Discus Fish Stores

[White Worm]

I started this because I read someone else went to a store and had the same experience I had. I think we should post here about some local experiences. I know this wont apply to everyone but I know there are alot of hobbyists in cali.

Fairy Lakes Discus - Visited last month not a good experience

Sunrise Tropicals - Visited last month Fish- :D Prices - :shocked2:
I think some of the prices were good and I think you will get what you pay for as far as quality, there were some good looking fish and all looked healthy and clean
Local Breeder - Kenny Cheung - Visited last month and this month.
(:fish: = :sun: :thumbsup: :D Price = :thumbsup: :sun: :D

Exotic in SAC = Fish ;) Thats where I got Sampson and Dalaila and I took a chance on LFS and discus and they have turned out to be good fish. Price = :D $47 each 4 inch Blue turq, red turq, melon.
I know Marie has some things to say about Cliffs
I would also like to see some pics or something about goldengatediscus- I hear good things (is it bridgette?) Local breeders, Lets here from you, I love field trips to san fran area.
Anyone visit alameda? Any others??

[White Worm]

The fish did look good but I have heard other unfortunate instances. I dont have any personal experience but I kinda thought the prices were high and you could get a better deal from local breeders.

[candyl70]

Ceasar's Tropical Fish here in Santa Rosa is a nice store and has really clean tanks and healthy fish. They are pricey though!



Candy

[DarkDiscus]

Guys,

Here is our policy directly from the site rules:


This site has a zero tolerance policy for anything posted in a negative fashion about other members, fish breeders, wholesalers, or suppliers. We feel this is the fairest policy possible to all parties. Positive comments are welcome. This is called a Positive Feedback System. If someone asks for experiences with certain breeders and you have had a negative one, simply state that it was a negative experience and ask those interested to e-mail you for details. In no way is this site to be involved in buyer/seller disputes. Posts of this nature will be removed at the discretion of the owners or their agents


Please edit your posts to comply with this policy. I edited one of Candy's already, but since I am sure no one intended anything truly negative by this posting, I'll let you guys moderate yourselves!

Thanks!

John

PS. I think a thread praising good breeders, LFS etc. is great and helps others find good fish! Just please comply with the non-negativity aspect of the rules!!

[candyl70]

Sorry about that John, thanks for giving the benifit of a doubt, I edited the post.


Candy

[Timbo]

with the stated policy, how bout this then:

good = dont get near with a ten foot fishnet
great = not bad, but be careful
outstanding = average
tremendous = above average
stupendous = buy without fear
no comment = make sure your hospital tank is set up and stocked with every med known to mankind

[Kindredspirit]

umm... should we be doing this guys?? Ones rep could be destroyed on a dime here.....



I think we should check with a VIP before continuing...This could cause some real problems if this thread keeps going....



IMO


Marie~:angel:

[jeep]

Fairy Lakes Discus - Visited last month :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :mad:
I have been told the owner is just looking to get out of the business, fish looked bad cramped and dirty

LOL... Herman's been saying that for 30 years :D And his store was even more cramped 30 years ago :D He's one we could all learn from ;)

[White Worm]

Edited John,,,Sorry,,, No ill feelings were meant,, just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of things in their area. Good idea,, PM if negative. Thanks for the consideration, Mike

[IMCL85]

These store prize is soo high consider in USD + shipping and thats like 300+ dollars if I want to get 6 discus and the money they paid in fish flea market or other place is so low. LOL I just receive my email from a friend of mine in China I have ask him about the prize over on the market (before I my current pair spawned) I was about to visit and specially in discus its like <30 dollars chinese for a peice and consider in bowl deal u can get discount not to mention lowering their prize you can easily get fish for like $15-20 a peice and thats not USD we talking about lol that would be like least then 3 dollars for a discus. And on Mong Kok Hong Kong lol 40 dollars in chinese as retail prize can be lower as well in bowl. This is just Insane compare to discus in america ;) .



Cheer
Jack

[White Worm]

What?????

[Timbo]

i think his fish won a prize, and there's a dispute as to the prize money amount..but i could be wrong

[April]

no..price. he just has prize instead of price. yes..you can get cheap discus over there..but cheap isnt always the best ...and their costs are far less than ours with their water and less hydro etc. by the time you do all the shipping and importing etc..though..the stores over here have to add all their expenses..and still turn a profit. overhead etc. no outdoor market..retail space..and leases are costly.
ive heard fairy lakes leaves all the algae on his tanks..etc..look dirty..but he grows big fat healthy fish. and..lets face it hes been there for 30 years..and still there so..he must be doin somethin right. just his technique is all. hes successful in raising and spawning..so hes one up on alot of people.

[Kenny's Discus]

Yes April Herman is a 20-yr old friend of mine and I dare to say that many(not all of course) current breeding/raising method were originally derived from him. Over the yrs I myself have learned such a great deal from him (as we are both from HK) that I am thankful to have him as my mentor. You are very correct that even though his current setup are less then desirable his techniques are still super. In fact I just paid him a visit (with Dim Sum - bribing :-0 ) and we chatted till dawn. In all he's just a very friendly, honest guy that I respected and I am thankful to have him as a friend of mine.

Kenny

[trusty]

i have gotten nice fish from him and for good price as well. The fish are healthy didnt have problems with herman's discus ........

[IMCL85]

no..price. he just has prize instead of price. yes..you can get cheap discus over there..but cheap isnt always the best ...and their costs are far less than ours with their water and less hydro etc. by the time you do all the shipping and importing etc..though..the stores over here have to add all their expenses..and still turn a profit. overhead etc. no outdoor market..retail space..and leases are costly.
ive heard fairy lakes leaves all the algae on his tanks..etc..look dirty..but he grows big fat healthy fish. and..lets face it hes been there for 30 years..and still there so..he must be doin somethin right. just his technique is all. hes successful in raising and spawning..so hes one up on alot of people.

nono u get me wrong what I'm trying to say is that america prize vs other country flea market prize is generally insanely different. And how ever since I'm not a importer what I do is I get a some back during this trip I have to make no matter what in general its better for me to get it there instead get it from my LFS hehe why would I be spending extra 200+ more dollar for fish if I could easily spend those on some better stuff for my fish (ig bigger tank etc). And cheap doesn't mean its bad lol most of the discus sell in the market is from taiwan or asian fish farm and same as many discus I see imported to here. The fact is I dont really see much difference if I buy it there or from US since both place will require shipping and as I could carry them too from the trip. I dont think eqquitment to ship would be the problem there as they r professonal dealer. I never check out fair lake discus as its way too far from my home. Another airline ticket specially for discus I doubt I can effort that. But still tho some of the Local breeder also have some nice one over here in Canada like barb and kumlin in my area. But still again after I obtain my RO unit I dont think its alot of different in water between here and China and consider there also different between US and canada water so really lol no different I bought it from other place or US.





