Oh man...I killed 2 discus in a matter of 3 days :-(

[Ginoinchicago]

I am new to discus. This is my first post. I bought five discus at a local fish auction, and put them in an empty 75 with 2 sponge filters and a Hot magnum with Bio-wheel. The tank was fishless cycled. Water parameters are as follows:
ph:7.5
GH:10
KH:5
TDS:250
Ammonia:0
Nitrates:0
Nitrites:0
Temp:84 F
I added the five Discus: a PB, 2 Blues and 2 San Merahs. After 24 hours I tried to feed them some beefheart. Since the tank was dark, and I wanted to not stress them out anymore than they already were, I left the room and didn't watch to see if they had actually eaten it. Next morning, the water was fowled and obviously they didn't eat.

Here was my second mistake... I removed the uneaten food, vacuumed the bottom and did a 60% water change STRAIGHT FROM THE TAP. I didn't have any aged water ready and didn't think about it because I never had problems with angels before doing this. I also double dosed with Prime just to be safe. Afterwards the two blues starting listing and rolling head over tail in the tank and they passed about 8 hours later... The PB and the San Merahs are looking ok, but once I realized what happened, I quickly added some peroxide to oxygenate the water a bit. I have been successful in breeding angels, rams and various types of cories, so I thought I knew all I needed to know about fish in general...boy was I wrong. This has turned into a very expensive mistake, and I really liked those blues.

I have been trying to post on here since Sunday, but hadn't been registered by the admin yet, so I had been reading as much as I possibly could during that time. I am sure I will have many more questions in the future, and I hope I can avoid any more costly mistakes like this one by learning from you folks.

Thanks for reading my sob story and any and all tips are welcome!

[Tek]

If you still keep those Angle fish, you can add this Discus fishs to you Angles tank. cuz, your angle fish's tank better aged water then your New discus tank. Keep in mind, increase the temp to 89F for couple days. Discus fish loves heat.

[hexed]

Gino,
First WELCOME to Simply! I am very sorry about your loss and yes they are costly :(
When filling your tank with tap water you need to have the end of the hose as close to the top of the tank as you can. When the water splashes it releases most of the gas build up in the water. I do not think you did this, correct? What is your PH if you put a glass of tap water with and airhose overnite? And what is your PH straight from the tap? If they are close enough, you do not have to age your water.
I do not need to age mine, but I use a 32 gallon rubbermaid trash can and fill it up and add my conditioner, then I pump it into me tanks. Again being sure to pinch the hose with the lid (I usually place my gallon of NovAqua on the lid) so it is as far up or close to the top as possible. I tell people to feed beefheart earlier in the day BEFORE they do the daily water change so when they actually do the water change they remove any uneaten beefheart and then the tank will be clean during the night. I myself do my water changes at night when everyone's sleeping so they are not in my way ;)
Frank

[cobaltblue]

Welcome to simply Gino. Very sorry for your loss. :(

[KIWI13]

Hey Gino, welcome to Simply discus... I am sorry that you lost some of your fish. This was a simple mistake, never leave food in the tanks overnight and more so never perform a water change if your unsure of water quality. If one sees themselves panicing due to a loss of a fish, the first thing to do is to remove the dead fish, then go get yourself a cup of tea or whatever you like drinking and think for a few minutes how your gonna resolve the problem.

You could drink your tea and hop on simply discus for example and pm people who are on. Always try rectifying problems with a clear head rather than jumping up and emptying out the tank. Anyway that is a lesson for the next time. Discus are fish just like any other fish you mentioned, rams are far more sensitive to water conditions than discus are, i bred them alot and I have noticed this over years.. The steps you took would have the same effect on just about any fish, rams or angels.. its just so happened that you had discus in the tank. Discus can take a while to start eating and before offering them beefheart, I would personally try tempting them with frozen Brineshrimp or bloodworms.. when you see them eating well, you could move em onto beefheart and other foods that pollute the water...

