Myths: Discus & tap water

[Albanets]

I must tell, I am relatively experienced fish keeper kept and raised angels for some time know.

The more I read about discus, the more I think that there are way too many myths surrounding this fish.

Say, I always loved discus, but never kept it because I thought that it is extremely sensitive fish which requires special treated, softened water with lowered pH and massive dayly water changes with medications to prevent all kinds of deseases.
I thought that discus gets sick on regular basis ('cause it has no immune system) and the most favorite thing this fish loves to do is to die on you for no apparent reason.

One day I got drunk and brave and bought some discus fry on aquabid. I knew they were destined to die, but at least I could have them in my possesion for a while. My wife almost killed me.

I have discus for a week now. I still do water changes twice a day, but I use tap water and have absolutely no idea about pH and conductivity. Fish eats like pigs and alive.

I wonder, how long they are going to last?? :confused: ;) :D

[Terrybo]

Discus don't care what PH you use, as long as it is constant. If you continue to do water changes twice a day your discus will probably live 9 or 10 years. Sounds like you are well on your way to a discus addiction!

Terry

[White Worm]

You are probably better off not knowing sometimes. Creates more headache most of the time. Enjoy them and dont worry. I think we do have a myth that these guys are delicate. If they died so easy or got sick so easy, there wouldnt be as many and they wouldnt be breeding everywhere.

[jeep]

You are probably better off not knowing sometimes.

That's actually a pretty good point, except the more you learn the more you are prepared in case of an emergency :) When I first started, I made it a mission to learn as much about water paramiters as possible The result??? I screwed everything up trying to make my water perfect, LOL...

[ronrca]

The more I read about discus, the more I think that there are way too many myths surrounding this fish.

Say, I always loved discus, but never kept it because I thought that it is extremely sensitive fish which requires special treated, softened water with lowered pH and massive dayly water changes with medications to prevent all kinds of deseases.
I thought that discus gets sick on regular basis ('cause it has no immune system) and the most favorite thing this fish loves to do is to die on you for no apparent reason.


Sounds similar to my story as well. Now I have been keeping discus for 5 years in my tap water and I hope to continue! :D

Good luck! Id love to see your discus pics. ;)

[discus4life]

i dont worry too much about ph, hardness, or what not. i just make sure i do my wc, feed them well, and keep the heat up. :D

[CAGE-RATTLER]

If you dont worry about water parameters ..... then why 2 WC's a day?

I personally think thats overkill myself ........... unless you have an overcrowded tank.

But then again im still a newb!

[Albanets]

I have fry and feed them hard, and the tank is a bit overcrowded...
:jester:

[pcsb23]

I guess if you are lucky enough that your tap water will sustain fish, any fish, go ahead and enjoy. Stability is the key with discus (or any fish). The top malaysian breeders do 2 90% plus water changes a day!!! Mind they don't run filters though! Just thought I'd share that!

IMO knowing and understanding your water and its characteristics is key to getting the best from your fish.

Paul.

[Jarrod]

Interesting thread!...I think that most of us tend to "over-kill" on alot of the things we hear about having to do...I'm a newbie here as well..I've been involved in the fish husbandry hobby for many years with a long (like 19 yrs' break from doing or even thinking about fish..I've loved discus since day 1 when I got involved in the hobby...now since I'm about to set up my discus tanks and hopefully eventually breed them I took it upon myself to learn as much as I possibly could about keeping these fish healthy and happy. We all know how expensive and "hard" to keep these fish are..so IMHO it motivates me to do whatever it takes and learn all I can to suceedand I truly think we all feel this way otherwise why else would we be here? If we strive to keep the h2o conditions as close as we can to what they're used to and live in in nature then I think we have acheived our own personal and ultimate gols and that to me is to enjoy the true beauty of them..and not have them die from our own lack of knowledge in what we know and think they need. This is why I love this forum so much...to have the chance to expand my knowledge and then hopefully share with others that are in my position as a "newbie":)
Jarrod

