For Elcid "Cryptobia"

[Tad]

Elcid,
as per your request:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=42165

Tad

[Elcid]

Thanks for the link, I have read that thread before but not the last post. It's great that you managed to heal many of ur fish. Did you ever get a lab test done after the treatment to see if you were successful in eradicating Cryptobia from ur fish? Or is it just at a level where ur fish are not effected?

[Tiger Tropicals]

Thanks for the link, I have read that thread before but not the last post. It's great that you managed to heal many of ur fish. Did you ever get a lab test done after the treatment to see if you were successful in eradicating Cryptobia from ur fish? Or is it just at a level where ur fish are not effected?
if i may

I have heard from a friend who had this problem, that QUANINE SULPHATE maybe of some value but its a dangerous drug and must be dosed with exact specifications. These exotic diseases are creeping into worldwide populations of discus fish. I found it interesting that his fry were viable. These granulomas are there from a very early age as Cryptobia is present as a pathogen in the water and internally in the parent fish. INMHO..once you have it you will always have it. Fish with this disease dont usually live past a year, and about 9 months out or even earlier begin to crash. They usual have massive internal bleeding as a result of these nodules and granulomas explodeing and releasing the BUG....Fish and Wildlife here in America needs to monitor the importation of discus fish inmho..that health certificate issued in asian countries is simply a formality..inmho all fish should have lab studies done before being shipped to worldwide venues..this would put the exporters in asia on notice that shipping infected fish is not very COOL. It does present a big problem for the hobby in general..

Francine

[oodi]

Hi Francine,

As Tad's "better" half :D ... let me add that we had all the affected fish for 2 to 3 years or more, before they showed any symptoms of anything. Therefore, I'm curious about your comment regarding lifespan. Could you please elaborate more? Are you speaking in terms of an infected juvenile?

Also, could you give more info on Quanine Sulphate, and is it readily available?

Thanks,

Judi
:)

[jeep]

Just for the record, that was Tad's MUCH better half :p :D

[Tiger Tropicals]

Hi Francine,

As Tad's "better" half :D ... let me add that we had all the affected fish for 2 to 3 years or more, before they showed any symptoms of anything. Therefore, I'm curious about your comment regarding lifespan. Could you please elaborate more? Are you speaking in terms of an infected juvenile?

Also, could you give more info on Quanine Sulphate, and is it readily available?

Thanks,

Judi
:)
Like you stated..Your fish that you had for a long time only became infected after the introduction of new fish as i recall. If young fish are exposed yes, they will not live a long life from what i have read and observed. the QS is very dangerous and doesnt heal the granulomas etc. They are a time bomb.
Like your vet stated, many organs were infected and massive damage had already been done. Cryptobia is a cold water bug from what i understand, many discus houses breed koi etc. Since really once fish have it, its is great hardship to deal with as it will continue to pop up when least expected.I wish Fish and Wildlife would not allow discus fish into our country without proper examination. The intertesing part is that fish with this problem also exhibit many other illness. I dont like it at all.
ITs a catch 22, because on the one hand you need variety of strains, but to obtain them you must import fish from asia.

Here is my best advice

When bringing in new brrod stock..isolate them for their entire life
have safe room where your healthy fish live and have import room..
never mix them ever. After u get a number of 1inch fish that u feel will be new lines for your adventure..Destroy the adults and get the babies tested..If the fish are very young you maybe able to out run the disease.. Test these babies at 1 inch for signs of disease..if they prove to be clean..then make import room secondary safe room. One must test these potential breeders at least once every 6 weeks for at least 6 months ..DO NOT BRING IN ANY MORE FISH INTO THIS SECONDARY ROOM.
If vet finds no granulomas or other cycsts then you may proceed with them as breeders. After the initial 6 month quarantine period..You may begin raising them up if all is clean..If even one fish is found to have the granulomas etc..youve wasted a whole bunch of time..Destroy all the fish
QTing fish for 2 weeks is just a facade of hope . Many of these diseases have life cycles much longer and much more complex. Never mix healthy fish with imports. Its just to much of a heartache..
INMHO
QS will put the young fish down on the bottom of the tank..a percentage may die..but if caught early enough u may have some luck if they are still strong and not skinny
Over the years i have had to bring in some imports for out crossing purposes, i learned the hard way and so developed this routine to safe guard my beauties from ever going threw such stress again..live and learn
Francine

[Tad]

Francine,
We never did a secondary lab testing on our infected fish...I felt it was a total waste of money and time...Your absolutely correct in your statement that once infected its best to kill off the infected as they are never going to be worthwhile to keep for breeding purposes etc IMO...

I strongly considered culling the whole batch of infected fish but wanted to see what the long term issues would be....interesting not all the fish break out at the same time but months pass before the cryptobia surfaces for the eyes to see...once signs and symptoms appear its a pretty quick death as the fish become emaciated, and the gill become swollen.

Im of the opinion that Cryptobia is more prevalant then most would believe or even suspect...lots of signs and symptoms that people post on the forum in the disease section are similar to the signs and symptoms of Cryptobia. For this reason its hard to diagnose Cryptobia short of a full lab report and necropsy IMO...

Where is this problem coming from? I have heard many theories, but this problem is quite prevalant in the Tilapia industry in Africa....I have also heard of other sources in Asian but not confirmed...

This problem is going to become even a bigger problem in the future..I dont want to sound doomsday but that Is my opinion and only that...

As the result of the cryptobia, I have not added any fish into my collection and will not and have no intentions for the future....I do have uninfected fish IMO that have been kept isolated for the last couple of years and continue to spawn and produce viable offspring....

