Water changes

[Riche_guy]

I've just read under a local petshop's website that suggests not to do a water change for at least 6 weeks with a new aquarium setup. What do you think?

[Kenny's Discus]

can you please provide the link to it? I'm curious...

Kenny

[Alight]

This is based on the old assumption that you need to have a "natural" cycle to establish your biofilter. It can take up to 6 weeks to establish your biofilter. However, with Discus, all your fish will be dead if you do it that way. In fact, very few fish can withstand the long-term exposure to ammonia and nitrite that occurs during the establishment of a biofilter from scratch.

Best to eliminate the cycle using established filter media. An alternative is the fishless cycle using clear ammonia (in this case you also won't change the water for up to 6 weeks--but no fish will die). I'm sort of surprised that no enterprising company has set up a distribution of cycled filter material for sale. I suppose it's because the bacteria must continue to be fed, up to within 24 hours of use. I would still think a really savvy lfs might set up a big tank that they cycle filter media in, using clear ammonia. They could just sell the cycled media, throw in some more when someone buys some, and they'd always have some cooking. This way, since it would just be a tank of ammonia, they woudn't have the problem of transmitting diseases that might come with filter media from a tank with fish in it.

Marineland now sells a product called BioSpira that will also cycle your tank in less than two weeks (no matter what you've heard or read, this is the only product that really has the correct type of bacteria in it--it must be kept refrigerated until used).

Regardless of the method used, if you want to keep your fish alive, it is imperative to do water changes during any cycling to keep the ammonia and nitrites below toxic levels.

[Riche_guy]

Thanks for your reply. Given your answer there is no need for the website to the shop. It was in French.

Thank you both.


By the way when should I do the chemistry tests for the tank? A day after water change?

[Alight]

If you have a new tank, I'd test every day, first thing in the morning. If ammonia and nitrites are high, I'd do as large a change as need to get them to a non-toxic range (this depends on your pH for ammonia--you can and aquarium salt--it's just non-iodized salt to help with nitrite toxicity). Then test again to make sure they really are low. If you want to know what is toxic or not, I can find the info for you.

After about 10 days, I'd start checking daily for nitrates. Getting measurable nitrates is good, in that your bacteria are getting established, but having nitrates over 20ppm is bad, and you should change your water to get them preferably to 10ppm or less.

[Riche_guy]

If you have a new tank, I'd test every day, first thing in the morning. If ammonia and nitrites are high, I'd do as large a change as need to get them to a non-toxic range (this depends on your pH for ammonia--you can and aquarium salt--it's just non-iodized salt to help with nitrite toxicity). Then test again to make sure they really are low. If you want to know what is toxic or not, I can find the info for you.

After about 10 days, I'd start checking daily for nitrates. Getting measurable nitrates is good, in that your bacteria are getting established, but having nitrates over 20ppm is bad, and you should change your water to get them preferably to 10ppm or less.

I guess I'd better do a test before WC. I was going to do the wC tomorrow.

Can you explain further the salt above.

Thanks for help.

[Alight]

The chloride part of the salt competes with the nitrite for accessing the discus blood through the gills. Nitrite combines with hemoglobin and prevents O2 from binding, so nitrite is not good (and this is only one of the bad things it does).

So salt (I've heard some use up to 3 or more teaspoons per gallon) can help reduce nitrite toxicity.

"a 10:1 ratio of salt to nitrites should help your fish through the nitrite problem (thanks michelle, i knew i forgot something--lol). There are about 5,500 mg of salt to a teaspoon. if you have .25 mg/l of nitrite you would want 2.5 mg/l of salt. there are about 40 liters to 10 gallons." Stole quote above from the Badmans tropical fish site http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/message_board/messages/17/27943.html(sorry about that Sully--just the fastest way I could find the info.)

[Riche_guy]

The chloride part of the salt competes with the nitrite for accessing the discus blood through the gills. Nitrite combines with hemoglobin and prevents O2 from binding, so nitrite is not good (and this is only one of the bad things it does).

So salt (I've heard some use up to 3 or more teaspoons per gallon) can help reduce nitrite toxicity.

"a 10:1 ratio of salt to nitrites should help your fish through the nitrite problem (thanks michelle, i knew i forgot something--lol). There are about 5,500 mg of salt to a teaspoon. if you have .25 mg/l of nitrite you would want 2.5 mg/l of salt. there are about 40 liters to 10 gallons." Stole quote above from the Badmans tropical fish site http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/message_board/messages/17/27943.html(sorry about that Sully--just the fastest way I could find the info.)

So you recommend putting salt into new aquariums?

[Carol_Roberts]

You only need the salt if you have fish in the aquarium. High nitrIte causes nitrIte to bind with the hemoglobin in the blood instead of oxygen. Salt stops this somewhat and makes it easier on the fish.

[Riche_guy]

Thanks for your replies

Well I've just done some tests and after having two discus for 5 days including live plants.