[chago09]

well ya I also agree that there is a lot of myths to this fish but not only discus but aquariums in general. Like I'm pretty new to discus but not to fish. I've kept Oscars and other cichlids for years. I've been told to do water changes everyday well I've been really busy and doing them once a week and my fish are all great. Also I just returned from a two week vacation and noone was here so no water changes were made and the fish are doing better now then they were when I was here. Aslong as you have some plants, don't over feed and don't overstock you do not need to do water changes everyday. In fact in my opinion doing water changes everyday will actually cause illness because your fish are under stress every water change. Other myths are carbon filters. You don't need it. you only need it when you are removing chemicals from your water like meds and so on. another one is inch per gallon. Thats a load of crap. If your telling me 12 neon tetras are the same as having an adult Oscar then you need to be checked out. My adult oscar have a 65 gallon which he shares with a much smaller texas cichlid. Most community tank fish range from 1 inch to about 4 inches. I've seen 50 gallon tanks with over 50 assortesd fish in them and the tank is like a miniture lake how nice and healthy everything is.

[ShinShin]

Discus do care about pH, conductivity, and such. Its that the keepers find it easier to believe discus don't care about these things.

Discus will ALWAYS do better in parameters of acidic, soft water, and massive water changes. There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to water cleanliness.

Mat

[Tony_S]

In fact in my opinion doing water changes everyday will actually cause illness because your fish are under stress every water change.

If you prep the change water properly....ie. match the perameters in the discus tank(assuming they're suitable for discus) Your statement is completely false.
As Paul already stated...Top Malasian breeders (as well as many other successfull breeders around the world) do massive water changes everyday with HUGE success. Its always been a recomendation here(and other forums)...and thousands have grown out large healthy discus using this method!
Im not saying there arent other water change regimes that wont work. Many do use other schedules, and many are proven....But to say daily water changes will make your discus Ill is simply not true.

Tony

[Elcid]

It's good to here that ur discus like ur water and ur husbandry! Keep it up! :) I have heard discus live for over 10 years, but I usually kill them one way or another before that!

[alpine]

Mat, I am going from 7.5 to 7.0 on my 80% water changes every other day. What do you think about the ph change ...too much ? or is it ok . It stabilizes overnight.

roberto.

[Tiger Tropicals]

It's good to here that ur discus like ur water and ur husbandry! Keep it up! :) I have heard discus live for over 10 years, but I usually kill them one way or another before that!
if i may

I once took a small group of people to view some Van Goghs. One of the young men said he could paint almost as good..He could not see just how awesome the pictures were. In a funny kind of way this is like the author of this thread..He cant see the difference nothing personnel meant. PH below 7, soft water, very low hardness massive water changes daily, good food, all will get you some big fatties \. Yet some will say its not needed. I have my fish in PH 9 or 10..my fry do just fine another one says..I know my beauties would go on strike if i kept them in water such as described. Maybe even commit HARI KARI.Or is that hairy cary. Im not sure.

Francine

[Elcid]

There's no right answer, think of the diversity of water condtions that fish survive in and thrive in too....it's generally not a good idea to take fish living in one condition and dump them into another though!

[Terrybo]

I used add chemicals to my water to make it more acidic. The problem when you add chemicals to water is that it is very hard to keep the PH stable. Every water change stressed the fish. I wish I had nice soft acidic water, but in my experience, aged tap water with a stable PH is much better for the discus than treated water with a fluctuating PH. And I agree with Francine and ShinShin -the lucky people are those that have an abundent supply of stable soft acidic water.

Terry

[raglanroad]

another myth: that changing the parameters of your water makes water that is not stable . Maybe if you do it with chemicals and keep trying to use kH for stability instead of WC, like using deodorant instead of showering. If you use RO with a little mineral additive, always the same, you are having water much more stable than tap, which fluctuates constantly, (if you actually check with a meter). : ) then you will know the truth, which is that if you mix the same mineral amount each time with RO, it is bang on the same. Tap, you would find if you checked, varies in compositiopn very much, day to day , season to season-and don't forget the dangers of chlorine spikes, pathogens , and harmful chemicals which are thousands of times more than in fresh RO. You may be fine for twenty years, or twenty days, just according to if you get work done in your area, a big storm, a hot spell, poor water company notification of changes, whatever.

