Mystery Illness - Need help quick!

[keef]

Hi all,
I have a mystery illness in my 66g tank. All fish are have full colours, a healthy appetite, no bloated stomachs, regular colour poo etc., but one or two are sitting almost on their side at the bottom of the tank, and very sluggish with clamped fins.

They do eat a little at feeding time but are not looking good the rest of the time.

I recently lost a fish from this tank to Hex, but it had been quarentined a week prior to it dying. And the symptoms were different, ie the one that died had not been eating for weeks and had white poo.

I am reluctant to go throwing various medications into my aquarium, but am at a loss as to what is wrong with my fish!

Any advice (soon!!!!) would be a massive help.

Tank is 66g and Planted with 8 discus and few botia tetra etc. Has regular water changes and am feeding beefheart mix, frozen brine shrimp & frozen bloodworm and tetra prima.

Tank parameters (mg/L), Ammonia =0ppm, Nitrite = 0ppm, Nitrate 0ppm pH 7.6 (I know the pH is a little high, but it's been like this for over 1 yr w/out any problems and is not being used for breeding). Water is from municipal source. 6 new fish were introduced last week but were all in great shape and had been quarentined by me beforehand and were introduced 2 at a time over a 3 day period. These six are still absoloutly fine, alert and feeding like pigs. it is just my 3 original fish that are looking ill.

I rally don't want to lose anymore fish and because all are still currently feeding this would be a perfect opportunity to administer medication via food - but what is wrong with them!
HELP!
K

[satty]

Hey dude you are experiencing a problem as faced by me
Three old discus perfectly alright till me adding another 2 discus after which they started clamping their fins loosing interest in feed,loosing colour,and at time standing at an angle at the bottom of the tank or at the surface and if i try to stand near them move immediately
Treated them were ok till sometime,but again the next important sign was their spine got curved ie the whle body went to a curve and after sometime they started to stand on their tail and at the end died
So one thing is ,to be very frank unless and untill you get a Professional help its kindoff difficult to come to a diagnosis and I think its pointless in just saying Hex/Fluke/Tre etc etc .What I mean is theres more to fish disease as the disease is caused not only by Parasites,you got Bacteria which can cause disease and most of all VIRUS which forms a very important cause of disease and which is quite not mentioned
And if you are really interested in finding out the cause of the disease you got to be Sherlock holmes
1.Epidemiology I think its quite cold in the UK now and this temp is the right one for Viral outbreaks.
2.Got to observe the symptoms exhibited by the Fish and record them in sequential order,all these symptoms and the sequence in which they appear are teaching us the Causative agent of the disease(though you can get overlapping of symptoms caused by disease agents)
3.Last but not the least hardcore evidence of the causative agent by the way of testing of appropriate samples or autopsy of Moribund fish and not
the dead fish.
There is a reason why the new discus you added are being perfect in health and the old discus getting diseased,the new discus may have already suffered from the disease and got cured by their immunity and they would be carriers of the disease agent---the agent could be a parasite/bacteria/virus
the old discus being in your tank wouldnt have been exposed to the agent and after they got the disease agent in them they are reacting to that----clamped fins/loosing colour/slanting etc etc
Now the challenge is to first treat the fishes and the next thing is to get a proper Diagnosis so that we can help fellow Discus enthusiasts and establish a Relationship between the Environment/Disease agent and the time period at which these symptoms occur frequently.
Maybe you had some bad experiences with a Vet but I think that shouldnt make you loose interest in Professionals altogether you can contact Dr.William Wildgoose a Fish Vet who I think is very helpful you can contact him by phone or mail and get his help but I think he'll need to see the patient in person to come to a diagnosis.
All the best,hope things will get alright soon.

[keef]

Satty,

The more I think about it the more I am in agreement. I am so gutted. Below is the timeline of events - check it out..