Ph 6.8
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0

do I need to do a WC with these types of findings??

[Carol_Roberts]

Yes. With juvenile discus I do water changes every day or two. Discus love clean water. They eat better and are healthier. The first sign of trouble is loss of appetite.

[Alight]

How large is your tank? If these are large fish, and this tank is 30 gallons or less, I'd be suspicious of the readings, even if you have lots of plants. You should at least have some nitrate reading, even if your tank is completely cycled.

If this is a brand new tank, and you have done nothing to cycle it, then you should be seeing some ammonia readings after 5 days.

I'd do the water changes anyway, to be on the safe side, and keep testing.

[Riche_guy]

How large is your tank? If these are large fish, and this tank is 30 gallons or less, I'd be suspicious of the readings, even if you have lots of plants. You should at least have some nitrate reading, even if your tank is completely cycled.

If this is a brand new tank, and you have done nothing to cycle it, then you should be seeing some ammonia readings after 5 days.

I'd do the water changes anyway, to be on the safe side, and keep testing.

I have a 110 gallon tank with 2 medium discus. I've added bacteria at the beginning and today as well. Yes this is a new tank.

[marilyn1998]

I just got the new Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine in the mail today. I was surprised to see an ad for a 10% BIMONTHLY WATER CHANGE (discus tank) item called Eco Aqualizer. (pg 42). For less than $100 USD! I dont trust this!
Anyone seen anything like it?
Also, when you are adding salt to the new tank to offset nitrite problems, how often do you add? Each water change? I do a 40% change a day on an 8 week old tank. I use Nitromax to help establish the cycle once a week or two now.

Good Luck Riche_Guy with your HUGE tank!! I am jealous.


Ph 7.0 Ammonia 0 Nitrite 2.0 Nitrate 10 (yesterday before salt)
Ph 7.0 Ammonia .25 Nitrite .25 Nitrate 5 ( today 1/2 hour after wc)

[Riche_guy]

Thanks Marilyn for your words of encouragement. Well as I've mentioned above all my tests seem to show zero so I'm not to worried about bad water. 40% water change a day, wow! I don't think I want to commit to that. I was thinking more inline with 25% weekly. As for salt, I'm no expert, others will have to coach you on that. I also added those biobacteria today and a week ago. I hope it adds up to something. Well I'll keep you informed.

[pcsb23]

Riche/Marilyn tanks normally take around 6 weeks to cycle, adding some of the bacteria colonies to kick start the filter can reduce this time a little. In basic terms the effect of an uncycled tank on the fish depends to some extent on the level and the ph. This is the only time I really worry too much about ph, although I always check it every day (paranoid). PH below 7 means ammonia - the toxic form - is mostly ammonium - the non toxic form - but it will show on test kits. However this ammonium will still convert to nitrIte. NitrIte is less toxic than ammonia but not by much. This is where salt in the aquarium helps. NitrIte attaches to the red blood cells and robs the fish of oxygen, adding salt means that part of the salt - the chloride bit - attaches instead of the nitrIte but still allows for some oxygen to attach too.

NitrIte will become nitrAte, not toxic in small quantities, but a stressor in moderate quantities. NitrAte can be removed by many means, some expensive, some not. Plants etc will reduce nitrAtes, however often the best route is water changes.

Once fish are in an uncycled tank it is important to keep the ammonia and nitrIte levels as low as poss. Water changes achieve this. So if you remove 20 gals water you will nedd to add 20 gals worth salt, ie 4 tblspns.

Also if your test kits are more than 12 months old they could be faulty, I would bin them and buy new.

During this time feed sparingly as this will minimise the bio load.

Apologies for the long answer, not meaing to lecture.
Paul.

[Riche_guy]

My Ph is between 6.6 and 6.8. Ammonia is at 0 as is nitrate and nitrite. As you said the tank is not cycled yet, but I don't believe it is in jeopardy neither.

Can you explain to me how a Ph under 7 means Ammonia????

[pcsb23]

My Ph is between 6.6 and 6.8. Ammonia is at 0 as is nitrate and nitrite. As you said the tank is not cycled yet, but I don't believe it is in jeopardy neither.

Can you explain to me how a Ph under 7 means Ammonia????

I'll try, its 30 years since I did chemistry!

Most ammonia test kits test for total ammonia content, basically fish waste etc is in the form of ammonia. Depending on the ph depends on the ionisation of the ammonia molecule, below 7 and it tends towards NH4 (Ammonium) above 7 towards NH3 (Ammonia). As water gets more alkaline the equation forces towards more free ammonia.

Basically low ph means that the nh3 will be ionised to nh4 which is relatively harmless, high ph means more nh3 which is higly toxic.

However it doesn't matter much if its nh3 or nh4 it will get converted to no2 - nitrite - and that is toxic in any ph.

hth,
Paul.

[Riche_guy]

I'll try, its 30 years since I did chemistry!

