Possible Bloat! Epsom not working?? HELP!

[Kindredspirit]

Hey guys~

Candy is here at my house and I have a bloated discus!! He keeps floating to the top...Candy netted him so we can keep him in one spot, cuz we think he was getting burned from the heater!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_44.gif


We dosed with Epsoms 3 tablespoons almost three hours ago....and we just did 6 more tablespoons and .....there is no Pop Eye...yet...


Soooooooo.....whatcha all think??



Marie and Candy!!!

[Ardan]

Hi,
2 tablespoons is max that I use of epsom salt.
How long has it been bloated? Did it bloat after you fed it (did it gorge itself?)
If it remains for a day or so, then I would possibly suspect bacteria. Let us know.

Ardan

[satty]

A picture is always better and if possible compare your fish with the pic posted in"Bloated as a egg"

[Tony_S]

We dosed with Epsoms 3 tablespoons almost three hours ago....and we just did 6 more tablespoons and .....there is no Pop Eye...yet...









Is that dosage for the whole tank? OORRR.... per 10 Gallons? What size tank IS it?

It can take up to 24 hrs for the epsom to work, sometimes longer...youve got some waiting to do. Like Arden said....THEN, maybe look down other avenue's.
Why are you waiting for pop eye to appear?

Tony

[candyl70]

Hey Ardan,

Marie says that she noticed the fish was bloated this morning at 10. She hadn't fed them yet. So it must of happened last night. He is swimming upside down and the Epsom's salt doesn't seem to be helping. He hasn't pooped.

He is shimming and swimming (when he does swim) with his nose pointed straight down. It looks like he swallowed a little marble. His eyes are still not popped, so would you still suspect a bacterial infection?

She has Furan II and Maracyn II and Metro. Should she use any of these meds??

Thanks for the help.

p.s. Satty, pics are hard to get from her camera.

[Ardan]

Hi,
I would wait at least until tomorrow to see if it is constipation and if it can be relieved.
As Tony says too, it can take 24 hours to work.


important


Is that dosage for the whole tank? OORRR.... per 10 Gallons? What size tank IS it?

hth
Ardan

[Ardan]

Hi ,
It would be best to put it in a hospital tank, also transfer a seeded sponge filter if you have it.
temp 84F or a bit less.

use the maracyn 2 (minocycline)

better yet, I like Kanacyn, Kanamycin


Double the first dose then follow directions.
wipe tank often, keep wc's to a minimum (bacteria like fresh water)
keep light off
monitor ammonia/nitrite



Its possible its bacterial the longer it goes.
Could also be a blockage from a worm.


Keep the epsom salt at 2 tblsp/10 gal

hth
Ardan

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Arden/Tony~


Thanks for the help so far. I am afraid this discus doesn't look any better~Around 10am this morning, Cali time will have been 24 hours, Tony~


If you could look at the meds listed above and let me know if one should/can be used, I would appreciate it....

It is a 35gal tank, with 6 nickel/quarter size babies, I have had them for 2 months, yesterday, I think...I shall be back ~



Thanks Guys!

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_1_101.gif



**special note:http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_1_216.gif Arden I know you saw this post just a few min ago...but now this is MARIE....I logged on to my computer and I have Simply in the aol bar, so i can just click on it , which is what I did...and I made this post...a few min later, I realized that Candy was on line, which of course is impossible since the girl is asleep in my house! Then I realized that for some reason I had logged automatically into her screen name here~ Which really makes sense she we have both been here last night~ But now I am me~ I hope this makes sense to someone~ This post could very well be out of sequence now~ Marie~

[Ardan]

I posted just above this (below candyl deleted post)

That is what I would try.
hth
Ardan

[Kindredspirit]

Hi ,
It would be best to put it in a hospital tank, also transfer a seeded sponge filter if you have it.
temp 84F or a bit less.

use the maracyn 2 (minocycline)

better yet, I like Kanacyn, Kanamycin


Double the first dose then follow directions.
wipe tank often, keep wc's to a minimum (bacteria like fresh water)
keep light off
monitor ammonia/nitrite



Its possible its bacterial the longer it goes.
Could also be a blockage from a worm.


Keep the epsom salt at 2 tblsp/10 gal

hth
Ardan



Ardan~

I do not have a hospital tank! Soooo....please tell me I can treat where he is? Should I wait the 24 hours or treat now?

I am testing the ammonia/nitrItes right now. As you know this is the tank that I have continous cloudiness and odd readings....

Thanks Arden~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Ardan]

Hi,
If you treat in the tank they are currently in, using an antibiotic (Maracyn 2 or Kanacyn), you will further impair the filter. This will only add to your problems of cloudiness and will jepordize the other fish.

