What am I doing wrong??

[Kindredspirit]

In my 35 gal tank with the babies the water is so awful! I mean it guys, it is very cloudy!

I have 8 babies in there. Almost 50% wc daily. In the filter that hangs on the back, Top Fin 60, with a filter compartment on each side. In that I have sponges, bags of media, and the other day I put some carbon in~and yes I know that carbon is taboo with some....but dayumit! lol!

Too Much? Not enough? Wrong shyt? What am I doing wrong? I want it clear....We have had these babies for almost 6 weeks, I think...The water has never been clear...but this is ridiculous! Esp when you look at the 55gal and 10 right next to it~

I do feed like 5-7x a day, but there is never any left over. I do have a sponge on the intake. I use tap water. In all my tanks..No i can not age it or use RO..

A bacterial bloom for 6 weeks?? Possible? And yes the filter is cleaned on regular basis, recently in fact~I do not have my Hydro Sponge in there yet, it should be here any day, hopefully~

Months ago, I had this same problem with this same tank and someone suggested the HOT Magnum.... I bought and it made the water crystal clear....All other tanks are crystal clear!

However, I can not do that every time my water starts trippin! Anyone? Please tell me what you would do at this point~
What, if anything, am I missing??http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_9_8.gif


Marie~

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - this is gonna sound old but are your Ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate in ideal range? In other words you sure you have an established biological(beneficial) filtration in place? Did you "destroy" any good bacteria when you were cleaning the media?

Also you said "your water has never been clear" & you feed 5-7x a day in a 35g. Do you feed a lot of dry food(i.e.pellets) since those will tend to "pollute" your water quite fast.

Kenny

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Do you have any driftwood or anything in your tank that may be leeching something into the water to possibly keep it cloudy??

Also did you rinse the bags of media and carbon real well before adding it?

My new 55 that i setup got cloudy a couple days after setting it up but as of last night it is crystal clear again ............. and i havent done any water changes at all. I do have driftwood in there so i figured thats what clouded it up. Theres no fish in there still so thats why no water changes yet.

I was gonna start to do some but i have to drain it soon anyway to move it to the rack i just got and im also waiting for my sponges.

I guess about all you can do is keep up with the water changes and keep a good eye on the water pareameters. And maybe remove any driftwood to see if it clears up. But you said its been 6 weeks ........... so even driftwood should be ok now. maybe do some larger WC's for a while?

HTH

[traco]

It's a voodoo tank.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_3_1.gif

Nah, just joking but I know you went through the same thing and I also did but I don't think it lasted for 6 weeks with either of us? I should go back and read my posts to see how long it took to clear up. I do think it cleared up when I put the sponge filters in the tank so I would just keep doing what you're doing with your w/c changes, feeding, etc..., wait for your sponges, get them in and see.

I know it's frustrating to look at that one tank beside the others. At least you know it's not any of your practices as the others are doing great. AND the babies are growing and eating well in this cloudy tank also (of course, I'm just guessing at that as we have not seen any pictures recently of these little guys? Do you still have them, Marie, hmmmm.......?)

Pictures, please? I just did so YOUR turn, then CANDY'S turn.

[mikesmac]

Hi, Just in case you haven't heard this before a "clean" filter is not always a good thing. A part of your filter should always be "dirty" ie. established, with the bacteria needed to keep the nitrification process going. If there are 2 sides of your filter, only clean 1 side at a time and when cleaning it don't rinse it out with anything that is going to kill off the bacteria living on the surfaces, like chlorinated water, you just want to remove the detritus(crap and such) that builds up. The best thing to have is a "biological" filter which once established will support the fish in the tank, and some sort of prefilter which will catch all of the large debris before getting to the biological media and can be rinsed daily, if needed, because it is only acting as "mechanical" filtration. This is especially important if you are feeding alot on a regular basis. Even though all of the food may be gone, the amount of excrement is proportionate to the amount being fed to the fish. You said that you clean the filter all the time....The cloudiness that won't go away sounds as if you are not letting the tank cycle and are effectively starting from scratch every time you clean the filter. With a new tank it takes a solid 6 weeks for the needed bacteria to become established in a tank. This can be accelerated by seeding the tank with bacteria from a tank that is already established, even if you just use some of the water from your other tanks to replace water in the problem tank,(or decorations, plants, rocks, etc....anything with a surface for the bacteria to be growing on) as long as you know that you won't be spreading something from those tanks to the new one (all fish are healthy, right?)

[candyl70]

MM....
Marie had sponges in another tank and put them in the 35.. so she has an established tank. Also, Marie has been around long enough that she knows how to clean her filters. No offensive. It might sound that way, i'm just telling you she knows this stuff already and it is still cloudy. Any other suggestions??


Candy

[mikesmac]

Hi Candy, Nope no other suggestions. The only time I've ever had a tank stay cloudy (white milky cloudy) was because it was being cleaned too much before it was established. (Regularly "cleaning" filters with large water changes with un-aged tap water in a newly set up tank especially if the tap water is chlorinated because I don't rely on the efficacy of "conditioners" is a recipe for an uncycled tank) If it's some other color cloudiness, like green then maybe algae? But she didn't mention green, or algae. But if you want a suggestion for that....if you have a "mag float" tank cleaner or similar 2 sided magnetic tank cleaner, as long as the magnets are pretty strong, when you aren't using it to clean the tank, store it on one of the filter lines (one on each side with the filter line / tube sandwiched in between). You wouldn't think so but this actually makes it so you don't have to use it much because the algae growth is decreased significantly. Also helps with water quality as it "softens" the water while it is in place (this is a temporary effect-water reverts back after a period of time when no longer exposed to the magnetic field) and may help with cloudiness due to the softer water having less abilty to keep particles suspended.

Mike

[mikesmac]

I did just think of 1 other thing....Seashells....don't ever use them as decoration in a low PH freshwater tank as they will cause cloudiness (acid water disolves the calcium or whatever the shells are composed of)... and mess with the ph.

Mike

[Timbo]

not sure what the particular prob is in this circumstance, but it does almost sound like an uncycled tank. And Mike may be right if you are "cleaning" your filter/media too often. With a prefilter that is functioning and maintained properly, filters should not need to be cleaned very often at all.

how often is "regular basis" Marie?

a UV sterilizer will sometimes help with water-bourn bacteria blooms, but you most likely dont have access to one. they, and a water-polishing magnum, will help clear it up, but it will come right back again until the underlying problem is addressed. let the filter(s) run undisturbed for a month or two, just clean your prefilter and keep up the regiment...bet any money that will clear it up.

and yeah, its frustrating i'm sure, but have patience. (<---easy for me to say:))


MM....
Marie had sponges in another tank and put them in the 35.. so she has an established tank.
Candynot if she has "cleaned" them too often or incorrectly

[Alight]

Got another idea. What are you feeding the babies? I've noticed that some foods cloud the water much more easily than others, and some plug the sponge filters very rapidly to the point that you have to squeeze them thoroughly every day. The foods I've notice that cause problems are Formula 1 pellets, shaved blood worms and shaved mysis shrimp.

I still feed the later two, but clean the sponge filters on my HOB filter intakes and the sponge filters thoroughly every day. This means squeezing them till almost all the gunk is out every day. I don't touch the media or sponges inside the HOB filter except once a month or even less, and then only squeeze the sponges, and gently rinse the media.

I have absolutely no ammonia or nitrites with this regime, and nitrates are at 5 ppm or under. I test daily.

I also change 70% of the water daily. Keep in mind this is a 55 gallon tank in which I grow fry to a selling size. There can be as many as 100 fry in this tank at a time (all less than 2 inches).

[Pooquey2000]

Hey Marie,

Still up?? If you are give me a call.

When John and I think back to the solution for our cloudy tanks, the remedy that always worked was to cycle the tank!

I do have a question for you. I know that your brine (wastewater) goes right down the drain, so what are you ever so delicately rinsing your media in? Per my husband/instructor, it should be the top part of the wastewater (I use a bucket), after all the excrement and detritus has settled. Marie, I have so many humorous stories to tell you of my clumbsiness in this area! :) What my husband has had to put up with! The storys he could tell...How many differant ways can Clutzy Colette un-cycle a tank?

I think it was Mike that has my head reeling about the alternate use of MagnaFloats! I'm going to tell John about that and learn some more! Anyway, Mike made me realize that I'm very curious to see what your tds is!

If we come up, we'll bring our tds meter and microscope for sure! Hum, just sold the four-door sedan, wonder where that and all that other stuff's gonna go in the Miata?

Chin up - the clouds will part and your sunny juvies will be seen again:)

Colette

[pcsb23]

In my 35 gal tank with the babies the water is so awful! I mean it guys, it is very cloudy!

I have 8 babies in there. Almost 50% wc daily. In the filter that hangs on the back, Top Fin 60, with a filter compartment on each side. In that I have sponges, bags of media, and the other day I put some carbon in~and yes I know that carbon is taboo with some....but dayumit! lol!

Too Much? Not enough? Wrong shyt? What am I doing wrong? I want it clear....We have had these babies for almost 6 weeks, I think...The water has never been clear...but this is ridiculous! Esp when you look at the 55gal and 10 right next to it~

I do feed like 5-7x a day, but there is never any left over. I do have a sponge on the intake. I use tap water. In all my tanks..No i can not age it or use RO..

A bacterial bloom for 6 weeks?? Possible? And yes the filter is cleaned on regular basis, recently in fact~I do not have my Hydro Sponge in there yet, it should be here any day, hopefully~

Months ago, I had this same problem with this same tank and someone suggested the HOT Magnum.... I bought and it made the water crystal clear....All other tanks are crystal clear!

However, I can not do that every time my water starts trippin! Anyone? Please tell me what you would do at this point~
What, if anything, am I missing??http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_9_8.gif


Marie~

Marie, I am guessing that the tank is cycled and that nitrites and Am are 0. Firstly using carbon is not a crime, just remember to replace/remove it regularly. I have noticed that on my tanks when I use a sponge on the intake I can get cloudy water, don't know why, all params check out fine and the fish are fine, just looks naff! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_2.gif

If its poss try putting some floss in the first part of your filter and removing the sponge. just a thought! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_13_3.gif

Paul.

[ronrca]

Before jumping to any conclusion what it could be or what not, we need to establish the basics first. We need to know what the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are regardless. After that we can brainstorm and proceed to the next step. Mike made some very good points with respect to cleaning filters. It has happened many times even to experienced keepers that they accidently remove the bio filter via rinsing.

There are 2 parts to an effective filter imo, mechanical filteration and bio filteration. Both are separate however require each other to function effectively. The mechancial filteration should be cleaned daily to remove junk before it decays and causes problems. The bio filteration portion should be cleaned only as needed ie. when it starts to hinder water flow. In this particular case, Marie has sponges (mechanical) and bags of media which Im guessing are ceramic rings (bio).

Marie,
Another quick question comes to mind is how did you cycle the tank initially?

[traco]

I was guilty of the "rinsing the sponge filters really good and often" when I ran into this problem. I was worried too much about cleanliness and over-compensated. Now I have backed off with the sponge filters and rinse roughly every 3 weeks and alternating them also.

[Ryan]

I'm wondering if it's food-related, as well. If Marie's other tanks are all fine and this one isn't, what's different about this tank? She's feeding babies 5 - 7 times a day. And babies make a mess. Especially if you're shaving the foods you feed, or if they're tearing/shaking the foods which cause them to fall apart.

Certain ingredients in beefheart will make the water cloud if you don't clean up right after feeding it. Also, flakes and pellets will cloud the water. Water changes don't really help much when you think about it -- you change 50% of the water, feed the fish, and they make a mess again. It's a never-ending battle.

I would think that Marie would be seeing problems if the tank weren't cycled. She said she's had this problem since she brought the babies home and that was several weeks ago. And if she was using an established filter, the cycle should be fine.