Forget kH, change the water a lot and you have real stability, not false confidence like with high kH which might get you one day, as you struggle to maintain stability.
Dave

[Terrybo]

Dave -Of course, RO gives you great water, but a large number of discus keepers are in small townhomes or apartments and we do not have the place or the space to produce enough RO water for all of our tanks.

Terry

[raglanroad]

That's true, T.
Iwas only trying to de-myth the bit that "doctored" water is less stable than tap. Only if "doctored" incorrectly, other wise it is more stable. But if I had only 2 guppies in a tank, I would not buy RO for them .
I'd buy it for myself : )
I am just now working on how to run the RO all day on automatic systems somehow, with only a few tanks I am struggling with bottles for holding the ro, heating it up, blah blah.
So a large number of tanks, and if you pay a lot for water...may not add up well for the wallet either.
Dave

[ronrca]

Tap, you would find if you checked, varies in compositiopn very much, day to day , season to season-and don't forget the dangers of chlorine spikes, pathogens , and harmful chemicals which are thousands of times more than in fresh RO. Maybe this is your water Dave but not everyone has the same water as you (thought we made this clear). While tap has the possibility of varying (and depending where you live, it may vary from none to a lot), you could say the same to a degree that RO could vary as well. Hmmm, how you ask? Forget to change your carbon blocks at the correct time, forget to change the membrane, etc. While this is all in your control, the possibility is there however. So how do you ensure your RO is functioning properly? Test it continously as well.

The author of the thread actually stated that he was using tap without the doctoring part. I never was one for doctoring the water to achieve supposedly ideal parameters and this was mentioned in the above posts as tried and failed. The bottom line in all of this is the due diligence of the fishkeeper to understand and test the water be used no matter which method he uses. The key is stable parameters no matter which method is used. I have yet to see concrete proof that discus outside the natural parameters, not including wilds, that are worse off because of it. For those that insist that discus must be kept in their natural parameters, Id like to ask if they have properly tried it otherwise as others have experienced!

[Albanets]

Sorry for being little provocative ;)
Of course I know how important water quality is. I just wanted to point that water STABILITY is most important, and lots of beginners mess up water by pH, KH, etc. regulators, stressing and eventually killing fish.

IMHO, if water quality in your area DEMANDS to be treated with chemicals (such as "liquid rock" water with pH 10), then you should do something about it or throw your discus in a drain and get some Malawi cichlids!

Otherwise just keep it STABLE and go on!:balloon:

[Tiger Tropicals]

another myth: that changing the parameters of your water makes water that is not stable . Maybe if you do it with chemicals and keep trying to use kH for stability instead of WC, like using deodorant instead of showering. If you use RO with a little mineral additive, always the same, you are having water much more stable than tap, which fluctuates constantly, (if you actually check with a meter). : ) then you will know the truth, which is that if you mix the same mineral amount each time with RO, it is bang on the same. Tap, you would find if you checked, varies in compositiopn very much, day to day , season to season-and don't forget the dangers of chlorine spikes, pathogens , and harmful chemicals which are thousands of times more than in fresh RO. You may be fine for twenty years, or twenty days, just according to if you get work done in your area, a big storm, a hot spell, poor water company notification of changes, whatever.

