I So Need To Know~

[Kindredspirit]

I so need to know~


Some of you may know that I just lost a baby discus . This thread will be colorful with some questions in different areas so feel free to chime in on whatever~ or hi-jack it, makes no difference....I discovered this discus Saturday morning and he looked like he swallowed a marble, in short, Epsom Salt was added to the tank
and within 24 hours, he wasn't any better~
I then bought a 10gal hospital tank to treat as a bacterial infection....

Where I am confused is, he was obviously in this condition all night, suffering...

Is this why Epsom Salt didn't work? I didn't get to him in time? God knows he had enough of it~
Correct me if I am wrong but I guess , they bloat with bacterial infections as well? You just never know which it is? It is a hit and miss?

Do you guys think if I had gone straight to Meds , instead of Epsom, I could have saved him?

As I scooped this discus out and realized that he was dead....
I told myself, ' Marie, it is okay'...it is just a fish. And certainly not one of your favorites'
and I blew it off...


But it didn't work~

I cried all the way to Starbucks. And Back..
over this one and half inch fish that was still ugly and not a 'favorite'
and pointy too....
There are so many things going thru my head and one is now I am paranoid....

If this was bloat, did I over feed the night before? I have always fed til you see the little tummies bulge...bloat is due to over feeding?

If left unattended, this will end up as a bacterial infection?

I so need to know how, if there is a way to prevent this or to
treat it quicker. All I can think of is if this happens to one of my bigger, colorful, cooler ones.....well, this girl would lose it....
I want to know what you guys would do first, if you saw this in one of your discus...there is a pic on my thread in disease section , I think...

I do not know how some of you go on after losing much
it would be hard for me~Now I know that feelings run deep for these fish.....

As far as my newly acquired hospital tank
it is now empty and i have turned off the heater and filter and all,
but should I leave it that way? Or empty it?
What should I do with the sponges in the filter I took off the other tanks? Put them back? Bacterial Infections are not contagious, I do not think?
So do you guys leave your hospital tanks drained and pop them up when needed?

I am not sure what to do with this tank now....

So any suggestions would be good~


I feel like he died because of me and not acting quick enough or over feeding or just being a complete idiot....


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[satty]

Marie the first thing you got to understand is you did everything you could in your own way to help him unfortunately he died,thats life afterall.
So dont feel bad that you didnt act fast ,certain things come in so fast that by the time you understand you got to do something its out of our hands.
Infact I wanted to start a new thread about this bloating and it was good that you opened this up .For Marie and others if you could see the other posting Bloated like EGG,you can find many similarities
1.The time frame in which the fish started bloating in both maries and the bloated as egg they say they saw the swelling in a days time or maybe two days
2.The pics both are so damn similiar,no external signs of any infection,no fin damage,no blackening of the Discus except for the unusual tummy swelling ofcourse in Maries pics the diskie is upside down
If it had been a Bacterial infection wouldnt the fish have exhibited the symptoms of it----like Darkening,not taking feed,Fin damage and blood spots on the body why is there only a swelling of the tummy?
If it had been a common Bloat it must have got cured with the Epsom isnt it? and is it because of the intestinal obstruction that the tummy is getting swelled up and these fishes are dieing?
In the first case posted in bloated as egg it was proved that there was fluid inside the tummy as that person did open up and atlleast made an efort to see whats inside.
Marie any chance you did the same?
Only way we could make out the cause of this Ascites in fish is to open it and do a Culture of the fluid and Tissue study to come to a Proper diagnosis.
I request both Marie and the other who lost the disky due to this condition to add more information if they could regarding the place they stay,the farm they brought it and the time scale of appearence of the symptoms and how long they kicked along after the swelling before they died
I again put this simple classification of tummy swelling in fishes
Abdominal swelling can be due to
1.Solid masses (tumours),
2.Fluid (cystic lesions in liver or kidney, ascites from heart/ gill/ liver/ kidney failure, or parasites) or
3.Gas (over inflated swim bladder or intestinal tympany)

[pcsb23]

Marie, I am really sorry that you lost your fish, I have read the thread re bloat.

First thing, stop beating yourself up. This hobby is about doing the very best we can and acting as quickly and sensibly as we can. None of us, and I do mean NONE, get it right every time. We try and learn from each experience, painful as they someimes are.

