Chloramines question..

[AmberC]

Ok.. so some of you know this already but I had the water company come out and test my water. My chloramines (chlorine + ammonia) are reading at 4.4. I am using prime when I change my water but I believe this is why I was having so many problems with my discus.

My question is.. even tho I'm using prime and the ammonia is not toxic because of this.. how will I know if something is wrong in the tank because I still get that ammonia reading with the prime? Generally its reading at .25ppm or .50ppm. I've never seen it go higher.. so if it goes higher.. is that when I should worry. In case my question wasn't clear...

"WHEN should I worry?"

Because even tho I've had several of you tell me over and over that I'm using the prime so I'm GOING to still see an ammonia reading but its ok.. its still hard not to worry when I see the water turn light green in my sample vile.

[Westie]

A scientist I am not but, I can lend my experience in that I guess my east bay water is pretty bad. The water company sent us notice that it will kill our fish because of the "mines". Last year I was in the hospital and on the couch for a while. I have a tank at work, 25g, and the ladies at work were pouring straight tap water in my tank for 4 weeks and, I lost two tetras. Which probably ran into the glass and killed themselves anyways. But, I use water conditioner none the less. Sorry, I'm no help. Just a lender of .02

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Amber~

I used Prime for a long time and I never had ammonia readings.....I do not know your entire situation, however ~ If I did have ammonia readings I would look for something else going on ~


When To Worry? Now, that is The Million Dollar Question!



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[White Worm]

Prime does state on their website that you may get inaccurate ammonia readings. The discus will tell you when something is wrong. I believe prime dissapates after 24 hours and you can take readings then but you have to take into consideration that the fish have added to the ammonia by then and some has already been converted by the cycle. When to worry? I worry when I see them not eating or acting right, maybe not coming to see me in excitement when I approach the tank 2-3 times a day during feedings.

[AmberC]

Prime does state on their website that you may get inaccurate ammonia readings. The discus will tell you when something is wrong. I believe prime dissapates after 24 hours and you can take readings then but you have to take into consideration that the fish have added to the ammonia by then and some has already been converted by the cycle. When to worry? I worry when I see them not eating or acting right, maybe not coming to see me in excitement when I approach the tank 2-3 times a day during feedings.


Yes.. I do watch them closely, but right now there is a lot of damage from before I was using the prime.. I was just using stresscoat. There is a lot of fin damage which looked for a while like there was a lot of regenerative growth on the fish, but then it almost looked like its getting worse again on my BD's. They all have healthy appetites, they come right to me and will even let me pet them with no probs. I guess what it comes down to is just use my best judgement?
Amber

[Mr. Limpet]

Here is a link to the Kordon website.

http://www.novalek.com/kpds.htm

I realize that this is for Amquel and not for Prime, but there is a ton
of good information on test kits and biological filtration and other stuff.
Well worth a look around.

It explains the diferent Ammonia testing types, and which will read false positives with Chloramine removers.

It may be as simple as changing to another type of test kit to solve your problem. It may not. But you will learn a lot of new stuff.

Have fun,
PAul.

[White Worm]

Do you use salt? I find that 2-3 Tbspns per 10g really helps fins or cloudy eyes. I always keep about 1-2 Tbspns in there and replace what i remove at wc's of salt in my aquariums and seems to help with minor probs. Plus you can 2X prime dose, I always do just in case and I beleive the site says you could go all the way to 5X dose but i dont think i would do that.

[ronrca]

Initially right after a wc, you will get false ammonia readings but if you are using the dosage as indicated on the bottle, no worries. The important factor is that your bio is sufficent and efficient to handle this ammonia plus any additional ammonia from your discus. I would test your ammonia levels before and after wc's to compare.

HTH

[Alight]

Amber, if you have a holding tank, you can get your ammonia readings down to zero before you add the water to your tanks. Just put a nice big, cycled sponge filter in your holding tank, and it will chew up the ammonia and ammonium in less than 24 hours. (You'll need to add the prime to the holding tank but won't need to add anymore before you add the water to your tanks). If it were me, and I was having the problems you're describing, I'd definitely do this.

This will result in nitrate readings (probably under 5 ppm) in the water you'll be using for your tanks, but this is much better than ammonia or ammonium for that matter, too.

[AmberC]

Thanks Paul.. I'll check out the link.

