Just when you think you have it under control

[White Worm]

Now I have some kind of epademic in my juvie tank.

Lost two discus 2 days ago

treated with fungus clear by jungle (dissolving tablets)

lost two discus today, Did 25% WC and treated with parasite clear (dissolving tablets by jungle)

2-3 more look like they are are on their way out all exact same symptoms, I dont know what happened.

All water parameters are good.

They just started to dart around at first and then swim around crazy like they are mental. Then they just have no control of body and then they die. the turqs dull and dark. The others dont really lose their colors until the end. Anyone have any ideas. I dont have medication at hand but I dont know what to treat for. Any help would be appreciated. I was going to try the elevated temp for a week next????????? Prazi?? Where to get it?? Metro???Where to get it???? Formalin??? Where to get it????

[Alight]

I assume by parameters are good, that you tested all the usual suspects and that ammonia is 0, nitrites 0, and nitrates are 10ppm or under, no sudden pH changes.

Have you made a large water change lately? Any chance you have extra chlorine or chloramine in your tap water due to the city flushing lines, etc?

How old are these juvies?

OK, now that we've killed the usual suspects, if these are young juvies, gill flukes are a possibility. I've lost some 1 inch fry to symptoms that sound like yours, and suspected flukes. I treated with Prazi, two days on, two days off for 10 days. No more problems after that.

Another possibility is whirling disease, which is in many water sources these days, and is likely to be making the rounds of tropical fish stores.

This is caused by a protozoan, so Metro may help.

Good luck!

[White Worm]

I did a 90% water change that seemed to start this problem. yeah all normal tests are definately within tolerances. They start with darting and then it worsens from there. Swimming like they are crazy and then swimming around like they are out of control. I dont know how well these dissolving tablets from jungle work but they still seem to be having problems. Lost one more now. the other 2 dont look good. Others are darting. Had 16 all 2-2.5 in juvies. Now I have 11, maybe 9 soon. I added conditioner but I dont age water, always have done changes from tap but always did 40-50%. Each one of them seem to be getting worse very quick

[Barb Newell]

Hey Mike. Some questions.... What age are these fish? How many in what size tank? Any new additions? How long did you want between the fungus clear and parasite clear?


treated with fungus clear by jungle (dissolving tablets)

lost two discus today, Did 25% WC and treated with parasite clear (dissolving tablets by jungle)



I'd recommend, do a large daily w/c with aged water, add salt 3 tbsp/ 10 gals, wipe the sides and bottom of the tank down..... see how they are.

Do you have formaldehyde37% and methylene blue on hand?

If they're juvies, may have flukes or high bio-load in the tank. Any copepods on the glass?

Barb

[Kindredspirit]

aww, Mike! I am so sorry for this... I got all my meds at That Pet Place, or Dr. Smiths Meds...and try your lfs too... in Sac we have some luck with them! I thought you said the other day to me that you got some new fish? Or, perhaps not...but I hope you QT'd....I am sure you did...you did, didnt you? Mike, I have a ton of meds, not even opened, oodles...come get them if you want too! I am so serious....let me know if you can not find something....I think i even have PP~


Good luck, babe! Let us know how things go, okay? You, if anyone can do this~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_80.gif

[candyl70]

Mike,
I am really sorry to hear the news. I also got meds from that pet place, and you might want to try big als, and i think you can do expedited shipping with both of them.

Do you only have one tank? If you have others did you do a w/c on them too on the same day?? Try calling the person that you got the juvies from and see what they recommend, where they get their meds etc. Otherwise I would take Marie up on her offer! She is a great gal and really will do whatever she can to help you out!! Good luck and lets us know how they are doing, i'll keep my fingers crossed for you!!


Candy

[White Worm]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachment.php?attachmentid=10036&d=1133730147

Hi everyone, thanks for the replies, I cant understand it, when all is good and you think you finallt have this discus hobby working, something like this happens. Thank god it hasnt happened to my pair or the other 2 semi adults I have. (Knock on wood) They are in different tanks anyway.