It hurts losing a fish, sometimes a little sometimes a lot, but it hurts. It goes with the territory.

Did you do the right things?? I would say so on the whole. Are there lessons to be learned, maybe. You now have a 10gal qt tank, imo all discus keepers should have a qt tank.

Reading a lot of the threads recently you have been battling with new tank syndrome - too many new fish too soon - and its not entirely your fault, after all you did win some!! Fortunately most of your new fish went into new tanks so no need to qt, but the qt tank is also a double for a hospital tank.

Did you treat it right, I'd say so, epsom salts at the right dosage. Because it didn't recover doesn't mean you were wrong. It was a very young fish and they don't have the staying power of an adult. Did you overfeed them, don't know possibly, was it the cause maybe. It could have had an underlying bacterial infection that caused a blockage in the gut, thus bloat. Unfortunately very few of us are aquatics vets with all the equipment to accurately diagnose disorders, we can often only go on symptomatic evidence, and sometimes we will get it wrong.

You asked for advice and received plenty, sometimes we have to sieve through the advice and make informed decisions about which advice to follow, it seemed to me that you did that.

As for feeling that he died because of you, no I don't thinks so, he died despite your best efforts, period.

Perspective time now, was this a disaster? no, was it a failure, maybe. You lost a fish, possibly because the diagnosis was not completely right, yes it certainly looked like bloat, but you may, and I mean MAY, have missed signs of a bacterial infection earlier. IME bacterial infections can take down young fish very quickly. It is possible that the bloat casued the bacterial infection, and took out a weakened fish. A question for you now, did you learn anything? I know the answer will be yes, it may not be what I'm expecting, but it will be yes!

Our losses in this hobby either make us or we go on to keep guppies! Somehow I cannot see you keeping guppies!

Now for your qt/hospital tank. Drain it, sterilise it. Clean the sponge filter thouroughly and sterilise that too as it can transfer bacterial infections. Clean the heater too! Once the sponge is clean, sterilised and rinsed, put it back into one of your main tanks to get it going again. If you need to use the hospital/qt tank again, either for new fish or to treat a fish, then fill it, switch on the heater and put the sponge bac in and its good to go.

Finally asking these questions means that you will make an excellent discus keeper, it takes time. You only gain experience and the wisdom to use that experience over time!

All the best,
Paul.

[Audrey]

I know how you feel and what you are going through, Marie...do not give up. I had a baby tangerine discus die on me, 2 weeks after getting my discus back in April. I thought I would be strong, and it wasn't going to get to me, but the morning I found it dead I was driving to work and I cried. I just felt so sad for it, dying so young, and I could tell it was going to be a beauty had it lived. It was also pretty discouraging, being so new to discus (even though I learned a lot about them before ever getting them).

I haven't had one single problem since then (knock on wood). Don't give up, I can't see you getting guppies either!

"Shytums" Happens!!!!

Audrey

[tpl*co]

Marie, I'm so sorry to hear of your loss :(.

Stop beating yourself up, these things happen. Did the discus look totally round or did it have a kinda "dimple" in it's side? When bloated, they often have an indentation or "dimple" in their sides.

I had a Dragon King that I was battling with an internal infection. All my other discus were fine except him. He was rounded and his eyes were bulging. I put him in a hospital tank and was trying different courses of antibiotics and treatments (not all at the same time though). Some days he looked like he would improve only to slip further. Finally he died after about a month :(. Some discus may be weeker or have some things happen to them before we've owned them (hormones?) we can never know.

Keep an eye on your other discus and keep up the water changes. You know Sampson, the RT you saw? He always overate and I had to do emergency epsom salt treatments on him when he was young (that's how I found this site!).

Take care Marie and condolances on your loss :(. You did the best you can.

Tina

[Elcid]

Marie, this does happen and I have to say fairly frequently to discus keepers....Welcome to the hobby!

Should you cry, yea! I don't usually cry but it makes me sad for days! Sometimes I can't sleep in the night.

Could you have prevented this?, maybe yes, definately no.

My thoughts: that bloat came on fast and furiously and it was obvious from the pics you posted that the fish was healthy before it happenned indicating that you had been doing a good job taking care of it. When I first saw the pic it reminded me of a time when I use to feed tetrabits (I don't now) and my most dominant fish had eaten so many before going to bed that in the morning the food had expanded so much in his gut that it killed him before I could even do anything about it. He was perfectly healthy the day before.