1) 1 and a half weeks ago. Buy 6 new discus

2) Quarentine for 1 week - observe - release into main 66g aquariium

3) 3 days later all my original Discus in this aquarium are sick and dying

4) It is obvious to me now these fish were carrying some kind of virus.

5) I don't even know how to treat a virus.

6) By the looks of them, all my original (and much loved) discus will be dead in the morning

7) How the hell are you supposed to spot fish that are carrying (but obviously immune to) some kind of viral infection?

8) All new fish are absoloutly fine

9) Learn lesson the hard way

Stupidly, during quarentine I was treating/looking for signs of flukes/hex(flagilletes)/protozoan diseases. I did not think for a moment they could be contaminated with a discus viral infection (which they are apparently immune to)

I can only now assume it is viral due to me original fish not showing any outward signs of disease but lying on their sides on the top and bottom and slowly dying right in front of my eyes.

[keef]

For what it's worth -

A) how do you treat a viral infection.

...and B) how do you tell of your new fish may be carrying, but immune to, a Discus-specific virus.

Would be good to know for the future, although at this point, I'm so upset at having all my favourite fish (which I have had for years) wiped out in under 3 days - I might start keeping damn guppies!:(
Keith

[satty]

Viral infection=No treatment,but Antibiotics only to prevent secondary bacterial infection
If the fishes have to come out of it they will/or else they are going to succumb really sorry abt that
Lessons to be learned
1.To avoid buying Fishes at a particular time of the year,so what are these seasons---a.Recent rainfall in your local place b.During cold season ,definitely the cold season ie the months from Nov till Feb is a bad time as Viral infections are quite common in most of the species(Bird Flu pandemic if you have read about it is a very good example and look at the time frame---cold season)
2.Quarantine Period should be atleast 4 weeks I would say a minimum of 6 weeks and instead of treating the fishes in quarantine,one should closely observe the fish and if needed you can add medicines as most people here do to quarantined fishes.
3.Last but not the least you can find out the real culprit by submitting the fish for a thorough study and I think Diagnositc methods have come a long way and we are able to dignose Viral infections very easily with the advent of Electron microscpe and PCR techniques,so that by comparing the results of the Pathology we can find out if the same agent is causing disease in the Discus irrespective of the place where it is studied/or if there are local differences in the causative organism.

[pcsb23]

Ok this is a toughie, it may not necesarily be a viral infection, although the speed of demise is worrying. If you have a qt tank they should be in there now. Temp at this stage should be around 86f/30c.

This is a bit of a flyer, the symptoms you've described sound like what used to be called Fish Sleeping Sickness, ie. sluggish, clamped fins. Do they startle at all, if you put your hand near them do they dart away or just move slowly away (or even stay put!) Do they look as though their eyes are 'working' properly, ie latching onto food, try flicking a shadow over them and see if they startle or jump. If they don't and act like they don't care it could be sleeping sickness, which is a blood infection. Methylene Blue in a qt tank, loads of air and w/c as meth Blue will harm your bio filter and plants!!

I've sent you a PM too!
Paul.

[keef]

Paul & Satty - thanks for the info,

After I made my last post I went out and seperated the 3 sick & dying fish into a 10g quarentine tank.

Paul - although they were all on their sides near the top, one (a blue diamond) seemed more alert than the others and lazily swam off when I shadowed my hand across the top. The other 2 did not really move at all. Eyes are alert and they are, believe it or not, still eating! When a little food goes in they kind of right themselves and lazily eat some (and keep it down)

Also, (and this may be promising), all three really wriggled and put up a strong fight when I caught them in the net - proving that they were not quite as weak as they first appeared.