Anyway Its real nice that you have joined us and I hope the next time round IF you ever have a problem, we will be there to help you, OR you might be there to help someone who goes through the same problem as you cause this is surely not the first case...LOL

Sincerely

Jason

[Ginoinchicago]

First off, Thank you so much for your condolences and your welcomes. This seems like a great community here and I hope to get to know you guys well.
Here's a little bit about me: I used to breed quite a few angels and rams under my business name of Angelic Visions Aquatics in the Chicago Suburbs. Back in late 2004 I had a bout with what I thought was the angelfish/discus aids but none of the treatments worked and I lost all my fish. At that point I needed to take a break. The frustration was just too much and to lose 10 breeding pairs and thousands of fry and juveniles was just heartbreaking.

Recently, I have gotten the itch again and am working to get my hatchery back up and running. I went to the Greenwater association of Chicago's Auction this past weekend and picked up a pair of angels and some discus juveniles. I have never done discus before, but many I have talked to told me to treat them just like I treated my angels. Which to me equates to water changes water changes water changes. I can do that. But obviously I now know I must age my water first. I never had to do that with my angels. I guess they are a bit more tolerant than discus. Then again the ones I lost today may have been a weak strain too...the other three I have left are doing just fine. When I would do a huge water change like that for my angels I was guaranteed to have a spawn the next day...never failed.

Anyway I am in the process of getting my hatchery/fishroom set up again. Boy oh boy is it a lot of work. I got the fry tanks all cleaned up tonight(8 ten galloon tanks), not that I have fry to put in them...yet. Tomorrow my pair tanks will be cleaned up(7 20highs). After that the 30 longs 40 breeders and 55's will get set up. It's a total of 30 tanks in the fish room. Once all the tanks are cleaned and put in place I will be working on a drip system for the breeder and grow out tanks. Water changes for that many tanks is a bear.

I chose to try discus because I wanted a challenge. Angels had gotten too easy. I figured dicus was the next logical step. They truly are some of the most beautiful fish I have seen.

To answer Hexed's questions:
"When the water splashes it releases most of the gas build up in the water. I do not think you did this, correct?"

No I didn't, but I did use a python, which does aerate it a bit.

"What is your PH if you put a glass of tap water with and airhose overnite? And what is your PH straight from the tap?"

Ph out of the tap is 7.0...after 24 hours it rises to about 7.5-7.8 I can't get any more accurate than that with my test kit.

[KIWI13]

How Exciting........... I wanna wish you all the best in the new venture and I hope you get all the help you need to get your set up running...

Visit our DIY section to look up some helpful tips and our fishroom section to see cool innovations...

If you need to get some fish, look up our sponsor section cause most of them export and they are reliable.....

We can help you in many different ways to get on the road.. Just ask..

Sincerely

Jas

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Welcome to SIMPLY gino!

Definately doesnt sound like a good start getting back into fish but fortunately.......................

You've come to the right place for all your discus questions.

With your background with fishkeeping im sure you'll be breeding discus fry in no time at all.

What size were the juvies you picked up? And did they all come from the same breeder?

I find it odd that the other 3 are just fine but the 2 blue diamonds died that quick. Kinda makes you wonder if they werent healthy to start with cause i thought the blues were actually the hardiest of the discus strains?

With my community tank ........... i change water straight from tap as well and havent had any problems at all ................. but with my 2-3 inch juvies .......... ive been aging water. I lost 2 out of 19 when i 1st got them but once i started aging the water ......... i havent lost any since.

But i am in the middle of a metro treatment right now with them but they are doing great.

My condolences on loosing those 2 and im looking forward to seeing pics of your setup and fish in the future!!

Once again ............. Welcome Aboard!!

[pcsb23]

Gino,

Sorry about the losses, don't kill yourself over it, we've all been there. It's great to hear about your plans, there's loads of advice and help on this forum too!

As Jas said, speak to the sponsors here about fish, they'll steer you in the right direction, tell em what you want and want to do and I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

And one thing you'll soon learn here is we love pics, so get that camera dusted and start snapping!!

Paul.

[Jarrod]

Gino...first off sorry to hear you lost those fish...always hate losing one:( you've come to the right place my friend for help and questions...secondly welcome to Simply!! good luck and geting things back up and running again...just keep the faith Gino and don't let it get you down too much...cause hose things happen....best of luck

[Albanets]

Sorry about your fish. Beef heart suck, man. Especially that commercial one with big chunks. I gave it to my discus fry one evening couple of days ago. Obviously, the next morning water was cloudy. I resisted temptation of doing 60% to clear the water. Did 20% instead. Did another 20% same evening. It is still cloudy, but fish are alive...

