cardinal tetra question

[RyanH]

Hi all,

I've been losing some Cardinal Tetras lately and I thought I would post the symptoms here to see if anyone could help me out.

They develop white lumps at the base of the tail and then they will start to roll over and swim upside down. After a day or two they die. I have no idea what it is but I thought it might be fungal or bacterial.

Any ideas what is causing this and how it can be treated? They are in my 150 with my wild Discus and Rams. I haven't had any problems with my other fish.

What I do know is that catching them would be damn difficult so I'd like to treat the entire 150 if it's not too expensive and doesn't harm the other fish.

thanks!
-Ryan

[-gb-]

I don’t have any advice on how to cure the Cardinal Tetras. I’m sure someone here will help.

In the meantime I would suggest taking them all out of the tank asap. You can either cull the entire bunch or treat them in a quarantine tank. Anything else isn’t worth the risk. IMO

When it comes to my community fish in my tank, if I see any signs of anything short of 100% health the fish is culled. At the end of the day it’s anything and everything to protect my Discus.

[ShinShin]

Ryan,

I had that same problem some years back. I used naladixic acid with some success.

Mat

[RyanH]

The Cardinals and Discus have been together for close to a year now. They all came from the same seller. The Cardinals just started getting sick in the last week or two.

I totally agree with you on protecting my Discus. But I also have a fairly significant investment in the Cardinals as well. These aren't just cheap LFS throwaways. This is a school of nearly fifty really nice 2" Cardinal Tetras. I'd rather not cull them until I know what I'm dealing with.

I've also certainly not ruled out moving them but if it turns out that it's an easily remedied problem, I'd rather just treat them in the 150. In addition, if the Discus have been exposed to something that poses a danger to them I'll need to treat them anyway.

Athough I'm obviously concerned for the well-being of my fish, I prefer to make a careful, informed decision that is based on good information, not snap judgements.

[cobaltblue]

Hey Ryan, i have had the same issues with my cardinals in my community tank with discus. I was never able to cure them once they had the white lumps at the tail, but i can say they dont seem to pass anything on to the other fish. I was told it is a tetra disease, that is specific to them. I know we dont like to take chances with our discus, that is for sure. Unforunately, i just cull the diseased cardinals out when this happens. I will follow your thread closely though to see if you come up with anything. Good luck.

[ShinShin]

I kept the cardinals I had with several species of apistoes and catfish. The disease never spread to any other species, but was quite lethal to the cardinals. Perhaps if I would have had other tetra species in the tank, they would have been susceptable, but I had never seen it before in any other tetras that I had previously.

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Ryan~

Talk to Jason ( Kiwi ) I think he posted a article re Cardinals over at SC~





http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_5_140.gif

[AmberC]

Well I have no clue but I hope you can figure it out. Whats the life span on those little guys anyways? Could it be old age? (Just pondering.. I'm probably way off. :) )
Amber

[ShinShin]

No, Amber, age isn't the case. This is a very deadly disease cardinals are susceptable to getting.

Mat

[AmberC]

No, Amber, age isn't the case. This is a very deadly disease cardinals are susceptable to getting.

Mat

Oh.. ok. Sorry your cardinals are sick Ryan. I hope you can get it cleared up. 50 is a lot! I bet thats a beautiful school!
Amber

[Alight]

I lost a few to something similar a while back. Seemed to be associated with neon tetra disease (obvious neon tetra disease in neons in the same batch). This is caused by a muscular parasite that exits from the fish periodically. Cardinal tetras can survive this disease, but are weakened, and some may die. Other fish supposedly can get the disease, but it either isn't fatal in these fish, or they just don't get it as easily.

As Shin-shin says, naladixic acid has been used on this disease. How well it works is open to question.

After I lost a few cardinals, the condition seemed to stabilize, and no more of the cardinals got the disease. Some survived, but have scars (this was more than a year ago and the survivors are still around).

[Ardan]

This may be neon disease or false neon disease. Hard to diferentiate. (sp?)
In false neon disease it is bacterial and may be treated with antibiotic, possibly. "nifurpirinol" according to my book.
In neon disease it is caused by a parasite, a sporozoan, a single celled animal that rapidly reproduces and spreads many millions of spores into the water.
Both of these are only infective to Characins (tetras)
This is spread by getting into the food and then into the intestines. the amoeba like animal spreads through the body and forms groups into cysts in the muscles.
Symptoms = 1st a pale area forms beneath the dorsal fin.
this can turn into a lump or cyst
then comes erratic swimming
then death

this is from a book I have by Dr. Neville Carrington

treatment for the sporozoa may be done with an antiparasitic. But he is not sure.
This is similar to chilonodella organism according to him.