This is the tank, Had (16) 2-4 month old juvies around 2-2.5 inches. Everything was going perfect. I had started feeding them FBW and they were all right at the front of the tank during feeding time. Even one that never really ate much started to really enjoy food. Kept on WC to keep the load down within limits. The turqs were just starting to get some nice colors and bammmmmm now this. I did the fungus clear about 3 days ago and then 25% WC and did the parasite clear yesterday. It doesnt say how long to let the stuff work or how long between treatments.

Hey Marie, dont worry no new additions and if I did, you better believe I would QT, probably for about 3 weeks.

It seemed to really get bad after I did a 80% or so WC and when I did it, I wiped down the inside of the tank. I usually do 40-50% but I wanted to make sure the nites werent getting too high. I always do changes from tap (I have a water softener for the house) I dont have a place to age that much water.

I saw a couple posts now talking about bubbles on the inside of the tank after wc, what problem could that mean.

I think I will do a 50% WC tonight, add conditioner and do the salt and see what happens. I have a new heater coming today for that tank so I can get it to over 90. The heater that is in there right now wont get tank temp up past 84. Is it very important to add conditioner before water?? And you only add back what you removed right?

[White Worm]

I dont have any meth blue or formaldehyde. I looked at petco last night and the closest I saw was gel tex and they also sold marycyn by mardell (and alot of other mardell products, they were out of copper safe) plus I saw some tetracycline. I think I have to make a trip to some quality fish stores and see if they have some of these meds.

Please let me know if I am right??

I plan to get

Praziquantel / Prazipro (droncit) -fish store or vet/ flukes/worms
Metronidazole - fish store or pharmacy
Methyl Blue - fish store
38% Formaldehyde/formalin- fish store or pharmacy
I heard that I may have a bacterial problem that marycyn or furan 2 might cure, should I have something like that???
I already have plenty of salt and epsom.
I dont want to spend a fortune on meds but I will get some of the things I may need for common problems.

[RyanH]

Prazi, Metro, Formalin, Methylene Blue, and Furan 2 are all good meds to have in the house IMO.

I'd check with some of the online stores as you will pay substantially less than in an LFS.

www.jehmco.com
www.bigalsonline.com
www.petsolutions.com
www.drsfostersmith.com
www.kensfish.com

hth:)
-Ryan

[Alight]

I'm going to bet on a combination of gill flukes and chlorine or chloramine, or low O2 or high CO2 in your water. The flukes set them up and the Cl2 finishes them off.

Do you have chloramine in your tap water? Are you using a conditioner that takes care of chloramine if you do?

Another possibility is high levels of CO2 or very low O2 levels in your tap water. These all could lead to the deaths you've reported, with a large water change. If you cannot age your water, do not do more than a 50% change. After a change, increase aeration for several hours.

[White Worm]

Great sites for meds thanks

[White Worm]

I use aquasafe for conditioner, it says it removes cholramine and chlorines from the water. I was going to change over to prime once the bottle was empty like pretty soon. I usually have the air bar along the back running all the time but I took it out. Maybe I should put it back?? Got it, didnt know that I should only do about 50% with tap. I have always done about 40-50% normally but this time I did about 80-90%. This seems to be what triggered this horrible chain of events and I dont know if things will get better. Throwing stuff at it doesnt seem to be the way to go either. They do seem to be hanging out at the top of the water except the ones that are sick are kinda laying on the bottom and swimming around uncontrollably.

[LizStreithorst]

You really need to find a way to store, aerate, heat, and treat your water for cholramine and clorine 24 hrs. before changing it.

Liz

[Ryan]

Mike,

I would aerate the tank as much as possible if any of the things Al mentioned are true. So yes, put the airstone back in. This will accomplish a couple things. It will create more surface agitation and aerate the water a little better, increasing the oxygen in the tank. It should also help things like CO2 and chlorine to off-gas faster, at least that's my experience when aging water.