Most ammonia test kits test for total ammonia content, basically fish waste etc is in the form of ammonia. Depending on the ph depends on the ionisation of the ammonia molecule, below 7 and it tends towards NH4 (Ammonium) above 7 towards NH3 (Ammonia). As water gets more alkaline the equation forces towards more free ammonia.

Basically low ph means that the nh3 will be ionised to nh4 which is relatively harmless, high ph means more nh3 which is higly toxic.

However it doesn't matter much if its nh3 or nh4 it will get converted to no2 - nitrite - and that is toxic in any ph.
hth,
Paul.

I pulled out an article from another post on water chemistry. There is something mentioned about Ph somewhere in the middle of the article. You may want to read it Paul. Let me know your impressions. http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00334.htm

[pcsb23]

It seems a well written piece, I may just copy the contents and keep it for reference. Water chemistry is a complex subject with many factors to be considered. I just try and stick to the basics, I believe firmly in stable water parameters and quality water leads to much fewer probs. In the end your fish, no matter what they are, will thank you for it.

All the best,
Paul.

[Alight]

Paul's answers are correct (both the salt and ammonia things). The only confusing part was the opening statement "Ph under 7 means Ammonia". It should have been "pH under 7 means ammonium".

The article you cited is only partly correct.

In the initial cycling of a tank (by fish not fishless cycling), ammonia is produced. Ammonia is actually quite basic. If ammonia alone is allowed to accumulate, your pH will actually go up. However, once nitrifying bacteria are established, the article you cited is correct. The ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then on to nitrate, and the overall result is some nitric acid (the proton donor) that will drive the pH down. This all assumes a low KH so that the acid is not buffered in this latter case, and the ammonia is not buffered in the former case.

That aside, Riche_guy, you should be worried about your tank. Not immediately now, but in the near future. The water is indeed fine at the moment. But because you have no nitrates measured yet, you don't know if your tank is cycled in any way, and because you did not run a fishless cycle, it almost certainly is not. This is the case even if you did add BioSpira, which is the only bacteria currently for sale that is actually the correct bacteria for nitrifying ammonia in freshwater tanks.

This is because it takes ammonia to establish a biofilter.

The fact that you have no nitrates indicates that you have not had enough ammonia present in your tank for the bacteria to eat and grow on to establish a cycled filter.

Thus, even if you did add Biospira, the bacteria have not grown and established themselves yet.

You should test for ammonia and nitrites every day for a couple of months. The low bioload you have will only very slowly increase the ammonia levels. But, if you have no "starter" bacteria present, and do not change your water when it does increase, it will eventually increase to toxic levels, and then you may get a nitrite spike as well.

If you did add biospira, you may be lucky and enough of the bacteria will grow in your filter so that you will only ever see nitrates. This could (emphasize could) happen even if don't add any bacteria of the right type to your tank, because there are always a few of the nitrifying bacteria in water, or the air (who knows where they come from) and these could be enough to grow rapidly enough, given your low bioload, to cycle your filter without a large enough accumulation of ammonia or nitrites to measure, or at least to kill your fish. Nitrifying bacteria grow very slowly, taking 24 - 48 hours to double their numbers. This may seem fast, but is very slow by bacteria standards, which is why it takes so long to cycle a tank. It is also why it is very easy to overload a new tank, and get toxic ammonia and nitrite levels, even though these bacteria exist virtually everywhere.

Anyway, I caution you do be very vigilant for a while. The bacteria you added, if they weren't biospira, are probably heterotrophic bacteria (nitrosomonas bacteria are actually not the nitrifying bacteria, as many thought until recently), which will aid in the break down of organic compounds to ammonia, and are important to prevent toxic compounds we usually don't measure.

As to ECO-Aqualizer, do you think that magnets placed over your aches cures the pain? Do you think that magnets put on your water pipes can "soften" your water and prevent calcium from fouling your pipes? Do you that a "heat" lamp can purify your water?

If so, go ahead and spend your money. I'll guarantee your fish won't "believe" these claims.

There actually are several products on the market that can denitrate your water without water changes (both ion exchange resins and anerobic denitrifiers can do this). These also claim to reduce the need (or eliminate the need) for water changes.

However, you will notice that no one on this site uses them. This is because nitrates by themselves, are not the problem. Nitrates themselves are only toxic in very high concentrations, and only bother some in fairly high concentrations (40 ppm or more). It is the bacteria that feed on the nitrates and on the DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) that we don't measure, and the DOC's themselves that are the real problem. And the only way to get rid of these without also getting rid of the good things in the water (those important trace elements, and calcium and magnesium that buffer the water) is by water changes.

[Riche_guy]

Thanks for the post Alight. I understand you. So my water has not started to cycle yet. Given a 110 gallon tank with 2 discus and plants, how long do you believe it will take the water to cycle? I guess I should hold off buying other fish until I see a change in my nitrite? I plan to do a 25-30% WC this weekend. Will water changes slow down the cycle?

also thanks for the clarification on low Ph is not ammonia. I too was confused about that one.