Cheer
Jack

[Kenny's Discus]

Yes Trusty. I believe that's the type of person you want to deal with when it comes to discus: knowledge, price and friendliness.

Herman told me 36 yrs ago (I asked for his permission regarding the following disclosure and he's ok with it, in fact I printed out a lot of these posts regarding other people's opinion about him and he got some good laughs out of them - he's in his 70's BTW) when he was about to immigrate from Hong Kong to the U.S., he kept 10 of his most beautiful/beloved pairs and sold the rest of his stock. He said that during that time an average lunch would cost like 10 cents (HK$) whereas his juvenile discus(3") can be sold for $5! In fact he said that the money he got from selling off his whole stock actually paid for all the plane tickets of his whole family. (not saying he couldn't afford them back then but just to illustrate my point) Now we know how "valuable" discus were back in the 60's...

Just a little old story I want to share with you all.

Thanks,
Kenny

[Kenny's Discus]

BTW Jack, I think you meant PRICE not PRIZE right??? (no offense)

Kenny

[IMCL85]

wow that amazing back in the 60s :). I bet that time discus is really hard fish to kept at home aquarium unlike today we have internet as our information book. How ever back then how he ship his discus? I doubt there would be heat pack as right now or sponge box?

[IMCL85]

BTW Jack, I think you meant PRICE not PRIZE right??? (no offense)

Kenny

yea its price but I like to spell it as prize due to c and z makes the samilar sounds :).

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Kenny!


That was a great story!





Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/28/28_4_11.gif

[White Worm]

Hey Kenny,,

I hear mixed reviews about fairy lakes and when I went there, the conditions didnt look so good. Maybe looks can be deceiving. You are right, he has been doing something right for over 30 years and has no problem breeding and growing big adults when I cant even keep a tank of 16 juvies alive. I guess his techniques are just a little different from the mainstream ideas. That must be really cool to sit and talk with someone like that and gather all that info about discus. If you say he is good to deal with, I'll go with that reference because I trust your opinion as a discus guy and a good friend,

Mike

[CliffsDiscus]

Kenny,
Herman Chan is one of the most respect dealers, Discus Breeder in San Francisco. He is world known by some of the top Discus Breeders.
I still see him and his wife at the dealers meeting and he tells me about his latest
Discus. Herman Chan came from China with only $500 in his pocket
but with his success with raising Discus, he was able to raise 3 children.
one is currently a doctor. This is a rags to well to do story. All of this
because he is the Master.

Cliff

[April]

glad to hear someone enlightened about herman. first looks can be decieving when you are taught..wipe down the glass daily..and daily wcs..but some old masters learnt all they know..on their own. no internet. and it works for them.
in the old days..i hear they used to ship fish in tin cans. think jason could add to this..or rod. no bags..as no plastic. also the old tanks used to have little hot stoves under them to warm the water.

[Kindredspirit]

Kenny,
Herman Chan is one of the most respect dealers, Discus Breeder in San Francisco. He is world known by some of the top Discus Breeders.
I still see him and his wife at the dealers meeting and he tells me about his latest
Discus. Herman Chan came from China with only $500 in his pocket
but with his success with raising Discus, he was able to raise 3 children.
one is currently a doctor. This is a rags to well to do story. All of this
because he is the Master.

Cliff



RoAd TrIp!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_115.gif Now, Cliff, why didnt you take Candy and myself to see this Master?? hmm.....? lol!



Marie~

[Kenny's Discus]

Cliff - no doubt he's very respected by many top Discus breeders in the world. In fact he was interviewed by the Japanese media in the 70's and that indeed brought a lot of attention to his store. He still has those newsprints at the front of his store (laminated on the right when you first go in) and everytime I told him he look "handsome" in those pictures he's sooooo happy! :-)

We(my wife & I) also talked to Herman's wife(Mrs. Chan) everytime we visited them and she kept telling us it's too much work to be dealing with Discus! Imagine that after all these yrs they've spent doing it! :-)

To add to the 3 children(where 1 is a doctor) he raised, he also has 3 properties(1 on Erving) that he bought with the $ he earned from raising/selling discus. I guess the profit margin might be a lot higher back then when you were only one of the few who specializes in what you do.

Cliff - I was told by Herman that he originally came from Hong Kong to the U.S.??? Could he be borned in China, went to HK when he's young and subsequently came to the U.S.? Just curious...

Thanks all,

Kenny
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=45944

[Kenny's Discus]

You're welcome, Marie.

Quote:

"If you say he is good to deal with, I'll go with that reference because I trust your opinion as a discus guy and a good friend,"

Thank you Mike. He's very, very good to deal with. If you want to go visit him again the next time when you drop by I'll go with you. We'll have a good time for sure!

your good friend as well, :-)

Kenny

[Willie]

Since there are no other retail establishments that deal primarily with discus, how do you compare Herman's place? He's not a real fish store. He's not a hatchery. He's not an importer.

I found Fairy Lake Discus Palace about 8 years ago in the Yellow Pages, when I was just starting out. Going there is like visiting something out of a mystery movie. Herman is old school and he doesn't tell you everything he does. If you believe Herman, he doesn't change water and he feeds blackworms. In fact, he does everything wrong. But he's got lots of pairs with babies on their back. So how bad can it be? How many so called "breeders" out there are really importing? You know Herman is not.

Herman hasn't gone out and purchased the latest strain for resale. That's not his thing. But if you want healthy discus at a reasonable price, Fairy Lake is a good place to go. You know where those fish came from. You know they are not hormoned. You know they are not colored.

