What causes white pooh?

[justafishguy]

Has anyone found the cause of white pooh? I know you treat with metro and raise the temp. One of my fish developed the wht pooh and the only thing I can think of is that I recently fed some live blackworms.

Is there any safe way to raise discus without putting them at risk of these sicknesses? Like only feeding frozen or flake food? Will that help?

Thanks

[RyanH]

Two things can cause it that I'm aware of. First, it is a symptom of large numbers of intestinal flagellates like hexamita.

It is also my understanding that certain worms and parasites can cause the fish to shed the lining of their intestinal wall causing white feces as well.

hth
-Ryan

[justafishguy]

Thanks a lot Ryan for the info!

For the last 8 months I have been trying to figure out what these little white worm things are that show up in my tank during wc. They appear to come when I turn the main pump back on...so they are attatched inside of my return lines or on the bioballs in my filter. They are very small, maybe 1/8" long and very thin transparent wiggly worms that seem to wiggle around the surface of the water. Then after the wc they are all gone.

I dont know what these are? But could they be any type of intestinal thing...I would guess not, because they are living outside of the "womb". lol Prob. just bad housekeeping.

[RyanH]

They are harmless.

Just clean out your filters, wipe down the glass, and change some more water and they should go away. They're eating and multiplying in the leftovers and waste in your tank.

hth:)
-Ryan

[Andrew Soh]

Hi,

The worms are nematodes and they are generally harmless to discus and definitely not the cause of white pooh.

White pooh is excessive secretion of mucus from the intestinal mucus membrane caused by parasite infestation, infection and damage. It is 'similar' to our discharge of soft wet stool.

It may be caused by flagellates, bacteria or other parasites.....most believe is flagellates. Anyway, using metronidazole helps in many ways as it is not only againts certain flagellates, it has anti-bacteria properties too.

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[Andrew Soh]

Hi everyone,

Forgot to greet you guys...

:balloon: A blessed Christmas :balloon: and :balloon: a Good Year Ahead!!!!:balloon:

Andrew:angel:

[justafishguy]

Just wanted to update that my fish is ok now. I did one treatment with metro and kept the temps at 86. White poo is gone and it is eating again. I am doing one more treatment of metro just for fun now. Hopefully it is all over. Thanks for your comments>

[pcsb23]

metro works best when temp is taised to 92f or more.
Paul.

[justafishguy]

I have tried to raise my temps but the heaters wont do it. They are set at 89 but only have the temp at 86...so thats all i can do

[Andrew Soh]

It is O.k.

There is no necessity to raise temperature that high.

More improtantly, don't treat discus for fun.

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[justafishguy]

I dont like to treat them for fun...it costs even more money that I dont have. I just wanted to make sure it worked. Plus, everyone says to repeat treatment at least once after wc, am I not correct?

[Andrew Soh]

Hello my friend,


White poo is gone and it is eating again. I am doing one more treatment of metro just for fun now.

you said it yourself;) . Sorry if I have misunderstood your statement.

To my opinion, it is not a good practice to do another treatment after recovery.....

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[justafishguy]

Thanks for your input Andrew. What type of experiences have you had in the past with second treatments?

[Elcid]

Hi Andrew:

Can you also tell us the life cycle of a flagellate and whether the metronidazole treatment kills both the egg and the flagellate in one treatment?

Wishing you and your family a happy new year.

thanks,
Sandeep

[Timbo]

hey Elcid!

to my admitted limited understanding;) metronidazole doesnt really kill them all off. i thought it weakens them to the point where the fishes immune system can take over, thats why its not 100%...and yeah, most folks say repeated doseages 2/3 times day with wc (or were you guys just testing andrew?) ;););) english is a funny language sometimes..

happy new year to you guys as well
-Timothy

[satty]

Metronidazle or Metrogyl or Flagyl Enters the cell of either the Protozoan ie your flagellates or Anerobic bacteria and it disrupts the DNA whereby the cell-falgellate or bacteria gets killed and ultimately it is the immune cells which clear of the debris
So a Antibiotic enters a cell of organism and either stops the cell wall synthesis/disrupts the DNA/or stops Protein synthesis processes which are essential to the survival of a cell and thereby killing the organism, this doesnt happen to our normal cell because all antibitics contain receptors specific only for the organism.