Paul do you know anything more about sleeping sickness? I will now go out and treat the qt tank with methyl blue (I think I have some somewhere)

Thanks again for the info guys - maybe all is not lost for these 3 beautiful fish. I'll keep you all posted... Anything alse you can think of that might help will be appreciated
Thanks again
Keith

[satty]

Paul I think you are referring to African sleeping sickness also known as Trypanasomiasis caused by the protozoan Trypanasoma,and even though other mammals like cattle/dogs get this,the name is reserved for Humans as we are the only one where the sleep cycle is well studied and the Neurological examination is complete,this is so called because the organism entering the brain and first thing is confusion/next is irritation and next thing is the alteration of sleep cycle ie u sleep in the mornings and insomnia in the night.And fishes with their minimal Cerebrum as compared to the mammals are not well studied with respect to the Neurological function and sleep especially to commit a diagnosis like this ,maybe trypanosomal infection but not the sleeping sickness part.
Trypanosome cause infection right from Fishes reptile birds to mammals,but Trypanasome is a major problem in Africa, Latin america and Middle east havent heard of that infection in the Europe if only the person or the animal visited to the above mentioned countries and Leech is needed for fish infection.
So always think of common things first and then complicated things should always come at the end "LAW OF PARSIMONY"like a tree which is burned in the middle of a land, the cause of which can be many- like someone setting fire to the tree,a lightning striking the tree and burning it or an alien craft landing on the tree and burning it,but anyone would only choose the first option isnt it? no one would say that a alien craft burnt it in the first place likewise a common parasitic infection then a bacterial then a Viral and then maybe things like this .I can see the interest you have in helping someone,but in a forum like this where people are reading carefully everything written by others we need to use prudence and think twice and read things carefully before writing it ,have you seen any fishes suffer with this Trypanasome,have you seen them in the microscope? or any links or evidence of trypanasome infection among Discus fish in the UK .And people are only goin to search on article abt trypanasome and end up with medicines used for humans or animals and only goin to add to already toxic list of medicines used to treat the diseases of fishes.

[Nerak]

Hi

I feel for you :( . i lost my fav discus last week. now my breading pair are sick too.

same thing happed to me had this discus for over a year got 4 more healthy looking little discus and 2 days later my old one was sick.

Fins clamped not eatting as much but still eating. just sitting there at an angle at the top or sitting on the bottom. then it looks like there slime has flour dusted on it only in the right light u can see it. but now a few days later its thicker looking whiteish slime??
tryed salt and heat but he died about 5 days later

The new discus are still fine but my breeding pair is bad!! im trying protozin med now on day 3 of treatment.:confused:

[satty]

Another example of Discus getting the symptoms of clamped fin swimming at an angle staying at either the bottom/top of the tank and taking minimal feeds after the addition of supposedly healthy Discus to the tank,but this one is from Australia ,Karen you are from Aus right? Hows the climate in Aus Cold I guess isnt it Karen?
For me it happened in December last year and it had rained and cold at that time.
So the information is mounting but the Answer we got to work out on that.
All I request you guys is a close and careful observation of the fish and their behaviour and record them in sequence everyday,its quite a difficult job but I think will be worthwhile at the end.

[pcsb23]

satty, not sure I am, from memory I believe it to be a blood disorder, again those pesky flagellates we keep talking about. I haven't seen this for a while but the symptoms struck a chord. Unfortunately I don't have the time (or if I'm being ruthlessly honest the desire) to fully research all and every malady. I just try to keep things as simple as poss and whilst I may on ocassion fear the worst I will try and keep a positive approach.

Strawb, treat for 4-5 days, w/c 50% daily and re-dose w/c water, ie if you take out 5gals, treat the 5gals you put back. Fingers crossed.
Paul.

[keef]

Paul
The good news is all 3 are still alive. However, they are slightly worse than they were yesterday and are now not eating. They are showing loss of balance (i.e. bumping into glass etc.) and apparent inability to unclamp fins. They are still mobile but swimming very stiffly. I will soon re dose w/ methyl blue after a 50% w/c as you advised.

I also had a small fourth discus from the original stock that I forgot to mention. I have left him in the 66g tank as a 'control'. I will not be medicating the 66g tank.