The only other idea I had is that maybe there was a LARGE bacteria colony built up in the used filter, and her babies aren't putting off enough ammonia to feed the whole colony, so part of it's dying off? I know that sounds far-fetched, but I had that happen years ago on a community tank that I drastically reduced the number of fish in. That was the best explanation we could ever come up with.

Ryan

[ronrca]

Your right Ryan however we are still guessing and until we actually know what is actually happening, we need to know the lvls just to be sure its not an cycling issue.

[Elcid]

What's the temperature? How long does it take for the babies to finish the food during each feeding? Sorry to say your tank isn't cycled! adn for the bioload you probably don't have enough filter media in ur tank, put a couple of hydrosponges in addition to ur external filter, wipe the inside glass and bottom with bounty every time you change water (before you change it).

[Kindredspirit]

Okay...not what I need right now with the new babies coming...lol!


I just did my water test:


Ph = 7.6

Ammonia = .25 ( never happened to me before..)

Nitrites = .25

Nitrates = 10



I need to know exactly what this means please. Did the two readings spike because the water is so funky?? I feel like lousy a fish owner! I have never had readings like this guys! And the readings were all 0 , 24 hours ago~

My readings on all my tanks have never been this...So, I'm guessing that I need to do a wc real quick? I just got off the phone with Dan, and I am the only one that has not gotten her fish yet! So, I am waiting for the doorbell as I speak...I can not answer every post right now, but I will as soon as I get these discus in their tank....

The babies in this tank are all acting fine....Is this real serious? I feed them, bh, flake, cbw, and color bits....I have no driftwood...and I am waiting for my Hydro Sponges...

I might have cleaned my filter too well....I do not do it often tho...

El, when I feed the babies, I do not give them more, til they eat every single bit! So there isnt any left over... And you think I should put more stuff in my filters?


Ron... I just heard good things about you!! umm....you were right about the readings....but they have never been this, and the tank has always been cloudy! I think Barb is right ...a voodoo tank! lol!

I initially cycled this tank, 6 weeks ago, by adding sponges from other tanks, and some of their water as well, I think...also, Cliff gave us some of his sponges to bring home...It has been cloudy from day one, but never this bad. The tank was crystal clear for a week, waiting for the babies, if that helps~

The temp is 86.7. always...even after wc....from the tap.


Okay... I shall be back cuz I hear a truck!!


Thanks guys, looks like I have all the experts helping....but I think I may have to juss deal ~


Marie~

[Elcid]

When another poster posted about his nickel size babies doing fine after one day I wanted to say wait a week! Then u'll be back! That's because as the fish eat and produce more and more waste in a week the cycle is at it's peak and u will get a nitrite reading. Check some graphs of how the biological cycle works in fish tanks on the web.

The truth of the matter is the tank cannot fully cycled prior to adding fish unless the bioload on it is the same as the bioload ur new fish will produce. In effect, when you add new fish the cycle begins again!

What to do? Drain out that tank completely and fill it back up with the water from your 55 gallon (not the new one) the established one. When you do a water change on ur 55 always, 1st drain ur small tank and then fill it up with the clear water from the 55 gallon tank and then refill the 55. You may have to do this for a few days before enough bacteria is established in ur small tank to handle the load. So long as the two tanks are the same temperature you could change 100% of the water in ur small tank without upsetting the fish.

Direct tapwater can interfere with ur biocycle especially if there is a lot of chlorine in the water and u don't dechlorinate before adding to ur tank.

[Timbo]

Ammonia = .25 ( never happened to me before..)

Nitrites = .25

Nitrates = 10

it means we were right...your tank is not fully cycled, at least not for the current bioload. and...those readings will only get worse if you add more load.

proceed with caution

[ronrca]

What to do Marie! Relax first. Getting anxious increases mistakes.

First, what water conditioner are you using? Add water conditioner that detoxes ammonia/nitrites. This will ease the fish and ensure they are not harmed. Second, increase wc amount and frequency. You will need to do this until the bio filter catchs up to the bio load in the tank. The most important factor atm is your discus and keeping the ammonia/nitrite lvls as low as possible. This may mean numerous wc's daily but it will be worth it.

How to avoid such situations in the future?

What you did was fine only you need to increase the bio filter size 'artifically' to handle any bio load. To do this you use the fish cycling method of adding ammonia. Adding established bio filters such as you did decrease the cycling time however the tank will cycle regardless unless the bio load is smaller.

HTH

[Kindredspirit]

I am confused~


It was cycled 6 weeks ago? Now it isnt? So, you want me to put water from the established 55gal , into this 35gal? During wc?


I am sorry if I am just not getting this....also I have always used tap water. I add Prime. Never a problem. I have no choice.


Cary told me when I got my discus from him back in Sept to use tap water. That is a good thing, cuz that is all I have! lol!



Marie~


Ron...sorry if I offended you!

[Elcid]

When was the last time you made a change in this tank? i.e added fish, removed filters, washed filters in tap water, changed your routine, etc? I thought you said you've had cloudy water for a while? Do you have a thermometer to check the temp? Put ur hand in the water (OUCH) :), does it feel warm or cold when u put ur hand in?

[ronrca]

Marie,
Water itself doesnt have much bacteria count to sufficently affect the bio filter. The best is to use established filters like you did.

During those 6 weeks that you cycled this tank, what did you use to 'feed' the bacteria?

I believe your tap water is fine as long as you use Prime to detox the chlorine and ensure the temp matchs the tanks temp. Add prime right away to detox ammonia/nitrite lvls and do some wc's. You can either increase the volume or you can increase the frequency or both if you can.

[Jeckel]

If your bio filter has conked out, you might try to reseed it with a product called Bio-Spira. I've only used it once, but it seemed to help with a nitrite spike I experienced. Other products that claim to provide nitrifying bacteria are probably a waste of money, but a lot of knowledgeable people seem to believe in Bio-Spira. It's a refrigerated product and is expensive (I think around $20 for one treatment), but might be worth a try. Where I live, only the better (as opposed to PetSmart/Petco) shops have it.

[ronrca]

:thumbsup:
If you can get your hands on it, certainly try it. I have never been able to as its not sold up here.

[candyl70]

J,

I used that in addition to seeded sponges when I got my babies, and i had no problems at all. It was instantly cycled. I mentioned it to Marie also.

Ron, do you think she may have washed some of the good bacteria away when she rinsed her sponges?? Carol or someone like that said that it is very hard to wash away the bacteria. What do you think?

[ronrca]

Hard to really say candy! I know that it is possible to rinse bacteria from your filters however this is going to depend on where the bio colony primary lived. That is why I mentioned the 2 part filter previously. If you bio primary lives where it is suppose and where you count on it being, rinsing sponges will not affect the primary colony. However, if the colony primary colonized in the sponge and it gets continuly rinsed daily, you will have problems. Eventually the bacteria will continue to colonize the bio media such as the ceramic rings however it take time.

[Kindredspirit]

When was the last time you made a change in this tank? i.e added fish, removed filters, washed filters in tap water, changed your routine, etc? I thought you said you've had cloudy water for a while? Do you have a thermometer to check the temp? Put ur hand in the water (OUCH) :), does it feel warm or cold when u put ur hand in?


El~ I change water every day. Havent added any fish since we got the babies from Cliff. And yes, the water has been cloudy for a while. Always infact! The temp is, once again, 86.8... I wipe down all walls and squeeze intake sponges in tank water in a bucket...every wc....

Recently i just cleaned the filters...

[Elcid]

Ur filter isn't working correctly and ur tank isn't cycled........You said you put a sponge at the intake? Does that slow down the flow a lot? For now remove if it does so that more flow goes through the filter. I'm not too familiar with the Top Fin unit? The sponges in the filter, does the water flow through them and doesn't just bypass around them? I was wondering what kind of thermometer you are using to measure temperature, do you have one that goes in the water (the old fashion type) with the glass tube or is it one of those stick on the outside type? Sometimes, if ur temp is too hot > 90 F, then it takes more time for ur tank to cycle. Put your hand in the water if it feels hot, it's probably more hot than it should be it should feel cool when you put ur hand in. Watch out, as ur tank cycles the ammonia and nitrite will become too high and damage ur fish, so change water more. Either that or move those fish into ur 55 and don't change the water until the cloudyness clears indicating that ur cycle is completed...

[traco]

I've also read about a produce called "Stability" by Seachem which helps with ammonia, etc... of new tanks.

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Stability.html

[pcsb23]

Marie, I know you are being bombarded with advice. This is what I would do in this situation. 1) do as large a w/c as practical 2) add prime directly to the tank after the water change, this will lock up the current active ammonia and give a little buffer time, it will probably still show a reading on your test though!! 3) add an airstone, the tank/filter will cycle quicker witha good oxygen supply. 4) do min 50% w/c at least daily, twice daily if you can.

Finally don't be too hard on yourself we ahve all been there and done this, keep calm and you will get through this.
Paul.

[mikesmac]

Hi Marie, I know I'm new to posting here but I hope you will consider some suggestions. The readings in your new tank show problems with the bio filter, but having a nitrate reading of 10 shows that it is working, just not keeping up. The ammonia is an immediate threat, especially for small discus, and is what may cause problems for you even if the fish aren't showing any stress.... yet...delayed problems may show up if the problem isn't corrected quickly. Simply lowering the PH below neutral converts free ammonia into ammonium, which is less toxic than ammonia, but a quick change in Ph would not be desirable. Just from looking at your specs of what you have, if I were you I'd make sure the temps and PH were about the same and move the fish from the new tank in with the others in the 55 gallon, at the same time hooking up the filters from the new tank to also run on / in the 55 gallon. This will provide good water for the smaller fish immediately without fighting to get the new tank cycled, at the same time it will allow the filters from the new tank to catch up to where they need to be, and once established then all can be transferred back to the new tank. Filter capacity is what determines the quality of the water. An overcrowded tank with excess filter capacity(even though with the fish you have listed the 55 doesn't look like it will be "overcrowded"...at least not while the "babies" are still small) is not a problem. The worst you will get is a quicker buildup of Nitrates which are easily removed with water changes. It may be cluttered and not pretty looking for a couple of weeks, but your fish will thank you. Just be advised... although it shouldn't... (if the tank has been established for a while).... initially the water may cloud in the 55 gallon tank until the bacteria catch up with the additional bio-load, but an established tank will usually catch up very quickly as it's just a matter of multiplication of what are already there.The larger the base to multiply from, the quicker the multiplication takes place. As I said earlier it takes a good 6 weeks for a filter to fully cycle, but if you are producing nitrates then it is already partially through the process and may only need a couple of weeks to be where it needs to be. In the mean time I'd use the 35 gallon tank to let your water "age" (at least 24 hours with heat and aeration) for water changes. One other thing...water changes are to reduce the end product- Nitrates. Excessive water changes while a filter / tank is being cycled can be counter productive because you are effectively removing the food source for the bacteria that you are trying to get to multiply. In a cycled tank the level of bacteria present equalizes with the amount of waste being produced by the inhabitants, that's why sudden increases in the population puts a strain on the bio-filter until the bacteria can multiply to take care of the increased load, and also why decreases in population, especially to zero inhabitants, allows the bio-filter to die off because it has no food source. Just as a note for future reference, I always have extra filters running in my tanks just to use in case I want to separate some one from the crowd, or medicate individuals. If I am looking to add additional tank space I always buy the filter first and let it run on established tanks until I know it is cycled. If I get over anxious and don't want to wait the 6 weeks, I tie the new tank to an established tank (siphons usually) and run them together until I know they are set. Hope this helps. Good luck.

Mike

[Jeckel]

One more item to remember in emergencies: there's a product called Nitra-Zorb made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals that is designed to absorb ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate from water. It's basically resin in a porous pouch. You put it into your filter, and it removes the bad stuff. It'll probably get saturated in a day or two, but you can recharge it in warm salt water and reuse. I've used it, and it seemed to reduce the ammonia or nitrite readings (not necessarily all the way to zero). Of course, I don't know what the readings would have been if I hadn't used the Nitra-Zorb. Anyway, many fish stores carry it.