The levels of CO2 in your water can be a dangerous thing if you aren't careful. When I first got city water, I did a big water change on a tank of grow-out angelfish I had. I didn't know anything about CO2 being a problem because it wasn't something I dealt with prior to that. All of my angels had tiny bubbles on them, their fins clamped up, their eyes went cloudy, and they all looked like they were dying. It took a couple days to get them back to normal. I aged my water from then on when doing large changes. Otherwise I only did maybe 25% a day from the tap.

Ryan

[White Worm]

Bubbles on fins and on side walls of inside tank when I changed the water. That sounds like it alright. Added back the air bar and added salt, i'll let them relax and see if anything improves. I did see some stringy white poop now from a couple of them. Maybe this is from the parasite treatment?

[Timbo]

about bubbles on the inside of the tank after wc, what problem could that mean.

that comes form not aging the tap water...gases build up because of the water being under pressure in the muni water system, when you open your tap the water still contains excess gas but it will release it gradually (16-24hr) when its not under pressure (in your storage container that you are going go right out and buy:))

this also allows the ph to settle out as the ph will usually change over the 24 hr period the water is off-gassing in your storage container.

with a 90% water change, i dont think you can get away without aging/off-gassing/ph stabilizing properly...smaller ones maybe, but even then i would age the water

good luck and all the best, let us know how things turn out :)

[hexed]

Mike,
I do get tiny bubbles on the glass of my tank and they are nothing. They are caused when the tank is refilling. I cannot use a python because my faucets are not threaded. I fill a large rubbermaid trash can with fresh water and add NovAqua to it. I then use a power head and attach a half inch hose to it and pump my water back into the tank. Yes I can use tap water but I do NOT put the tap water directly into the tank and then add conditioner. I mix it in the rubbermaid can first. If the discus look a little stressed I had some salt. I always have both aquarium salt and when I go to the food store I pick up NON iodized salt as well esp when it is on sale:) Never hurts to do this as sometimes I run out of aquarium salt :)
I had a discus go nuts in my tank, he kept try to jump out and run into the glass. He did die from it because the damage he caused to himself was unbelievable. Check your heater and be sure it is not leaking. If there is water in it then it is leaking. A lot of people never check for this. I had a broken thermometer in one of my tanks and never notice it it at all. Somehow the very bottom broke and I had silver balls (mercury) sitting at the base of a potted plant. If I didn't notice the weight balls I would have never even seen it :(
I have often said try not to panic, but it is natural. The first thing I do is get on here and post what is happening and the more indepth you go the better help you get. Don't worry about grammer - your stressed out. For example Barb has asked how big the tank is and you have not answered that ;) It is easier to pinpoint the problem when as much info is given and no one needs to guess. After I post the problem I then go and do a water change wiping down everything by this time someone has answered my call for help and if I need to add meds, my tank is ready for them. I also have lots of air running in my tanks. I have two sponge filters, air wand and 2 big square airstones running in the tanks. I believe you can never have enough air ;)

[White Worm]

Tank is 75g bow, pic is higher up in this thread, I did see some condensation inside the heater, it isnt broken but could this be a huge problem, I am getting new heater today anyways. I have not used aged water but yes, i will be getting rubbermaid garbage can and start doing it. My wife is going to freak out because we have little room as it is but its gotta be done. I'm beyond freaking out now. I just have to start with the basics and get these guys better off. I have 11 left and 2-3 more dont look so good. Once I treated with some stuff, it seems that 7-8 of them started to look a little more energetic and happy, dont know yet, still a little too early. 2 40g capacity sponge filters, 2 hang on backs and air bar about 1.5 ft long.

[Alight]

As hexed (Frank?) said, don't panic. These things happen sometimes. All of us who've been at it long enough have had some bad things happen. The trick is to learn from it, then it won't happen again.

I like the idea of at least putting your water into another container, if not overnight and aerated, at least aerated and treated with anti chlorine agents for a while.