I've bought fish in Beijing. They are hormoned to the max. Throughout Asia, if you want quality fish, be prepared to pay. I've seen high quality LSS running $200 for 3" fish. If you want LFS grade Blue Diamonds, you can get them real cheap.

So where you go depends on what you want. You want the latest strains, go visit Cliff or Samson. If you want standard strains with a known history, go visit Herman. If price is more important than quality, it really doesn't matter where you go.

Willie

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi Marie,
How those babies Discus doing keep up the feeding and the waterchange.
I had another appointment that day that you and Candy came over but maybe
next time we can go do a Discus visting to some of the local breeders,
maybe with the Bay Area Discus group. We can visit Herman Chan,
Wong, Lee, Hung, Ting, Dick Au, Al Yee, Seto, Fong and etc.

Kenny,
I didn't want to mention the income properties but I can name more than 3,
and yes they are all from fish sales. By the way did you recently start back
into the Discus keeping, because I don't remember you in the San Francisco
Discus Study Group, keep up the great work. I don't know if Herman lived in
the Hong Kong area, he keeps calling his resident in China the village, he was telling me because there are or was two other Chans doing the Discus business in San Francisco.

Regards,
Cliff

[Kenny's Discus]

Willie - no disrespect here, but my experience with Herman is somewhat different than yours. When I ask him something about discus he would explain them in such details that I sometimes have a hard time remembering them all. Could it be because of the fact that Herman doesn't speak English well at all and thus "he doesn't tell you everything he does"?

Also, when you said "he does everything wrong" maybe but that's in today's standard. Back then(40+ yrs ago) there weren't as much research done on Discus(health, nutrition, standard, etc...) and I doubt he even had access to FBW. Maybe 40 yrs from now today's way of raising/feeding/breeding discus will also be considered somewhat "wrong"? Just a thought...

Kenny

[Kenny's Discus]

Quote:

"I didn't want to mention the income properties but I can name more than 3,
and yes they are all from fish sales."

--I was only saying what Herman has told me during our previous conversation. I did ask him about these disclosures prior to posting them and he's ok with it. In fact we were talking about publishing a book of his life with Discus for him just the other day, since he'll be retiring soon...(now I know how many times he's mentioned that lol)

"By the way did you recently start back into the Discus keeping, because I don't remember you in the San Francisco Discus Study Group, keep up the great work."

--Cliff thank you. And no I have been raising discus since I was 8 in HK and up to this point continously. I've also raised some discus when I first came to the U.S. when I was 13. Do you remember those beautiful White Butterflies from Herman's place in the late 80's? I purchased a few of them from him and eventually was able to get a few pairs out the the group.

The reason you don't see me in the SFDSG or BAD meeting is because for the last few years I've had many serious, difficult family issues(families' health) which I have to deal with. I just couldn't find time to join those wonderful meetings. I would love to chat with you in the near future when my current situation changes. Take care.

Best Regards,
Kenny

[April]

thanks for telling more about Herman Willy. i remember you telling me about your visit there. thats what i based my info on. : ) I was hoping you'd see this thread.
as the saying goes..if it aint broke..dont fix it. if i was there..id for sure go and get some nice big fat healthy discus from an old experienced breeder. theres not many breeders who have stuck it out thru thick and thin..like Herman and a few others ive heard about. i think its like the tortoise and the hare. slow and easy wins the race. no wipe outs from disease importing..no hormones..and..i bet he could tell you or show you his whole family tree of whos the father..mother..grandmother..etc etc.

[White Worm]

Cliff,, Kenny,, Marie,,
I'm in the next time there is a field trip. I have always wanted to see some of the local breeders that we dont hear very much about.

Cliff, sounds like you have some connections in the world of discus and it would be great to attend something like that if at all possible.

Kenny,, Next time I visit (soon) Maybe we can take a trip down to fairy lakes and see what the behind the scenes looks like. On the outside things didnt look great but you cant judge a book by the cover. Plus, I think you have some young fish waiting for me and maybe some bigger ones? Maybe next weekend? I Hope everything is going well for you at home with the family.

[Willie]

No value judgements on my part, Kenny. I've learned a ton of stuff from Herman and always enjoy visiting the store. But after 5 - 6 years, I still can't explain how he does it.

When you talk to Herman, he claims to only make 10% water changes weekly. His tanks are murky. He runs box filters that put out 1 bubble every 10 seconds. He feeds blackworms. The frys stay in the tank so long that they feed on the blackworms themselves. These are all things that are "wrong" by today's standards, but those pairs are carrying babies.

Does he really do all these things? Who knows? If he does, he knows something we don't -- and he isn't telling. If he doesn't, he's not telling either. :)

I speak Chinese. I've been buying from Herman long enough that I was invited into the his inner sanctum -- back in the apartment, where he keeps his best breeders. As far as I can tell, they also get 10% W/C's, very little aeration, box filters, blackworms, the works...

On the other hand, Herman has shared a lot more than all those name breeders in Asia...

Willie

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie,
How those babies Discus doing keep up the feeding and the waterchange.
I had another appointment that day that you and Candy came over but maybe
next time we can go do a Discus visting to some of the local breeders,
maybe with the Bay Area Discus group. We can visit Herman Chan,
Wong, Lee, Hung, Ting, Dick Au, Al Yee, Seto, Fong and etc.

Regards,
Cliff


Cliff~

My babies are doing great! Cliff, they are afraid of nothing...they come right up to the front and top of the tank, it is very cool and I love them bunches! Thank You, again, Cliff~

That would be an awesome road trip to visit some of those people! But, I may need more tanks, ya think??? lol!