Mikscus.. I do use salt, but was told that salt can be bad after too long too and can actually cause more stress. I was told use it if I need to, but not for a long period of time. Plus the salt doesn't seem to be doing anything for the fins right now.

ronrca..I do test the water before and after a W/C and there will be no ammonia before and when I add the water back in.. it will read .25 normally. I always add the prime before adding the water back in though. Actually.. I keep a log. I have a log for each of my three tanks and I log it every day.

Alight... Not sure if that is an option for me, but I can see if I can work something out. Thanks for the idea :)

Amber

[CAGE-RATTLER]

I believe i read before that the only way to get accurate readings when using Prime is to use the seachem test kit since thats who also make Prime.

But i guess that could also just be a market ploy to purchase theyre test kits?

Ive been thinking of switching to the Amquel + because i believe i read that it doesnt give you false readings.


Prime dissapates in 24 hours????

I didnt know that ............ and since i do a WC every 48 hours ..... i guess i should do a test on my storage water after the 48 hour period before the WC to see where its at then.

[pcsb23]

Amber,

I guess judgement is called for when using water conditioners and when to worry. I know that you observe you fish well, that is the real key. Bank the experiences and call on them when a situation develops. All of us have problems from time to time, most caused by ourselves, some not.

The key here is that the ammonia gets locked up and the bio filter will break it down. That said it is also important to understand that ammonia or ammonium when broken down becomes nitrIte. Now with a fully established bio filter this isn't a problem as it will convert the nitrIte into nitrAte instantly. However you have been having challenges getting your bio filter up to strength and with ammonia in your water supply the problem is compounded. You are correct when stating discus should not be kept with added salt for prolonged periods of time. It will eventually lead to stress, mainly due to the way they regulate water in their bodies I believe.

I understand the frustration and concern when seeing the ammonia test go green, normally green is good but not this time!

I do not advocate adding anything to the water, be it meds or other treatments, unless there is a need and a purpose. Salt falls into this category. However until we are convinced your bio filters are up to speed the salt will mitigate the effects of nitrIte poisoning. For the fin damage I would recommend melafix, particulalry as it will have no real effect on your bio filter and it can be used in conjuction with many other treatments.

There are many reasons to consider RO water and re-mineralising salts, I can think of no better reason than having ammonia in my supply.

As for anyone who constatntly keeps salt in their discus aquarium I have to ask why and what for? If they are healthy and well give them clean water and good food, they will do the rest. Don't mess with it!. The name of this forum gives everyone a clue SIMPLY Discus. Keep it simple.

No one can teach experience, it has to be earned, however we can benefit from others experiences and we should use them to assist in our decision making.

I believe you are on the right track and that you will get a handle on the situation. Keep asking the intelligent questions.

All the best,
Paul.

[ronrca]

Amen to that Paul!

Imo, Id rather not be adding nitrates right off the start from my wc's but rather have the bio do the conversions over time instead. Just a personal opinion.


ronrca..I do test the water before and after a W/C and there will be no ammonia before and when I add the water back in.. it will read .25 normally. I always add the prime before adding the water back in though. Actually.. I keep a log. I have a log for each of my three tanks and I log it every day.
Wow! That is great! I wish I were as diligent with keeping logs on my tanks as well. That is great to hear. Keep it up. :thumbsup: I only keep logs when experimenting, making changes or when problems occur.

[Ardan]

Hi Amber,
If you want to accurately test for ammonia using prime, you need to use the "gas exchange test kit" by seachem.
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime_faq.html
and yes it states that prime dissipates from the water in 24 hours.

Amquel can only be used once in 24 hours.

Amquel also reduces oxygen in the water.
also you have to watch as you can overdose this product.
IMO Prime is safer
check out the FAQ's at that link.
IMO if I were using prime, I would get the test kit to be safe.

hth
Ardan

[AmberC]

Thank you for all the info everyone. Its all very helpful.
One thing about the Prime dissipating after 24 hrs. Does this mean if you aren't able to do a w/c after 24 hrs you should add more prime, or is 24 hrs enough to allow the bio filter to break down anything that is in the water? The chlorine isn't "broken down" is it, therefore its still in the water? Just a little confused on that.
Thanks!
Amber

[Cosmo]

Amber,

If your bio filter is working properly, the ammonia should be eaten away before the Prime dissipates.

Jim

[AmberC]

Amber,

If your bio filter is working properly, the ammonia should be eaten away before the Prime dissipates.

Jim

Right, and it does.. so there is nothing to worry about then?

[Cosmo]

lol... you know what they say Amber... Never say Never ... :D

As far as the Prime dissipating before the filter eats the ammonia... probably no need to worry :p (see first paragraph) lol

I'd say to keep a close eye on it, but, I already know you do :)

Jim

[Ardan]

The chlorine was neutralized when adding prime and is gone.