My reasoning for this being that if this is a virus, it may be possible for the fish to overcome this on their own...and build up an immunity (after all the 6 new fish are apparently immune)... A long shot I know... The control fish is still feeding but kind of lilting at the top of the tank when not being fed. Just as the others were doing yesterday before they went into the hospital tank

One more question Paul - I purchased some esha heximita today. I was told it will attack other diseases aside from Hex. Due to the fact that we are still not 100% sure if it is in fact sleeping disease, do you think it would be worth dosing with esha heximita along with the methyl blue - can these two medicines be used together. I'm pretty sure we are not looking at hex here, but do you think it would be worth it? Especially since I recently lost the mother discus to hex, which was from the 66g tank.

I hate evern thinking about the shotgun approach to medication but feel I am runnig out of time since the slight deteriation in condition from yesterday.
Thanks again guys
Keith

[satty]

Well Paul as you mentioned its a blood flagellate whats the point in adding methylene blue to the water?
Methy blue is only for external protozoan infections and they are not goin to act on blood flagellates,now someone is goin to suggest Formalin,another one Malachite green and we in our desperation to save our discus are goin to follow all these only to kill the poor fish.
Keith I think you are doing a great job of keeping a fish as control and not treating and observing things,all the best
And please do keep us posted of the time period of symptoms and to add about my fishes the same happened,they started bumping in the glasses and would suddenly jump out of water and the next thing was curving of their body.
And if you are treating them I would suggest a Broad spectrum antibiotic like Kanamycin along with your hexamita(which I think is Metro isnt it?),and ofcourse the regular thrice daily water change.

[pcsb23]

The reason for meth blue is that worked for me when I have been through this, old fashioned?? maybe but others have backed this up with similar results. I believe it works by allowing the blood to carry more oxygen which the parasite would otherwise use, wether it kills the parasite or just buys the fish time to deal with I don't know.

Strawb, I must stress it was a long shot, the symptoms were and still are the same as sleeping sickness. It sounds as though the fish are a long way gone and it is possible nothing can save them. Sorry I don't mean to be a bearer of bad news just calling it as it sounds. However there are many explanations for what is occurring here and I know time is pressing. I don't know for certain if meth blue can be used with esha hexamita so I'm sorry I can't help on that one. esha hexamita does treat more than hex though and contains some generalised antibacterial properties, they don't disclose the active ingredients, at least not anywhere I can find them, but I do believe metro or dimetro is used in there.
I wish I could be of more help,
Paul.

[keef]

Thanks Guys

Satty - I will post the time line of this outbreak as soon as I get the chance and run it concurrent with the timeline of the control fish in the 66g tank to see if it gives us a clearer picture.

Paul, I know the sleeping sickness theory was a longshot on your part, but I still appreciate it mate it as it was better than anything I could come up with at the time, I am a freshwater biologist and usually have a good grip on this kind of thing but in this particular case I was, and am still, totally clueless. I agree too that they are looking pretty far gone now.

Just re: checked and one has now taken on the curveture of the body which is usually a precurser to dying. I think you mentioned this in your dead fish too Satty.

Nerak - your outbreak seems identical to mine - please keep me posted on how you are doing.

I'll keep you all up to date of events
Cheers all
Keith

[satty]

Paul methy blue is used for a condition called Methaemoglobenemia where this methylene blue helps the Haemoglobin to carry the normal oxygen and I have never heard of this being used for a parasitic infection and for your verification see this link http://www.novalek.com/kpd28.htm
And now again i am stressing this out you guys are Anecdotal ,what was a success with one person cannot be generalized for all,please understand that and dont come up with all sorts of funny theories and ideas and mislead people away from Scientific facts,ofcourse not everyone can become scientist or doc atleast people should know their limitations and try to take the help of a professional before letting out information or atleast browse the net before advicing on any treatment
Keith you being a Biologist please read things carefully and I strongly suggest you to go through the Manual of Diagnositc tests for Aquatic animals published by the World Animal Health Organization and try to establish the cause of the symptom and Karen please list the order in which you experienced the symptoms of your fish