[Kindredspirit]

Marie, I know you are being bombarded with advice. This is what I would do in this situation. 1) do as large a w/c as practical 2) add prime directly to the tank after the water change, this will lock up the current active ammonia and give a little buffer time, it will probably still show a reading on your test though!! 3) add an airstone, the tank/filter will cycle quicker witha good oxygen supply. 4) do min 50% w/c at least daily, twice daily if you can.

Finally don't be too hard on yourself we ahve all been there and done this, keep calm and you will get through this.
Paul.


Hey Paul!

I am getting bombarded but it is what i asked for isnt it? I already have an airstone in the tank. And I always add Prime right to the tank. I will do a 50% wc now.


Thanks Paul~


Marie~

[mikesmac]

Ahhh, so much for that effort.... nitrification process 101, verifiable by anyone willing to take the time to do the research. Trial and error...worst way to learn. Ammonia kills fish....nitrites kill fish.....even low exposure over extended periods = fatalities.... eventually. "if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger" doesn't apply here. The ammonia is burning their gills and nitrites are screwing with their blood chemistry. The longer it goes on the more irreversable damage is occurring. That's why you don't cycle tanks with expensive fish unless you don't mind watching them die.....and with the solution....an already cycled tank.... sitting there at your disposal. Ammo-lock....Prime..... Sorry.....Trial and error.....

[ronrca]

How are things going in the tank Marie? Any symptons that you can see from the fish?

Dont get discouraged! You will make it thru no problem.

[Timbo]

You will make it thru no problem.
and hopefully the fish will too:)

i'd be real interested to see new ammonia, nitrite readings..is the tank chemistry getting better or worse Marie?

[Kindredspirit]

I will test the water now, guys~ It has only been one 50% wc, so far tho... brb~




M~

[Kindredspirit]

Okay Guys~

Here are the readings...

Nitrites = 0

Nitrates = 0

Ammonia = it is pretty much zero..not as yellow as it normally is...but no green at all..

Ph= 7.6

So.......... I am at a total loss. I wish I can get into all your heads right about now! I have done one wc @ 50%...What does this mean? And shouldn't my water be clear? Cuz is not~




Ahhh, so much for that effort.... nitrification process 101, verifiable by anyone willing to take the time to do the research. Trial and error...worst way to learn. Ammonia kills fish....nitrites kill fish.....even low exposure over extended periods = fatalities.... eventually. "if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger" doesn't apply here. The ammonia is burning their gills and nitrites are screwing with their blood chemistry. The longer it goes on the more irreversable damage is occurring. That's why you don't cycle tanks with expensive fish unless you don't mind watching them die.....and with the solution....an already cycled tank.... sitting there at your disposal. Ammo-lock....Prime..... Sorry.....Trial and error.....


Mikemacs~ Please forgive me, I didnt mean to like ignore your post. That isnt me. But in all honesty, I do not want to mix anyone with anyone else right now~It is pretty clear you know of that which you speak and I appreciate it more than you know, but to know me, Mike, is to keep it simple! I am blonde...lol! Please do not think your time and efforts below went unoticed ( that so doesnt look right!) as I did read every word. Three times. If you would have said: 'Marie your fish are gonna die, do this now'... I would have on a dime, Sir...but they are still piggies and very active....

Could you please tell me what you think now? My readings are posted up there^ ... and you mentioned you are new to posting here? Well, make no mistake, Mike...You will have plenty of opportunity to post more where I am concerned! But remember that I am not as smart as you when it comes to this, I deal with the mind, Mike...lol... not test tubes and bio filters, and cycles! lol!!

Again, I do apologize, I didnt mean to ignore your suggestions as that was not my intentions at all!


Ron, Jeckle, Timbo... Thanks guys!! Jeckle, I have heard of that product as well~


So, Now what guys?? Tank still cloudy, not as bad, since first wc...and readings are okay...


I so need to know the first thing that went thru your minds, since the new readings... cuz ....that is the only way I am ever going to learn~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[craniac24]

Marie,

You said that the HOT Magnum worked well in clearing up your cloudy water before. Why not run it again? I have one and it takes all of 47 seconds to fill with water, hang on the tank, and plug in. Leave it on overnight and voila...crystal clear water!

HTH. Joe

[Jeckel]

The most striking (and puzzling) thing I notice is that your nitrate reading was 10, then went down to 0 after a 50% wc (if I understand your posts correctly). I'd think the nitrates should have gone down to 5, right?

Maybe your test kits are flaky? A few months ago I had a nitrite spike and treated with Amquel Plus, which is supposed to remove nitrites. I didn't see any effect on my nitrite readings, so I e-mailed the manufacturer. Their response was, in part:
>We are finding that many of the colorimetric test kits measuring nitrogen
>compounds (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and chlorine being presently sold
>for aquarium and pond use are to some extent inaccurate. The basic problem
>is that reading low levels at parts per million requires great accuracy in
>reagents that cannot be provided at a cheap price. Technical grade
>test-kit reagents that are considerably more expensive are needed for this
>purpose. The trend has been to make aquarium and pond test kits ever more
>inexpensive, but to do so lessens accuracy, in some cases to being
>considerably inaccurate in test results.
>
>We know from using scientific grade electronic test kits costing hundreds
>or thousands of dollars each that Amquel+ removes chlorine, chloramines,
>and nitrogen compounds (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) per dose as indicated
>on the product label. Unfortunately, the aquarist or pond keeper may be
>unable to determine proper test readings when using the inexpensive test
>kits provided by pet and aquarium stores.
I had expected them to say the Amquel Plus chemically binds the nitrite so test kits still record it, but it's no longer harmful to fish. Instead they asserted the readings were unreliable. I'm not sure how much of this I buy, but I'm sure test kit readings can be misleading, especially if one uses old solutions or contaminated vials.

Apart from the nitrate anomaly, maybe you overwhelmed the bio filter with a bit of overenthusiastic feeding, and it had to catch up? I've heard the bacteria can double their population in 24 hours, so maybe that's why the ammonia and nitrites are looking better.

I'm glad your fish are still happy. After all, that's what's important!

[Kindredspirit]

Thank you , jeckle!!

My test kits had better be okay!! lol...


Cran~ I had never thought of that...hmm....but I have it on my 55gal now...not the new one...I am not sure if I can pop it over to the 30 for a bit?


I am not even sure I could go there on that one~

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_8.gif

[ronrca]

Marie,
It takes time! If your cloudiness is solely due to your tank recycling, it could take days to clear up. However during that time, keep up the wc's, double dosages of prime and keep monitoring ammonia/nitrite lvls. As mentioned, the most important factor is your discus atm, not the nitrification process. Keep the ammonia/nitrite levels low as possible and detoxed with prime. You and your discus will be fine! :thumbsup:

[pcsb23]

Marie, glad to see the readings down, roncxra is right, the fish are the important thing at the mo' often after Amonia goes you get a nitrite spike, then then nitrates go up (nitrogen cycle blah!). This is where good old fashioned salt comes in, it won't cure the nitrite but it helps protect the fish. Salt is fine with prime too! Small amounts will do fine 1 tblspn per 10 galls is fine.
Paul.

[craniac24]

Cran~ I had never thought of that...hmm....but I have it on my 55gal now...not the new one...I am not sure if I can pop it over to the 30 for a bit?


I am not even sure I could go there on that one~

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_8.gif[/CENTER]

Why not? It's portable, and it's worked for you before. Seems like a no brainer to me....no?

[traco]

I think Marie is more worried about transmitting something from one tank to another? Right Marie? I could be wrong too, though.:o

[Dissident]

The best advice was already given, if NO3=0 then your tank and filters are not cycled. That is a big problem. Waterchanges as stated before will make it worse. You need all the fish poo you can get to get the tank re-established.

Sure water changes will get rid of some NH4 but you cant build up bacteria colony this way. You have an establihed tank, clean the filter from that tank in your 55gal. Or use the filter media from the established filter in the 55gal's filter.

In your case you want to start seeing nitrates ASAP, even a little ammonia and no nitrates means the tank is not cycled, or now going through a mini-cycle.

Stable water is the best water, unstable water stresses fish and leaves them open for all kinds of infections, adding all kinds of chemicals compounds the problem.

[Dissident]

The most striking (and puzzling) thing I notice is that your nitrate reading was 10, then went down to 0 after a 50% wc (if I understand your posts correctly). I'd think the nitrates should have gone down to 5, right?

Apart from the nitrate anomaly, maybe you overwhelmed the bio filter with a bit of overenthusiastic feeding, and it had to catch up? I've heard the bacteria can double their population in 24 hours, so maybe that's why the ammonia and nitrites are looking better.

I'm glad your fish are still happy. After all, that's what's important!

IMO that 10ppm NO3 was left over from b4 cleaning the filters, water change brought it down to 10 and subsequent waterchanges brought it down even more. To the point the test kit isnt even reading it.

I am betting that cleaning the filters all the good bacteria was killed and the tank is going to have to go through a whole new cycle.

I would read mikesmac's advice again, IMO he hit it on the head.

[craniac24]

I think Marie is more worried about transmitting something from one tank to another? Right Marie? I could be wrong too, though.:o

If the HOT Magnum is a supplemental filter, and not her main one, sterilizing the filter and its media should be no problem. Soak the components and the media in mild bleach solution for 30 minutes, then 30 minutes in clean water with a 5x dosage of dechlorinator.

If its her main filtration source for the 55 gal, then yes...I guess that wouldn't be practical.

[candyl70]

Can you restate that please?? It's really hard for me to understand and i know chemistry... what exactly does she need to do?

[Dissident]

Ammonia (NH3) _ from fish poo/rotting food (really bad for fish)
NitrIte (NO2) _ Converted from NH3 by bacteria in your filter (still bad for fish)
NitrAte (NO3) _ Converted from NO2 by bacteria in your filter (removed by water changes only harmful in extreme levels)

Sine you show some NH3 no NO2 or NO3 it means all the beneficial bacteria is gone. If the first stage of the cycle is there you would have some NH3 and some NO2. Once you start getting NO2 you will start to see NO3 levels going up (a very good sign in this case) shortly after.

With your fish in there it is a catch22, you need NH3 and NO2 to get NO3 and to have an established tank. At the same time NH3 and NO2 are extremely toxic to your fish, so you have to remove NH3 and NO2 by doing water changes which doesn’t allow for the beneficial bacteria to grow so you don't have NH3 or NO2.

By doing water changes you prolong how long this cycle takes to establish.

Options:
1: Stop water changes allow tank to cycle naturally (high fatality rate)
2: Keep up with water changes, prolong cycle (moderate fatality rate)
3: Use a filter from an established tank (best option, should drop NH3 and NO2)
4: Seed filter with material from established filter, or clean filter floss/sponges in tank (give tank cycle a kick start and monitor NH3&NO2)
5: Use ‘instant cycle’ product like bio-spyra (personally never used heard good and bad, not sure how discus would react)
6: Move everything to your QT until 55gal is cycled (overcrowding)

Hope that is easier to follow.

[mikesmac]

Hello again Marie,

Thanks for responding....yeah I was getting discouraged...I hate seeing any Discus die....

Just a point about the test levels, Jeckel hit it right, if you had 10ppm and do a 50% water change the least it should read right after is 5ppm. I've found that any of the readily available test kits sold in the LFS's for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates.....and chlorine aren't accurate and only show positive once they are well into the dangerous levels. I have tried them all I think, and still have lots of them around, but once I started using Salifert tests they are the only ones I rely on. For GH and PH I use AqPharm for ballpark results, but the tests for critical substances fall to Salifert...and they are more expensive than the others, but worth it to me.