Forget kH, change the water a lot and you have real stability, not false confidence like with high kH which might get you one day, as you struggle to maintain stability.
Dave
if i may

You make many good points here. City water is unstable because they use
Co2, which after it is released will cause Ph shift very quickly. If you dont have an RO unit for your fish and do use tap water, my best advice is to store it for 24 hrs and airate it very heavily. It will be fairly stable Ph wise at least. One must call their water company up and let them know you have valuable fish so they can notify you in advance of pipe cleanings etc..I lost my Hi fin Hi body Red Turqs to such a unannounced pipe cleaning many years ago.I was devastated. The water company was completly not helpful. Thats when i decided to invest in water treatment machines. My first RO unit was expensive and large. It worked great. I saw a major increase in my hatch rates and the fish seemed very happy. Its all a personnel decision anyway..Whats good for the goose well maybe the gander doesnt like it, and so it goes

Francine

[ronrca]

Excellant points Francine especially the C02 factor. :thumbsup:

I have heard of those unfortunate experiences like yourself when drastic changes are done to tap because of construction or cleaning. Very important info and very unfortunate when they dont do their (water company) due diligence when they undertake such projects (imo, lack of respect for their customers, etc). I have been in contact with my water company and asked questions especially regarding cleaning/construction. They dont do anything actually in terms of adding more chemicals however that could change as well. I storage my water at least 24 hours in advance and hope that I can catch it quick enough to prevent disaster from happening. ;)

[Albanets]

Oops, those are the good points - about CO2 and water company. I will keep in mind, thanks!

[pcsb23]

Mat, I am going from 7.5 to 7.0 on my 80% water changes every other day. What do you think about the ph change ...too much ? or is it ok . It stabilizes overnight.

roberto.
roberto, 7.5 to 7 is a FIVE fold decrease in alkalinity. Suspect the reason for the swing is trapped CO2 in the water, can you store it and run an airstone or powerhead, that will most probably stabilise it.

There are a number of good points raised in this thread and we all have to deal with the water in our own area, mine is 300+ppm, 20 to 80ppm Nitrates depending on time of year and 4 to 7+ppm phosphates also year depending and loaded with chloramine. RO is the only sensible solution for me. Thjis is not messing with it though, it is stored, aerated and accuratley brought to parameter I need for whichever job it is to do, i.e. 40ppm for breeding, 90 for grow out and hospital (unless specialised treatment needed)
and 110 to 120ppm for my display tank. Some people have good discus water, I don't ho hum! Ronca point is valid too we may forget to change the filters in the ro, but WE have control over that and yes I do check the water EVERY time I use it - paranoid??? maybe. Amazonian water usually has less than 5ppm and a ph of 5.5ish - we can't really match that. Most discus are domestically bred, Malaysian discus are bred in 6.8 to 7ph water! As has been said before understanding your water is important, but the most important is STABILITY.

Feel better now! thanks.
Paul.

[cptkirk]

so far I only do 90% wc a week and this are looking good 6 months now.
I have 4 discus in a 30

[White Worm]

Kirk,,
Doesnt sound like the norm on wc's so keep an eye on the discus, they will tell you if something is wrong. 4 in a 30 creates a good amount of waste (in a weeks time) (depending on size also) but as long as you have a good bio set up and watch ammo, nites and nates, should be alright. Keep in mind, sometimes problems come up after a period of time with mediocre conditions that turn into disaster. I have 2 adults in a 35 and need to do at least 25% every 2 days because of waste. I have 4 2.5 inch in a 75 and they get 25% every 4 days or so and both get very good vacuuming with BB tanks.

[raglanroad]

Maybe this is your water Dave but not everyone has the same water as you (thought we made this clear). While tap has the possibility of varying (and depending where you live, it may vary from none to a lot), you could say the same to a degree that RO could vary as well. Hmmm, how you ask? Forget to change your carbon blocks at the correct time, forget to change the membrane, etc. While this is all in your control, the possibility is there however. So how do you ensure your RO is functioning properly? Test it continously as well.