You may lose another fish or two, but I'll be that most of your fish survive and grow into great adults!

You can tell if you have substantial CO2 levels in your tap water by simply measuring the pH of your tap water as it comes from the tap, and after you've aerated a sample overnight (just shake up a glass of the stuff occasionally if you don't have a spare airstone and pumb). If the pH out of the tap is much more acid than after the water has been aged (a full pH point or more) then you have a lot of CO2 in your tap water.

However, this won't tell you if you have low O2 levels.

O2 will dissolve into water fairly quickly so if you can aerate your change water for even an hour or so, it could help things. It will also help to outgas the chlorine and any other dissolved gases.

[Breadhead]

Stringy white poop is a sign of internal parasites.... get some Metro!!! I use Metro flakes from Jehmco and they have always worked for me... puts the medicine in the digestive tract where its needed! Raise your temp to 94ish,(You may have to go buy a heater that goes that high, but its a good idea to have at least one on hand) then treat with the metro for about a week, then ease the temp down to normal over the next week. If they are darting too bad, I find turning off the lights will calm a savage discus too...

[White Worm]

Thanks for all the reassurance. I have to realize that this is always a learning experience but I wish it didnt have to end the way it has when you learn the hard way. I'm not as concerned with the money aspect but I really enjoy these fish and I hate to see them suffer in any way because of something I did or didnt do. They deserve much better. At this point, I will not do large water changes from the tap. It is although hard to believe that it is the water because I dont have any problems with my other two tanks. The only difference is that these guys are still babies and my other tanks have adults or semi adults. I truly believe it was something to do with the large WC and not premixing conditioner before I put the water into the tank. The ph coming out of my tap is actually lower than after I let it sit. My tanks usually sit around 7.6 or so ph. My breeder pair gets acid buffer to keep their ph around 6.4. I also did take out the air bar for a while because i didnt think it was making a difference other than cooling the water that the heater is trying to heat, guess I was wrong, more aeration the better. We will see :(

[Kindredspirit]

Okay....I have a quick question if I may hijack your thread a teensy weensy bit, Mike?


Talking about tiny air bubbles everywhere....Always, and I mean always, after every wc on all tanks, I would get tons of these tiny air bubbles on the inside ( obviously..quiet, JM!) and I just blew it off, cuz it always happened...it was like a really cool clean feeling, actually!

But the two last times, absolutely none!! Not a one! And i just did a wc change on the babies tank....the 30gal...not one bubble...


So, my question for all you scientific ones, what happened? And why all of a sudden after 4months, no more tiny air bubbles??

And is this a good thing?



Thanks, Mike....I have all those meds, so come and get em if ya want~



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_70v.gif

[Dave C]

I'm guessing you aerated your water in a holding tank before doing a w/c. If you do that there shouldn't be any air bubbles when you do a w/c. If you do it straight from the tap there will be.

[White Worm]

Just an update,,, the further I thought about this,,,, I wanted to know what actually was the different thing I did this time and not the others,,, I think I found it,,, No diseases I think. Normally when I do water changes, I allow the water to splash into the tank, therefore releasing most co2 gases through the bubbles,,,, please let me know if this is correct (aeration). When I did my last big WC in the 72g tank, I used water right out of the tap like normal but,,,,,,,,, I left the one end that was filling completely under water during the whole filling, then added conditioner at the end. While the water was filling from the end of the python, I noticed a sorta smokey look coming out of the tube while filling (whisping into the tank like smoke, kinda weird I thought), I didnt think much about it afterwards, just thought it was maybe the slight difference of temperature but now I am thinking a large amount of co2 gas that didnt have a chance to gas off???? What do you guys think???? Could this be my delemna??? Experts??? I also had removed the air bar that I had previously had in there forever. Do you think they have suffocated?? Breathing hard is one of their symptoms, dark, dull color. They dont even lose their color until they die.