[Timbo]

hehe from mayoclinic.com

"Metronidazole (Flagyl). Once the most commonly used antibiotic for Crohn's disease, metronidazole can sometimes cause serious side effects, including numbness and tingling in your hands and feet and, occasionally, muscle pain or weakness. If these effects occur, stop the medication and call your doctor. Other side effects include nausea, a metallic taste in your mouth, headache, dizziness and loss of appetite. Avoid alcoholic beverages while taking this medication because a severe reaction may result"

the last line alone would keep me from poppin a couple

[justafishguy]

hehe from mayoclinic.com

"Metronidazole (Flagyl). Once the most commonly used antibiotic for Crohn's disease, metronidazole can sometimes cause serious side effects, including numbness and tingling in your hands and feet and, occasionally, muscle pain or weakness. If these effects occur, stop the medication and call your doctor. Other side effects include nausea, a metallic taste in your mouth, headache, dizziness and loss of appetite. Avoid alcoholic beverages while taking this medication because a severe reaction may result"

the last line alone would keep me from poppin a couple

I think my fish had at least two of those side effects, I wouldn't let him drink though so I have no clue how severe the reaction may be?

[satty]

The most common side effect I have seen is metallic taste in the mouth and nausea,tingling sensation is very rare havent seen any person complaining abt that till now excuse me guys I am talking about humans and for fish I am sorry my fishes dont speak hehehehehe

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Sandeep,

A cyst is produced by some species of the flagellate family, not all....and is also very hard to identify which sub-specie it belongs to in clinical specimens than the trophozoite.

Therefore in some species, treatment with metronidazole will work while not on cyst produced by certain sub-specie. There is nothing new with this information as it is a known fact that antibiotics and drug cannot destroy or 'kill' most cysts. Only certain chemicals like formalin and chlorine in high dose can.

I don't know the life cycle....as all flagellate species proliferate by longitudinal division (binary fission)...and certain species, due to survival instinct, produce the so-called 'Winter egg'.....just like the monia and daphia. When water condition threatens their survival, they produce a single egg (cyst)....and will hatch when good water quality returns.

I hope that answers your question.....

Maybe I am ignorant...anyone knows flagellate's live cycle?

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[Elcid]

Hi Andrew:

After reading your book and knowing all the research work you are doing in aquaculture I was serious about my question. But serious does not mean disrespectful :) I type these things quickly and without much procrastination or spell check sometimes my thoughts all come out in one sentence....Sorry about that :) Hope you will get used to it.

I recently completed a treatment with dimetranidazole and succesfully thanks to advises in the past from many on this forum. So when you said that a repeat treatment is not necessary if the fish seem to recovered I need to understand why? As most ppl do recommend repeat treatment? Naturally, I was thinking that there are flagellates that will be born in a few days that I again need to take care off.

If anyone knows you do so please elaborate :) Do you think if the fish have begun eating that they have already passed the ill bodies out of their system and additional dosing isn't going to help?

thanks,
Sandeep

[pcsb23]

Apologies for chiming in but sometimes the practioners just want to be 'certain' that the threat is dealt with, hence repeat after a few days mantra. Metro was, to the best of my knowledge, originally developed for warm blooded animals (you and me basically!!), hence the preference of using it at higher temps. This does not mean it won't or can't work at lower temps, just that it's optimum temp is 98f (I know, a lot higher than we keep fish at, just stating how it was originally 'meant' to be used!!). I am not a microbiologist, nor do I know the life cycle of the flagellates. However I believ if you have to embark on a med treatment, then a plan has to be in place. The most important part of which IMO is observation. Personally I am reluctant to use meds, when I do I use them to 'hit hard'. The idea being to give the fish a helping hand. For example it could be four days treatment, then good water management and feeding (little and often) and observation. If the fish shows signs of recovery and starts to feed the I would not retreat at this time. Good husbandry will beat most infections 9 times out of 10 IME. Hard work, maybe, but worth it.
Just my thoughts and views on it.
Paul.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Sandeep and Paul,

To my opinion and experience, it is tedious to eliminate all flagellates....