Merry Christmas Cliff!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_106.gif



Mike, you are welcome on any Discus Field Trip we may adventure on! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_15_17.gif

Marie~

[Dave C]

There's a lfs here in town that used to buy lots of my Discus. His goal was to breed them himself & sell the fry. I knew that it was only a matter of time before he would stop buying from me. So the last time he took my last 40 fish I stopped buying more Discus and got out for a year. He had a ton of tanks dedicated to Discus away from the main store. He had about 50 of my adult Discus. These tanks were a mess. The glass had never been cleaned from what I could tell, including the tank bottoms. The water was changed but not nearly at the crazy levels that many do on the forums (had to put that in, ha). He is too cheap to feed very often or very high quality food so it's mostly flake or pellet. When you look at his tanks of fry, since he has had nothing but success breeding these fish in straight tap water, you can barely see them. The glass is too dirty and the water too cloudy. So he will wipe the glass with a magnetic scraper and the fish come to the front where they can be seen. Their growth is less then what I've experienced with my fry but they are round and in 6-8 months they get to 3-4" in size. He's got tons and tons of adolescents in his store now, one year later. And lots of fry coming up. His tanks are just awful to look at and it's a leap of faith to buy the fish, but they're round and keep going. If you're ever in Winnipeg the store is called Fish Gallery. He keeps telling me he's going to put in a drip overflow system to speed w/c but that's been a couple of years now. My wife laughs and keeps saying she told me I kept my tanks too clean. It seems there are many ways to get to the end and many work. And this is in a LFS... breeding Discus for resale. Who would have thunk it?

[Kindredspirit]

"I knew that it was only a matter of time before he would stop buying from me. "



Hey Dave~

I so agree....I have seen lately unbelieveable tank conditions and yet they thrive! What gave you that feeling he was not going to buy from you anymore, sooner or later? And why?



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_100.gif

[Timbo]

I have seen lately unbelieveable tank conditions and yet they thrive!
Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_100.gif

interesting topic and stories! Marie, tell us what you saw please.

[Dave C]

I knew he would stop buying because fish that I had previously sold to him were starting to breed. And he had bought so many adults or near-adults and was not killing or selling them that he couldn't handle any more. I was trying to sell mainly to hobbyists, not LFS, but he was a great resource for taking large amounts of fish. The price was less but the simplicity of the sale made up for that.

[Kindredspirit]

Guys,

Here is our policy directly from the site rules:


This site has a zero tolerance policy for anything posted in a negative fashion about other members, fish breeders, wholesalers, or suppliers. We feel this is the fairest policy possible to all parties. Positive comments are welcome. This is called a Positive Feedback System. If someone asks for experiences with certain breeders and you have had a negative one, simply state that it was a negative experience and ask those interested to e-mail you for details. In no way is this site to be involved in buyer/seller disputes. Posts of this nature will be removed at the discretion of the owners or their agents


Please edit your posts to comply with this policy. I edited one of Candy's already, but since I am sure no one intended anything truly negative by this posting, I'll let you guys moderate yourselves!

Thanks!

John

PS. I think a thread praising good breeders, LFS etc. is great and helps others find good fish! Just please comply with the non-negativity aspect of the rules!!


Just thought I would throw this back up in case any one blows it...lol! ....Soooooooooo....let us moderate ourselves yes?? I don't think that anyone has gotten to negative...it can be easy to do, however~

Can we get negative if we do not say what business it is??? I wonder....some may guess....And that can not be a good thing~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_6_22.gif

[Timbo]

hi Marie! just leave out the store or breeder name if you want, but its really not speaking bad of them if their system works is it? :)


I have seen lately unbelieveable tank conditions and yet they thrive!
Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_100.gif

[Kindredspirit]

I need to say more~


The post that John edited of Candy's , well, I suggested to her that over at another site, there is a section for an experience such as hers. I knew that this had been weighing heavily on her for so long... It was my idea. I took her there. I helped her. I led her into a lion's den that I never saw coming, guys.


She posted her experience. And it took a nasty turn. It was less than a welcoming experience for her. She was hurt terribly and I felt so very responsible. It was not a good day for either of us. But she is okay~make no mistake about that~

It use to be different there. I wanted to say that no matter how you feel about the rules here, at Simply....Ryan and Al have them for a reason. There is a method to their maddess, I am sure~

It is a good policy to follow. This I know now, from the bottom of my heart~



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_14.gif

[Dave C]

I read it. Had Candy posted on DaaH within the same rules that apply on Simply her experience would have been different. DaaH hasn't changed, at least not in that regard. It has always been a free-for-all where anyone can say what they want with minimal, if any, editing. As a matter of a fact it used to be a lot more volatile, especially if you go back to pre-DaaH, aka DIP days. Why did you suggest she post over there?

[Timbo]

Marie, you arent saying anything negative when the fish thrive. i'm confused as to why you wont tell us.

[April]

not to worry marie. this post is a great post now..with people saying thier first hand experiences..and may be not clean tanks..but great results. interesting to see how others do it. people on forums are like how dogs go after an injured dog. instant dogpile..and tons of watchers..and posters when it turns for the worst. hence simplys guidelines.
yes..the good or rather bad ole days on dip. ..us who were there..will never forget. it was discus in profile..but in reality it was discus keepers in profile. ill tell you a bit of a story..and it still baffles me. i keep losing fry at the 8 week mark as well as alot or most in vancouver. my theory is its bacterial. they do the big spiral. ive kept my ph even..and i clean constantly..i managed to keep them going last time with a bit of acriflavin and constant water running in and outand alot of aragonite the new water ran over. hardened it up alot. but..two times now..i have given the fragile aged fry to one guy here..and he just takes used water out of his main adult discus tank..well seasoned water..but also well used...and..no new water. he manages to grow them out. no new water added. old dirty water. maybe its got somethin to do with how herman and that guy in winnepeg manage.?
also ive heard some people i believe even roy in singapore leave the alagae on the sides of the tank..and the babies graze..and..it keeps the nitrates down?

[Kindredspirit]

Marie, you arent saying anything negative when the fish thrive. i'm confused as to why you wont tell us.


Well, Timbo.....do not be confused! Make me laugh aren't ya good at that? It was some lfs store, Tim...and their tanks were like thick slime, really thick water it seemed like...and algae every where. But, from what we could understand, he didnt speak very good english, they never get sick and he had some kind of drip system i would never understand in a million years...the discus were huge! I remember him saying he didnt believe in changing water in the tanks very often...

He must have had some kind of secret that he never shares...SOMETHING he added or did ....