IMO, angels are pigs made of stainless steel compared to discus. My angels would INHALE that beef heart and ask for more.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Gino~

Welcome to Simply! Feels like home here and you will notice that pretty much right away~Jason had a really good point in pm'ing someone to help you in an emergency....Hell, I have even talked to people at 3AM! There is always someone here for you~

I am sorry for your loss~

.....as Paul says get out your camera cuz we love pictures here at Simply!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_14_13.gif


Looking forward to seeing your fish and set up real soon!



Marie~

[kaceyo]

Hi, and welcome.
I'm not as experienced as many here but I don't think what you described should have killed healthy fish. Granted, leaving BH in the tank overnight is a mistake. And changing that much water without first checking the pH swing between tank and tap isn't good either. But to kill the fish after doing each only one time? Doesn't sound right to me. Check the tank and tap pH and let us know what they are, but I think your fish were sick to begin with.(?)

Kacey

[RyanH]

I agree with Kacey. One night of spoiled water will not kill Discus. I'm thinking your fish had some pretty serious health issues before you got ahold of them.

You may want to contact the seller and see if something can be worked out to compensate you for your loss.

Stories like this make me sad because it only enforces the idea that these fish are fragile and difficult to keep. When starting with healthy, disease free fish, you are giving yourself an opportunity to succeed.

I would suggest finding a reputable breeder to replace your blues. Quarantine them for 6 weeks and give it another try.

Feel free to post here whenever you have questions. :)

And Marie is right, we do sometimes take phone calls at 3 am. ;)

-Ryan

[Kindredspirit]

And Marie is right, we do sometimes take phone calls at 3 am. ;)

-Ryan



Now, I wasn't gonna say phone call Ryan!! lol!! You might just not have only to put up with me! I will never forget that tho~ Was pretty cool, Sir~

I agree with these guys, Gino, but I thought I was missing something cuz I did not understand what you did to kill your fish~ I use tap water too, and bh certainly did not do them on on itz own~ There probably was something wrong with them and I would keep what is left in QT~

Please keep us posted~


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_8_2.gif

[RyanH]

You're an easy target Marie. I couldn't resist. :D

Seriously, you are welcome to call anytime. Just PM me first if it's in the middle of the night.:p

[marilyn1998]

Welcome to Simply Gino! And I am so sorry about your loss. Anytime you lose a fish it hurts, but to lose something so beautiful can be devastating.
I am with the majority here in thinking that your blues were sick. If so, and the others didnt already have it, you are prolly blessed this happened so that dont catch whatever it was.
IMO- which is VERY green- the fish I have gotten from LFS that were closer to albino or white were the least hardy. I dont know how true it is, but in my experience it has always been the case. It could be a Michigan thing.
I also use the python, and do water changes straight from the tap. My water is city water, and from the tap is 7.0 and doesnt waiver. I have a helluva time if I try to lower it, so I just leave well enough alone.
In the past, I too have raised many angels and well as kribensis and I treat my discus the same way. I feed healthy foods, do water changes 2x a week under normal conditions (about 40%), and I test every day.
The rule here seems to be WC WC WC. And the folks here are the best around. The sponsors websites have lots of info and someone is always here to listen and help, or direct you to someplace that can.
Good luck!! And put up lotsa pics!!!

[Ginoinchicago]

Thanks again guys that actually makes me feel a lot better. As far as pics go, here goes...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/5e4e747b.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/476a7bb1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/a4d7a0ce.jpg
And one of my planted tank! :-)
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/fac4b6b1.jpg
And here is a cool catfish! :-)
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/6052adec.jpg

[bikhu]