You will have to make the choice as to what to do. Its a tough decision.
Unless someone else has a small tank you can borrow (10 gallon)

Otherwise this fish may be prone to bloating, I had a fish that did that a lot, nothing permanently cured it, no deworming, just had to use kanacyn on it in a hospital tank often.
I would cut back on feed to the others.
Limit any live blackworms as they gorge themselves.
Less feed = less waste= less work for the filter so it can get fully cycled.

hth
Ardan

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Arden~

I just sent you a pm from your pm!! Re my readings....soooooooooooo now I shall wait~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_109v.gif



Marie~

[JMArtist]

Marie,
Epson salt is magnesium sulphate and is used as a laxative.
This is why it works so well on fish that suffer from Bloat.
Dosage is as follows:
One or two teaspoons of Epsom Salt per 10 gallons of water.
Epsom salt will not hurt the Bio filter or the fish in any way.
You may dose in higher amounts of even one or two tablespoons per 10 gallons.
If fish is not better in 24 hours, then and only then can you suspect a bacterial infection.
If that is the case, we could proceed from there.

If your fish is still bloated after the Epsom Salt Treatment, try some Maracyn 2 by Mardel Laboratories.
It is a Broad-spectrum, nontoxic antibiotic tablets for freshwater aquarium use. For infections of fin and tail rot, popeye, gill disease, drpsy (swollen body, protruding scales), septicemia (bleeding or red streaks on body), secondary and internal infections. Effective even when fish wont eat
Of course follow all instructions according to the package label.
Get this and use only if the fish is still Bloated after 24 hours.

[satty]

Marie please try to post a pic of the fish,how old is the fish and is the fishy by any chance a female
and as I had posted here earlier did you see the pics posted in Bloated like an egg do you see your discus to be the same as in the pic-better/worse than that.
And did you notice the bloat all of a sudden or if the tummy started swelling gradually?
Sorry if iam asking too many questions and not helping you out.

[Kindredspirit]

Satty~ That is okay... you are helping! Candy is here and she has seen bloat before....plus her discus suffered from it just the day before mine did. We bought them together at the same time, Satty~


They are babies, and this one is about good half-dollar size....we have had them for 8 weeks yesterday with no problems at all~

I noticed it yesterday morning upon waking up. Today at 10am will be 24 hours since treatment with Epsom has not worked... Now, of interest, Epsoms did help with Candy's fish....with a few hours....


hth

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[satty]

As far as my understanding goes you brought this Fish two months back isnt it?Did you quarantine them and if yes were they normal during that time no abnormal swimming pattern/feeding well and then you let them in the main tank and you noticed the bloat and dosed with epsom which worked for candyl and not for you?
Have you checked the water parameters?

[CAGE-RATTLER]

As per Carols post on COMMON TREATMENTS ....... you can redose the epson salt every 8 hours.

1 treatment for 24 hours may not be enough............. although each time i had a bloat problem my fish were fine again in about 4 hours after 1 treatment. I did 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons.


HTH and good luck.

[Kindredspirit]

Satty~ Yes we qt..a long time ago....all has been well till yesterday. He bloated during the night I'm guessing as he was like that in the morning~

My parameters for Ammonina and NitrIte is zero. Which has not been on this tank for a while~i have been having cloudy issues that I know you wont make me get in to? lol....I thank you so much for helping!!!

Ardan I did purchase a 10gal, kit and all, for $36- at lfs...( no comments, San & Tina! lol) I am setting it up now~

I am going to do a wc on the 30gal and transfer over 10gal of water to this hospital tank...with some sponges....You said heat at 84....I have not read the directions yet on Maracyn-2 yet...but I will~

JM~ I got your email...you know what I am doing...thanks, babe!

Ardan, am I missing anything??


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/28/28_1_17.gif

[traco]

Are you getting your PM's?:confused:

[Kindredspirit]

I am Barb~


I owe you one I know....I have many to answer but I am trying to get this poor discus settled and treated~



Bear with me okay?


M~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif



ps...Candy should be rollin in to Santa Rosa soon with her new discus! We had a great time~

[traco]

I know you've been really busy so I'll .......... http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_11_7.gif with you.;)

[Ardan]

Hi,
Feed lightly if eating at all, = decrease bioload in a small tank

wipe down often inside of tank

I did this with a small discus I had that had problems with bloat.

Only difference I used Kanacyn.

Double the first dose of maracyn2 then follow directions on package. ( I went for 2 wks) ( mine was every other day dose for Kanacyn)
hth
Ardan

[wvt9527]

If you like you can try this. http://members.aol.com/powerfulpumpkins/howitsdone.html

Walter

[Kindredspirit]

Ardan~

The little guy is settled in the 10-gal....he actually swims now, but still completely upside down and a little puffy~as opposed to staying in one place~

The package says to add for the first dose 2 tablets per ten gallons...You are saying to add double that for the first dose, correct? Then follow directions~

Tell me , do you think I could/should do Epsom Salt one more time? Or no? Oh, and Ardan, I wanted to thank you for continuing to pop back here. It is very appreciated!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_9.gif

[Elcid]

A NEW TANK! I really NEED to get those smileys!