Thanks to Dissident...I was hoping someone with more postings here, that hopefully had your (Marie) confidence would chime in.
I still think I am in the minority here though....but unless I am mistaken, taking care of the water quality is directly related to the health of the discus so I'm going to try to shed a little perspective on this.

*
Lets see... if you were locked in a small airtight room with a burning candle and a fern.....not too bad initially but as time went on the smoke, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide built up to toxic levels....the smoke is burning your lungs, and carbon dioxide and monoxide are building up in your system.....the fern is converting some of the air back to oxygen,but not keeping up with your breathing or the candle burning.... 12 hours later you were allowed to exchange half the air in the room for fresh air so the levels drop to half as bad...but as time went on the toxic levels continue rising again.....12 hours later etc...... I am making this example because smoke, and carbon monoxides' effects on a human in an airtight space is the closest correlation that I can think of to what ammonia and nitrites do to fish in an aquarium....*** Anyone familiar with carbon monoxide? If a person is exposed to toxic levels it affects your blood chemistry, which then starts affecting internal organs causing them to not function correctly and eventually shut down. Permanent damage whether it be to the brain, liver, kidneys etc. can be incremental or complete. A human body does have the ability to expel small amounts of it, but when exposed to toxic levels, simply removing half the toxins and continuing with exposure at the lower level while the level then continues increasing again, this time from a higher starting point unless that fern starts working overtime....is not going to save you. It may temporarily alleviate discomfort, and delay the onset of acute symptoms, but carbon monoxide poisoning in humans, just as with nitrites in fish, is cumulative. The inability to process out the toxins and resulting damage to internal organs may not kill immediately, but long term health will be affected and as I think we know, a stressed discus is usually not a healthy one for very long.
*
Getting back to our airtight room... if you had a choice between exchanging half your air every 12 hours, and getting to use some miracle air spray that claimed to "lock up" carbon monoxide that you bought from a TV infomercial....... or removing yourself to a connected greenhouse that had lots of fresh air and plenty of ferns to process out the toxins in the air, what would be your choice?

In real life, when people are exposed to toxic levels of Carbon Monoxide, and the firemen pull them out of their house or wherever they don't just say....."there you go...fresh air... here have a little oxygen, you'll be ok"....Nope...off to the hyperbaric chamber you go because what's built up in your system is still causing and / or will continue to cause damage until it is forced out. Is that a complete cure?... even that may not effect a complete cure if exposure was too high or too long. I hear all the time about people needing dialysis after exposure because of permanent damage to their kidneys. Unfortunately for fish, stopping continued exposure is the best available action because as far as I know there is no comparative treatment to force high levels of nitrites out of a fish, so internal "exposure" will continue even after the external conditions are remediated. High levels, low levels, high levels,....."locked up" levels?.... etc. ...exposure is still there, unless of course your tank kicks in and completes its' cycle, then no worries. But if your tank is still cloudy.....hasn't happened.

As far as being concerned about exposing residents of 1 tank to something from the other... that's your choice about which is the lesser of 2 evils, exposing old members to possible parasites, or exposing new members to possible death.

As a last note this wouldn't appear to be a time to continue "growing out" your little ones. Until the system can handle it it would seem to be more important to be conservative with feedings.

Mike

[Timbo]

ya know, i just finished typing another long 2 paragraphs of advice, trying to simplify it as well...

but i deleted it because you have been well-advised already by the previous. (some good analogies too) everything you need to know has already been written (the important stuff, several times)

and the test kit is not working (obviously)
good luck marie...look at Dissident's 6 options

[ronrca]

lol! It seems that we are repeating ourselves over and over. ;)

I think we pretty much killed the point of the filter not being cycled. Its dealing with it that even to myself is a little muddied from the responses and perhaps misunderstanding one other.

In this case, its a little late to be trying to establish a fully cycled bio filter even though this would be ideal. Discus are in and to stay. The ideal answer were to take the discus out and allow the tank to finish its cycle via fishless cycling. However, not sure if this is feasible. So, on to the next options.



By doing water changes you prolong how long this cycle takes to establish.

Options:
1: Stop water changes allow tank to cycle naturally (high fatality rate)
2: Keep up with water changes, prolong cycle (moderate fatality rate)
3: Use a filter from an established tank (best option, should drop NH3 and NO2)
4: Seed filter with material from established filter, or clean filter floss/sponges in tank (give tank cycle a kick start and monitor NH3&NO2)
5: Use ‘instant cycle’ product like bio-spyra (personally never used heard good and bad, not sure how discus would react)
6: Move everything to your QT until 55gal is cycled (overcrowding) :thumbsup:
Id use #2 with double doses of Prime as prime detoxs ammonia/nitrite lvls but allowing the bio to use it - 0 fatalities!
Id also continue with aggressive feeding so to avoid any stunting. While the cycle will be prolonged, what other choice is there except losing discus or moving them into another tank.

#3 is also good if an established filter is available to use however there is still the time factor and also providing this filter is sufficient in size to handle lvls as well plus a cross contaminention factor.

[mikesmac]

Hello ronrca, ......off topic for this thread.....you've mentioned fishless cycling a few times in this thread and I was just wondering....have you had success with that? I've tried it..... didn't really need to because I already had established tanks, but tried anyways just to see if it would work in case I needed it in an emergency. My attempts were unsuccessfull because I didn't trust putting anything in the water after going through the process and seeing the test results I was getting. Trying to feed the bacteria with ammonia..and I tried a few of brands of what was sold as "clear" ammonia that supposedly had no surfactants in it, produced PH readings that were so high they were even off the scale of my high range tester. I dumped so much acid in trying get it lower that my TDS was a HUGE number. And talk about rebound....even once I could get it in the readable range it wouldn't stay there for long.... What kind of ammonia do you use? Every one I've tried did the same thing. I've seen info on people having success doing the fishless, but not specifically for a discus....low PH, soft water tank.

2nd issue ...kind of on topic....you must put a lot of faith in "Prime", or own stock :)....every one of these "lock up ammonia", "help your tank cycle faster" products claims that their product is the only one that has "proven lab results" showing that theirs is the only one that works..... I'm guilty of wasting my money on them.... I like to call them false hope products because I have as yet to see any of them do anything that the underlying bio-filter couldn't have accomplished on it's own. ...."0 Fatalities"...? and you use this stuff and are more worried about stunting than toxic chemical laden water? You must have the best luck of any aquarium owner I've ever heard of. ......"continue aggressive feeding"....?? ......in a tank with ammonia and nitrite problems? Sorry, I don't get that at all.

Mike

[ronrca]

Mike,
I have done fishless cycling many, many times already with great success. First time I did it was in my 90G. I build up the bio so big that I was able to fully stock it with fish once the cycle was complete with no problems at all. I use a no name brand of ammonia that my wife buys from Safeway. Not sure where in the US that would be however. Perhaps other members could help with that. The ammonia must be clear, nonscented, nothing added, etc. When shaked, must not bubble at all. I remember my wife mentioning that she did have to visit a few stores to actually find this.

Not sure regarding the pH shift up though. Were you adding too much ammonia perhaps? When I add ammonia, I only add a little at a time until I hit 5ppm and no more. I do this over 2 days and log the amount of ammonia it takes to do so.

Regarding Prime, it only binds ammonia/nitrites among other things however not in regard to the nitrification cycle. It doesnt get rid of it. Prime also does not cycle your tank faster. Its only a water conditioner that removes heavy metals, detoxes chlorine and breaks the bond between ammonia and chlroine (aka chloramines). Once the ammonia/nitrite are bonded with prime, it renders it harmless (detoxes) to fish however the bacteria are still able to consume it for their purpose of converting it into the next stage of the nitrogen cycle. I have had similar problems such as Marie (because of getting over anxious) and having my tank recycle. By using such water conditioners that detox ammonia/nitrite lvls, I was able to continue my feeding routines without having the ammonia/nitrite lvls harming my discus. Without prime, I would not be able to do so hence my recommendations as such. Without prime, the situation would be much graver indeed and other measures necessary.

I also agree with you regarding 'miracle' products that help cycle your tanks or even instantly cycle or whatever.

Id like to include a response I received from Seachem in 2002 when asking similar questions:

I have been using Prime for around 2 years and really like it. Prime
has not gave me a problems what so ever and I will continue using it.

I do have a question regarding chloramines and Prime. I know what Prime
does to the chloramines, breaking the bond between ammonia and chlorine
and further binding them to nontoxic components (ammonium/chloride).
However, the ammonium will still 'cycle' or be processed by the bio.
filter. The next step is my concern. When the ammonium is 'processed',
it must convert into nitrites. These nitrites (my concern), will they
also be nontoxic? Will Prime bind them again (without dosing)? If I do
dose and the nitrites are bonded, will they show up on my test kits?

Another curious question, when the ammonium is 'processed' and the
Prime is not bonded anymore, is it available to bond will free ammonia
or nitrites? What happens with the Prime after it is 'processed'?

Thank you for your time and thank you for such great products!

Ron



Dear Ron,

Prime has the ability to bind pollutants for up to a 24 hour period and can be dosed daily to help in situations of a damaged or undeveloped biological filter. Even though these pollutants are "detoxified", they are still available to be disposed of by a biological filter. Prime is a strong reducing agent, however the conditions that conventional test kits are performed under (most ammonia tests and all nitrite and nitrate tests) destroy the reducing agent in the sample being tested registering a false positive. Your fish will exhibit tell tale signs of being affected by these pollutants by labored breathing, reddening of the gills, and hanging near the surface. If you experience this, Prime can be used up to 5x the dose daily to act as a "band-aid" until your biological filter can catch up. After Prime has reduced/bound something, it is broken down and disposed of by your biological filter as well.
--
Best Regards,
Seachem Technical Support,rb~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~


And another question as follows:

Thank you for your response and reassurance. One question still
remains, how much Prime to use if your nitrite levels are 0.1, 0.3 and 0.8?

Dear Ron,

The detoxification of nitrite by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart, and use the nitrite. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify varying amounts of nitrite. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product. Your fish will be the tell tale signs of elevated nitrite levels. If you experience labored breathing by your fish, reddening of the gills, and hanging near the surface, you can add more Prime.
You can use up to 5x the recommended dose of Prime daily until this problem is under control. If the 5x Prime dose does not bind everything, water exchanges should be performed to thin out this pollutant.

Best Regards,
Seachem Technical Support,rb~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~


HTH ;)

[Dissident]

lol! It seems that we are repeating ourselves over and over. ;)

thumbsup:
Id use #2 with double doses of Prime as prime detoxs ammonia/nitrite lvls but allowing the bio to use it - 0 fatalities!


would she be able to do a combination of #2 with prime and salt, along with #5 use some type of Instant Cycle product? The catch22 of not allowing ammonia/nitrates to build up is my concern in this situation. If the proper bacteria colonies are introduced some other way it might hasten the process so she doesnt have to stress the discus anymore than needed?

I'm kind of curious as to how fish respond those products, I have never used them and know people have had luck with them to cycle a tank without fish in it. Perhaps someone here has?

[mikesmac]

Hi Ron,

Those are interesting responses from Seachem.....the product works, but they aren't sure why, but they received enough reports from aquarium owners saying that it helped that it must be true. Now that is science at it's best.

It would be interesting to see the ratio of "reports" from consumers praising it, compared to the "reports" saying it did nothing and all someones' fish died anyways. As with any company touting their product the negative reports probably aren't long out of the round file and so obviously wouldn't count. From your quoted responses I just found it interesting that the company would admit in writing that they can't explain how their product works and the only evidence that they have that it does is feedback from some consumers......

And those instructions for use, priceless, ..... if it doesn't work.....use more.... and if that doesn't work....use more.....and if that doesn't work.....change some water..... :) What happens if you go over 5x? ...does it then officially become a poison? Once you get to 5x the dose...which pollutant is it that you are changing water to get rid of?