If that is really what you want to achieve...100% elimination and you have more than 30 discus,....you need to do 12 days treatment...done twice a month and repeated every month for six months both in water and in feed.

Flagellates or oodiniums exist in nature and they can co-exist with discus...just like bacteria....even aeromonas hydrophila (which are generally opportunistic bacteria, can be pathogenic and aggressive when certain condition triggers a change).

There is no live cycle for flagellates as mentioned in my previous post, they proliferate through binary fission.

If your treatment is effective and is done when 'winter egg' is not being produced, your chance of eliminating them 100% is possible and thus, a 12 day treatment should work. Unfortunately, some discus are too weak to fight and some lose appetite ...so the medicated food is not consumed properly....thus losing effectiveness. Therefore, the flagellates escape and survive.

On the lighter side, if your treatment is fairly effective and most part or percentage of the flagellates are eliminated and the discus are eating well, that should be acceptable. If your discus return to health, flagellates and bacteria will just co-exist inside the intestinal tract and will not do harm.

Poor maintainance and irregular feeding or a sudden uncontrolled increase in population of parasites in the intestine, irritate and damage the intestinal wall resulting in excessive secretion of the mucus lining. Also not forgetting, it could all because of other infection or poor water quality externally (like high ammonia level and etc) that cause stress and drop in immune efficiency...allowing these guys to take advantage of the discus weakened immune system.

Once I was so eager to eliminate 100% both bacteria and flagellates that I keep treating them for long period of 6 months and dissecting many to confirm the efficiency of my treatments........finally come to realise it was not necessary and a waste of time.

Try dissecting a normal healthy and eating discus....and you will find flagellates, bacteria and other organisms in the intestinal tract.

Therefore, good management and parasite population control (but not total elimination), is the way to go. And that is why one treatment or treatment till they recover is sufficient.

Take care,
Andrew

[pcsb23]

Andrew, I think we are on the same wavelength, from my limited understanding I belive it is virtuially impossible to eliminate these flagellates, indeeed many of the parasites/bacteria that threaten our fish. All we can do is offer the fish assistance when conditions have gone against them.

I believe, and it is only born out by personal experience (limited at that but...) once the fish are fending for themselves look after their environment and they will do the rest.

Paul.

[Andrew Soh]

You are absolutely right, Paul.

Just like us. The common flu virus can be anywhere and everywhere. It all depends on our balance diet, our immune system's defense capability and our daily management and management of stress that determine whether we will succumb to infection.

This is also true for bacteria. If our body is well maintained as to all the above, if one gets a cut or even go to through an operation, chances of getting infection is minimal.

Therefore, treatment is to reduce the population...and as you said...the follow up should be good management and improve general well-being.

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[Elcid]

Hi Andrew & Paul:

Thanks for your long explanations. I really have to think a lot on this one and worry too! I wish there were a better answer but I know coming from you it's accurate.

thanks,
Sandeep

[Timbo]

appreciate your input, andrew. thanks!

[Andrew Soh]

Welcome my friends,

Just doing my bit for our common love....the discus;)

Take care,
Andrew

[Timbo]

from another forum:re Naked Truth by Andrew Soh


Andrew SohNov 16 2005, 03:00 PM
That would be great

A forum of Naked discus people
i'm not wearing any pants if that counts. and careful what you ask for here...cage-rattler is just lookin for any excuse to get nekkid;)

i'm buying your book Andrew: good review (posted elsewhere) -


This newly arrived discus book by the expert extraordinaire Andrew Soh is a must collectible for the serious discus enthusiast. Reading this book is as good as tapping into the wealth of experience and knowledge that could only have come from a champion discus breeder. He has written a no-holds-barred book that will only enrich the discus-keeping skills of any discus breeder or hobbyist. This book has been widely praised and welcomed by the serious discus community. The book contents include:

1. selecting the best
2. culture tank system
3. breeding
4. artemia culture
5. sexing
6. grooming champion
7. discus genetics
8. import quarantine procedure
9. diseases and treatments
10. list of commonly used drugs and chemicals
11. frequently asked questions

........ and many incredible pictures with very useful diagrams!!

any chance of buying an autographed copy?