[satty]

Keith what happened to your fishes,no news about them
Too busy with your work I guess

[White Worm]

Sounds like alot of good ideas and advice. I'm sorry to hear about your fish and I just wanted to address your QT procedure......1 week QT is usually not suficient time to observe for illness. Most go 4-12 weeks because of the unfortunate things that can happen like this. Please reconsider your time period for QT. There are many procedures that people use here and I'm sure you could change some things and make your own version. For instance, I do treatment for flukes (life bearer)...wait two weeks with wc's... treat one dose metro...observe (wc's).....1 week high temp around 90F....slowly lower over a week (wc's) and within 5-6 weeks, should be good. Some will add one of their original discus to the qt tank just to make sure all is well (4-6 weeks) just some ideas, Mike

[keef]

Hi Satty & gang,
Well - a long overdue update I guess. The bad news was that I ended up losing daddy discus, which was really heartbreaking. He was a real stunner and produced some amazing offspring. Also lost every other discus except 1 diamond blue which after a period of time in the QT tank recovered and is now fine.

Have had a second disease outbreak now in my 300 litre community tank. This tank contains seven discus and a few tetras, 2 clown loach, 4 corys, 1 glass cat, 1 shark, 3 cherry barbs & a few random botia.

4 weeks ago all were feeding well on most foods. However, it's really wierd, but each discus has stopped eating one after another. They have been hiding more and more and one has now got a cloudy eye. The pH is nudging 8, do you think this could be weakening their immune system? It's not like I'm trying to breed them or anything but am increasingly thinking that pH 8 could be wearing them down (use tap water). Have also noticed some clear stringy poo. Nitrite, Nitrate & ammonia are all virtually 0ppm. Bio filter is well established yet the problems continue. I removed one discus approx 2 weeks ago and treated for hex using esha hexamita but that one is still not eating.

They are all still very alert (fins up) and (apart from the one with the cloudy eye) do not look too poorly, but are hanging higher in the water than normal and slightly tilting their heads downwards. Some have now not eaten for almost 4 weeks (have tried most foods inc. live brine shrimp to try to stimulate a feeidng responce). Any ideas?

[Ardan]

How is the water change water?
Chloramines? the water dept could have changed or increased something.

Ph stable?

I don't think ph 8 is bad, Carol has ph 7.8 all the time, no problem. as long as its stable.

Have you tried any antibiotics?

Ardan

[keef]

Hi Arden - not tried antibiotics yet. Things work a little differently over here in the UK with regards to obtaining discus medication (Its a lot harder!!)

I am going to quarentine the discus all over again in a 10 gallon tank. Worm them (w/ wormer+) and then treat with Interpet no9 'Anti internal bacteria' along with 'protazin'. This is supposed to work well

I will be using just 1 sponge filter and heating to 90. Then try on live brine shrimp again. How does this sound? Any other recommendations would be great! Also, how long do you think it would it be safe to treat seven 4" discus in a 10gallon tank for anyways?

[Ardan]

Hi,
I see its very difficult to get the same meds we use here.

I think you have a good plan though. deworm and then sounds like internal antibacterial.

Only problem is 7 discus in a 10 gal. I think that will do more harm. I would use at least a 50 gal myself and buy more med.

It just sounds like , if its not water, then its internal. jmo

do you have a bigger tank to use? I think it would really help.
With antibacterial the filter may be impaired rapidly and with the bio load of 7 discus, I don't think you could do enough wc's + it may be better to cut back on wc's for the second med. + any brine shrimp not eaten will quickly foul the water.

Hi heat for the wormer might help.

best of luck and keep us posted, very interested here.

Ardan

[pcsb23]

Hi Keith,

how you doing? Sorry about the fish, its awful when you lose them.

Wish we could get the meds the guys in the States get, it would give us a better chance sometimes. I agree with Ardan, you would really struggle in a 10 gallon tank with that many, 2 or 3 would be a push!