Possibly high heat may help??
But he recommends removing any infected fish so they stop spreading the spores.
He also says using peat may help??? Maybe lowering the ph?
also using a diatom filter to remove spores.

I have several other sources to check, I will post more if I find something.

Sorry to hear this Ryan.

hth
Ardan

this sounds like what you are dealing with

[Ardan]

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/neondisease.htm

here it does mention nalidixic acid as a possible treatment as Larry suggested.
the spores will always be in the tank until you tear it down.

Ardan

[Ardan]

http://www.aquariumpharm.com/disease/neondisease.html

furan 2 may help if bacterial

[RyanH]

I do fairly regular PP treatments on the tank. Maybe I should do another.

I would think that it would kill the spores if indeed this is what the affliction is.

The only real difference in the symptoms I'm seeing is that the white lumps are forming at the base of the tail, not under the dorsal fin.

Thanks for the help Ardan. :)

[Ardan]

You re welcome. The lumps can form anywhere if I understand it right.

This is also talked a bit in Untergassers Handbook of fish disease and in A to Z of tropical fish diseases by Burgess, Bailey, and Excell.

the pp may help
Ardan

[RyanH]

Based on what I've read and seen, the most likely culprit is Pleistophora hyphessobryconis or neon tetra disease. It has no known treatment.

One thing that I found strange is that some authors claimed that Cardinals were immune to the disease. Others say they can be affected. Obviously this is something that people haven't nailed down one way or the other and the authors are speculating and don't really know for sure.

I'm going to sleep on it and poke around on the internet a bit more but as of right now I'm leaning toward removing and culling the entire school of Cardinals and hitting my tank with potassium permanganate. :(

My other concern is that, according to the authors of the articles that I've read, this disease can affect Angels. In my mind, this means it's likely that it can also affect Discus. :mad:

Thanks for the input everyone. I really appreciate it. :)

[Alight]

Ryan, from what I understand, the parasite, Pleistophora hyphessobryconis, is not that easily transmitted, and requires the fish to eat the parasite. Since Cardinal tetras rarely dig into the mulm at the bottom of the tank, and Discus tanks are kept pretty clean, these things may not spread.

From what I can tell, the cardinals I have came with the disease, and no more of them have been infected in 15 months I've had them.

Several of mine got lumps near the base of the tail, but others got lumps elsewhere. Some survivors have scars at the base of the tail, and have been otherwise healthy for more than a year.

What I can't figure out in your case, is how they got the disease so long after you acquired them? This would suggest some active form of the disease, rather than an initial infection before you got them, and then no further activity.

I'd probably remove all of them to a quarantine tank, take out all the obviously infected ones, and watch the rest and see what happens.

They are really hard to remove from a planted discus tank, so hopefully yours is not planted!

The only way seems to be to darken the room, wait and hour or so, then try to net them while spotting them with a flashlight (takes two people).

Al Light

[RyanH]

Thanks for the advice. :)

As to why it's popping up now, I'm at a loss as well. The only fish I've added to the tank since I set it up last winter are 8 German Blue Rams. I'm not sure if they can be carriers of the disease or not.

Yeah, catching them is going to be a colossal nightmare. :(

I'm going to have to drain the tank down at least 2/3 and I'm going to have to remove the driftwood. There are plants in the tank but they are in pots. They'll have to go too.

The Discus are not going to be very happy with me.

[brewmaster15]

Ryan,
Sorry to hear you are having troubles with your cardinals.. All the literature suggests that The cardinals would get this ailment by eating it in dead fish or ingesting a live food carrying the sporozoan....


.Theres no known hosts...the disease progresses laterally...from fish to fish. Because of this , Its not likely that its been with the cardinals for the last year with no illness....but introduced more recently>>suspect any fish added...Its known to affect many...Not just angels...I would also look to any plants that were added.

One thing to note.. You mentioned you used PP alot in that tank.. In labs...PP and Hydrogen Peroxide are actually used to activate The spores of this disease:(

Best suggestion...remove any affected fish...

-al