Once more, thanks.

[pcsb23]

Thanks for the post Alight. I understand you. So my water has not started to cycle yet. Given a 110 gallon tank with 2 discus and plants, how long do you believe it will take the water to cycle? I guess I should hold off buying other fish until I see a change in my nitrite? I plan to do a 25-30% WC this weekend. Will water changes slow down the cycle?

also thanks for the clarification on low Ph is not ammonia. I too was confused about that one.


Once more, thanks.
Riche sorry for the typo. To some degree the water changes will slow it down as you are effectively removing the bacterias food, however this has to be balanced against the adverse effect on the fish in the tank. Allowing the ammoni or nitrite levels to get too high could potetially kill the fish, at best it will cause them severe harm.

Regards,
Paul.

[Alight]

"To some degree the water changes will slow it down as you are effectively removing the bacterias food, however this has to be balanced against the adverse effect on the fish in the tank. Allowing the ammoni or nitrite levels to get too high could potetially kill the fish, at best it will cause them severe harm."

Entirely correct.


Riche_guy

It is the lack of nitrate, not nitrite, that tells me your tank is not cycled.

As to course of action, I'd test daily for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.

If you begin to see nitrates, and no ammonia and nitrites, yell "Yippee" and wait until the nitrates are above 10 ppm, and do a water change, and see how long it takes to get back to 10 ppm (20 ppm if you are lazy), and that interval should be your water change interval.

If you begin to see hints of ammonia or nitrites, wait until you get a solid measureable amount (what ever is the lowest level on your chart) and do a 40 - 60% water change (whatever you can manage with a tank that big), and remeasure. You should see only hints again. Then do the next change when you have measureable levels again, and so on. The time between changes will get longer, after a while, and you'll begin to see nitrates. Eventually, you will see no more ammonia and nitrites and your nitrates will get to 10 ppm or more and you can do your water change as in the first paragraph.

As to adding more fish, once you have no ammonia or nitrites and are getting solid nitrate readings, you can double the number of fish you have, and should have no problems. However, be sure to test for ammonia and nitrites during the time after adding new fish.

However, discus do better in larger numbers. You could, and probably should have a bunch of them (as many as 16 Juvies - adults).

However, if you do a buy a big batch, you'll have a problem with quarantine, since you'll have no place to quarantine them, and a batch this big will certainly cause a mini cycle in your tank. What to do?

Unless the first two you have are very valuable, I'd forget quarantine. You will have had them long enough to know they don't have any bacterial or viral diseases to transmit to you new fish (Discus plague is transmissible for a couple of months, even in fish that do not look sick).

To prepare your filter for the large increase in bioload, I suggest the following.

Buy some filter media compatible with your filter (sponge, biomax, floss, ceramic noodles) enough to fill or at least half fill any extra space in your filter. Buy a 3-5 gallon waste basket. Get a large air stone and hook it into your air pump for you other tank (or buy a cheap $4 pump). Put the air stone in the basket with enough water to half fill, or more the basket. Put the filter media over the air stone (if it's loose stuff, put it in a biobag, or nylon stocking, or large fish net). This will keep the water circulating through the media. Buy some clear ammonia (really cheap stuff available at Walmart, supermarkets, etc. --no fragrance or surfactants --shake it--if it doesn't foam it's probably good. Do the fishless cycle thing with this ammonia in the waste basket. You may need to heat the basket with an aquarium heater if your house is under 70 F. To do the fishless cycle, add enough ammonia to bring the basket water to 5ppm. Leave it their until the ammonia goes to zero. This could take 3 weeks or more unless you can get some gravel or filter material from an established tank to "seed" the new material. You should be getting nitrites at this point. Now add enough ammonia to get back to 5 ppm. Wait unit that's gone again. Then add enough to get back to 5 ppm, and so on, until you can add that much ammonia every day, and it is back to zero every day. At this point, your nitrites will also likely be going to zero every day, and you'll be getting lots of nitrates. At this point, I'd change all of the water. Now add 5 drops of ammonia for each new adult discus (1-2 drops for each baby, 3 or so drops for each Juvi) Discus you want to add to your tank. If this amount does not take your ammonia reading in the basket over 15 ppm- you're fine. If it does, dilute the water down with some fresh water so it isn't. Now keep adding this much ammonia until it goes to zero each day. Now you have filter media that is cycled to enough bioload that you can add as many fish as you want to your tank with no minicycle problems. Just rinse the media, put it in your filter, and add your new fish. Do not put the new media in your filter until the day you add your new fish, or the bacteria will begin to die off (it needs the ammonia your fish will produce). Voila! The fishless cycle in a waste basket.