Basically this has been a hearbreak for Judi and I to see two tanks of our favorite discus succumb to an uncurable disease...

regards,
Tad


OBTW: Jeep I saw your comment :p

[jeep]

OBTW: Jeep I saw your comment :p

I love you too buddy :kiss: :D

[Elcid]

Those were some VERY HUGE discus you sent to the lab! Did you grow them from small size? It's quite disheartening to see all the hard work end in this way. U old timers come back and help us keep our fish alive and grow them Big like that!

[Tad]

Elcid,
I culled all of my domestics except two snakeskins that I had picked up from Cliff and were never cross contaminated, (they were in a separate tank as a breeding pair :) ), the largest of the fish I culled was probably 6.5 inches a fish we named "Blue" :fish: He was our first discus we ever owned and grew to be quite impressive. The others in the tank were predominately fish from Cary which we grew out from nickel size (about 2.5 years old), most of them were 5-6" in size (approximately 24 fish). The others were some ghost and alenquer x goldens from my good friend Crimsom Cross (which I had for over 3 years), and some Red melons from FCDiscus (I had for over a year)..I remember it being a trying day but it was the right thing to do. My domestic tank was cross contaminated due to my stupidity :o with a wild infected (which I did not know was infected at the time) fish which I moved into my domestic tank due to aggressiveness.. The only fish that I kept and medicated with the dimetridazole were my wilds of which 4 didnt make it through the medications and subsequently 4 others have perished in the last 7-8 months. Out of my wild tank I still maintain 6 specimens. I still have a tank with Heckels which were in a QT tank at the time of the outbreak and have never been cross contaminated. I still maintain a pair which consist of a Curipera and a Red Snake which have had successful spawns in the last 6 months (well kinda successful as Dad ate the last batch LOL)....And I stand corrected as I did add 8 Blue covers last summer to a grow out tank and they are approaching breeding age and maturity :). My Altums are all healthy as they have never been cross contaminated and need to be moved to a planted tank as they are getting HUGE!!!!!!!!! :D

Regards,
Tad

[Elcid]

Hi Tad:

Thanks for sharing ur story....It's good that u never gave up.....That's the sign of a true discus hobbiest :)....Recently, a couple of my smaller discus in my big tank were looking thin, so I moved one of my pairs to clear the 20 gallon I have to the big tank and decided to treat the small ones in the smaller tank. As I was taking care of the small ones the pair was upto no good in the big tank chasing my other fish around. Then 2 of my best fish in the big tank stop eating, hiding behind the sponge....There I was trying to get my runts back up to speed and now my best fish not eating! Yikes....I moved the pair back to the small tank and treated the big tank, 1st for bacteria with Cephalexin, then for flagilites with metronitrazole and finally again back to normal after 2 wks!

You know I've read a lot of ur old posts but of course without pics. I don't know what's Jeep upto with his comment don't start a FIGHT! :P

thanks,
Sandeep

[Tad]

Hi Tad:

I don't know what's Jeep upto with his comment don't start a FIGHT! :P

thanks,
Sandeep

Sandeep,
Jeep is one of my good friends, hes just trying to get even for the time I gave him a "Melvin" :D ,


regards,
Tad

[Elcid]

I was just joking about ur private joke! Don't think anything of it! What's a Melvin?

[Tad]

:D

[jeep]

Sandeep, now he's messing with you!! ;) And he always looks so innocent...

[Tiger Tropicals]

:D
if i may

Of course its either cry or laugh. Both may bring pain. Or maybe we should not laugh or cry. Just observe what is happening, and act when the time is right. These diseases of discus fish are all the more challengeing because they test our personalities and stamina. We all put a lot of time and money and energy into our fish from the guy or gal who just has one tank, to megaplexs of pipes and pumps and heaters and filters. Importers and vast boxes of fish. I have found much help studying carefully these various diseases and by reading everything i can about them. Just like the ability now of bacterias etc to morph and become immune to antibiotics ( new staff varities ), one has the feeling that disease is lurking everywhere. Paranoia sets in and the mind and eyes are filled with fear. Let us have some hope . That even though many discus populations are infected worldwide, there is hope. Recently a importer friend of mine said the fish in certain asian establishments are comeing in pretty clean. Breeders in asia have found some way of cleaning up their facilities. One idea is to bring the water temp down into the low 70s, this seems to stop the outbreak very quickly. They do not feed the fish during this 2 week period. The fish because they are in low temp water go into a stasis and dont need to eat. It also stops nutrients from getting to the bugs. Which in many cases breaks the life cycle of what ever it really is. While the fish are in this low temp water. They clean and sterlize all thier equiptment. Then after two weeks ..they introduce the fish back into their normal tanks and raise the water temp back up over a few days time to 82 and begin offerings of very lite food with normal water changes..In asia they are not likely to send their fish to a lab. Some of the more educated breeders have microscopes and know what to do and how to do it. Are there completly disease free fish, in isolated cases just like in human populations. Its nature at its best. We cant escape this factor in all life forms. Birth life decay and death. If one as a discus nut can understand that this is the way it is , and take heart and go with the flow, then one can have discus all their lives come hell or hi water..
Francine

[Tad]

sorry for waning :) ,
I agree paranoia about disease can be disheartening to the best of hobbyist to say the least...but it also shows the research and knowledge that has be done and acknowledged as there will always be something new to deal with ,

regards,
Tad

[satty]

For those interested heres a link where an article on Cyrptobis iubilans
http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Faculty%20Pubs/YanongPubs/C.iubians_Discus_JAVMA.pdf

[satty]

hey folks thats Cryptobia iubilans, sometimes i type in the wrong letters;)