Mike

[ronrca]

would she be able to do a combination of #2 with prime and salt, along with #5 use some type of Instant Cycle product? The catch22 of not allowing ammonia/nitrates to build up is my concern in this situation. If the proper bacteria colonies are introduced some other way it might hasten the process so she doesnt have to stress the discus anymore than needed?

I'm kind of curious as to how fish respond those products, I have never used them and know people have had luck with them to cycle a tank without fish in it. Perhaps someone here has?


I see!

The build up of these levels will be kept under control via wc's. Not necessarily the best as the bio up not be able to 'build or 'grow' to handle the fish load. This is where prime helps out to detox the lvls. I wasnt very clear in explaining the double doses of Prime. Not only increase the volume per dose but also increase the frequency. This will relief the discus of the stress from these lvls.

Adding more bacteria. Excellant addition to help the cycle and will definitely as you put it 'hasten the process'! :thumbsup: The question is what is the most effective. Using established filters is very good however time is again a factor for the bacteria to 'transfer' to your permanent filter. Using established media and inside your filter is even better however this may or may not be an option sometimes.

Using products such as instant cycle! Not worth the money not to mention the effectiveness of it unless it be Biospira from which I have only heard the results. These products of 'bacteria inside a bottle' do not contain live bacteria necessary for nitrification for various reasons such as 02, temperatures, etc. What may be inside the bottle is bacteria that helps break down organics to facilitate ammonia creation (which is unnecessary in a fishless cycle btw) thus increasing ammonia lvls to 'kick' start the nitrification cycle. However in our case, these products will not be of benefit unless biospira.

[ronrca]

Hi Ron,

Those are interesting responses from Seachem.....the product works, but they aren't sure why, but they received enough reports from aquarium owners saying that it helped that it must be true. Now that is science at it's best.

It would be interesting to see the ratio of "reports" from consumers praising it, compared to the "reports" saying it did nothing and all someones' fish died anyways. As with any company touting their product the negative reports probably aren't long out of the round file and so obviously wouldn't count. From your quoted responses I just found it interesting that the company would admit in writing that they can't explain how their product works and the only evidence that they have that it does is feedback from some consumers......

And those instructions for use, priceless, ..... if it doesn't work.....use more.... and if that doesn't work....use more.....and if that doesn't work.....change some water..... :) What happens if you go over 5x? ...does it then officially become a poison? Once you get to 5x the dose...which pollutant is it that you are changing water to get rid of?

Mike :D Yep! Are there not many things that just can not be explained?

Seachem only claimed that they dont neseccarily know how the nitrite part works. They do know how the ammonia aspect does work however.
Also, I doubt that Seachem would blindly believe 'consumers' solely for their claims. I quite positively believe that they preform their own tests to produce and verify results. Its not only Prime that detoxs, I believe Amquel and perhaps others do as well.

Given my experiences and many others, its hard to deny that it does not work. Yes, there may be claims of it not working however how can one factor it down to solely prime being the cause. As you and I both know, there could be many factors attributing to the death of fish. It may be a single factor or it could also be many factors.

Regarding max dosage, how does one produce a calculation for dosing 1ppm ammonia? or 3ppm? The test kits first off are hardly accurate and then there are the various factors of ph and temp that also affect the toxicity of ammonia.

Just a few thoughts and really my opinion but good thinking on your part. ;)

[Alight]

Sheesh, the shear length of this thread would make me panic!!

My two cents---

Actually .25 ammonia, .25 nitrite is not exactly lethal. Fish in that water would probably not get sick at all, even if it was that way for a few days.

It seems that she measure her water immediately after she changed it and these levels were zero. I'll bet her test kit (like some of mine) was just not sensitive enough to read the nitrate levels, although they were still there. You wouldn't expect nitrate to start going up immediately after the change. It would take at least a day to add 3ppm of nitrate to the tank, even with 20 baby discus.

Rather than assume the biofilter is all dead, I'm assuming it's mostly alive, and that if she changes the water regularly (50% per day) she may never see ammonia and nitrite again, as the biofilter will grow enough to take care of the additional bioload, fairly quickly.

As to the cloudiness, I like the idea of running the hot magnum again for a short time.

My baby discus tank always verges on getting a bit cloudy before water changes, because of the debris from the shaved from frozen foods.

I think Marie's fish will be fine in this tank.

[Dissident]

Sheesh, the shear length of this thread would make me panic!!

My two cents---

Actually .25 ammonia, .25 nitrite is not exactly lethal. Fish in that water would probably not get sick at all, even if it was that way for a few days.

Sorry but you cant say that at all, .25 ammonia in her ph is toxic over time (if it gets to .5 between waterchanges it is extremely toxic), even .03 in a ph of 8.0 is toxic over time. The range for acceptable in a ph of 7.5 is .009, in a ph of 7.0 it is .01
Remember Ammonia toxicity is directly related to Ph
Nitrite is in acceptable levels.




Rather than assume the biofilter is all dead,

That is not an assumption. All of her readings prove it.

No one is trying to scare anyone. We all want to do what's best for the fish.


How about an update on how your little guys are doing and what route you are going.

[ronrca]

Any level other than 0 for ammonia/nitrite should be cause for concern and would indicate something isnt right. No one mentioned that the bio was dead rather inadequate in handling the bio load atm.

[Kindredspirit]

Sheesh, the shear length of this thread would make me panic!!


Ya think?? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_1.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Hey guys~

First off, Let me say I so appreciate everyone that responded to this thread! I have been away for a day... but I am back and I have read everything that was posted~

Here are my latest readings~as of 12noon today.. I have not done a wc as of yet~


Ammonia = 0

Nitrites = 0

Nitrates = 10


Please if you can tell me in 10 words or less what this tells you...

The water is a little less cloudy... I did put a Hydro Sponge in there yesterday~


Mike, Diss, you guys are awesome and I can not thank you enough for all your thoughts and posts...Ron... you too.. and Timbo... you left... and I totally understand~


I was told from two private parties to get BiroSpiro...and it would be fine~


More thoughts...??


Marie~:angel:

[pcsb23]

Marie, any time you've got readings of 0 on Am and NO2 (nitrItes) then don't worry!!

A reading of 10 on NitrAtes is ok.

Don'y know about BiroSpiro so can't comment.

Do your w/c and feed regime, measure again later if AM and NitrItes still 0 stop worrying!!!

Paul.

[Dissident]

:) :) :) That's how it should look :) 10ppm NitrAtes is perfect for a planted tank even ;)

Do your waterhchanges and still test before you do them if you read Amonnia=0 NitrIte=0 and Nitrate=X (if NitrAte is over 20 I would do more waterchanges) you will be in the clear if you get that for the next week.

The cloudyness will go away as the filter finishes up it's cycle. It is typical with mini-cycles or newly cycled tanks. I have had it happen when I added 30 rummynose tetras to my 65gal and the bio-filter couldn't handle the new load. It clear up shortly, I will clean a dirty filter sponge in the tank and then do a WC the next day and will clear it up almost instantly. Or just wait it out and keep up with normal WC.

But all in all your new readings are great news.:thumbsup:

[mikesmac]

Hi Marie,

Ten words or less? That's harder than a couple of pages:). But seriously...that's great if your readings stay there and your water clears up.. hope it stays that way for you. Sorry...I went a little over 10.

Mike

[Kindredspirit]

MikeMac~ Do i see a sense of humor? I knew you had one! j/k! All joking aside, I know you put a lot of effort into helping me and I really appreciate it a lot...You will run into people such as yourself that know so much and so want to help , and you have a lot to offer....Just don't take things to personally here and keep sharing and posting cuz we need you, Mikey! lol....

Most people will go over ten words, Mike, but some like me , do better with less! My readings are still the same and the water is clearing up a little in this 35-gal..



However, wanna help me with my other problem, Mike?? Probably not...but I will just put it out there ...


Diss~ thank you too as well.. and feel free to chime in, as Ryan says...to my new problem~


Since this is my Thread, I thought i would hi-jack it a bit~

....which is quite similiar...The Cloudy Tank Gods have it out for me! But I just got 10 new discus, and I have them in a new 55gal...and the water is cloudy too~

I got them on Wednesday, I think, put them in...Yesterday, Saturday... morning when i got up , the tank was cloudy...I then took a used funky Hydro Sponge from my established 55gal and put it in this tank~

Ammonia then was .25....I had the tank up for a week, with old sponges from other tanks....even half tank water in there from a wc as well...all readings were fine , before putting the new discus in~

And there was also, some used sponges from the other tanks that I had in there...The tank was ready to go, however, with me that doesn't seem to say much! lol...

I also found out today that the discus have a little ammonia burn as well, probably from the bags, as they were late in arriving from their wonderful experience with Fed Ex.....

I have done like two wc, today, added salt, Per Dan, and ......umm... thatz it! They are all acting fine and are so pretty!


...but the cloudiness is getting worse~ I need to test the parameters again in the morning..

Should I just keep doing what I am doing? Like before? I know that there are too many in this tank, but they are little and that is the way it is right now~

I wanna know if this is a common problem with people getting new fish? Cuz I thought both tanks were cycled and ready to go....I never seem to have fish problems... Only tank issues! lol!


Thanks Guys....



And the other little problem....I was doing a wc on my established 55gal, and I was not paying attention , as I was cleaning all the algae out. Well the Python tube thingy was still in the water, and before I knew I had done an almost 100% wc!! There wasnt much water left at all!

I thought I had done them in ( JACK!) ...but ...

And people do 100% wc a lot. I think. I filled it all back up the way I always do..Temp was matched...I am good at that ( do not say a word, Jack!) Splashing the water on top, and adding Prime...a little more than usual~ I usually do a 50% wc.. daily.. if that~

My poor fish were like trippin! They started swimming sideways and stuff~ I was scared. So I added salt...and they are okay now~

I wanted to know why they started to freak out? what if I decide to do 100% wc daily? And yes, I use tap water... that wont change~


So....Who wants to take this one?? Ten Words Or Less! J/k



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_5_141.gif

[RockRiverfish]

Hi Kindred,

With regards to your first ten word challenge.

Many changes over six weeks equals mini cycles and cloudiness.

That is exactly ten words (could actually be nine if I hyphenated mini-cycle), and I think it about sums it all up. I hope the tank continues to clear up.

I enjoyed the discussion about the claims that various companies make with regards to the "magical" abilities of there products. I am a firm believer in the KISS principle and "If it sounds to good to be true - It probably is".

Just thought I would add an article of interest regarding Amquel+ that I found posted on another forum. http://www.aquascienceresearch.com/AmQuel+2.doc This is a document, but you can get to the website by shortening the address to just include the .com portion. The direct link is at the very bottom of the page.

[Dissident]

10 words or less..... 2 questions si i will try to keep it to 20words: <- doesn't count ;)

bacterial bloom = Will go away not harmfull to fish (9words)

only do 100% WC with aged tap (100% WC will not help bacterial bloom) (14words srry oh well can't do it)

What is difference between tap Ph an tank Ph (important 2 know), also what is the Kh of your tap (might have high CO2 in your tap ageing will remove CO2 and stabalize the Ph) I will do 50% tap WC a lot and never have issues but that depends on your tap.

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/cloudywt.htm

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Rock~


You are too funny! Thanks...lol! I am glad you enjoyed some of the discussions even tho I was somewhat lost at times, but hey..... Yes...KISS, is my best friend at times~ I have heard good things about Amquel, I shall read the link...thank you so much!