Another option is to buy some biospira and use it as directed when you add your new fish. You will still, likely have a small mild mini-cycle that can easily be taken care of with a increase in your water changes. If you try to add this many fish and take care of it with water changes alone, you will likely fail.

[Riche_guy]

Thanks for that indepth explanation and information. I'll have to look at it for a little while to absorb it. wow, I think I'll call you Guru from now on. Well thanks again and I will keep you posted.

One more thing. I noticed that my 2 discus are still quite nervous I was wondering if i introduced another 2 would it help them to open up. i figure 2 more would not change the water chemistry much?

[Bainbridge Mike]

Discus are generally much happier in a group. Most folks like to keep at least 6. You should not have any trouble with a 110. However, you will need to quaranteen your new discus (at least 3, weeks and some say longer) before you mix any new fish with the 2 you already have. Perhaps you could take the 2 you already have and put them in a spare tank and "quaranteen" a group of 4 or six in the 110? However, I would not recommend cycling a new tank with discus. Can you get a cycled sponge filter from someone else, or perhaps add biospira to your tank?

Mike

[Alight]

Mike is right. I didn't suggest putting the two in to a quarantine tank, and putting new fish into the big tank, because I was thinking you didn't have another tank available. On-the-other-hand, I'm trying to see what would be the worst outcome from adding the new fish directly to your old. The worst would be that some of the new fish are sick. All of them would be exposed to whatever they have. You'll be pretty certain by then that none of your new fish are sick. So if you added them in with your new fish, the worst is that your two old fish might get sick in additioin to whatever fish get sick from the new batch. But if you're adding say 10 - 14 new fish, two isn't very many more that you might lose. If you quarantine the two in a new tank, you might save the two. So that could possibly be your savings. But the new tank probably will not be as well cycled, and they will still be alone which is stressful, so they might not do that well in the quarantine tank. For these reasons, if it were me, I'd probably add the new fish directly in with the old.

Riche_Guy, it's interesting, but you just suggested what Dick Au (one of the premier american discus breeders who recently spoke at our aquarium society meeting) said is one of the major reasons people decide discus are hard to keep and give up on them.

What they do is go out an buy two one place. Then, they go out and buy two more somewhere else, then two more, etc. This greatly increases the likelihood that at least one of the batches will infect all of the rest with some terrible disease, the buyer will lose them all, and never try to keep discus again.

He recommends buying large numbers at once, and then not buying anymore. I actually agree with thisk, but the way I see it, the problem is that this answer is also a recipe to lose them all because a large number, all at once, increases the bioload to the point where you also chance losing them all to ammonia and nitrite toxicity. Which is why I was priming you with the wastebasket method of beefing up your biofilter to be able to handle whatever load of discus you decide to buy.

I highly recommend getting the full load of discus that you want to have with your next purchase. Don't add two here and two there. Just use the fishless biofilter build up I suggested before you do, and all will be well.

Oh, yeah, you can greatly speed up the wastebasket procedure I mentioned by adding biospira to the wastebasket. Half when you start the procedure, and half when you see high nitrites (3ppm or more) in your testing. Could take less than 1.5 weeks that way. Alternatively, as I suggested before, you can just add the biospira to your big tank when you get your new fish and test daily, and be prepared for extra water changes for a couple of weeks or so.

[marilyn1998]

This thread has really hit me right where I needed it. I was foolish to think that because about 10 years ago I had 2 discus in a 40 high tank (for about 3 years) and never had an ounce of trouble that I knew enough to start off a new tank with discus. I thought if I paid attention daily, did water changes daily, and followed all the "rules" that I could pull it off.
Well, my tank has now cycled. I havent lost any of my 4 babies and they are now swimming all over and eating like pigs. But I am feeling guilty for stressing them through all these changes. Seeing them so happy and all makes me realize just how much they went through because I was cocky.
If it hadnt been for all of you and your advice, and the good stock of fish I started with, I am sure I would have lost them all.

Thanks to everyone that posts for us "newbies" and take the time to help us.
I hope some day soon I can help out too!

[Alight]

Marilyn, don't feel bad. I have raised tropical fish for almost 50 years, but put down the discus hobby for about 10 years (kids, job, move, etc.). When I started up again last year, I knew nothing about fishless cycling and started to cycle my tank with cardinal and neon tetras, figuring I'd lose at least half if not more during the process. I started educating myself online, and found out how much more there was that could be done now, and found out about biospira, bought some during the second week of my cycling, and didn't lose a single tetra! Too many, so had to sell some to the local stores!

Also, found out how beautiful discus are now, and bought some of the newer varieties. Read a bunch from the experienced people on this site and others, which made me understand why I had been successful before, and how to keep it up without it being "magic", and how to do things more easily. And now I've added a new trick--a really nicely planted discus tank. I had thought, previously, it couldn't be done!
Thanks to everyone on Simply Discus, and Planted tank forums.