[Andrew Soh]

Hey,

Where did you get the review? I never read it before....let me know where, ya?

Of course...a autograph copy is not a problem. Just give me a PM. Not nice talking money in forum thread.

Thanks,
Andrew:angel:

[pcsb23]

Andrew, me too please!! I'll pm you now.
Paul

[Andrew Soh]

Thanks Paul.

I also want to know where that review is?? Vanity ya?...want to drown myself in flatteries.

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[Timbo]

I also want to know where that review is?? Vanity ya?

pm sent Andrew(its from a commercial seller of your book, who may have a vested interest in selling more books so i wont post it here)

Al should hit you up to be on our judges panel btw

[Andrew Soh]

Yes, you are right.

Anyway, thanks for the information.

Judge:confused: Hope so....;)

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[satty]

Hi Andrew et all I went through Animal encylopedia and found out that most of the Protozoan ie flagellates do not have life cycle to be precise except for Trypanasomes,and it’s the Metazoans like Nematodes Copepods that have life cycles to be worried of and even if there are life cycles I think the best way to tackle it is providing clean and pure water as frequent as possible to the diseased fish, in this you are diluting the eggs and removing the eggs and the other infective forms with frequent water changes,and as you rightly said we all live in a world of Organisms which are friendly when healthy and become our foe when diseased and to fight them boost the immunity and for that provide the right environment.

Paul regarding the Metro stuff one thing I want to point out is not only Metro,for that matter any Antibiotic is produced in view of hitting the Organism and theres nothing like the right temperature for the antibiotic to start its action,in humans be what the temperature Metro's goin to exert its action ofcourse in fever the core body temperature goes up coz thats a protective mechanism.
And theres no study till date on the Efficacy of Antibiotics added to water except for one which was done on Oxytetracycline so we all add Antibiotics to the water only in the desperate hope that our fishes should become allright
And I read in some Metazoan infections raising the temperature helps in the hatching of eggs,so any treatment we use should be done wisely and with a proper diagnosis.
References:
a.Laurousse Encyclopedia of animal life
For Metro
b.http://sprojects.mmi.mcgill.ca/cases/drugs/Metronidazol/CP_metronidazole_mono.htm
For Flagellate study
c.http://www.uoguelph.ca/~pwoo/woo.htm
For study on the efficacy of Antibiotic added to water
d.http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8667(2000)012%3C0246:TKOODI%3E2.0.CO%3B2
e.http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=444656&pageindex=1#page

And for those who are very much interested in reading about fish diseases and Fish medicines I recommend these books
1.Noga EJ: Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. Iowa State University Press, 367 pp., 2000.

2.Stoskopf MK: Fish Medicine. Saunders Co., Philadelphia, 882 pp., 1993.

3.Wildgoose, W: British Small Animal Veterinary Association Manual of Ornamental Fish 2nd Edition, BSAVA, Gloucester, UK, 2001. 304

You need patience to read the whole articles and I think its worthwhile reading thanx for reading this post
Cheers

[CAGE-RATTLER]

i'm not wearing any pants if that counts. and careful what you ask for here...cage-rattler is just lookin for any excuse to get nekkid;)




Ok .... where did that come from? lol

[Andrew Soh]

Thanks Satty,

Nematode is not flagellate....and it lays eggs and die. Trypanosoma is flagellate but I though it produces by binary fission...hm... ..but what is its live cycle?

So, good maintainance is important.

Andrew:angel:

[Elcid]

Hi Andrew:

Do you do all your antibiotic treatments at high temperature in the 92 to 94 F, hmm that's 33 C to 35 C?

thanks,
Sandeep

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Deepsand,

No, I do all antibiotic treatment @ 27 to 28 so as not to overstress them. Some antibiotics are quite painful.