Anyway on my usual Non-KISS advises :P

(1) When you fill up that 10 gallon fill it with water from you 35.
(2) Make sure you have an airstone going in it.
(3) Match the temp of the two tanks before you transfer him or her!


HTH,
Sandeep

[Ardan]

HI,
Yes double the first dose then follow directions.

Also continue epsom salt at 2 tblsp/10 gal.

How many mg of minocycline is in the tabs you have?
If they are 10 mg then 2 tabs would be the first dose. This is a double dose. One tab is the normal dose. (10 mg)


so, to not confuse

day 1 = 2 tabs
then I believe it states day 2 through 5 1 tablet
then can repeat total treatment once more if needed

if you added 4 tabs I would do a 50% wc.
hth
Ardan

[Elcid]

Can you give some more details about this fish? Was he the dominant fish of the group or the bottom of the pecking order? How big is he about? Swimming upside down? Is he laying on the bottom mostly? I'm just trying to figure out if it's his gut or his swim bladder that's swollen?

[Kindredspirit]

A NEW TANK! I really NEED to get those smileys!

Anyway on my usual Non-KISS advises :P

(1) When you fill up that 10 gallon fill it with water from you 35.
(2) Make sure you have an airstone going in it.
(3) Match the temp of the two tanks before you transfer him or her!


HTH,
Sandeep


Hey You!

Okay...# 1 and #2, I did..are ya not proud of me?? But...I didnt really match the temp, cuz I took ten gallons out of the 30 that he was in, San....sooooooooo.....im thinking that it was the same...or not...lol! But...Ardan said to keep temp at 84...which is hard for me as it seems all my tanks always ...always... read 88.4...strange huh?
I know....now I have five tanks..omg...the thought totally exhausts me...San, this poor little guy is about as big as a half a dollar and he is killin me here...shytums! He has been swimming upside down for , hell I dunno...lol..since 5AM... Do you think he is in pain?? I transfered him out of the 30 with my hand... I held him....and I thought for an instant ( candy...lol) that if I could just squeeze that little 'marble' protrusion, he would fart! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_12.gif


But no....I so didnt do that...I put him in the 10gal..Ya know Candy and I got these babies together , and not one prob til 8 weeks later, and one each, bloated, a day apart....how strange, eh? But Epsom helped her little guy within four hours....


okay... I am so done boring you! lol~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif


ps...Sandeep, go to smileycentral.com....download and I will help you to post here~

[Kindredspirit]

I'm just trying to figure out if it's his gut or his swim bladder that's swollen?


San~

There really isnt a pecking order yet as they are all so little...does that help? And his gut or swim bladder??


Hell if I know! You got me on that one, babe~ He swims around never lays on the bottom, but he does at times float all the way to the top and hangs out there a while....he actually looks not as swollen, San , and juss cruises around....


But upside down! So strange to see that~ I think we were posting the exact same time...lol!


Ardan, Thanks I so appreciate it!! Will do~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_15.gif

[Elcid]

Marie, U did great, I hope u can save him! If my fish were swimming upside down I'd be standing on my head telling myself nothing's wrong! Last year I was very busy and did not pay attention for a few days and before I knew it my best and most dominant fish was head down! I moved him to a 20 gal and his condition got worse. I thought for sure I was going to loose him. So I did a drastic treatment (which I'm not sharing until ur fish is better :p ). Somehow it worked!

Be patient, let's hope he does have what Candy's did!

[Elcid]

Did you change a lot of water in that tank? Or do some heavy cleaning b4 Candy's arrival?

[Kindredspirit]

What do you think? I know you must know....He is so little....

Please tell me if you think that I won't save him..http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_10.gif...I do not think there is much you do not know Sandeep~


If I could get into your head, what would I find??

Marie~

[Elcid]

Why don't u post a pic! I just hope it's not bacterial infection on the swim bladder! and some stomach bloat due to overeating or bacterial infection in the gut!

[Kindredspirit]

okay okay okay!! I will try... be back~

M~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_18_7.gif

[Kindredspirit]

I have pictureshttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_14_13.gif....they are not that good...as this tank is on the bottom rack of my stand next to Ms. Splotches....and this poor baby is floating on the top a lot ....so I am like on the ground taking pictures with a battery that is dying on me trying snap a picture of a fish that keeps twirling...

And just so you guys know, the meds I dropped in, Ardan, are like just sitting on the tank floor...they have not disolved yet...the pack says to drop into the tank....hope they will disolved this week!

But I hope that Satty and Sandeep are pleased~lol!! Please tel me what you guys think, Ardan you too!!