Diss~

Bacterial Bloom...is not harmful but does mess with your parameters, yes? Speaking of which, I just tested my tap water, just for you Diss! And it is between , shytums... i forgot...lol....hold on....

oh, between 7.2 - 7.6...It was the lighter blue, but on its way to the darker blue....I know I know...hey..itz tough bein me at times! So...What does that tell you? All my tanks are pretty much 7.6...this is a good thing, yes?? You can have more than ten words on this one! This new kit I bought, is the one that I play Ms. Scientist with, test tubes and those colorful charts......I use to use the strips...I was KISS it, but was advised those went out with the dinosaurs! Soooooooo .... I got this Kit....at $35! I have already broke all the glass test tubes, as they flew out of a towel I had wrapped them in to dry, and flew onto our tile floor and shattered! Wasnt easy to find more...Why do they make them glass? Hella dumb~


Anyways....way over 10 words, eh??


Thanks guys !!! oh.... the point of this:... wow... I tested the parameters of the cloudy 55gal with my 10 discus in it and they are :

Ammonia = .25 ( not good cuz they have burn from shipping bags)

Nitrates = 10

Nitrites = 0

ph = 7.6


Okay...shouldnt i have Nitrites, if I have ammonia? or is that the dumb question of the day?? Will I ever get this down? lol!

It is not as cloudy, but still is...






Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_5_140.gif

[Dissident]

Thanks guys !!! oh.... the point of this:... wow... I tested the parameters of the cloudy 55gal with my 10 discus in it and they are :

Ammonia = .25 ( not good cuz they have burn from shipping bags)

Nitrates = 10

Nitrites = 0

ph = 7.6


Okay...shouldnt i have Nitrites, if I have ammonia? or is that the dumb question of the day?? Will I ever get this down? lol!

It is not as cloudy, but still is...


Whooo hoo no limitations but ill try to keep ot to 500words or less :) :D

Ph from tap to tank should be fine that is such a minor difference and unless you are doing 100% WC the Discus won't even notice.

The NH3 is my big concern now... what this is now telling us:
The bacteria that breaks down NH3 is not quite rebuilt yet so you are still reading the .25

The bacteria that breaks down NO2 is at a stage where it will keep up with the NH3 that is converted to NO2 which is why you are showing NO2=0. So the NO2 is getting converted quickly to NO3 which is a good thing.

As your biological filter re-establishes itself that .25 NH3 should start to drop... soon I hope.

You might want to consider taking some tank water to your LFS and have then test it for NH3/NO2/NO3 so you can make sure your test kits are upto par. Avoid the test strips at all costs, the bottled test kits are worlds better, Sera works well and are less inexpensive.


BTW have you tested your tap for ammonia?
Ammonia
Status: Unregulated - EPA has not established a maximum legal limit in tapwater for this contaminant.
Ammonia enters water from fertilizer runoff, leaching septic tanks, and erosion of natural deposits; it is also used as disinfectant and in numerous industrial processes. Potential health impacts associated with Ammonia include gastrointestinal or liver toxicity, neurotoxicity, reproductive toxicity, respiratory toxicity, respiratory toxicity, and skin sensitivity. Potential health impacts associated with Ammonia include gastrointestinal or liver toxicity, neurotoxicity, reproductive toxicity, respiratory toxicity, and skin sensitivity.

http://www.ewg.org/tapwater/contaminants/contaminant.php?contamcode=1003
CA is on the top of the list for # of people who have ammonia in their tap water. Read and follow relivant links and test your tap (once right out of the tap, and age some water (with prime) and test it after 24hrs).


<<EDIT>>
On a after thought, if you are not showing NH3 in other tanks thn it probably isn't a problem with your tap... but tap water changes from time to time. I would still check it out.

[Alight]

The short: daily water changes, keep testing, don't worry, be happy.


Again, the .25 ammonia is NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT, because she uses prime in her changes which will lock up the ammonia as it would be locked up if her pH was less than 7.0 (ammonium not ammonia). She has almost certainly a mini cycle going--NOT BECAUSE OF THE WATER CHANGES, but because of the additional bioload of the new fish that are beyond her current biofilter's capacity. However, if she does daily 40-50% water changes, because she had a good biofilter before the addition of the new fish, the filter will quickly grow to accomadate the new fish. Because she'll be doing daily water changes, the ammonia levels will be kept low, and the prime will lock up any ammonia present. I've done this dozens of times and have never had a sick fish. I test daily for weeks whenever I add new fish, not because of the ammonia, but because of the nitrites which are much more deadly.

Can water changes effect the cycle? Yes. The bacteria will grow more quickly if they have more ammonia---but the change will not CAUSE the cycle, it will only slow down the ending of the cycle. But, the minicycle will be over quickly, even with water changes, so why expose the fish to any unlocked ammonia? No reason at all---do the water changes.

I'm getting pretty sick of the salt myth for freshwater fish, by the way. Everyone says to add salt--WHY? The only situation where it is scientifically reasonable to add salt for freshwater fish (notice I'm not including brackish water fish in this) is when nitrites are present. I suspect that someone, along time ago noticed that sick fish got better when salt was added, almost certainly this was because there was nitrite in the water. There after, it became a legend that adding salt was good. There is no scientific reason to add salt for freshwater fish, and no tests that show it has a beneficial effect.

I never add salt (at least not for the past 20 years--I was initially in the salt camp like everyone else until I did a little scientific investigation 99 spent 15 years in that camp). The only fish sickness I have had in the past 20 years has been from parasites which the fish came with, and from a few toxic items I mistakenly added to my tank (like a new sponge filter).

She could certainly have ammonia in her tap water, but if she does, it is much more likely from the breakdown of the chloramine by the Prime or Amquel (whichever she choses to use), than from ammonia present free from in the water. Again, nothing to worry about. Her biofilter will eat the locked up ammonia, just like it eats the normal ammonia.

There was no proof her biofilter was dead at all. She had one reading that was slightly high, and one reading where her nitrates were zero, and this was right after a large water change, and before any fish were in the tank, so where would nitrates have come from? I stand by my original conclusion that her biofilter was not dead at all, just slightly inadequate. After the water change and with a light bioload, everything does indeed look like it should with nitrates being cranked out, just as I predicted. She will likely experience slightly elevated ammonia readings for week or so, and possibly slighly elevated nitrite readings, but these will be reduced by the water changes, and will gradually get lower and lower until they are gone.

I still think the the cloudiness is due to several reasons, including clogged sponges, possibly increased by small minicycles, and a certain food she is using. I recall she is using beef heart and blood worms. Both of these easily cloud the water. You almost have to clean the prefilter sponges after every meal to keep the water from being cloudy after these, unless you shut off the filters during feeding, and do a bottom vac after each meal. Daily 50% water changes are a must when using beef heart.

[Kindredspirit]

The NH3 is my big concern now... what this is now telling us:
The bacteria that breaks down NH3 is not quite rebuilt yet so you are still reading the .25
The bacteria that breaks down NO2 is at a stage where it will keep up with the NH3 that is converted to NO2 which is why you are showing NO2=0. So the NO2 is getting converted quickly to NO3 which is a good thing



Diss~


NH3? NO2? Okay....remember I deal with the troubled mind, not a chemist here....I assume they are Nitrates and Nitrites....which is which I have no clue! lol!!

I will test my tap for ammonia and be right back![/CENTER]

[Dissident]

NH3=Ammonia
NO2=NitrIte
NO3=NitrAte

Again i will elaborate on TAN (Toxic Ammonia for some people).
Ammonia test kits give their results in Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN) which is a combination of harmful unionised ammonia (NH3) and less dangerous ammonium (NH4). The ratio of ammonia to ammonium depends on the pH and temperature of the water sample.
TAN is more toxic in small amounts when:
High temperature (which we have in discus tanks)
Higher Ph

Granted .25 is not too high for some tanks but in her PH it is right on the line of Harmful and Toxic, and the high temp can compund it. However much prime can lock up no one knows. But even .03 in that Ph is harmful,l well out of the Toxic range at least.

Prime will help in binding TAN yes, but even in previous posts the rep stated that even 5xdosage with prime may not lock up all TAN.
Now I am of course willing to agree to the benifits of Prime and condeone the use of it in this case but it is as stated before, a band-aid. Instead of treating the semptoms we need to treat the problem and keep the fish as stress-free as possible.
I doubt anyone here would set up a new tank and throw a bunch of fish in it and cycle it with prime with the fish in it. We are giving Prime way too much credit.

Salt myth? Sure it could be, it may help reduce stress. It may help reduce the chances of bacteria/fungal infections while they are stressed, it may not. I invite anyone to set up several tanks and test it.



-------------Examples
Example One

Let’s say we have two tanks, Tank A and Tank B. Both tanks have a pH of 7.8 and a TAN of 1.0 part per million (ppm or milligrams per liter of water). Tank A has a temperature of 22 degrees Celsius (about 72 degrees Fahrenheit) and Tank B has a temperature of 26 C (about 79 F). Which tank has more of the toxic ammonia form (UIA)?

Tank B does because it has a higher temperature (remember, both have a pH of 7.8). About 2.8 percent of Tank A’s TAN is toxic ammonia, while Tank B has about 3.7 percent.

Example Two

Let’s say we have two other tanks, Tank C and Tank D. This time, both tanks have the same temperature, 26 C (about 79 F) and the same TAN, about 1.0 ppm. However, Tank C has a pH of about 7.0, while Tank D has a pH of about 8.0. Which tank has more toxic ammonia (UIA)?

Tank D does, because it has a higher pH (remember, both have a temperature of 26 degrees C). Tank C has about 0.6 percent toxic ammonia, while Tank D has about 5.7 percent toxic ammonia. Tank D has almost 10 times more toxic ammonia than Tank C!


-nothing is meant to scare you here ;) just so we can all learn something on a sunday

[Alight]

Everything you say about ammonia toxicity is correct. I use a table with all those factors on them, myself, to compute whether ammonia is toxic.

However, 0.25 at pH 7.6 ,FOR A SHORT TIME (4-12 hours), with prime or amquel added will not cause problems. Too many years of experience to convince me of anything else. The trick is to do the 40-50% water change to bring it down when the level gets that high, and keep it from getting that high again. In a cycled tank, with the filtration Marie has, the biofilter should respond and she should be able to go back to every other day water changes, or changing less water every day in less than a week.

As I have said before, I would test every day now, just before a water change and note down the levels in a note book for future reference when she wants to add fish in the future. I have done this and can give the numbers for what the mini cycles look like with the addition of almost any number of fish.
That's why I'm not worried much about the readings she's getting now.

What I actually do now is to build up a biofilter in a sponge filter placed in a bucket using the ammonia fishless cycling method before I add new fish, and add this sponge filter to my tank just before I add fish. I use sponge filters with multiple sponges on them (Oxygen Plus filters) so I can taper off the use of these filters taking out one sponge at a time every few days after I add the new fish, and eventually can remove the whole thing, and by doing this, I get absolutely no mini cycles now.

I think her feeding routine is causing the cloudiness, and may be causing the some of the additional ammonia and nitrite readings, as she has probably increased the feedings for the new fish, and since she is using a number of highly polluting foods, they may be collecting in her prefilters and sponge filters, clogging them with ammonia producing bits of debris.

I'm a bit skeptical of ammonia burns. As far as I know, ammonia at concentrations high enough to burn the skin should completely demolish the gills = dead fish. I suspect that most of these are physical injuries that may be made worse by the ammonia, and offer an opportunistic region for bacterial and fungal infections in a fish compromised by high ammonia.

Generally, lesions like these due to shipping will get better very quickly with just lots of clean, fresh water, no treatment is necessay.

Does salt reduce stress in freshwater fish?? How? The physiology of fresh water fish that allows them to keep higher sodium chloride concentrations in their blood than in the surrounding water is not compromised in any of the conditions I know about that are "stressful". In fact, higher salt concentrations in the water may be more stressful to these systems than lower, according to the studies I've seen.

Does salt cure fungus infections? Not according to the studies I've seen. Even most parasites (with a few exceptions) are less bothered by salt than freshwater fish.

If salt were "good" for freshwater fish, then why wouldn't it be good for freshwater snails? After all, snails also have more sodium chloride in their "blood" than there is in the water. Salt can actually kill some freshwater snails.