As to metronidazole, though against certain flagellates, it has antibiotic properties but I sometimes use it under temperature of 30c.


Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[satty]

Hi Andrew Flagellates are unicelluar ie Protozoan and Nematodes are Multicellular ie Metazoans
and coming to Flagellates life cycle theres not much of intermediate stages as in other Protozoan infections like the Trypanasomes or like the Malarial parasite. Theres only the unicellular Flagellate which causes the infection in the host didvide and infect another host as simple as that :)

[satty]

Life cycle to be more precise for Flagellates
1.Trophozoite(active form of the Protozoan with the flagella that attaches itself to the aniaml host
2.Division by Binary fission and the daughter cells loose their flagella and become cysts and excreted
3.Cysts the infective form,infects another host
Unlike other infection where you got Tropozoite schizonts merozoites etc etc
And in fluke and trematode infections too where you get intermediate forms living in both the Definitive host and temorary host like snails and other animals to completes their life cycle quite complicated isnt it?

[Elcid]

Haha Dr.Soh:

I thought I was doing something wrong, and what a waste of antibiotic :)......But then again, maybe we are both wasting antibiotic :).....Maybe our treatment not completely successful but atleast our fish still alive :)

thanks again,
Sandeep

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Satty,

Interesting theory, just great. Thanks. That's the way to go. Is the daughter-cell.... cyst or 'spore'? Cyst cannot infect but 'spore' can infect and attach to host. I am still learning......;)

Hey, hey, hey, Sandeep. I didn't ask to use antibiotic against flagellates and never had:mad: . It is just that metronidazole against flagellate also has antibiotic properties.....but works very differently....hm....:) :p

Some antibiotics with bactericidal effect is always recommended in treatment against any bacterium as it has a direct effect and kills the bacterium.

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[Elcid]

Hey Andrew:

Did u read this article

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=444656&pageindex=1#page

It's a good thing we don't conduct tests like the NIH ! :)

Ever use any Liver Chi in ur porkheart mix?

take care,
Sandeep

[Andrew Soh]

Hey Sandeep,

Good information. Some commercial proprietory brand of antibiotic for ornamental fish industry are recommending dosage way below effective strength....

This may create resistant strains of bacteria in the future.

That is way I have known to be controversial as I recommend higher dose and treatment to last for 12 days in my book and forum discussions, so as to ensure that bacteria are inhibited....as far as possible. Dosage too must be accurate.

Take care and thanks,
Andrew:angel:

[Timbo]

Hey Andrew:

Did u read this article

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=444656&pageindex=1#page



interesting article, but i would think there would have been some rather major developments in antibiotics since 1974

[satty]

Hi Andrew
The Infective one is the Cyst as it enters the body it forms the flagella and it is these flagella which helps in attaching the organism to the host cell and also the falgella helps in movements
Spore are another infective form which are mostly produced by Bacteria and these spores can withstand a huge degree of environmental stress and survive so nothing to get confused between spores and cysts for Falegallate infection its only cysts
For antibiotics the way we use is also quite wrong as in the link given in my previous post on the study conducted on tetracycline

[Andrew Soh]

Hey, but what you attached is a study done many years ago.......:confused:

Thanks for the information on cyst and spore. Sorry, if I remember clearly, spores are not confined to bacteria. Fungus too produce spores.

And you mean to say that flagellates produce cysts that can swim, search and enter the body and attach to host cell...and of course form flagella to anchor on the cell? I remember studies that show not all flagellates produce cysts....not hexamita nor spiro....but Trypanosoma and Cryptobia...yesss...

Thanks:) ...I still have lots to learn and sorry for my ignorant. I only know how to kill them;) ...he!he!he!