Marie~

[Kindredspirit]

and....these sure are not happy ones, are they.... i don't like this much....:(

[Kindredspirit]

two more~

[Kindredspirit]

he is upside down in these...i think , most of them....

[Kindredspirit]

....That last one was actually not bad.....



Okay....letz have ithttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_44.gif........Ardan? Sandeep? Satty? Anyone??

Marie~

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - I hate to be the one to say this and I don't mean to scare you or anything like that at all but when you have an "upside" down fry like your pic shows plus the fact that epsom salt hasn't been working for 24 hr+ you have to prepare for the worst - internal bacterial infection.

I sure hope he/she will turn around quickly with everything you're trying right now. Please update us on its condition whenever possible.

Best wishes to you and little guy, Marie.

:-(

Kenny

[Elcid]

It doesn't look like swim bladder to me! I'm looking through Andrew's book! Hold on :)

[Elcid]

Okay, my opinion is that u have bacterial infection in the gut....Andrew suggests Sodium Chloride (Regular Salt), Magnesium Chloride (Epsom Salt), an antibiotic and Metronidazole for 12 days!....Oh and pH below 7.0...

HTH
Sandeep

[candyl70]

Sandeep,
I am on the phone with Marie, and she says she just dosed with Maracyn 2, and is using Epsom's salt too.

Should she just finish this treatment?

[candyl70]

Also, Marie wants to know if she should treat the 30 gal with the other babies. She is worried that one more may look like it could start to bloat.

Any suggestions guys??


Thanks!!

[Elcid]

I would not treat the others yet....They look fine right? Why not do the epsom salt on the other tank, it won't hurt!

[candyl70]

She says yes, so far.

So what about the meds that she is using? Should she finish the treatment?

[Elcid]

Maracyn 2 is supposed to treat bloat....Continue with the treatment! I hate that stuff though, better to get pure meds if you can, maybe she can get it from Kenny?

[candyl70]

Thanks Sandeep!!! She is going to keep using it.

[Elcid]

Consult with some of the others and maybe mix some meds with the food to the others, Andrew recommends 1 gm Metronidazole per 100 grams of feed....

[Discusgeo2]

First off if it was me I would net the fish and keep him in it until his stomach has cleared. He is using to much energy trying to stay upright in the tank, net him and then continue his treatment. You wil lose him for sure if he becomes too weak to fight off an infection if that is what he has. As for Epson salt double the dose to 2-3 tablespoons per gallon. I have a small container less than a gallon that I float in the tank and I just dump in a handfull of Epson salt and usually with a hour the digestive system goes to work.

[Kenny's Discus]

Yes Marie I have metro here if that's what you need you can take it anytime. Also if I remember correctly when using Maracyn 2 you have to use it for the full five days and if it works you might see improvement slowly rather than right away.

Kenny

[satty]

Hi Marie your fishes have got Ascites which is nothing but collection of fluid in the tummy the reason for it maybe Bacterial infection the treatment part of which I think you got lot of people to advice abt that
The reason the fish is upside down is the fluid is going and compressing the swim bladder and if you could remember swim bladder is the one which maintains the posture in the fish so hes turned upside down
Do all the fishes in the tank are affected by this?
One piece of advice please wear a glove while working with sick fishes.

[Kindredspirit]

Geo~ We did have him netted before, but he would escape....I went to go net him after I put in meds and salt....




He was gone~


Thank you all very much~

[Kenny's Discus]

I'm sorry to hear that Marie but Internal Bacterial Infection at that stage was very difficult to treat/save, I'd say especially for young frys that size. From my experience when they are staying upside down like that it's always "to the point of no return".

Take care and be sure to pay attention to the rest of the little fellows and make sure they're not infected.

Kenny

[traco]

Oh, Marie, sorry to hear that.:( When I saw the pics you took, I couldn't believe the size of his "marble" and wondered if he would make it or not. I learnt some more by reading and following this thread, if that is any consolation. But a sad learning experience.

Hugs.

[Elcid]

I'm sorry to hear of ur loss. How are the others doing? U know u have a lot of wires behind the tank, go to Staples or something and get some blue folder covers (the $.97 kind) and masking tape them to all the sides! I know it's hard to paint an active tank! Even if you use aluminum foil it's better than nothing.

Do you have a kitchen thermometer? The one you use to check the turkey? I think a temp of 88 or 89 reading is too high. If it's in error it could be 90 or 91.....Try to find something reliable to take temp of ur water.

[Jarrod]

Marie...very sorry about you losing one!

Jarrod

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Sorry to hear you lost it Marie. :cry:

[Audrey]

Marie...I feel so bad. So sorry to hear you lost him.:(

Audrey

[Ardan]

I'm sorry to hear the little one didn't make it.

Ardan

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Everyone~


Not something I care to experience again.... I am dreaming yes??


Mariehttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_14.gif~