Has Symphysodon aequifasciata and Symphysodon discus been readily crossed ?

[Bilbo]

Is it the result of our domesticated discus of today ?

[Carol_Roberts]

Discus are crossed willy nilly. Someone somewhere has made just about every cross possible . . .

[Bilbo]

Discus are crossed willy nilly. Someone somewhere has made just about every cross possible . . .
I was specifically told that these two species have not been intercrossed with each other into the mainstream discus strains that we see today . True or false ?



Also are all the different wild color morphs of Symphysodon aequifasciata actually just morphs or are they different subspecies ? Thanks, Rashidi

[pcsb23]

Rashidi, can't answer about the intercrossed bit, suspect they have though.

My belief from the reading and research I've done to date is that Symph A and Symph D are tow distinct subspecies, Symph D being the earliest documented and with the smallest catchment area, Symph A was doc'd later and has a larger catchment area. It's not an absolute though, just my understanding.

Paul.

[66 north]

There's a study going on by Izeni Farias and Tomas Hrbek

Phylogeography and population genetic structure of Symphysodon Heckel, 1840, and the validity of the species S. discus Heckel, 1840 and S. aequifasciatus Pellegrin, 1904

The discus (Symphysodon spp.) are one of the most popular fish species in the specialized aquarium hobby, and also one of the commercially most valuable fish of the Amazon basin. In terms of export value, they form about 15% of the total ornamental fish export from Manaus estimated to be at over 100 million dollars per year, and are the most valuable species (cost/fish) exported. The natural distribution of the discus is the Amazon basin. Symphysodon discus (the Heckel discus) is found in the rio Negro basin, a major northern blackwater tributary of the Amazon; a population from the rio Trombetas, also a northern tributary of the Amazon, is also considered to be the Heckel discus. The subspecies Symphysodon discus willischwartzi (the pineapple discus) is found in the rio Abacaxis which is a minor tributary of the rio Madeira, itself a major southern muddy tributary of the Amazon. Other sections of the Amazon basin are occupied by the Symphysodon aequifasciatus. Two subspecies of S. aequifasciatus were described by Schultz: S. aquifasciatus haraldi, the ‘blue’ discus from Benjamin Constant found in upper the Amazon basin, and S. aequifasciatus axelrodi, the ‘brown’ discus from Belém found near the mouth of the Amazon River. The nominal subspecies S. aequifasciatus aequifasciatus, the ‘green’ discus, is found in the central portion of the Amazon basin. The distinction among the different subspecies of S. aequifasciatus is not always clear. Additionally, since Pellegrin, the original describer of S. aequifasciatus, never designated a holotype, and two of the three syntypes are from the geographical area of S. aequifasciatus haraldi and the third syntype is from the geographical area of S. aequifasciatus axelrodi, the subspecific descriptions cannot be considered valid. Most authors also do not recognize the subspecies S. discuss willischwartzi from rio Abacaxis, considering these fish to be hybrids, ‘cruzados’, between S. discus and S. aequifasciatus. To complicate matters even further, fishes with S. discus color pattern, a distinct black vertical bar in the center of its body, are also found in rio Jarí and occasionally also in rio Nhamundá. There is evidently a lot of phenotypic differentiation within both species, but traditional morphological methods cannot clearly partition any of this variation. Morphological differentiation between the two species is more easily defined, however. In addition to the distinctive black vertical band in the central portion of the body of S. discus, the two species differ in the mean number of scales (E series), and the mean number of dorsal rays and spines. However, there is no difference in other morphological characters, the two species readily hybridize in the aquarium and possibly also in nature. Furthermore, isozyme studies suggest there is as much genetic differentiation between different localities of S. aequifasciatus as there is between S. aequifasciatus and S. discus. To address these questions, we are using mitochondrial DNA sequence data to investigate phylogeography and population genetic structure of Symphysodon. Using these molecular sequence data, we will investigate if S. discus and S. aequifasciatus have their own separate and distinct evolutionary trajectories and are monophyletic, and thus are true species according to the phylogenetic species concept. We will also investigate if the large phenotypic variation generally classified as the ‘blue’, ‘green’ and ‘brown’ discus in S. aequifasciatus represents distinct evolutionary lineage, or if other morphologically or phenotypically unrecognized lineages exist in Symphysodon. Funded by DCG and IFS.

[fishfarm]

FYI, This guy is baiting us, he's useing post on this forum to prop up his flawed argument on another forum on why Flowerhorns should be allowed into ACA shows because discus are hybrids and they are allowed. The domestic discus is not a hybrid of many species, but all line bred forms of S. aequifasiatus. Ken
http://forum.aquamojo.com/index.php?showtopic=8216

[Bilbo]

FYI, This guy is baiting us, he's useing post on this forum to prop up his flawed argument on another forum on why Flowerhorns should be allowed into ACA shows because discus are hybrids and they are allowed. The domestic discus is not a hybrid of many species, but all line bred forms of S. aequifasiatus. Ken
http://forum.aquamojo.com/index.php?showtopic=8216
Actually i wasnt baiting anyone . I was simply trying to find out what people here had to say about the discus species and subspecies since there is sooooo much different information. Enjoy the link. I could not post there anymore since that topic was closed as i tried to make a reply their just a few minutes ago . Rashidi aka Bilbo aka Windu.

[fishfarm]

I don't believe Mo would stop you from posting, he just closed that topic as we had just about exhaust it. Start a new one if you want to. Ken

[Bilbo]

I don't believe Mo would stop you from posting, he just closed that topic as we had just about exhaust it. Start a new one if you want to. Ken
I never came in here and even mentioned Mojo's site until you did. Please dont come and start something here.

[raglanroad]

I was interested in what Bilbo was saying re: discus and angels in ACA view.
Nobody has proof that domestic angels are all purely scalare, I don't think.
Lots of interesting stuff there on both sides of the discussion...
D

[White Worm]

Uh....Guys.... could you maybe take your spat back to wherever you brought it from? This is a fun discus hobby site

[fishfarm]

I have to agree with you there Mikcus! Ken

[ShinShin]

There are many in the scientific community that believe there are only two species of discus - Heckles, and then all the rest. Browns, blues, and greens are thought by this group as color variants of the same species. The pinapple discus would fall under a subspecies of the Heckle.

Mat

[yogi]

A disucs is a discus is a discus. You can debate all you want about is there one species, two species or four species. The fact is that Symphysodon discus and Symphysodon aequifasciatus will interbreed in an aquarium and in the wild. The latest and most recent color will still breed with a heckel.