Al

[Jarrod]

This thread has really hit me right where I needed it. I was foolish to think that because about 10 years ago I had 2 discus in a 40 high tank (for about 3 years) and never had an ounce of trouble that I knew enough to start off a new tank with discus. I thought if I paid attention daily, did water changes daily, and followed all the "rules" that I could pull it off.
Well, my tank has now cycled. I havent lost any of my 4 babies and they are now swimming all over and eating like pigs. But I am feeling guilty for stressing them through all these changes. Seeing them so happy and all makes me realize just how much they went through because I was cocky.
If it hadnt been for all of you and your advice, and the good stock of fish I started with, I am sure I would have lost them all.

Thanks to everyone that posts for us "newbies" and take the time to help us.
I hope some day soon I can help out too!

Marilyn and everyone else....this thread is hitting me just like it is Marilyn...they say timing is everything...lol...and for me it sure is!...I am going to be setting my 55 up this next week come hell or high water...and turning my 15 gal into a BB setup for the new fish I am planning on as a qt tank and grow out tank until I get another couple of tanks set up and cycled and stocked with juvies that I want to get...then they will be put into my 55 that is going to have dividers in itand used as a combination breeder/grow out tank. At least this is my plan of attack on my fish room setup as I get the stands and cabinets built up the way I want them done.:D

[Alight]

Jarrod, the way I understand it, you have the advantage of having at least one cycled filter, right? If so, you will have an easy time getting your tanks ready for how ever many fish you want to put in them.

What you can do is take about half of your filter media out of your already cycled filter, and put new media back in it.

Take the half you took out of the old filter and put it in your new filter, along with all the new media that comes with the new filter (might be tight fit, but I'm sure you can find a way to do it.

Then, do the fishless cycling with clear ammonia in the new tank with the new filter (or filters--if you have more than one, split up the already cycled filter media into both or how many ever filters you have in the tank). Now you can probably get by with just adding 3 drops of clear ammonia a day for each Juvi you want to add to a tank, or 5 drops for each adult. Test the ammonia levels each day. If the level is higher than 5 (maybe even 7) the first day, dilute the water in the tank with some fresh water, and cut back a bit so you don't have more than 5 at the max, each day. The just watch as your filter quickly increases its ability to eat ammonia, and then nitrite, until both are zero at the beginning of each day. Keep adding this much ammonia until the day before you want to add your fish. The do a 100% water change and rinse your filter. Of course make sure you neutralize the chloramine or chorine as you normally would with a water change, and the next day, you're ready to add your fish.

I'd still test for ammonia and nitrites for the first month or so, at least every third day. Also, test daily for nitrates, and when they get to 10 ppm or more, do your water change (as large a change as you can do--up to 80% but at least 40% in a 55 gallon tank). After a while, you'll know exactly how many days this is, and you can skip the nitrate testing and just change the water after however many days it takes to get to 10 ppm.

You'll have some very beautiful, healthy fish if the stock was good, and you follow this advice. If you feed them well, you will be amaze at how quickly they grow and how clean and healthy they look!

[Riche_guy]

Well your right, I only have one tank so quarantine the new fish is out of the question. I think I will add new discus from the tank I purchased my fish. That way I don't worry as much for diseases (I may be wrong though). Right now I am a little worried about my fish they are showing signs of shyness I thought they had gotten over last week. they hide in the back when they know I'm there and swim out relunctantly when I put food in. Hence why I want to add 2 more discus. I saw some discus I liked, but they were from another shop. I guess I should wait before introducing them??

[Jarrod]

Jarrod, the way I understand it, you have the advantage of having at least one cycled filter, right? If so, you will have an easy time getting your tanks ready for how ever many fish you want to put in them.

What you can do is take about half of your filter media out of your already cycled filter, and put new media back in it.

Take the half you took out of the old filter and put it in your new filter, along with all the new media that comes with the new filter (might be tight fit, but I'm sure you can find a way to do it.

Then, do the fishless cycling with clear ammonia in the new tank with the new filter (or filters--if you have more than one, split up the already cycled filter media into both or how many ever filters you have in the tank). Now you can probably get by with just adding 3 drops of clear ammonia a day for each Juvi you want to add to a tank, or 5 drops for each adult. Test the ammonia levels each day. If the level is higher than 5 (maybe even 7) the first day, dilute the water in the tank with some fresh water, and cut back a bit so you don't have more than 5 at the max, each day. The just watch as your filter quickly increases its ability to eat ammonia, and then nitrite, until both are zero at the beginning of each day. Keep adding this much ammonia until the day before you want to add your fish. The do a 100% water change and rinse your filter. Of course make sure you neutralize the chloramine or chorine as you normally would with a water change, and the next day, you're ready to add your fish.

I'd still test for ammonia and nitrites for the first month or so, at least every third day. Also, test daily for nitrates, and when they get to 10 ppm or more, do your water change (as large a change as you can do--up to 80% but at least 40% in a 55 gallon tank). After a while, you'll know exactly how many days this is, and you can skip the nitrate testing and just change the water after however many days it takes to get to 10 ppm.