[ronrca]

You guys are bascily saying the same thing btw. Im not entirely sure what exactly is being disagreed upon. No one said the bio filter was 'dead' rather inadequate of handling the present bio load. Also needs to be aware of the effects and how to properly deal with the test results. Any readings other than 0 is cause for concern. The larger the valve, the bigger the concern.

Regarding salt, it has its place regarding medicating. I have read that it helps relief omsoregulation when fish are distressed. If unsure the benefits in using salt or the applications, perhaps more research helps. I also have read that salt helps more with nitrite lvls than ammonia. Perhaps 'salt' shouldnt necessarily be termed as a 'medication'.

[Kindredspirit]

You guys, thanks so much for all the wonderful information here!

Diss...I hope you keep posting all you know....to know a fraction of that would be pretty cool!


Alight~ What can I say?? lol....Thank you, Sir~


Ron....Still here? lol........my tanks are still a little cloudy. Seems all I am doing lately, is

wc, wc, test, wc, feed, test, wc ,wc test, test....


So need a life, ya think?http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_134.gif


I will be back tomorrow with all new readings...hopefully upon waking I shall have crystal clear tanks?? This will happen on a dime tho, yes?


one day in Marie's... not to distance future.....How does Timbo say it?

'I see crystal clear tanks in your future, Marie'



We Shall See~


Marie~

[Dave C]

I'm a little late in the game but there might be other posters that read this after having a bacterial bloom so I thought it was worth jumping in...

It is not at all unnatural for your nitrate level to read 0. It doesn't necessarily mean your filter is uncycled. Over the years I have many tanks that never registered nitrates. One likely reason is because I changed a lot of water daily. Another might be the stocking density & feeding regimen. But the point is that 0 nitrates does not, in of itself, mean your filter is uncycled. Especially when you previously had a nitrate reading of 10. That does mean that your filter is doing something as there would never be nitrates in a completely uncycled filter.

Another point I wanted to make was the nitrite reading drop from 10 to 0 isn't unnatural either... part of it depends on the exact moment the readings were taken, before & after the w/c. If the nitrite & nitrate readings were 10 prior to the w/c that indicates that your filter was working but could not keep up. Then you replace 50% of the water so the nitrites drop to 5. The filter is then capable of keeping up so the remaining nitrites are consumed and drop to zero. It could happen, though you would expect to see some nitrates.

As for the solution to this problem. If you have cycled media that's obviously the best way to go. Failing that I would do daily 50% w/c, which most Discus keepers on this forum are recommended to do regardless. That would probably keep the levels low enough right there given that the filter is working to a degree. I see no advantage at all of using salt. Many talk about how it aids in osmotic regulation but I've never seen evidence of that. And Prime is an excellent bandaid to get you through this stage. I've had good success with it in the past and have never seen a negative with using it. While it certainly is a bandaid the only real solution to the problem is TIME and a bandaid that buys you time is exactly what you need.

[pcsb23]

As for the solution to this problem. If you have cycled media that's obviously the best way to go. Failing that I would do daily 50% w/c, which most Discus keepers on this forum are recommended to do regardless. That would probably keep the levels low enough right there given that the filter is working to a degree. I see no advantage at all of using salt. Many talk about how it aids in osmotic regulation but I've never seen evidence of that. And Prime is an excellent bandaid to get you through this stage. I've had good success with it in the past and have never seen a negative with using it. While it certainly is a bandaid the only real solution to the problem is TIME and a bandaid that buys you time is exactly what you need.

Dave, agree with what you are saying, just thought I'd share what I believe the reason to be for using salt when Nitrites are in the tank, from what I can remember the blood will take up the chloride instead of the nitrite, I believe that nitrite adversly affects the red blood cells (can't remember all the details) whereas the chloride doesn't. Another band aid in effect.
hth,
Paul.

[ronrca]

I see no advantage at all of using salt. Many talk about how it aids in osmotic regulation but I've never seen evidence of that. What evidence are you looking for though? I did a post regarding osmoregulation from research I did.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=46034

Good points though. Like you mention, time is the factor atm and in order to relieve the discus of the stress, these 'bandages' are necessary to tie over the discus until the problem is resolved. ;)


Seems all I am doing lately, is

wc, wc, test, wc, feed, test, wc ,wc test, test....


Patience Marie! The life of a fish keeper summed up! lol ;)

[Kindredspirit]

I'm a little late in the game but there might be other posters that read this after having a bacterial bloom so I thought it was worth jumping in...

It is not at all unnatural for your nitrate level to read 0. It doesn't necessarily mean your filter is uncycled. Over the years I have many tanks that never registered nitrates. One likely reason is because I changed a lot of water daily. Another might be the stocking density & feeding regimen. But the point is that 0 nitrates does not, in of itself, mean your filter is uncycled. Especially when you previously had a nitrate reading of 10. That does mean that your filter is doing something as there would never be nitrates in a completely uncycled filter.

Another point I wanted to make was the nitrite reading drop from 10 to 0 isn't unnatural either... part of it depends on the exact moment the readings were taken, before & after the w/c. If the nitrite & nitrate readings were 10 prior to the w/c that indicates that your filter was working but could not keep up. Then you replace 50% of the water so the nitrites drop to 5. The filter is then capable of keeping up so the remaining nitrites are consumed and drop to zero. It could happen, though you would expect to see some nitrates.

As for the solution to this problem. If you have cycled media that's obviously the best way to go. Failing that I would do daily 50% w/c, which most Discus keepers on this forum are recommended to do regardless. That would probably keep the levels low enough right there given that the filter is working to a degree. I see no advantage at all of using salt. Many talk about how it aids in osmotic regulation but I've never seen evidence of that. And Prime is an excellent bandaid to get you through this stage. I've had good success with it in the past and have never seen a negative with using it. While it certainly is a bandaid the only real solution to the problem is TIME and a bandaid that buys you time is exactly what you need.








do not even think of offering any advice where i am concerned~

[Kindredspirit]

Ron~ I am learning patience make no mistake about that~



Marie~

[Dissident]

Ron~ I am learning patience make no mistake about that~
Marie~

Patience is the key. Too often people panic and do more damage than good by dumping tons of whatever into their tank.
I think we all agree that your TAN is not at a level that is cause for panic, just concern, and worth monitoring.
Keep doing what you have been doing, keep a close eye on the little guys hopefully they are starting to improve and keep us upto date on their progress.

[mikesmac]

Hi Marie,

This is a little slow in getting posted.... but in reference to your unexpected larger than usual water change...... A long time ago I used to do water changes straight out of the faucet, except I put it into buckets first to get the temp perfect, adjust for PH, use conditioners to remove the chlorine....and then would pour it in the tanks. When doing large percentage water changes, even though it was showing as exactly the same temp, and PH, when I poured it into the tank the discus would spas out and dart all over smashing into the glass or whatever was in their way, swim in circles..same thing it sounds like yours were doing. Needles to say it was distressing to me to see this occur and was obviously distressing to the Discus. The thing that became obvious to me was that the water...although testing the same, had something that was making the discus want to get out of it as soon as I'd put it in. What it was...I don't know. Difference in disolved gases because of mixing hot and cold water to get the temp right?, ...acid concentration not fully mixed in or dissolved? ..chlorine not really being neutralized by the conditioner? All I know is that I have never had my Discus do this since I began "aging" ...letting the water sit for at least 24 hrs before using it for water changes. I know you said you couldn't do this...don't know why...extra tank.....rubbermaid garbage can....plastic storage bins... a heater and an air stone. Yeah it takes up some space, but it's something that should be done. This is also one of the reasons that I doubt the efficacy of the conditioners. Watch your Discus spas out because of nice new fresh water a few times and you'll start wondering too if the conditioner is actually doing anything.

The other thing that I wanted to mention was that I hoped it was understood that a tank doesn't stay cycled witout any fish in it. I think in regards to both of your new tanks you said that you used sponges or media from established tanks when you set them up.... "and the water was clear for a week waiting for the fish to arrive". I don't know how long it takes for all of the bacteria to die off without a food supply (fish waste) but they were probably at least significantly reduced if the tanks were running with no inhabitants for a while. This is why I mentioned before that I always keep extra filters running on established tanks, I guess I should have said "populated" established tanks, until ready to put fish into a new tank because it's not really the tank you are cycling, it's the filter. It was mentioned again about feeding the filters with ammonia....again I don't trust this method because of the results I experienced. With any ammonia I've tested just a drop in a quart of water will make the PH skyrocket, much less the amount needed to get the recommended 5 ppm that is supposedly used to "fishless cycle tanks". This is easy to verify with any PH test kit.

Sorry I went over 10 words again,

Mike

[Tad]

I'm a little late in the game but there might be other posters that read this after having a bacterial bloom so I thought it was worth jumping in...

It is not at all unnatural for your nitrate level to read 0. It doesn't necessarily mean your filter is uncycled. Over the years I have many tanks that never registered nitrates. One likely reason is because I changed a lot of water daily. Another might be the stocking density & feeding regimen. But the point is that 0 nitrates does not, in of itself, mean your filter is uncycled. Especially when you previously had a nitrate reading of 10. That does mean that your filter is doing something as there would never be nitrates in a completely uncycled filter.

Another point I wanted to make was the nitrite reading drop from 10 to 0 isn't unnatural either... part of it depends on the exact moment the readings were taken, before & after the w/c. If the nitrite & nitrate readings were 10 prior to the w/c that indicates that your filter was working but could not keep up. Then you replace 50% of the water so the nitrites drop to 5. The filter is then capable of keeping up so the remaining nitrites are consumed and drop to zero. It could happen, though you would expect to see some nitrates.

As for the solution to this problem. If you have cycled media that's obviously the best way to go. Failing that I would do daily 50% w/c, which most Discus keepers on this forum are recommended to do regardless. That would probably keep the levels low enough right there given that the filter is working to a degree. I see no advantage at all of using salt. Many talk about how it aids in osmotic regulation but I've never seen evidence of that. And Prime is an excellent bandaid to get you through this stage. I've had good success with it in the past and have never seen a negative with using it. While it certainly is a bandaid the only real solution to the problem is TIME and a bandaid that buys you time is exactly what you need.

Great post Dave,
I agree "Time" is the best cure, I once had a similar situation while setting up my 135. I used the fishless cycling method and thought I had enough filtration established for my desired fish load. Boom! bacterial bloom evident by cloudiness, I talked to Cary and he told me to just do 20 percent WCs everyother day and it will clear up and no harm to fish. Worked!!!!!

regards,
Tad

[Elcid]

Ammonia readings a result of chloroamine converted by ur conditioner.

http://www.koi.com.my/forum/KOI_Talk_C1/Pond_Water_Quality_F3/chloramine_in_Singapore_water_P33514/

[Alight]

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/message_board/messages/27480/41584.html?1116433522

Just to put an alternative explanation of the use of salt for freshwater fish on the board for those who want the detailed explanation for NOT using it indiscriminantly.

[pcsb23]

Thats a very interesting article, clearly written and it seems technically accurate.

Marie may need to use salt here though to mitigate the Nitrites that may form.

You are dead right it should not be used indiscriminantly like any med or treatment!
All the best,
Paul.

[ronrca]

Ammonia readings a result of chloroamine converted by ur conditioner.

http://www.koi.com.my/forum/KOI_Talk_C1/Pond_Water_Quality_F3/chloramine_in_Singapore_water_P33514/

Very good point however do we know if the tap has chloramines or just chlorine.

[Elcid]

It didn't make sense to me that overnight her ammonia fell to zero and then she'd change the water and bang an ammonia reading? OMG I exceeded the 10 word limit!

[White Worm]

Its beyond my level here but what the hell,,,,, has anyone experienced erroneous ammonia levels when using prime? Especially at 2x, 3x dose? I have and Marie changes water alot and from tap I believe. She probably adds prime every time also,,,,so,,,,lots of prime,,,less than 24 hours,,,,more prime,,,,no time for it to go away,,,, erroneous ammonia reading?? Just asking some questions here, so dont slit my throat ok?