Okay, give it a few days for the pain to reduce! Discus are a lot of work and some heartache. Is it worth? Time will tell.

take care,
Sandeep

[cobaltblue]

So sorry for your loss Marie. Wish i had been around this weekend to try and help you through it (emotionally that is). As everyone has said, you did your best. Even the best doctors in the world cant save everyone. Life is full of mysteries, some which will never be solved. Keep your chin up eh!

[Ardan]

Hi,
I am sorry about your discus.
You did the right things.
Bacterial infections, imo this was one, possibly caused by a blockage (could be worm, internal parasite...could be food blockage, could be abnormal intestine...)many possiblities. Bacterial infections are hard to cure, very often unsuccessful. I have also lost fish due to this.

These fish, as I think I told you in an PM get in your blood. Losses are very hard for many of us, probably most of us.
You have to take it as a learning experience and then try to help others when this type of thing happens to them, using your knowledge and experience.:) Or if it happens again to you.

You don't want to just throw meds at fish unless you are sure of the diagnosis. In this case epsom salt is the first to try to relieve the blockage.

Usually the internal bacteria is secondary to a blockage of some sort.

Now, if any of the other fish bloat, I would try the antibiotic right away. (this happened to me, lost one fish to bloat, another one started bloat and i used antibiotic right away, the fish lived) jmo

Ardan

[JMArtist]

Marie,
I am sorry to hear of your lost.
But do not take it as a failure on your part.
There are procedures and steps to be taken when treating fish.
You did all the correct things. I know you did.
First step was to treat with Epsom Salts based soully on the round marble belly your fish had. More often then not, it is a simple blockage, and the Epsom Salts take care of the problem.
Every one here would have done the same, me included.
Then after that 24 hour period ended and the fish still looked the same, the next step was to treat with meds.
You did so.
But internal bacterial infections in fish can kill quickly or slowly. There is no way of knowing what is going to happen.
It is a risk we all take, we can only do our best, but these things will happen no matter how experienced you are at keeping Discus or any other type of fish.
It is a learning process, one that does not end, and one that can only come by doing.
You've now lived thru one. And you have learned by it.
Will this happen again, maybe. But you will be more prepared to handle it quickly the next time. Unfortunately there is always a next time.
You now have more fish and tanks to care for also. The odds increase that a fish could die.
Does that mean you should stop keeping Discus? No, of course not.
But you have to want to do this in order to learn by what has happened.
Does it mean you did anything wrong, NO.
You in fact did everything right.
So keep your chin up, you did the best any one could.
Now take care of the rest of them as best you can, exactly as you have been.

[candyl70]

Marie!! I'm so sorry about that little guy. But you were really great and did everything you could. But we knew that the little guys can go quick. Don't feel bad woman, you really did awesome. You stayed calm and asked for help. Heck, you even went and got a tank just to treat him in. Why didn't you call me woman??

[Kenny's Discus]

I totally agree with Ardan and I can't explain any better than what Ardan just said.

Take care Marie & everyone else.

Kenny

[Jeckel]

Regarding the filter material in the hospital tank, I'd guess if this were a bacterial problem it would be obviously internal and so not contagious to the other fish through contact with filter materials. If it were a contagious disorder, one would sometimes see all the fish in a tank get bloated at the same time, and I've never heard of that happening...

[Kindredspirit]

Satty~ Thanks for all your input. No, I didn't open him up. Sorry~

Paul~ Thanks for everything! I never thought about it, I suppose the hosptial tank/Qt tank , could be one in the same..however, I do not see me getting anymore of anything for quite awhile~

"could you have missed signs of a bacterial infection earlier? It is A question for you now, did you learn anything? I know the answer will be yes, it may not be what I'm expecting, but it will be yes!"