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_96.gif

[Timbo]

thanks Marie :)

i am always curious as to alternative methodologies that work in this hobby, outside of the mainstream, as are many others on simply im sure

most ppl here do it relatively the same way and its very interesting to hear of alternative methods that are succesfull. its hard to argue with a nice tank of grown out discus, no matter how it was achieved

[Kindredspirit]

not to worry marie. this post is a great post now..with people saying thier first hand experiences..and may be not clean tanks..but great results. interesting to see how others do it. people on forums are like how dogs go after an injured dog. instant dogpile..and tons of watchers..and posters when it turns for the worst. hence simplys guidelines.
yes..


Thanks, April, I needed that~





ps. I just finished blow drying our Newfies and Huskey! and....clipping them...took me 3hours, April! They got baths yesterday... I should have made it to your place, woman and checked out that nice new room!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_7_5.gif

[Kindredspirit]

thanks Marie :)

i am always curious as to alternative methodologies that work in this hobby, outside of the mainstream, as are many others on simply im sure

most ppl here do it relatively the same way and its very interesting to hear of alternative methods that are succesfull. its hard to argue with a nice tank of grown out discus, no matter how it was achieved


Your welcome! ( Even tho ya didn't make me laugh )http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_4_108.gif




Marie~

[April]

you need to buy a rake..marie. and rake ..then use a large universal slicker brush. bet i could find more hair..in lots of hidden spots you didnt find. lol.
well..if you ever have the urge to see the great white north..and vancouver..just head north. : ) well not so great white north..but the snow is on the mountains.

[Kindredspirit]

April~
oh no! There are no hidden spots! I got under the arms, behind the ears..I used the rake for years April and it took hours! Now, I bath, then I blow dry them with this powerful dog dryer, that I am sure you have....then I use my clippers...they look great! I was annoyed tho with my clippers cuz the black lenght attachments wouldnt work, April...with the blades...so i just used the blade...never happened before...im thinkin, 'call April, call April!" lol!


Shall we turn this into a dog grooming, Newfie, Site??



Sorri Mike!! Back to Discus!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_117.gif




Do you see a lot of Newfoundlands in Canada??

[Kenny's Discus]

Mike - thanks for asking about my family and sure next weekend Fairy Lake that is. And yes your fish are in a 29g waiting for your pickup anytime.

Take care
Kenny

[Kindredspirit]

Kenny~

I went to high school in Daly City! You are in Daly City...hmm....road trip....hellooooooooooo, Mikey??http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_7_22.gif

Marie~

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - you're welcome to come by anytime. It'll be my pleasure.

Regards,
Kenny

[White Worm]

Hey there marie,,,

Yep!!! A field trip to daly city/SF for discus is always a good day. Just a final report, I ended up losing the whole tank of juvies (16) I tried moving them to QT tank but I think the damage was already done. #1 lesson learned is to do smaller wc's if from the tap and age/condition water before use. As soon as I get my tank back up and running, I will be visiting my good friend kenny.

[Kindredspirit]

Mike~


I am so sorry to hear such news, really tho....all 16? *******, babe! I am so glad you posted that again, about wc and doing too much at once..I was thinking about that the other day and I couldnt remember where i had read it! So...do not change too much at once....and splash the water some when adding to release the gases..? how much water did you change?


Is that only what happened to you? Well, a road trip is definitely in order then....


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_16_16.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Marie - you're welcome to come by anytime. It'll be my pleasure.

Regards,
Kenny


aww...you are very sweet, Kenny! Perhaps I shall go with Mike someday~



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_16_4.gif

[Greg Richardson]

Marie. Just remember if water aged u can do as large a change as u want without worry of gasses.

[White Worm]

Thats correct, I was using straight from the tap. I did about 80-85% without conditioning first or ageing. With tap, only 30-35% with no problems. I will be storing and pre conditioning my water now.. I have a rubbermade garbage can in the garage next to my holding container for the house water softener which will now hold my WC water for the tanks. I should have my 75 back up and running by next weekend all painted and ready for new discus.

[Kindredspirit]

Marie. Just remember if water aged u can do as large a change as u want without worry of gasses.



Greg~

I did not remember that. Not at all. Thank you! I do use straight tap, per Cary, I remember he said that is best, but I do add Prime. I have three tanks, how could I possibly age that much water? Don't answer that, cuz i so do not wanna know, Greg!

Sooooooo, since I do not age my water, do you think changing 50% daily is too much? I have always done that and have no problems....at least with the fish per se'...now cloudiness, broken heaters, worms dropping on me...but not with the fish!

Do most age their water? I am sure they do~



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_33_7.gif

[goheel]

I do my WC straight from tap also, but I have well water so I don't add any conditioner. I only do about 20% daily thought, and so far my fish are fine.

[Alight]

Many here, and at other fish sites do use tap water directly from the tap. Some have been doing it for some time with no problems--even very large changes (more than50%) with no problems.

However, at this site and others, many have also experience problems with large water changes killing fish suddenly.

Also, some of those who use tap water routinely have also experience big die offs immediately after even relatively small changes (30%) on rare occasions, only to discover that their water company was "cleaning the lines" with extra chlorine or chloramine, or that a line break forced them to do similar "cleaning".

Should you age your water? It all depends on how paranoid you are, and how much you have to lose I guess.

If you have an absolutely dependable tap water source (such as your own well, the you know doesn't have bad parameters (low O2, high CO2) or a very dependable city supply, go for it. If not--well....Rubber made containers (even 96 gallon ones) and a $6 air pump, and a $20 heater aren't very expensive compared with the value of a tank full of adult Discus.

[Alight]

Marie, just got a clue on your water cloudiness from another thread. You said you were feeding your filter flake food for the week that you didn't have fish in it. This may have kept your filter "fed" but may also have built up in your sponges. Did you thoroughly clean your sponges before you put fish back in your tank? I mean take the sponges out, put them in a bucket of dechlorinated water, and really squeeze them like a thorough had washing? You may find they have gotten fouled a bit by the flake food (makes a slimy gunk that can plug the sponges) and when it breaks down can produce a bacteria bloom that can cloud your tank.