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[satty]

Hi there Andrew,
The study done on Tetracycline was done in 2000 heres the Journal with the page number and year of Publication
"Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 2000;12:246–253"
What I wanted to point out is the indiscriminate use of antibiotics and the underdosing as suggested by the Medicine manufacturers and the Increase of drug resistant organisms and the most important of all the way we dose the drug ie adding it to water and how the Antibiotic looses its efficacy by the so many factors present in water like temp/pH/Hardness etc etc.
The cyst is released into the water and the fish are ingesting the water arent they? think logically you will get the answer and even if the cyst enters the gill tissue they hatch out form flagellates and enter the Blood vessel and then get into the Intestine-their final destination for most of Protozoan infections and start dividing.
Iam not a Fish Vet but a Human physician basically and we have a big classification of all infections right from the Protozoan till the Metazoans and even in Veterinary medicine it is there so unless and until we get the proper classification of infective agents and their life cycle by Scientists its only goin to be like this quoting this guy that guy
You said studies show that not all Flagellates produce Cysts could you give us the link for the study done and when was it done if I may know
And if Spiro and Hex don’t produce cysts what are the infective forms of these Protozoans and their life cycle.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Satty,

I dont have the link to the flagellate topic but I have the book relating to that topic. It is 'Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment' by Edward J. Noga, M.S., D.V.M.

Sorry, I also made a mistake. It is written in page 195 with regard to flagellates, that 'A cyst is produced by some species.......and Hexamita cysts is -7 x10um'. So hexamita has cyst....oh my god. My apology:o to you and all the readers of this thread:o :p . I don't know which species do not produce cyst....

Maybe this is why my understanding of it is as mentioned above by Edward, that it is a release of a single cyst...thus which lead me to think that it is an occasion release of cyst (like winter egg) and not a standard usual formation of cyst whenever a binary fission takes place as explained by you. In other word, it is not a standard that whenever binary fission takes place, a daughter-cell is form...thus getting one flagellate and one cyst all the while...:confused:. If that is the case, if there are 10,000 new flagellates through binary fission, we expect 10,000 cyst at any one time:confused: .

Don't be mistaken my friend. I am not doubting you. I am just clearing my doubts:confused: :o . I can't know everything...right?

Thank you very much for your valuable info:) .

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[satty]

Cool scene Andrew dude
To Err is human and we learn lot of things only by making mistake,infact it makes me feel so happy and proud to answer the guy himself whos written a wonderful book and which is the most sought after book with Discus enthusiasts as of now
I think now we understand the importance of Classification of Disease and Causative organisms,Hexamita and Spironucleus are only the Genus(Genus-group of species) names and there are lot many species, though all the Species in a genera follow a common life cycle, stages and reproductive patterns there are subtle differences among them which has led to their classification of a species and that’s why certain few produce a different infective stage .And most of the books are written based on Salmonids and other Freshwater fishes and to be frank not much of work is done on Symphysodon so we generally apply the study and infective agents of other freshwater fishes to Discus too don’t we Andrew?
Even though all Fishes are the same Physiologically there are certain structural difference to make them survive in that particular environment and depending on the environment and their genetic make up every species has its own infective organism, for example Cyrptobia iuibilans for juvenile discus,Cryptobia salmositica for Salmons(Onchorhyncus sp) and every species has its own level of immunity,level to which they can be handled without stress and tolerance to Chemotherapeutic agent and what was being done for one particular species maynot hold good for another and this basic level of genetic difference in the species has to be respected and acknowleged.
And coming to your Cyst and flagellate thing lets say 5 new Trophozoites enter and attach the intestinal wall and they divide by Binary fission not all the 5 will form Cysts lets say two divide and form trophozoite and attach to the wall again and 3 will encyst and becme Cysts and move down through the intestine to be expelled out and infect a new host.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Satty,

It is always good to admit a mistake if we are uncertain but also with uncertainty, we challedge the doubts. A mistake made (old man) is a mistake and rightfully..one must admit and I'm never :o

With discussion...every confusion and doubt becomes clear:)

Good Satty...one up for you;)

Take care dude,

Andrew:angel:

[satty]

Hello Andrew and guys
This is a cool tabular column for Parasitic infections of Fishes
Reproduced with the kind permission of Dr.William Wildgoose,Editor BSAVA Manual of Ornamental Fish
Thank you Dr.Willie for the help

[satty]

Part 2 of tabular column

[satty]

The third part