Okay, Paul...talk to me~ These fish are in my face pretty much all day...like now, I am always seeing them. I notice every different little speck. I think this little one bloated during the night, as I noticed him first thing that morning..and it was too late... Did I learn anything?? I hate that question. And I have been thinking about it, make no mistake about that one, Sir~

I learned that I am more paranoid than ever. Now. I bought a hosptial tank. I learned that some will make it. And some won't. I learned that I am not sure if it is wise to feed them til you see their little tummies bulge. Perhaps smaller meals, more frequent would be a wiser choice... I have always known that you will get numerous opinions here. I usually know the correct course of action to take, but for some reason need to verify that, here. With all advice, applied with common sense, one should go forward in the right direction~ You do not feel the diagnoisis was correct Paul? I think it was. But who am I? I am no one. I do know that the people here, esp the ones I am close to, are always here for me. Always.. and I was reading it is sometimes nearly impossible to be sure of the illness..

This was certainly a lot of trippin over a small fish that did not make it~I know some who have lost so much more....Im thinking you all had better run should i lose an entire tank, ya think??

One can only hope I toughen up with time. Only time will tell yes? As time tells all~

So~

Do tell Paul....Did I learn what You thought I should have?



Audrey~ I hope you had an awesome birthday, woman! Guppies?? umm....no....lol!! Thank you Audrey! I never thought I even cared that this little one passed....it was like Tequila....all of a sudden... bam!!

Tina~ Yeah, babe, he looked like he swallowed a marble....Thank you!! Now If I had lost one like yours?? omg....or like my bigger colorful ones...I would like have to go and run a few miles, so I could breathe....

Sandeep~ What can I say?? You were always there! And yes...time will tell~

Chris~ Thanks to you too! I see your tank has arrived??? How cool is that I ask you? Pictures, eh?? lol!!

Ardan~"Now, if any of the other fish bloat, I would try the antibiotic right away. (this happened to me, lost one fish to bloat, another one started bloat and i used antibiotic right away, the fish lived) jmo" ....Thanks Ardan....I trusted every word you told me~ And I do look at them a lot now...to be sure... I think most of you knew he wasnt going to make it....

John~ Always so practical, yet wise~ I adore you! Thanks for the kind words...I know ( oh Paul, I think I learned this too) that I will lose more....and itz not one of my pups...itz a dayum fish....

so didnt matter tho~


Candy~ You are always watchin my back, woman....lol!! I was gonna call you.. but then I would have cried....lol....plus I was called into work super early due to a crisis....soooooooo .........I shall talk to you if you every wake up!!

Jerry~ I got your pm... thank you!! I think I replied? lol...wow.. i was hella tired last night~ So, bacterial infections are not contagious...? Im thinkin.....right?




Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[pcsb23]

Marie, I do think the diagnosis was correct, I would have made the same diagnosis and followed the same path with the same outcome. fwiw I hate the question too because its normally too dmn hard to answer!
Paul.

[Kindredspirit]

Paul............did you get your pm? You are soooooo funny!!! Do not change a thing, Sir~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_73.gif

[Jeckel]

So, bacterial infections are not contagious...? Im thinkin.....right?

Well, some certainly are (e.g. fin rot). I was speculating that internal infections probably wouldn't spread through filter material.

I have Untergasser's "Discus Health" in front of me now...I suppose if your fish had an infection, it would be what they call abdominal dropsy. Quoting Untergasser: "Abdominal dropsy does not occur frequently in discus...in an aquariums there rarely is an epidemic of this disease, and it nearly always affects only individual specimens...most specimens at that stage can no longer be cured...it affects mostly injured or weakened specimens...specimens with abdominal dropsy are treated with chloramphenicol in a quarantine tank...the remaining fish should be given a preventive treatment with aquafuran or nitrofurantoin."

I wouldn't medicate your remaining fish unless they're showing the same symptoms, which I'm sure they're not. I don't think the disease spreads through contact with "contaminated" water. Of course, if you can keep your tanks isolated (no sharing of filters, washing hands between working on tanks, etc.), that's always a good thing.

Since you've found a space for the 10-gallon tank, you might consider using it to condition the water you use for wc's. I used to do wc's with water straight from the tap, which worked until one day when something went wrong with the water and I killed a tank of discus with a 30% wc. The water looked cloudy, but I don't know any more than that. For this reason, I recommend a transparent container to store water, so you can visually inspect it before use.

[Elcid]

Marie U did better in ur 1st Year? into the hobby than anyone I know including myself....Keep it up!

Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

Jerry~ Thank you for all your help and time! That was very informative~I have not seen any other signs with the rest of the discus in that same tank!