The author of the thread actually stated that he was using tap without the doctoring part. I never was one for doctoring the water to achieve supposedly ideal parameters and this was mentioned in the above posts as tried and failed. The bottom line in all of this is the due diligence of the fishkeeper to understand and test the water be used no matter which method he uses. The key is stable parameters no matter which method is used. I have yet to see concrete proof that discus outside the natural parameters, not including wilds, that are worse off because of it. For those that insist that discus must be kept in their natural parameters, Id like to ask if they have properly tried it otherwise as others have experienced!Ron, proper care of the equipment is a given in this context, I would assume. Of course you must test your RO with a correct meter. You also must ensure that the thermometer did not break in the water,and the kids didn't mix koolaid in it. but all that is a given, I would think.
As to whether domestic or wild discus do better in hard or soft water of whatever pH and TDS, I do not think I gave any indication to go with either here.
Not everyone has the same water, no. Some vary from 100 TDS to 700 almost overnight at the change of seasons. Mine varies from 160 to 230 within a week at certain times. What the variation is, my statement should have said "some amount", not all vary a great deal. But most are not unchanging.. All vary to some extent, and RO cuts that variance.

I notice we have yet another account of tapwater disaster, from work on the mains. This is not so uncommon as some people make out.
Dave

[Elcid]

Dave:

It's really not all that hard! I bought this table top 2 stage RO unit many years ago and replaced the membrane with a 75 GPD one (it's pretty small)....did some adjustment to the capillary so that the ratio is about 2 : 1 waste to RO, I know maybe not enough but I keep it at the corner of my bathtub and I have one of those 30 gallon plastic boxes that I drilled a small hole in near the top and ran a 1/4" tube into the bathtub. I've never measured the water quality ever. Just change the carbon block on the 1st stage every 2 or 3 months and I always have fairly decent water for my fish. Oh yea, I do have a heater in the plastic box but I've never airated.

take care,
Sandeep

[raglanroad]

Thanks, El.
Yes, first I have to get the drn thing off he kitchen counter so I can still do dishes : ) I was thinking under the bathroom sink, running into a barrel or 2 in the bathtub...fewer overflows.You got the better idea, just run the overflow into the tub.
D

[Elcid]

The main thing to remember is to buy a barrel that will match with ur bathroom decor and not take up much space. And yea, it has to be taller than ur bathtub ;;)

[Kindredspirit]

El, LoL !!


I was told recently in fact, that not to raise babies in RO water....as it would kill them??


hmm....i hope that you guys didnt already discuss this!!!


oops...if ya did~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_2.gif

[pcsb23]

El, LoL !!


I was told recently in fact, that not to raise babies in RO water....as it would kill them??


hmm....i hope that you guys didnt already discuss this!!!


oops...if ya did~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_2.gif

Pure RO would cause problems potentially, but correctly adjusted with a re-mineraliser or tap water over carbon and there should be no probs.

Paul.

[Elcid]

Hi Marie, since we are in the Myths thread it's appropriate for you to post what you have been told :) But, IMO you should remember three things:

(1) Neglect is the #1 Killer
(2) Meds is the #2 Killer
(3) The Unknown in ur tap is the #3 killer

:antlers:


ps. Okay I'm allowed a few myths too :)

[pcsb23]

Hi Marie, since we are in the Myths thread it's appropriate for you to post what you have been told :) But, IMO you should remember three things:

(1) Neglect is the #1 Killer
(2) Meds is the #2 Killer
(3) The Unknown in ur tap is the #3 killer

:antlers:


ps. Okay I'm allowed a few myths too :)

yup and overfeeding is probably the # 4 killer!!

Paul.

[ShinShin]

Hello Roberto,

I have never had a problem going from 7.5pH to 7.0pH. I do it now that my tap water parameters have changed. The discus eat as the tank is filling. I'll be messing with my water as soon as I get my fishroom completed and have space for the barrels.

Good point Dave about the doctored water.

Mat

[raglanroad]

Thanks El and Mat,

One reason I find pH at around 6 is very good , especially for new tanks, new fish, or new hobbyists, is that when trouble arises with filters , the fish are not immediately in danger from ammonia.

As we know, many many times beginners do experience some type of filter problems.

When quarantining new arrivals, if meds kill off the filter, same thing. (Can't forget to check with the experienced for med and pH or hardness interactions, too)

So to me ( aside from discussing the relative merits of various water parameters on growth and health) keeping the pH at 6 or so is a great precautionary measure to take.
Dave