[Kindredspirit]

I'm guessing you aerated your water in a holding tank before doing a w/c. If you do that there shouldn't be any air bubbles when you do a w/c. If you do it straight from the tap there will be.


No Dave, I do not aerate my water at all..straight from the tap like always....I havent done anything different....at least i do not think so....So come on, you are one of the smartest people on here....whatcha think?? And you never said if having all the bubbles was a good thing or not?


Mike~

You made me think too, cuz sometimes i put the python under the tank water when adding so not to make a big disturbance, but sometimes i do not get to it in time....hmm....


Marie~:angel:

[Elcid]

Sorry to get in on this so late, did you change a lot more water than usual the time before ur fish starting to get sick? Do you use a mix of hot and cold to get the temp to match ur tank? If you must change water directly from the tap don't change more than 25% at a time and allow atleast 4-6 hrs between changes!

[White Worm]

Yes, more than usual and yes, adjusting temp to match tank temp as close as possible. Usually I can tell by touch now if I am close to about 82-85. Used from tap and I think next time slower fill and more turbulence.

Marie, Turbulence wont hurt the fish and I think some of them actually like to hang out in the wash for a little bit. Most people say that they dont like alot of movement in their tank but I dont think they care. Mine would swim through the torrent from the hang on backs and didnt care much. It just knocked them around a little and they were on their way.

I have heard many times that it is good to let the water splash which allows gases to escape. I didnt do it this time and now I have discus with problems.

Plus I filled it rather quickly, that was probably a huge dose of co2 with no aeration except what air comes from the two sponge filters. Plus there was 16 of them sharing very little oxygen I think. Hopefully the rest do better after a correct WC tonight and plenty of aeration now. I think I can save 10 out of 16. We will see

[Dave C]

If you're going to do w/c from the tap then definitely let the water splash into the tank to help rid it of dissolved gas. Ideally you should store, heat & aerate the water for at least 12 hours but given you're not doing that then do whatever you can to degas it when you add it. I'd also add the dechlor first and then add the water. There was a thread on a forum years ago about whether the dissolved gas that you see coming out of the water and sticking to the tank sides & gravel is harmful to the fish. Much was made of this and no one reached agreement on the danger. But when dissolved gas comes out of your water the pH will change, usually it will drop. So that's best done in a holding tank rather then your aquarium. The larger the w/c the greater the risk. Then there's the possibility that there was something off in your tap water one day and not the next day. Overall I find it much safer & it gives me peace of mind to store my water for the w/c the next day.

[Kindredspirit]

Mike!

I am so sorri for all this, man! Hang in there...and come back to let us know...So i shall let the water splash a little then....thanks! I was just talking to Candy and telling her all the meds I have: here is the list:

Prazi Pro,Malachite Green, Para Guard, Formalin 3, Meth Blue, Quick Cure, Maracyn-2, Furan 2...and PP..

All of which i have never opened, Mike! Couldnt really tell you when to use what at what time, either...lol...the bottles all say tho...I bought all the meds that Carol suggested...

So, if you ever need any of them, and can not find....I have them, okay?http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_12_16v.gif


Marie~

[traco]

I've just been going through something along the same line. I always did water changes straight from the tap to the tank, right temp, add Prime. Three months with no problems, then the fish started to not look great. Treated for ick, then hex, then spots that came and wouldn't go away. Dosing medicine and not much improvement. The clincher came when I sold three of my discus to downsize and within 2 days, they started improving in their new home!! At their new home, they do water changes with aged water and his PH is a bit lower.

I am now aging my water at least 12 hours, sometimes 24. It has been a struggle but slowly the fish are improving. Cloudy eyes, spots, etc... are all going away. I was really stubborn with not wanting to age my water. But to see the improvement with just going to basics, it's been worth it. I was also having lots of bubbles in the tank, on the fish sometimes, the sponges would float; more so in the last month or so. Just my experience and which had a good outcome, thank goodness!:D

so, there is hope, Mikscus. Good luck.:)

[candyl70]

Eeesh guys, you are scaring me. Cliff told Marie and I not to use RO water, which i have because it will kill the babies. I have not been aging the tap water and so far the babies have been fine. But since i haven't been making or storing any RO water for a couple weeks, i think im going to age my tap water tonight!!