After 24 hours of adding prime, you can test the water for ammonia with any type of test kit. If there is ammonia, you know the biofilter is not up to snuff, or you are feeding too much. Then you can do a wc and use prime in the new water again.
I bet your filter is doing pretty good by now though. So test the water before you do a daily wc if you've waited 24 hours.
hth
Ardan

[hexed]

Amber,
I wish I had known about you using StressCoat. Stress coat contains aloe and that will clog your sponge filters. I was told this by my LFS when I went to buy my conditioner. I always used NovAqua but now I gave the AmQuel plus a try. I always use more then I need and have had no problems. When I switched to it they seemed to fade in color but now they are OK with it. I really don't need to use AmQuel because I have never had problems with my water. I bought it because I got a gallon for $20 shipped. I perfer NovAqua over all of them.
Frank

[AmberC]

Ok Thanks you guys :)

Frank... I've already gotten yelled at big time for the stress coat. First in a post and then privately by Marie. I'll never touch the stuff again! ;)

Thanks for the info Frank :)

Amber

[ronrca]

One thing about the Prime dissipating after 24 hrs.

Regarding Prime dissipating after 24 hours, first I have heard about it. I would like to see more info on that and look into it. But until then, I would take it with a grain of salt!

[Kindredspirit]

As for anyone who constatntly keeps salt in their discus aquarium I have to ask why and what for?

All the best,
Paul.


There are some that do this, Paul ~ I have read and they have told me that they, on a continuing basis, always add salt after every wc ~

Obviously, you disagree?


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[AmberC]

Regarding Prime dissipating after 24 hours, first I have heard about it. I would like to see more info on that and look into it. But until then, I would take it with a grain of salt!

ronrca ~~~ I just called Seachems tech support and asked if it dissipates after 24 hrs and his reply was


Between 24-48 hrs Prime will dissipate

Amber

[AmberC]

There are some that do this, Paul ~ I have read and they have told me that they, on a continuing basis, always add salt after every wc ~

Obviously, you disagree?


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Marie ~~~ I believe its because they ARE freshwater fish. While they like having salt in the water from time to time to help with gill function, stress or some other issue, they ARE freshwater fish and over time (undetermined how long) the salt can actually cause more harm than good. This is probably another one of those "debates" in the fish world and everyone has their own opinion on it. What I just described is what makes sense to me.
Amber

[ronrca]

ronrca ~~~ I just called Seachems tech support and asked if it dissipates after 24 hrs and his reply was



Amber

Sweet! Thanks a million Amber! :thumbsup: I didnt even have a chance to check into it yet....;)

[White Worm]

Its not like we are dumping in gallons of salt. I keep maybe 1 tbsp per 10g in there and replace only what I take out. I have heard it helps if you ever have nitrite spike or helps gill function and equilibrium. I just feel that it also works as a kinda preventative for cloudy eyes and fin problems. I havent had any problems since I have been doing this for about a year so what the heck. When someone proves that this is harmful, I will discontinue. Otherwise, right now, i have had no illnesses, darkness, spirals, not eating, etc. Every discus I have seems pretty healthy right now with no symptoms or sickness so I think that I will not go changing anything. Most discus hobbyists realize that when you have a good ritual that is working very good, DONT CHANGE IT. :D

[AmberC]

Its not like we are dumping in gallons of salt. I keep maybe 1 tbsp per 10g in there and replace only what I take out. I have heard it helps if you ever have nitrite spike or helps gill function and equilibrium. I just feel that it also works as a kinda preventative for cloudy eyes and fin problems. I havent had any problems since I have been doing this for about a year so what the heck. When someone proves that this is harmful, I will discontinue. Otherwise, right now, i have had no illnesses, darkness, spirals, not eating, etc. Every discus I have seems pretty healthy right now with no symptoms or sickness so I think that I will not go changing anything. Most discus hobbyists realize that when you have a good ritual that is working very good, DONT CHANGE IT. :D

I was just explaining to Marie why I think some say dont add salt unless you need it. If thats what works for you, by all means continue. Like I said I think this is one of those "debated" topics. Hope you took no offense to anything I said. You seemed a little deffensive here.
Amber

[White Worm]

Nope....Just replying to paul who asked why. In any topic, you will hear alot of people doing it one way and then if you ask the same question 2 months later, the majority will be doing it the opposite way. Some things are always a debate on here. No worries, you didnt offend anyone :D

[pcsb23]

There are some that do this, Paul ~ I have read and they have told me that they, on a continuing basis, always add salt after every wc ~

Obviously, you disagree?