[ronrca]

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/message_board/messages/27480/41584.html?1116433522

Just to put an alternative explanation of the use of salt for freshwater fish on the board for those who want the detailed explanation for NOT using it indiscriminantly.

Nice article! Lots of reading and some excellant points. One however Id like to explore a little and that is in regard to the osmoregulation. The article mentions that

The statement that "salt helps fish regulate their osmotic balance" is patently rediculous! All fish are different in this regard, depending on where they live. Some species are native to "soft water/low dissolved solids" habitats while others inhabit hard and alkaline biotopes with high salt concentrations inherant in the water. The species inhabiting these very different environments have developed metabolic processes which take advantage of the specific chemistry of that water. To add salt in the misguided attempt to "help regulate osmotic balance" may actually upset that very balance you are erroneously trying to "help". Your fish are much better served by leaving them alone and allowing them to regulate their own osmotic balance; something they have been doing without your help for thousands of years.


Where can I find info regarding that different fish have developed unquie metabolic processes? Or is this a given and something assumed?


It didn't make sense to me that overnight her ammonia fell to zero and then she'd change the water and bang an ammonia reading? OMG I exceeded the 10 word limit! Good catch! Perhaps Marie can give us a better and after wc test of ammonia and nitrite!

[Dave C]

It seems intuitive that different fish have developed different processes (metabolic or not) to deal with the different conditions that they find themselves in don't you think? What I don't understand, nor did I understand it from the link you posted, is why an increase in salt helps relieve osmotic stress of the fish. That would imply that they are constantly under some kind of stress just existing and would be better suited to water conditions with more salt, whereas marine fish would be better suited to water with less salt. It doesn't make sense. What does make sense is that the fish are perfectly suited to the type of water they are in and adding salt can only irritate them and throw off their normal systems of coping.

I've never had problems adding salt to my tanks, but I've only done it when the fish seem to have skin irritations of some sort. I don't know how I would recognize a need for osmotic regulation, how I would know if salt was working and how I would know when I could stop adding salt. Nor do I understand why we would add uniodized table salt rather then marine salt. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that I find the evidence insufficient to make the kind of claims being made.

[Dissident]

Its beyond my level here but what the hell,,,,, has anyone experienced erroneous ammonia levels when using prime? Especially at 2x, 3x dose? I have and Marie changes water alot and from tap I believe. She probably adds prime every time also,,,,so,,,,lots of prime,,,less than 24 hours,,,,more prime,,,,no time for it to go away,,,, erroneous ammonia reading?? Just asking some questions here, so dont slit my throat ok?

According to SeaChem the ammonia (TAN) is still in the tank, it is bound so that it is not toxic to your fish. They also state that the bound NH3/4 will still pass through the filter to be broken down to NO2 (also binds that to be non-toxic) and then down to NO3 to be removed by water changes. The bound elements should (according to them again) still be able to be used to establish a good bio-filter. (not that anyone here would cycle a tank that way nor do they claim that it should be used in that fashion).
The bound TAN will still show up on tests which they call 'erroneous' readings, but it is still there.

To find out if your tap has chlorine/chloramines you can call your DPW or check their website. Here in Milwaukee we are lucky that they don't use either, they went to an ozone system quite a few years back and us aquarium keepers love them for it.

[Kindredspirit]

Patience is the key. Too often people panic and do more damage than good by dumping tons of whatever into their tank.
I think we all agree that your TAN is not at a level that is cause for panic, just concern, and worth monitoring.
Keep doing what you have been doing, keep a close eye on the little guys hopefully they are starting to improve and keep us upto date on their progress.


Hey Diss~

Upgrade here...I tested my water this morning...

Ammonia = 0
NitrItes = 0
NitrAtes = 10


Still cloudy...but fish seem happy! I am not...lol!


Marie~

[Kindredspirit]

Very good point however do we know if the tap has chloramines or just chlorine.



Good article....I have not used salt in this tank...the 30... I did test my tap water this morning, however...


pH= 7.6

NitrAtes= 5.0

Ammonia= 0

NitrItes= 0

Not sure what this will tell you boys!


Marie~

[Kindredspirit]

Marie may need to use salt here though to mitigate the Nitrites that may form.




I trust you guys will let me know?



Marie~:angel: [/CENTER]

[Kindredspirit]

It didn't make sense to me that overnight her ammonia fell to zero and then she'd change the water and bang an ammonia reading? OMG I exceeded the 10 word limit!



Funny El!

Okay...so it doesnt make sense to you? What does it tell you? Cuz, quite honestly you boys lost me like 4 pages ago!


I am just pluggin along here~


Marie~:o

[Kindredspirit]

This is why I mentioned before that I always keep extra filters running on established tanks, I guess I should have said "populated" established tanks, until ready to put fish into a new tank because it's not really the tank you are cycling, it's the filter



MikeM~

I always keep extra filters on established tanks as well... That is precisely what I did for both tanks...I pulled sponges out of established tanks and put then in/on the new ones!....


I did feed flake food to the empty 30gal tank , until we went to Cliff's, and he gave us sponges...

But I did forget completely to feed the empty 55gal, tank , waiting for Dan's discus~

Is this what I did wrong?? But the 30gal is still cloudy with funky parameters up and down~

ya know I was joking about that 10 words or less....that is totally impossible for you experts..., El, Al, Diss, Ron, Mike, Paul!!! and.. o.k.a.y. Me.. even tho i am or never will be an expert!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_9.gif

[traco]

Okay, I had put a question on another thread but would like to ask here also, if it's okay? What about Purigen put into the HOB? I realize that this product should not be used as an alternative to doing daily water changes but is it okay to use it along with your daily w/c and maintenance?

Would something like that help Marie's cloudiness in her tank? Anyone use this?

[RockRiverfish]

One word of warning with regards to the information provided by local water departments. Treatment methods vary according to seasonal changes in the source water, periodical maintenance of equipment, as well as through changes in technology. It is important to test tap water periodically, as levels of chlorine/chloramine, phosphate, nitrate, ph, etc can and do change.

Dissident - I am not trying to be disrespectful, but I am curious who provided the information that Milwaukee stopped using chlorine. I lived in Milwaukee for 35 years (20 as a fish hobbiest). I had heard that they added ozone as a primary disinfectant, but believe they still use chlorine also. There website indicates that "The chlorine system is used to provide the necessary chloramine residual in finished water. It is also available as a backup primary disinfectant to ozone."
http://www.mpw.net/Pages/WaterWorks.html#treatment

This is also indicated in the finished water quality analysis "Chlorine residual = .75mg/L"
http://www.mpw.net/Pages/water/docs/2005GP.pdf

[Elcid]

Hi Marie:

I know what ur feeling something like "Don't put that in my drink, I need to drive home". :D

Cloudy water isn't bad by itself but it could turn bad, so be watchful. Ur fish are your best indicator. The amount of thought and effort you put in most ppl don't even come close and that's why ur fish are doing fine and also why u get so much ADVISE

The reasons don't matter really, stick to the basics and ur problems should go away.

HTH
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie:

The amount of thought and effort you put in most ppl don't even come close and that's why ur fish are doing fine and also why u get so much ADVISE

HTH
Sandeep


You hope this helps?


Sandeep, More Than You Could Possibly Know~

What you said, just made my day and the morning didnt start off too well~



Thank You~

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif


and yes, all 16 discus are perfectly happy living in England!

[Dissident]

One word of warning with regards to the information provided by local water departments. Treatment methods vary according to seasonal changes in the source water, periodical maintenance of equipment, as well as through changes in technology. It is important to test tap water periodically, as levels of chlorine/chloramine, phosphate, nitrate, ph, etc can and do change.

Dissident - I am not trying to be disrespectful, but I am curious who provided the information that Milwaukee stopped using chlorine. I lived in Milwaukee for 35 years (20 as a fish hobbiest). I had heard that they added ozone as a primary disinfectant, but believe they still use chlorine also. There website indicates that "The chlorine system is used to provide the necessary chloramine residual in finished water. It is also available as a backup primary disinfectant to ozone."
http://www.mpw.net/Pages/WaterWorks.html#treatment

This is also indicated in the finished water quality analysis "Chlorine residual = .75mg/L"
http://www.mpw.net/Pages/water/docs/2005GP.pdf

I should have been more spacific, they stoped using chlorine as their _primary_ disfectant. Much better then chlorine/chloramine (chloramine is some nasty stuff for fish-keepers). In water treatments that use chlorine 10ppm has to be maintained to kill some bacteria, not that you get 10ppm out of the tap in those places, i would sure hope not at least ;) Yes chlorine is used as a secondary disfectant.

"Ozone replaced chlorine as the primary disinfectant when ozone systems were installed at both plants in 1998. Ozone destroys illness-causing microorganisms, controls taste and odor, and reduces chlorinated disinfection byproducts. With ozone in place, the Water Works is poised to comply with upcoming stringent regulations. Ozone is applied to raw water before coagulation. The ozonated water then follows the conventional treatment train of coagulation, sedimentation and filtration."

From link provided and as you stated, didn't mean to cause any confusion, and no dissrespect taken :p

[ronrca]

It seems intuitive that different fish have developed different processes (metabolic or not) to deal with the different conditions that they find themselves in don't you think? What I don't understand, nor did I understand it from the link you posted, is why an increase in salt helps relieve osmotic stress of the fish. That would imply that they are constantly under some kind of stress just existing and would be better suited to water conditions with more salt, whereas marine fish would be better suited to water with less salt. It doesn't make sense. What does make sense is that the fish are perfectly suited to the type of water they are in and adding salt can only irritate them and throw off their normal systems of coping.

I've never had problems adding salt to my tanks, but I've only done it when the fish seem to have skin irritations of some sort. I don't know how I would recognize a need for osmotic regulation, how I would know if salt was working and how I would know when I could stop adding salt. Nor do I understand why we would add uniodized table salt rather then marine salt. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that I find the evidence insufficient to make the kind of claims being made.

Rather than contining here, I responded in the 'Water hardness and how is affects fish' thread!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=46034

Marie,
The readings look good so far. Continue to measure them daily and continue with your wc's. It should clear up soon. ;)

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Ron!:angel:

[Timbo]

I'm a little late in the game but there might be other posters that read this after having a bacterial bloom so I thought it was worth jumping in...

It is not at all unnatural for your nitrate level to read 0. It doesn't necessarily mean your filter is uncycled. Over the years I have many tanks that never registered nitrates. One likely reason is because I changed a lot of water daily. Another might be the stocking density & feeding regimen. But the point is that 0 nitrates does not, in of itself, mean your filter is uncycled. Especially when you previously had a nitrate reading of 10. That does mean that your filter is doing something as there would never be nitrates in a completely uncycled filter.

Another point I wanted to make was the nitrite reading drop from 10 to 0 isn't unnatural either... part of it depends on the exact moment the readings were taken, before & after the w/c. If the nitrite & nitrate readings were 10 prior to the w/c that indicates that your filter was working but could not keep up. Then you replace 50% of the water so the nitrites drop to 5. The filter is then capable of keeping up so the remaining nitrites are consumed and drop to zero. It could happen, though you would expect to see some nitrates.

As for the solution to this problem. If you have cycled media that's obviously the best way to go. Failing that I would do daily 50% w/c, which most Discus keepers on this forum are recommended to do regardless. That would probably keep the levels low enough right there given that the filter is working to a degree. I see no advantage at all of using salt. Many talk about how it aids in osmotic regulation but I've never seen evidence of that. And Prime is an excellent bandaid to get you through this stage. I've had good success with it in the past and have never seen a negative with using it. While it certainly is a bandaid the only real solution to the problem is TIME and a bandaid that buys you time is exactly what you need.

excellent advice there!