Thanks for the heads up everyone, and i hope your fish get better Mike!!!
Lots of luck!!



C~

[Elcid]

Meds should always be a last resort; if ur fish look unwell 1 hr after a water change, think what you might have done differently. The best solution is always to get them in good water ASAP! How to do this? Drain out all the water in your tank and transfer some good water from you "other" tank (hopefully you have one and didn't change the water in that one yet!) :), Don't move the fish into a bucket of good water, they won't like U for it and ull be sorry! You don't need much water, just enough to keep ur discus vertical would be great!, It would be nice if the sponges could function though!, so maybe if you could manage to fill the tank enough for that it would be great! Then, add some salt! and wait! After ur fish seem happier!, start adding fresh water a little at a time to bring ur tank back up to the full level!

[White Worm]

Update,,, I lost 2 this morning, down to 5. Lost 11 total juvies. The ones I have left look fine and seem to be recovering but I'm not taking any more chances. Its not fungal and its not parasites. I am going to put them in different tank (small QT tank) and drain the 75, clean and start over with it. With only 5 juvies there wont be a big bio load and as long as I stay with 30% every couple days, they should be fine. I think I just need to give them clean tank and water that has been primed, heated and aged. Back to square one (basics). I think I will stick with adults from now on until I have my own fry. Juvies are difficult with limited experience. I'm glad to report that my 2 semi adults in the 85g are doing fantastic and my newly acquired pair of breeding adults from kenny are also doing fantastic. Eating like horses and of course leaving me dirty surprises after eating. I didnt know 2 adult fish could poop so much and so big. No sex dances yet with the pair but I think I will give them a little colder water next time I change some water, i've heard that sometimes gets them moving. Any ideas?? Kenny checked my tap water before I bought them and said I should be good to breed and I keep my ph @ 6.4 temp 82-83.

[Elcid]

What size and type are ur juvis? Did u use any salt yet?

[White Worm]

Already been there done that long time ago, now I have moved my remaining 3 discus to a 10g QT tank, emptied my 75, flushed with clean water and letting dry. Is there anything else I should do to the tank to insure that it is clean? I already cleaned sponge filters and I will clean the hang on backs before I put them on. All lines will be cleaned or new. Since it is empty, I will paint back,sides and bottom this time.

[kaceyo]

If you want to be sure ALL the bugs are dead fill the tankwith about 10 gals of water and add a gallon of bleach (10% solution). Scrub the tank real well inside and out paying clse attention to the top plastic frame where they can hide under edges. I usualy let it sit w bleach in it for awhile before rinsing. Rinse till there is no chlorine smell at all and let it dry for a few days. You should be good to go after that.

Kacey

[Elcid]

That's really a shame to loose so many at once! It happens, put it behind you and get a good fresh start!

[ssolek]

I have encountered the same problem over a 9 month period 1 discus every couple of months will do this. In a tank where the conditions are as such a pair are laying eggs at the same time 1 is starting to act out. I have yet to figure it out. I have not medicated the tank. I have pulled the individual out and medicated but never saved. All start with acting wild not really whirling just dashing and into things hard. Some whith in an hour just lay over and die others take a day. I have lost 4 this way. All still looked full color and eating right up till they go crazy. The last one started right after feeding live brine. It is a large tank over 200 and the only problem is with snails I know of. Ammonia nitraites and nitrates all accecptable limits. All but one adults. The one juv was 3 inches. Tank has been setup since May 2005 all discus came from same hobbiest who hasn't added any outsiders for over 1 year. He has never had problem. I get my water from a well his from city. Who know what trace elements could be in the water. But why only 1 fish at a time?