You'll have some very beautiful, healthy fish if the stock was good, and you follow this advice. If you feed them well, you will be amaze at how quickly they grow and how clean and healthy they look!


Al...I do have the one cycled filter as it stands right now...it's a Marineland Bio Wheel...what I'm going to do on the filter that came with my new 55 is put the filter pads from it in the BioWheel and let it sit there until I get the tank set up and running...this thread is helping me get ready to remember all the stuff I've forgotten about in the years I'd been out of the hobby. In actuality this whole forum and all the folks on it are awesome!!!!:angel:

[discusCain]

Hi,

I was looking into purchasing an Eco Aqualizer from my LFS.

It is a cylinder (with magnets plus other components) which can be connected through your filter system's air tubes or powered via a powerhead. As water passes through the Eco Aqualizer harmful elements are removed from the water.

There is a lot of debate as to whether it does what it says on the tin.

When I asked for an Eco Aqualizer at my LFS, I was told that I would be better off with a UV system. Read from that what you will.

Iain

[Alight]

I agree with your lfs' advice.

Jarrod, leave the old media in the Bio Wheel at the same time. This will be in a tank with fish, right? If so, very good idea.

Riche_Guy
If the fish from the tank you got your discus are still the same (no new additions) it should be fairly safe. If I were you, though, I would think seriously about getting all of the discus you want with your next buy. The two discus you have will live for a few weeks and will be better off if you only add one more batch of fish (unless you can get a quarantine tank set up and going).

I'd start now on getting some filter media cycled in in a basket, so that you can add a bunch of new fish in a few weeks.

[Jarrod]

I agree with your lfs' advice.

Jarrod, leave the old media in the Bio Wheel at the same time. This will be in a tank with fish, right? If so, very good idea.

Riche_Guy
If the fish from the tank you got your discus are still the same (no new additions) it should be fairly safe. If I were you, though, I would think seriously about getting all of the discus you want with your next buy. The two discus you have will live for a few weeks and will be better off if you only add one more batch of fish (unless you can get a quarantine tank set up and going).

I'd start now on getting some filter media cycled in in a basket, so that you can add a bunch of new fish in a few weeks.

Al...yep it's going to be in tank with fish...all I'm gonna do with the new one is put the filter cartridge in the open bay in my BioWheel and leave it on my 15 gal till I get the new 55 up

[Riche_guy]

Yes you are right Alight. I do want to get a few the same as what I have, but I'm also interested in other varieties. That means other tanks and possibly another LFS. Should I get them all before the tank is completely cycled?? What are the amount should I consider for 110? Also thinking about purchasing 6 little scavangers.

Thanks.

[Riche_guy]

I did a 40% water change yesterday. the fish are shyer then ever. Hovering in the back under plants near the gravel. I will check the chemistry today. I noticed this tiny white hair thin worm like thing about 1/2 mm long (did I say tiny) on the side of the glass. What's that?

Take care.

[pcsb23]

I did a 40% water change yesterday. the fish are shyer then ever. Hovering in the back under plants near the gravel. I will check the chemistry today. I noticed this tiny white hair thin worm like thing about 1/2 mm long (did I say tiny) on the side of the glass. What's that?

Take care.
Riche_Guy check your water you are using for water changes, do you condition it or age it?? Test for chlorine/chloramines and test the ph too! Also try to match the temp as close as possible.
Paul.

[Riche_guy]

Riche_Guy check your water you are using for water changes, do you condition it or age it?? Test for chlorine/chloramines and test the ph too! Also try to match the temp as close as possible.
Paul.

I'm using a Python hose system to remove the water from the tank and I also using it to fill the tank. The Discus expert at LFS told me where I live I should not worry about the water since the Ph is 7 and is soft. And since I'm doing only a 40% WC I could treat the water directly in the aquarium. I couldn't imagine using the python any other way. I try to match the water temperature very closely and I'm off by only 2 degrees.

[pcsb23]

Normally when fish hide its because they are stressed. The most common stressor is varying water quality. If your water contains even the smallest amount of chlorine/chloramine it will stress the fish. Phone the water company and ask them or test the tap water or just play safe and add prime to the tank at the same time as adding the water. My tap water comes out of hte tap with a ph of 7.3 to ph7.4. After standing for a few hours with an airstone in it goes to 8.6! No disrespect here but I'd check your tap water to confirm its ok and not take the guy at the lfs word for it.
Paul.

[Riche_guy]

Normally when fish hide its because they are stressed. The most common stressor is varying water quality. If your water contains even the smallest amount of chlorine/chloramine it will stress the fish. Phone the water company and ask them or test the tap water or just play safe and add prime to the tank at the same time as adding the water. My tap water comes out of hte tap with a ph of 7.3 to ph7.4. After standing for a few hours with an airstone in it goes to 8.6! No disrespect here but I'd check your tap water to confirm its ok and not take the guy at the lfs word for it.
Paul.

