just MO but i woudn't start to treat with any new meds just yet. He is probably still recovering and adding a new medicine might stress him out. Keep offering food in small amounts and wait until you see some poop. Are you treating with salt? If you are, i would keep adding the salt and give them nice water changes and watch him for a few days. Glad to hear he is looking better. Have you tried any blood worms? Also try feeding a few favorite foods to help entice him. You might also want to raise the temp up to give his matabolism a boost.



Candy

[etr63]

Hi Candy
The temp is at 88 degrees. I have started to raise it as of tonight. I have tried every thing frozen blood worms, brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, Mosquito larva, beef heart, 2 different types of flake and now black worms. The female in the tank is eating very well. They are acting like they are going to spawn again. He seems interested in getting a little freaky with her. so He can be feeling to sick. I HATE HAVING A SICK FISH sorry had to vent didnt mean to shout. anyway Im at a loss.
Earl
PS. I havent been adding salt.

[traco]

Salt is good especially if he's got some scratches or scuffs on him. He sounds like he is feeling better if he wants to get "freaky" with the female. The temp increase will help also with his appetite(?).

Barb

[etr63]

Hi Barb
I will start adding salt again. I wouls hat to see him waste away from not eating. What temp would be best 90 degrees?
Earl

[Barb Newell]

Hi Earl, have you treated with tetracycline or did you stop the treatment? I guess what I am asking, did he improve on his own? or meds? If you are using the tetracycline, Al suggested 10 days treatment.

Barb

[etr63]

Hi Barb
I stopped the tetracycline after he got so bad after I added it to the tank. since then he started looking better. I tried putting the tetracycline in the food since then but he wont eat. Do you think I should try treating the tank again?
Earl

[Barb Newell]

If he has improved ... maybe not. He's not eating? Give him a day or two, lots of fresh water to see if he starts eating.

Barb

[etr63]

Hi All
Well he spit out the black worms tonight also but when doing the water changes I noticed that he was pooping. That’s positive rite? The only thing is it is very very large and and light brown in color. he has been trying to pas it for about 30 min. now. I added 3 table spoons of Epsom salt just now to see if it will help. At least it seems to be getting better. When I dipped the glass into the tank to get water to mix the salt in he came to the top of the tank like he wanted food.
Earl

[etr63]

Hi All
He is pasing feces that is green now. couls this be colored from the tetracycline that I was useing or is there something to worry about still? I will continue with the Larger WCs and salt until I hear from some one about doing some thing different.
Thanks to all of you for the help I have received thus far. It great to know there is people like those here that are so willing to help the less experienced Discus nuts like myself.
Earl

[Barb Newell]

Hi Earl, a year ago my rose red was passing green and yellow crap. I was told the green was internal bacterial (dropsy) and the yellow could be capillaria.

I think green poop is definitely a sign of infection, I'd treat with Kanamycin (double dose).

Barb

[etr63]

Hi Barb
I will see if I can get some at the LFS. Will it kill my bio filter? How long should I treat for and should Idouble dose for the entire treatment time?
Earl

[Barb Newell]

Treat for at least 8 days, double dose first few, see if she improves. I know angelsplus has it, that's where I get mine.
http://www.angelsplus.com/MedicationAntibiotic.htm
I think www.jehmco.com has it as well.

Barb

[etr63]

Hi Barb
I was going to get some Kanamycin tomarrow but now he is nose down at a 45 and in the corner he has done this a few times today then looks OK. He is still not eating that I can tell. I wonder if there is also a gill flufe problem because he had one gill plate open for a while earlier. I hav some prazi that I got from barry about a year or so age. should I treat with prazi first or the Kanamycin first. I emailed barry to see about getting some more prazi but havent heard back from him yet. This is never going to end is it?
Earl

[Barb Newell]

Hi, gill flukes won't make him headstand. I think he has an internal bacterial infection and it may be affecting his swim bladder.

Soon there may not be an opportunity to treat him, it may be too late.

Barb

[etr63]

Hi Barb
I picked up the Kanamycin durring my lunch hour today. will start treatment after the WC when I can get home. I will leave the filters in the tank. Is there anything more I should know?
thanks for all your help so far I dont know wht I would do if it werent for all the help I get here.
Earl

PS he did eat some black worms today but is not interested in any thing else.

[etr63]

Hi All
Today is the forth day of treatment with the Kanamycin. He looks better but not eating like I would like to see. They are spawning as I type this. Will the Kanamycin have a negative affect on the eggs?
Earl

[Barb Newell]

Hi, not sure.

Barb

[etr63]

He is looking much better. His belly looks full after feeding even though I dont see him eat much. I think he doesnt like to have my watch him eat. Hopefully he will keep going in the rite direction.
Earl

[candyl70]

That is great news Earl!! I am glad to hear he is doing better!!!



Candy:D

[etr63]

OK I guess I may have spoke too soon. I just saw white string like poo from him. So I guess he has hex now. THat would explain why he does not eat well and spits out some food. However he is not dark and he is not hideing. He will come to the surface at feeding time. I just finished treating with Kanamycin 4 days ago. Should I wait for a while to treat with metro or start now. Wont be able to get metro till tomarrow. You ever feel like the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off till further notice?

Earl

[etr63]

Hi All
The male was dead this morning. I tried tetracycline, Kanamycin, Metro. and maricin 2. Frist time I've had a sick fish. Now I will watch the female that was in with him for a while. She seems very healthy but I dont want to put her back into the community tank just in case. I dont know what else I could have done. Thanks for all the help. I guess it is some thing that happen every once and a while. This is the first time I have bought an adult and I dont think I will buy another adult.

Earl

[Carol_Roberts]

Internal bacterial infections are very difficult to treat. I have lost discus and some that did survive never regained their balance. Watch for ammonia spikes in the tank treated with kanacyn . . . extra water changes keep ammonia at zero until filter kicks back in nin a couple of weeks.

[candyl70]

Sorry to hear the news Earl. But you did everything you could to help him out. Don't be discouraged, it is something that seems to occur and that just can't be helped. You did a great job trying to figure out what was going on, and treating. For that you deserve alot of credit!!!

Happy Holidays!!!


Candy