Sandeep~ You always manage to say the thing I need to hear most, sometimes! Thank You......



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_3_11.gif

[Elcid]

Now u really need to start that New Thread that I'm thinking about :p "How much food do my fish really need?" Maybe someone has a lbs/inch correlation!

[Kindredspirit]

San~

That is too funny! I was just thinking of that earlier....I was feeding everyone, and I usually feed til i see their little tummies bulge a bit...

but now I am not so sure~


I thought of posting ..'how do you know they are getting enough food, cuz they always seem hungry'... type thread! But then people would say..' Marie, are they growing?' I hate that question!! lol!!



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_4_26v.gif

[ShinShin]

What did you feed the discus?

Mat

[Kindredspirit]

Mat~ I assume you mean the one that bloated and ultimately died? In the morning is when I discovered him bloated, I really do not remember what I fed him the night before~


Tell me what you are thinking?? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_113.gif



Marie~

[ShinShin]

Two things came to mind. Some small discus have a difficult time digesting bloodworms. This is compounded if fed with certain granuales like Tetra Bits. Another is the discus ate too much of a dried (granuales) or freeze-dried food that wasn't rehydrated causing it's stomach to split.

Tumors wouldn't grow this quickly, so that can be elimenated. An internal bacterial infection is possible, but I am not certain.

Mat

[Kindredspirit]

Mat~


So, tell me if you would....Only one of the baby discus in the 35gal, bloated and ultimately died... but if another discus bloated, you would not think it was bloat after all?

I always soak my Tetra Bits before feeding them...but they do eat bloodworms...


Mat, do you feed live foods?


Marie~
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_2_25.gif

[ShinShin]

Several, and possibly all the discus could bloat from diet alone, or even only one could. Same with an infection.

About 10 years ago I was told by Wattley Discus that they had feedback from hobbyist/breeders that bloating was a problem for very young discus fed a diet of bloodworms and Tetra Bits. I disregarded the tip, but learned through my own experiences that this was so. Mind you, not all the discus came down with the malady, but some did. It even happened with some adults that I had.

Mat

[Kindredspirit]

Mat~


Bloodworms and Tedra Bits?? WoW! Well I bought all the stuff to make my own beefheart today~

So Mat, what do you feed your discus? I am so paranoid now ever since that baby died...I do not know if it was food related or not~


I am questioning the wisdom of my own feeding methods now...For 8months I fed lots of cwb, bh, bloodworms, tetra bits, and flakes...but mostly lots of meats...

I am totally confused now on what to do! Everyone has horror stories and the min something happens, that is the million dollar question, 'what do you feed'?


Confused in Cali~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_44.gif


Marie~

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie. Then feed the fish smaller amounts more frequently.
Tim


Hey Tim!

Haven't seen you around in a while! How are you? That is funny you should say that, cuz I decided not to feed til the tummies are bulging anymore...even the 4-5" ones... feed a lot less, but more often~



Thanks !!

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Mom calls me Fred now. She thinks i am her dead brother. Its really funny.



Hey Tim~

I gather you care for your mom? We did that~ My kids were awesome....She fell and that was the beginning of the end for her....She just stopped eating...Took 62 days~


She did call us by different names as well~


Well Welcome back!!!!


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[ShinShin]

I currently am not feeding any live food. If the lfs down the road didn't close down, I'd still use live adult brinshrimp. In spite of what some might believe, they have a place in the discus diet. I have fed white worms and red wigglers from time to time. I think they are beneficial for discus.

I will never feed cbw's again, a statement well documented over the years.

I perfer a seafood mix to a beefheart mix, and also feed various Hikari frozen food - bloodworms, mysis, and brineshrimp. Tetra Bits from time to time.

[Kindredspirit]

Mat~

I have another bloatie~ I think I may have over fed with frozen brine shrimp~you could read my thread on it?? Please....

...i know, you probably do not feed frozen brine shrimp cuz of bloat, well I could be feeding pancakes and someone somewhere would say that could be a cause too~

But I really think this one was my fault...I stuffed em......talk about paranoid~
We need a Discus Doctor~ a miniature one so he can plop on in there with them and diagnose correctly~ Ya think?


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[ShinShin]

Actually, I do feed Hikari frozen brineshrimp since don't have live available close by anymore. I think they help maintain a healthy intestinal tract.