HI Gino,
Welcome to Simply. Sorry to hear about your loss. It is very unfortunate that in this side of the hobby many of have a learning curve that equals the death of the fish. Unfortunately I had mare than my fair share and was ready to throw in the towel and then found Simply. People here shred there knowledge and experience and helped get to successful rearing and keeping of the gorgeous fish.
The one thing I have learned that has been the most useful is this...Keep it as simple as possible. No substrate, no carbon, as few conditioners as possible. Lots of good clean water and good food usually does the trick. There are times when I have had to treat for parasites or infection and people here helped me with that but if you start with good healthy stock and follow simple guidelines Discus are some of the simplest fish to keep. That's the problem... We like to complicate stuff!!!!
I am fortunate to have really good water and I do not have to age it. Not everyone does. When I do so I agitate the water well when putting it in the tanks in order to help it gas off. I never found that the Python did so well enough.
Don't give up yet my new friend... Find a reputable breeder and get some nice healthy fish. You will soon be as hooked as the rest of us...
HTH
peter

[Alight]

One thing that will help prevent the fouling a bit, is to get rid of the gravel in the tank. That way the Discus can more easily find all of the food, and you can more easily see that it's there and siphon it off.

Discus don't need the gravel, and it serves as a breeding place for bacteria that can weaken or kill your fish.

I don't think this was the problem for the two that didn't make it, but it could have contributed indirectly by causing more fouling and causing you to do the water change.

Your pH level increase is due to outgassing of CO2, so you do have a significant amount of dissolved CO2 in your tap water. However, this alone probably did not kill your fish. I'm guessing that O2 is also low in your tap water, and that both of these factors (low O2, high CO2) and some underlying problem (gill flukes, or other gill problems??) combined to cause their demise.

As you know, water change, water change, water change, is also the mantra (even more so) for Discus. Sounds like you should get some aerated central water aging system in place for all of the water changes you will be making.

I've bred both angels and discus, and discus ARE different than angels. Healthy ones, though, are no more fragile than angels. The biggest difference I noticed was the intolerance to nitrates, and the inability to live well with parasites (tapeworms, nematodes, etc.). Nematodes don't affect angels much, and ditto with tapeworms. They can have them, but you might never know.

[hexed]

Gino,
It is easier for discus to adjust from 7.0 to 7.5. If your PH was 7.5 and overnight it lowered to 6.5 then that would be bad. So your PH wasn't the problem. Like suggested here, the two BD were most likely sick before you got them. :( Discus at LFS do not get the proper care. They are fed once a day and cleaned once a week which is really bad and on top of that if there is a sick one in the tank, there it stays til it unfortunately dies :(
You can turn them around by removing all the gravel in your tank and giving them lots of daily water changes of 50% and feed at least 3 times a day but 4-5 small feedings are best. Again I always tell people to do the water changes at night so the food isn't sitting around all night long.
Even though you use a python, place the end at the top of the tank and let it slash as it fills. I posted a pic under "Water Works" in the thread "My Tap Water Changes" This will release any gas (CO2) in the tap water.
Frank

[Ginoinchicago]

Thanks everybody for your kind words and advice. I will take all of into consideration when working with these guys. They are very lonely in the 75 right now. Since I just got them Sunday, would it be wise to move them to a smaller tank like a 20H? Or should I wait a week or so? I want to get some more discus, and am Considering going to see Butch. I hear he has some great discus. And since technically my guys are still in Qt I can't put them all in the same 75. No sense keeping these little guys all by themselves in a 75 for the next few weeks, and its a lot more work for me too.

[Ginoinchicago]

Since my last post, I have gotten better and read a lot on the forum here abut proper care and the like. I did get some more discus and they are now all free and clear of QT and enjoying their fairly young planted tank. I have more plants in qt right now before they will go into tha tank. I am not taking any more chances.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/281fb1bb.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/8308a846.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/19241077.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/CheezyRider/f70f57a1.jpg
My rainbows are spawning on that plant in the corner on a daily basis!! :-) One day I will give them their own tank and see if I can raise them.

[nolefan]

My rainbows(boesmani) spawn all the time and the fry are tough to raise they are microscopic when first hatched have not been successful yet.By the way good luck with your discus.

[wolfbane]

Aw! They are cute lil' guys! Good luck with this batch. This site has helped me learn sooo much!

[N_E_time]

Sorry to hear you lost some fish............

I use tap water myself as I have gone back and forth about storing water and decided to go right from the tap. The most important thing to remember with tap water is temperature, I constantly check the temp when I'm filing tanks it can ahange quickly and if theres enough temp difference in can cause problems. Next thing is I try not to do water changes when I dont have extra time to fill the tanks slower. With tap water I like to fill slower than if I was using stored water.