[hexed]

Marie,
If the black attachments (snap on combs) won't go through the coat then you have lots of undercoat still on your dogs. All that undercoat needs to come out. When you blow the coat dry do you see skin? If not that's all undercoat. Dogs do not sweat so they regulate thier temps by panting. If the skin is covered with undercoat, it cannot breathe and they will not be able to regulate the body temp whether it's hot of cold. Your dryer might not be strong enough. I tell my customers to purchase a large wet/dry vacuum (shop vac) and put the hose on the blower side and attach the creavice tool to the end of the hose. The hair should fly out of the coat. Always use a disposible face mask because the dog dander will give you a migraine after your done. When your are finished just vacuum up all the hair.
Frank -- been grooming dogs for 19 years --OH MY!

[Kindredspirit]

If you have an absolutely dependable tap water source (such as your own well, the you know doesn't have bad parameters (low O2, high CO2) or a very dependable city supply, go for it. If not--well....Rubber made containers (even 96 gallon ones) and a $6 air pump, and a $20 heater aren't very expensive compared with the value of a tank full of adult Discus.




That is very true...and if that happens to me, I will, no doubt, come crying back here.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_16_8.gif...oh dear....



Marie~

[Kindredspirit]

Marie, just got a clue on your water cloudiness from another thread. You said you were feeding your filter flake food for the week that you didn't have fish in it. This may have kept your filter "fed" but may also have built up in your sponges. Did you thoroughly clean your sponges before you put fish back in your tank? I mean take the sponges out, put them in a bucket of dechlorinated water, and really squeeze them like a thorough had washing? You may find they have gotten fouled a bit by the flake food (makes a slimy gunk that can plug the sponges) and when it breaks down can produce a bacteria bloom that can cloud your tank.


Mikey....still hi-jacking here...love ya tho!! when you see a thread of mine, feel free to hi-jack it anytime!


Al~ I did not rinse out my filters not at all, cuz, well, *******, I have no idea why I didnt I suppose I didnt want to uncycle it? ...the sponges came from another filter that was on this tank...you must be confused, babe... hell I am and its my tanks! I only fed it like a few times, Al, with flakes....Sooooooooo, should i take the sponges out now? Cliff's sponge is in there too? be specifc and talk simple....please? lol! I just remember this happening to this same tank when my other ones that are in the 55gal now, and nothing would help...It went on for days, Al...So someone said to get a HOT Magnum and it cleared right up!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_9.gif

[Alight]

Could be the same problem then! It might not have been the flake food at all. Maybe you're on to something. Thoroughly rinse out all of your sponge filters in all tanks, as I suggested. No reason not to give them all a great squeezing fest. (As Carol put it, the bacteria in your sponge filters is like bacteria in your dish rag--simply rinsing it out well will not kill the bacteria--very hot water, or chlorine can). The only time to be careful with rinsing of sponges is soon after cycling new sponges. Once the bacteria are well established, squeeze away!

You may find that they are full of black grunge down deep. This may have been your problem with cloudiness the first time around, too.

I give all my sponges a thorough cleaning at least every other water change.

[Kindredspirit]

Al~ rinse out all the sponges in the 30gal, right? In tank water? I already did the other tanks...So...I wonder if that is it? It is okay to rinse all of the sponges at once?


I will do that, Sir! lol...and report back!



Thank you, Al~

Marie!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_10.gif

[White Worm]

Its so funny how many directions one thread can end up going. No problem Marie,, I hijack all the time. Things just come up that need answers. I think this thread has gone in a positive direction which is within simply guidlines and it is much better that way. I surely wouldnt want to be on here if there was constant bashing of each other.

Marie,,, I dont know if you have done it but test your tap water for chlorine and chloramines that way you can be sure. I havent tested mine yet but I believe that is the root of my problems. Especially with such a loss and quick and no cure. With small changes, its not a problem. All my adults are fine and dont show any problems. They eat like horses and come right to the top for food just like my 16 juvies did :( . They were some great fish and were going to be some good looking adults. Kenny has so graciously volunteered some replacements for me. I know what went wrong and it wont happen again. One large garbage can in the garage should be plenty of water for changes. I think 50% daily is overkill myself JMO.
I will be testing my water soon to find out exactly what I am dealing with. I would hate for anything to happen to my adults.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Mike~

Thanks for understanding when I butted in! I think this was such a good thread, babe...really informative and positive~I am glad to see you are okay. I am very sorry you had to go thru this, M~


Mike, tell me...IF, I decided to age my tap water...I have absolutely no idea where to begin...Soooooooo....you have to have a big enuff storage container for all the tanks you have, correct? I need one for 95 gal? hmm....that sounds familiar, I think someone recently told me that... I fill it up and add a heater, and air stone, do I Prime it then or when it goes into the tank? Or do I not Prime it anymore? I so can not believe I am even going here...

And where to put such a container?? Once filled you can not move it and it has to be reached by the Phyton, right? And...what if for some reason you spill some or waste it, and you are short water for that wc?
Does that make sense? The water has to age at least 24 hours, or 12?

I have tested my tap water many times and it is pretty close to, if not exactly as all my tanks~ That is a good thing, yes?

So why am I considering this again? Cuz........in case they mess with my water on a dime and it affects my fish?

*******... I do not wanna do this I do not! NO NO NO.....http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_20.gif


Does it have to have a lid? What size heater? Airstone? And the water has to match the tanks? But my tanks are all a lil different~


This is so not KISS ...ing it! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_2_13.gif

Your friend, Kenny sounds very nice, Mike~


Marie~

[Timbo]

no more coffee for Marie

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - yes you store your water from the tap overnight, add airstone & heater and add Prime. IMO it's important to add Prime(or any other dechlorinator) into the "new" water b4 filling it to the tank. Remember, chloramine sometimes takes only mins to kill and it's usually irreversible.

Quote:
"Does it have to have a lid? What size heater? Airstone? And the water has to match the tanks? But my tanks are all a lil different~"

-It's not necessary to have a lid but I have one on to prevent possible debris.
-For a 30g rubbermaid I'll say use a 100w heater. It really depends on how big the container is (do your math :-0)
-Yes try to match the "stored" water temp to the other tanks' temp. A couple degrees difference in temp shouldn't be a problem. Try to find a common denominator as to what temp you should set the "stored" water at if your current tanks have different temperature.

TC, Kenny.