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Yes, Marie I strongly disagree with this. Discus naturally come from incredibly soft acidic water, have evolved over thousands of years to cope witht those parameters. We have only been interfering with there evolution for some 80 or so years. Their natural water has a TDS of around 8 or 10, which we cannot emulate. I tend to run my main tanks at a TDS of 75, I'm in the process of trying to lower even that. 1 teaspoon of salt in a gallon ups the tds by 1,800 or so!

Salt has its place and its uses, but one of them is not to keep discus in constantly.

Paul.

[pcsb23]

Its not like we are dumping in gallons of salt. I keep maybe 1 tbsp per 10g in there and replace only what I take out. I have heard it helps if you ever have nitrite spike or helps gill function and equilibrium. I just feel that it also works as a kinda preventative for cloudy eyes and fin problems. I havent had any problems since I have been doing this for about a year so what the heck. When someone proves that this is harmful, I will discontinue. Otherwise, right now, i have had no illnesses, darkness, spirals, not eating, etc. Every discus I have seems pretty healthy right now with no symptoms or sickness so I think that I will not go changing anything. Most discus hobbyists realize that when you have a good ritual that is working very good, DONT CHANGE IT. :D
Mike,

You have to make your own judgement calls in this hobby. If its working for you then I am genuinely pleased. There is nothing better than people having success, and I enjoy their success too!

You are correct about protection against nitrIte spikes but a properly setup aquarium should not have one of these, indeed if the aquarium is observed daily and a filter should fail, the efficacy of the salt will be no less dimished if it is added when needed.

I use 1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallons as a medicinal strength, sometimes I go as high as 2! Each to their own.

I never keep my discus long term with salt in the aquarium. When I first started keeping tropical fish it was the done thing to keep aquarium salt in the tanks. Most of my fish - not discus at this time - lived for between 9 months and 18 months, to the extent that I thought and belived that was there natural life span. It wasn't until I met a guy who owns and runs a lfs in Portsmouth who showed me some of his fish that were 4 and 5 years old! Then I started to understand the relationship bewteen long term stressors and water quality and life expectancy.

Take care,
Paul.

[White Worm]

Very interesting about long term life expectancy.

but a properly setup aquarium should not have one of these, indeed if the aquarium is observed daily and a filter should fail

Unfortunately, by the numerous tank problems and fish sickness reported here, most are not as commited and dedicated as others or just havent worked out the kinks yet. I agree that everyones process in this hobby is designed for the individual. Those that think they have done it right or are doing it right are thinking from the standpoint of other types of fish. Of course, discus are not quite like other fish. Even with the best tank setup, bad things happen even to the experts. I'm sure this opinion could go 50/50 because I have heard alot of people of use it on a normal basis. Maybe we could do one of those cool Polls again? I havent seen one lately. This is a very enjoyable hobby once you get the basics and things are going good.

[pcsb23]

Mike,

There are alot of new people coming into the hobby, which I am pleased about, I wish resources like Simply had been around when I started, how many fish would not have died needlessly?? We all amke mistakes and we all have equipment failures from time to time. Observation is so important as it gives you early warning, once you 'know' your fish and tanks, anything different is worth investigating. I personally don't think discus are tha difficult to keep - once you understand their needs that is!! I find them to be pretty damned tough too!

Like I say, if you've found a method that works for you and you are comfortable with don't change it without good reason.

Take care,
Paul.

[White Worm]

Thats a good point Paul, you have to know your discus and your tanks. Hard to describe to someone that hasnt done it yet. As soon as I approach the tank for feeding or just a visit, I can tell that everyone is doing great or at least acting normal (like themselves). I dont think they are that dificult really, just different from other fish and as soon as you understand a few particular needs, they are fantastic pets and alot of fun. I just enjoy this hobby more when I get to pay more attention to the discus instead of sickness, water problems, etc. Once you get a good schedule, you should have very few issues. What about that poll,? I would just be curious to who uses and who doesnt and when and why. I do wish I had come across this site before I owned about 10 discus which all perished with the advice and bad quality fish from LFS. I dont really know if salt is helping much but it has become habit and I have always added a little back after wc. Maybe it is just superstitious and things are good just because I have learned from my mistakes. I dont know but I enjoy my problem free discus hobby for now. If things change, I will look at my process further. thanks, Mike:D