The wormer plus is safe to use in the community tank, I've not used it but members on UKDA have, I think Chris Ingham produces it. To be honest the No9 and protozin are safe in the community tank too! I've never used them together so will be interested in the outcome.

I've not had the biofilter badly affected by Interpet No9, but you do have to keep an eye on water quality, it is meant toi kill bacteria after all!

Cloudy eyes can be an indicator of poor water quality, make sure its properly dechlored etc when doing changes. PH of 8 shouldn't be causing too many probs, its not ideal but not a train smash either.

All the best,
Paul.

[keef]

Arden & Paul,
Thanks for the help guys. I also have a 5 gallon tank but nothing else bigger (except the rio 300 community tank they came from), of course, I'd love to treat the whole comminity tank in one, but as you mentioned Paul, I would be worried about the anti-bacteria meds affecting the nitrifying bacteria of the established bio filter of the rio. And I'm not sure how I'd house all the little refugees if the bio filter went in that one!

But your point about the size of the 10g tank has been duly noted, I will try to look around the local area for a cheap larger 2nd hand tank.

The meds should be arriving today (ordered from Plymouth discus - UK) so I'll keep you all posted on how things progress. Thanks again for the advice!

PS - Yep, I have been dechlorinating the water change water. However I have been using King British No2 Safe Guard to do it - Paul, is this the UK dechlorinater treatment you use? Or is there another product you recommend above it? Thanks again - Keith

[pcsb23]

Keith,

I use ro and filtered tap mix on my tanks. I have used the King British and the Interpet and aqua Safe products, all work ok. Only thing to check is they deal with chloramine too!

Paul.

[keef]

Thanks Paul
Have decided to just treat the whole community tank and not bother with finding a larger qt tank for now. I have just isolated the fish with the cloudy eyes in the 10g tank, as his symptoms seem vastly different from all the others.

To recap all the other are loooking fine with erect fins etc, it's just that the are not eating! Its driving me crazy. Yesterday I wormed the whole tank (and the q/t tank). Today I treated with interpet no.9 (anti internal bacteria) and Protozin (same in the qt tank).

I will keep a close daily watch over the water params and give you a report in a couple of days to see if this brings them back round to feeding.
Fingers crossed!
K

[satty]

Hi dude,replying after a long time indeed
Sorry abt the loss,you have to worry abut the pH if it soared on Alkaline side duddenly have u measured your pH before hasit been the same,and also what is the reason for cloudy eyes,any idea of why your previous batch of fishes died-regarding the cause.
And as of now what is the reason fr these fishes getting this problem,sorry too many questions to answer isnt it,hope those guys get alright soon,take care
Cheers.

[pcsb23]

Keith,

Fingers crossed!

Paul.

[keef]

Well - A quick update. Have been treating the community tank as described above for 2 weeks now. All but 3 of the fish are STILL not eating and have already lost one of the non-eaters. They are getting so thin! However they have bright eyes, erect fins and are still very alert (if a little shy) so apart form the non-feeding they look fine. To look at them you would not know anything was wrong (apart from being a bit skinny) The 3 feeding ones are in superb shape.

These non-eating fish are starving themselves to death before my very eyes; I am totally at a loss to explain why they are still not eating! Have tried dried foods, beefheart, frozen bloodworm, daphnia, brine shrimp and mosquito larvae. They look interested as soon as I put it in and swim up to it, but do not eat!!!

I had some success last week with live brine shrimp and the non eaters DID eat some of these (and keep them down). However live brine shrimp are very hard to get hold of where I live on a regular basis, and anyway, I don't think would be practical to just feed them live b/s for the rest of their lives!

Any suggestions? PS all water parameters are still fine, (nitrate, nitrite & ammonia all pretty much 0ppm)
Keith

[pcsb23]

Keith,

Always a downer to lose some fish. Are you still treating with #9 & protozin? and are the tmps still at 90+?