[hexed]

Marie,
You do not have to age your water. If you do not have any problems with your discus then why try to fix it. When you fill your tank let the water splash back in. I tried the aged water and there was no difference for my discus. Just like yours, my PH from tap to tank are very close. The only thing I do is put the water in a rubbermaid trash can and add Novaqua then pump it into the tanks. The empty trash can then goes into the spare room :)
Be sure to UNPLUG your heaters when doing a water change.

[Kindredspirit]

Frank, why do you put your water in a storage tank first if you are not aging it?


That is good to hear. I do not think I can take on one more thing in my life at this time~

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - that use of a container, even if you don't intent to age your water, is to provide a place where you can add dechlorinator to b4 filling the "new" water into your main tank.

Kenny

[White Worm]

Marie,,, I finally tested my water here and there is chlorine,,, about 0.2-0.3 which I believe is kinda bad. No,, you dont HAVE to store and age but definately condition prior to adding. I will probably do what hexed does. Fill garbage can, add conditioner (I bought the prime) Aerate a little while conditioning and add my buffer also to keep my tanks at 6.5 or so. Then pump into tank.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Mike~

I only have a test kit for pH, High Range pH (***?) , Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate....

Sooooooooo, Chlorine in there anywheres??


Did ya see I added you in 'Tell Us About Yourself'....


No One can miss that one!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1/1_4_45.gif

[White Worm]

Marie,,,, You are not going to want to hear this but there is another test kit out there that measures KH, GH, PH, C02, CI2, etc. I broke down and purchased it from petco because I was very curious about the complete parameters of my water from the tap. The kit cost me 45$ but you can get it online for around 30$ but then you have to pay shipping (still probably cheaper). As you can understand from my recent loss, I wanted to see what could have been the ultimate downfall of my 16 youngins :( . Yes, I saw you added me in "tell us about yourself" thanks, I was feeling a little left out.
Side Note,,,,I wouldnt change your name on here because everyone recognizes kindredspirit now. Once you have used it, cant go back. Kinda like a famous actor who gets married but they still keep their last name because it is well known.
If you change it though,,,,, I think the new one should be simply smiley. Mike

[Alight]

"Al~ rinse out all the sponges in the 30gal, right? In tank water? I already did the other tanks...So...I wonder if that is it? It is okay to rinse all of the sponges at once?"

Yes, OK to rinse all sponges at once. Should make a difference in the cloudiness if the sponges are gunked up.

You can use tank water to squeeze them in, or just use tap water that you have dechlorinated. I'd to the tap water thing in a bucket, so you can have enough water to squeeze them out thoroughly with several rinses of fresh dechlorinated water. I do mine in a bucket in a sink with tap water, but I have well water, so no chlorine.

This cleaning of sponges should become part of your water change routine.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Al~


Okay...I did it! But I put a lil tank water in the bucket during wc and squeeze them out that way....

My tank is much clearer today, Al! I always squeeze out the intake and hydro sponges that are in the tank , every wc, but you want me to do all the sponges in my filters, in the canisters....

at every other wc....? right?


Okay then...Thank you!! I always look for you when I start a new thread for some reason!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_74v.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Marie,,,, You are not going to want to hear this but there is another test kit out there that measures KH, GH, PH, C02, CI2, etc. I broke down and purchased it from petco because I was very curious about the complete parameters of my water from the tap. The kit cost me 45$ but you can get it online for around 30$ but then you have to pay shipping (still probably cheaper). As you can understand from my recent loss, I wanted to see what could have been the ultimate downfall of my 16 youngins :( . Yes, I saw you added me in "tell us about yourself" thanks, I was feeling a little left out.
Side Note,,,,I wouldnt change your name on here because everyone recognizes kindredspirit now. Once you have used it, cant go back. Kinda like a famous actor who gets married but they still keep their last name because it is well known.
If you change it though,,,,, I think the new one should be simply smiley. Mike


Oh *******! The kit I have now is for over "700 tests" ...lol and cost me $45 too! Can't i just buy one for chlorine only, Mike?

I am so sorri you were feeling left out!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_20_5.gifI thought that I prolly should not have listed people to begin with as I am sure i left out others....I was typing fast cuz i had to leave....lol!

I decided not to change my name....You are funny!!


Marie~

[RyanH]

Hey Marie,

If you have city water, it is a safe bet that your water is being treated with either chlorine or chloramine. You don't even need to bother testing for it because it's there. :)

Have you checked your pH after 24 hours of agitation? It may be stable and can be added to your tank immediately. If not, your really going to want to age it first... especially if it's dropping on you.

As far as cleaning sponges goes, I don't like to mess with my sponges all the time so I keep my airflow relatively low. This way they don't get clogged with crap and therefore, don't need to be cleaned as often... only once a month or so. If I'm seeding a new sponge I don't touch it for 6 weeks. IMO, this will allow a stronger colony of bacteria to get established without interference. I prefer to rely on water changes for mechanical filtration and not my sponges.

-Ryan


Hey Mike~

I only have a test kit for pH, High Range pH (***?) , Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate....

Sooooooooo, Chlorine in there anywheres??


Did ya see I added you in 'Tell Us About Yourself'....


No One can miss that one!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1/1_4_45.gif

[White Worm]

Marie,,, You dont HAVEto check these other things but I wanted to know the levels I was dealing with and also wanted to check my tanks and make sure there was none in them. Adults are expensive and I didnt want to take any chances. Since I am really getting into this hobby, I want to gather as much knowledge as I can and since these creatures require very particular water, why not start there? I'm sure you can purchase just the single test for chlorine somewhere. I just wanted to be well versed on water chemistry because as soon as you have a problem, everyone wants to know all those questions, right? Ph, KH, GH, Nites, Nates, Ammo, etc, blah, blah, etc. If things are working for you, stick with it. Just be aware of large wc's from the tap and make sure you add the conditioner to the tank before the new water and only what you are removing. I usually 2x dose the conditioner (Prime) to be on the safe side.