Thanks. I'll do a chlorine check. I didn't mention though that the fish have been like this before the WC and it was between 6.6 - 6.8 Ph

[Alight]

"Yes you are right Alight. I do want to get a few the same as what I have, but I'm also interested in other varieties. That means other tanks and possibly another LFS. Should I get them all before the tank is completely cycled?? What are the amount should I consider for 110? Also thinking about purchasing 6 little scavangers."

I'd wait until the tank is currently cycled as it is. Even though the two are undoubtably shy and stressed because there are ony two of them, the water quality problems mean that adding more fish will likely put even more stress on them. At least this way, you stand to only lose two fish. If you add more, you stand to lose as many as you put in the tank.

For a 110, you could have as many as 16 Discus. However, to keep the water changes down, you might think more of 10-12. The more fish you have, the more often you'll have to change the water.

For scavangers, I'd buy otocinclus catfish and bristlenose plecos. These are great for eating algae and the bristlenose will also clean up the food particles. (I know some have had problems with otos latching onto discus, but most have not had this problem--apparently it depends on the strain of oto you get--unfortunately no one knows which are good and which are bad and how to tell the difference). Otos will get rid of your brown algae quite nicely. Brown algae is often a nuisance in new tanks.

Some here have used corys of one sort or another as bottom scavengers (they won't do much for your algae).

[Riche_guy]

Well I just did another water test and here it is:

Ph 6.8
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
Nitrate still 0
general hardness 5dGH
carbonate hardness 2dGH

Will wait a few days and try again.

[Alight]

Out of curiosity (actually a bit more than that) what kind of test kit are you using?

[Riche_guy]

Out of curiosity (actually a bit more than that) what kind of test kit are you using?

I'm using the Freshwater Master Test Kit by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. Why? :confused:

[Alight]

Just as a point of reference. Some of the test kits are very insensitive for nitrates (Hagen for example).

AP tests are also a bit variable. I use them, but I calibrate them with a laboratory verified solution of nitrate.

It's possible that your kit is on the insensitive side (sometimes this happens). Don't worry, though, it will eventually tell you when you have nitrates. Your tank is not planted, is it?

It's very good that ammonia and nitrites aren't show up. It means that you may have some bacteria going already. Even if you don't, it means your fish should be fine as far as water quality goes. You might go ahead and get some of the small scavengers you want. These may help get the cycle going, but are not a huge bioload, so probably won't kick things into the toxic range. The only drawback is that it would be good to quarantine them as well. It is not unusual for otos and others to harbor nematodes, even the really ugly and deadly camallanus. I usually treat these for nematodes and tapeworms and gill flukes with levamisole and then with prazi when I quarantine them, whether or not they show any signs of disease, just to make sure that they don't pass them to my discus.

[Riche_guy]

Just as a point of reference. Some of the test kits are very insensitive for nitrates (Hagen for example).

AP tests are also a bit variable. I use them, but I calibrate them with a laboratory verified solution of nitrate.

It's possible that your kit is on the insensitive side (sometimes this happens). Don't worry, though, it will eventually tell you when you have nitrates. Your tank is not planted, is it?

It's very good that ammonia and nitrites aren't show up. It means that you may have some bacteria going already. Even if you don't, it means your fish should be fine as far as water quality goes. You might go ahead and get some of the small scavengers you want. These may help get the cycle going, but are not a huge bioload, so probably won't kick things into the toxic range. The only drawback is that it would be good to quarantine them as well. It is not unusual for otos and others to harbor nematodes, even the really ugly and deadly camallanus. I usually treat these for nematodes and tapeworms and gill flukes with levamisole and then with prazi when I quarantine them, whether or not they show any signs of disease, just to make sure that they don't pass them to my discus.

Yes my aquarium is planted and I have a couple of rocks and a log. When it comes to quarantine there I have a problem. I don't have an extra aquarium. I know my LFS has some codoras that are being quarantine as we speak. Perhaps I could get some from that batch?

[Alight]

It is possible, if your tank is heavily planted, that all the ammonia is being consumed by the plants, so you will not get ammonia, nitrite or nitrate readings. This is especially the case because you have such a light bioload.
When you add fish, you will, at some point, overload their capacity and may see some ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. However, if you add your load slowly, it may never get into the toxic range.

Wait a week, and the, if no ammonia, etc. shows up, add some more fish. You have a problem with adding a full load, all at once, but if you do the fishless cycling in a bucket routine with some filter media, as I suggested previously, you and do the full load thing. I'd actually recommend doing it that way, since you do not have a quarantine tank.

Alternatively, buy a quarantine tank, cycle it with the fishless method, and put your new fish into this tank, and wait the 4-6 weeks for a true quarantine, and then put them into the big tank and repeat, until you have all the fish you want in the big tank.