[hexed]

Marie,
I put the water in the trash can for two reasons. One is to mix the water with Novaqua to remove chlorine and adjust the temp to be close to my tank's temp as possible and the other is because I cannot use the python hose, my faucets do not have threading to connect the hose to. See if I place my tap water in a glass and add air overnite my ph is 6.8 and the ph from the straight tap is 7.0 so I do not have to age my water. Now lets say the water from tap is 7.8 and after it sits with an airstone over nite is 6.8, you would need to age your water. Hope you understand what I am saying ;)
I too have air valves on the air hoses to my sponges and also do not have them completely opened, but I also have square air stones on each end of the tank without valves which give plenty of air to the tanks. I rinse my sponges once a week. I squeeze them in the used tank water that I removed from the tank then give them a quick rinse under the faucet.
If you have city water there is chlorine in it. Even if I was able to use a python hose I would still put the water in a trash can to mix in the Novaqua because I would not take the chance with my discus. I know that when I pump the water back into the tanks it is chlorine free! ;)
Frank

[Alight]

Marie, you can buy some test strips to test for chloramine and chlorine. Doesn't have to be accurate, you just want to know if they are there or not. If you are on city water, it's safe to assume you have at least chlorine, and most places are using chloramine these days. In fact, if you test your city water and you don't find any, I'd still treat for them, because it's likely your city does put these in your water, but they may have been "used up" oxidizing contaminants on their way to your house, and that they could show up in the future and kill your fish when they do.

As Ryan suggested, I also don't thoroughly clean new sponges, until they've completely cycled for some time. Not sure if it's 6 weeks, but it sounds like a good number. As to how often, you'll have to determine that yourself by cleaning them at various intervals, and seeing how much gunk you get out. If you're not getting much out, you can go longer between cleaning.

You may find that your HOB filter sponges may need more or less cleaning than your intake sponges--it all depends on how much stuff it getting past your intake sponges. I use real sponge filters (not prefilters) on the intakes to my HOB filters, so not much gets past them into the filter sponges. I can clean these sponges every several months, and not much is in them. But this depends on the food I'm feeding. I noticed that Formula 1, for example, gunks them up much more than Tetra Bits, Blood Worms, or Mysis Shrimp.

Same goes for the sponge filters. Mine get gunked up pretty fast in my fry tanks, but very slowly in my adult tanks.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Marie,

If you have city water, it is a safe bet that your water is being treated with either chlorine or chloramine. You don't even need to bother testing for it because it's there. :)

Have you checked your pH after 24 hours of agitation? It may be stable and can be added to your tank immediately. If not, your really going to want to age it first... especially if it's dropping on you.

As far as cleaning sponges goes, I don't like to mess with my sponges all the time so I keep my airflow relatively low. This way they don't get clogged with crap and therefore, don't need to be cleaned as often... only once a month or so. If I'm seeding a new sponge I don't touch it for 6 weeks. IMO, this will allow a stronger colony of bacteria to get established without interference. I prefer to rely on water changes for mechanical filtration and not my sponges.

-Ryan


Ryan~ lets recap, shall we? LOL...I am blonde, remember? I use straight tap water. 'you rely on mechanical filtration and not my sponges', could you untangle that statement for me?? lol! (JM, Col, go away!) So, in all probability, my water does have chlorine? Hence, the reason I add Prime, right? or No?


Mike~ Thanks so much for always being around for me! I am sure you know what you are doing. Adult discus can be costly, I agree...But sometimes I think I borrow trouble and try to fix what is yet not even cracked, much less broken! You double dose Prime? I was wondering if you can use too much of that shyt! Can you?


Frank! My Python came with this little screwy bronze adapter whatcamacallit to screw onto the faucet so people like me can attach the Python! But I am sure you knew that. Okay... what you are saying is that you can go up in Ph, but you shouldnt go down, I think i read once or someone told me that you can add your fish to a tank that has the same or higher Ph, but so as long as it isnt lower than yours? do i have that right? Why is that? I rinse my sponges in removed tank water as well, but you then rinse under the faucet? How come? I will do that as well~It helps, i have decided if I can understand why I do what I am doing, I might be able to remember it all easier! The Prime removes the chlorine, right? I have always added the Prime right to the tank water next to the water going in , away from the fish...i add it right away and stir.....hmm....


Hey Al~ You guys are all so awesome, really! I would be so lost if people didnt come here to help me! Should I buy something to test my Chlorine? Okay Al....HOB , and that is??? I always rinse my intake sponges with every wc...Do you test for everything?



Thanks everyone! I am sure needy, huh??? dont answer that! People probably think.. "omg, there is Marie again.." http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_12v.gif ( but I am not really shy, tho)



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_12_133.gif

[JeffreyRichard]

So I started on Page 1 and skipped directly to the last page ... what happened to the discussion of Best Stores?

My $.02 ... in Rhode Island, Aqualife (Wickendon Street, Providence) ... a small shop owned by an ULTRA experienced keeper and breeder of fish. He currently has some VERY nice Leopards and Marlboros in stock ... knows what he's doing ...

Jeff

[White Worm]

Marie,,,, You wont hurt anything with double dose of prime. I think the bottle even says 5x dose would not kill. Just advice. If you check for chlorine and there is none, then dont worry about it. The amount is never perfect anyway, it says to use a capful. Is your capful exactly the same as my capful? HHHMMMMM? 2X isnt neccessary but i do it just to be safe and so do others that I know (not everybody)
Not sure I quite know what I am doing yet but i just use alot of good advice from simply and people that have been doing this longer and have had success. Yes, prime rids your water of chlorine, chloramines and adds other good stuff that adds to the health of discus (hows that for a scientific explanation? LOL)
As far as adding right when you put water in,,, I NOW add it to the new water before I put it in the tank. I dont know how fast prime works but it sounds like a little chlorine would get in the tank and then the prime would work (dont quite know) I'm just a little more careful these days (I'm sure you can understand)

Jeff,,,, We were instructed not to discuss bad and good by admin. This thread has just ended up being good old fashion discus fun.

[Kindredspirit]

Jeff,,,, We were instructed not to discuss bad and good by admin. This thread has just ended up being good old fashion discus fun.



We can say good things, Mike, yes? Did I miss something? I am sorry your thread was hi-jacked so often, babe....

Mike, my cap is the same as your cap....lol!! Thanks so much for all your help! and i can totally understand where you are coming from~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_13.gif