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View Full Version : Hello from the Sonoran Desert



sleonard
03-04-2006, 09:07 PM
Hi all, I'd like to introduce myself since I have been lurking here for a while now reading through as much of the forum before starting to post my questions. My name is Scott, I live in Tempe, AZ, am a Systems Analyst at a local community college, and I have been infected with a serious case of Discus Fever :)

I have an extensive background in electronics and one of my other hobbies/interests is whole house media distribution and home automation. I plan on eventually adding my tanks into my automation designs for when I start building a house (and possibly a nice size shed/barn/workshop type building in the back for growing a fish room) I also love flyfishing (kind of difficult in a desert :( ), camping, and homebrewing (ummmh, beer!).

The story of my falling in love with Discus is actually a very sad story so I'll spare myself and all of you with the details but some of it is integral to how my affair with keeping aquariums and my recent introduction to Discus came about.

I was first introduced to keeping aquariums by my best friend Mike about 15 years ago. Although his full time career was as a psychologist/counselor he had be an avid aquarist for nearly 20 years and ran a small retail fish store for many years on the side. His main specialty at the time was African cichlids and set me up with a 55 gal. Malawi tank which I had for many years and even was breeding enough to make it pay for it's upkeep with trade in food and supplies at the LFS.

Although Africans always occupied the majority of his tanks he also raised and bred a large variety of species including Discus. Several years ago he was diagnosed with cancer and during his long fight has had to slowly scale down his aquarium addiction. Last fall he could no longer keep up humping the the large quantities of RO water and shut down his two Discus tanks. One was a 125 g. that had 6 large adults. He converted it to an African tank and sold the Discus to his Oncologist (as well as setting up a new 70 g. tank for them in the doctors office. The second was a 29 gal. tank that had three 2-2 1/2" pigeonblood juvi's which he gave to me with the understanding that one of them would got to the doctors tank when they were full grown.

I set that one up, buying a stand, top, and light and used the Aquaclear filter he gave me with the tank. The tank setup went off without a hitch and all 3 were happy and healthy for about 10 weeks when they all got bloat that killed the smallest one. I treated w/ Metronadazole and the other 2 survived and were once again happy and healthy.

Mike had also given me an 80 gal tank but I couldn't afford to set it up with all the Christmas spending I had to do but did start buying the components a little at a time for several months. I got a nice oak stand and canopy, hinged glass, an Ehiem 2126 Pro II Thermofilter as well as some really nice molded fake driftwood and bulk sand for substrate. By the end of January I was finally able to start it up. I used some filter material from the 29 g tank for quicker bio buildup and filled it with 100% RO from a machine at the corner Circle K. I let it cycle for 24 hours to get it up to temp and then transferred the 2 discus plus a swordtail and 2 baby plecos to the 80. I monitored the tank closely with some 5 in 1 test strips several times a day and everything started up well.

After 2 weeks I noticed that both Discus seemed to be acting strange but was already late for work and left. That evening I go a call from my son saying that another discus had died. I brought Mike over and examined the tank and the remaing Discus. We determined that there had been a large drop in Ph and added 2 pitchers of tap water slowly. The Ph recovered and so did my last discus. He has remained happy and healthy looking and comes out to see me whenever I enter the room.

Mike had told me that because of the large tank to fish ratio that I should not do any water changes for several weeks and then start doing a 25% change every 2 weeks until I increased the stocking. Indeed, my Nitrate and nitrite level remained at zero and now nitrate is barely starting to show. I did change 15 gal after three weeks just so I could vacuum the sand. I had been overfeeding but I now use only a half of a bloodworm or brineshrimp cube twice a day and I may have to figure out how to cut them in thirds. I am also going to take the emphatic advice of many of the forum members and remove the sand as soon as I can and have a barebottom with just the fake driftwood for some comfort structure.

While cleaning the gravel last week and stirring up the detritus in the process I noticed a small, white, hair thin worm wiggling around in the current. I searched the SimplyDiscus.com information on diseases and medications and my best guess is that it was Capillaria. None of the fish are showing any symptoms but I am treating the tank w/ Metronadazinol and am going to follow a quarantine regimen of medications I also found there in order to insure that the tank becomes disease free. I am also going to remove the two plecos and replace them with a couple of bristlenose. When the Pigeonblood gets large enough I will order a box of nice discus (I am looking at fish from Rocky Mountain Discus and Discus Madness. Haven't made up my mind yet.) and give the Pigeonblood to Mike's doctors tank. This should allow me more than enough time to get this tank in shape for the expensive fish I'll be ordering.

One thing that is happening right now is that the Ph has risen to above 7.4 and I am unable to bring it down. I am especially puzzled since I used 100% RO water with about a half dose of Kent liquid RO Right and Discus Essentials. I should have a Ph of no more than 7. The 15 gallon WC brought it down to 7.2 briefly but it was back to 7.4 after 24 hours. BTW, comparison to an LFS water test showed that the Ph indicator on my test strips was way off so I bought a continous use electronic monitor by Pinpoint from Marine Depot. I also tried Ph down and that had no effect, Ph is still 7.4. I am not worried that this will harm the fish but I don't fully understand why my Ph has stabilized at 7.4 using pure RO water and a small amount of discus buffer. It could only be from two thing, the sand is raising Kh or my air pump is offgassing too much dissolved Co2. I just turned off the air pump and will start monitoring the Ph closely to see if there is any change. I was using the airpump in an effort to supplement O2 since I am using a closed canister filter so I will also closely monitor respiration as well.

Mike was transferred to Hospice care today and he is leaving me his remaining tanks and aquariums supplies. There is another 80 gal central american planted tank. These all do well in our local tapwater and my neighbor has an unused hex tank he wants to set up. I am going to give him these fish and help him set it up and then set up the 80 for Discus. There is also a 125 and a custom 90 that is very tall. Both have Africans and I will leave them African for now but eventually the 125 will also be for discus and I'll keep the best of the Africans for the 90. I'm also going to put the Ehiem canister on the 90 as it suits the africans better and start using Aquaclear power filters for all the discus tanks.

Since I'm on a narrow budget, it will take some time to get both 80's and the 125 setup, running, and full of juvi discus so I am going to continue to hump RO water for now but want to setup my own RO unit continously supplying fresh RO water to the discus tanks while the RO waste water will continuosly supply fresh hard water to the africans. Tank waste water will go to the flowerbeds.

These 4 large tanks and the 29 are going to require some very creative living room rearrangement and won't be viable for long so I have broke down and started looking at purchasing either a fix-er-upper on a decent parcel of land (1 acre would be nice, 2 even nicer) or just an empty parcel and build a house. In either case I'm planning on building a large shed/barn/workshop type of building split between a dedicated fish room and a workshop but that's a loooong ways down the road.

In any case, I'm patient and dedicated to this wonderful new hobby of mine and for right now just intent on learning the basics of Discus care. I have a feeling that I'll be learning a lot from the great people here and hope that I'll be able to contribute back to this community.

Oh, and I'm sorry for the long winded introduction, I can get carried away and I wanted to give everyone an accurate picture of how far along I am and what I have learned so far.


Scott

mrsportys
03-04-2006, 09:14 PM
Scott, is your water hardness so high the reason your using 100% RO water?

Jim

Discusgeo2
03-04-2006, 09:22 PM
Scott welcome to Simply Discus and the great Discus Hobby. There are allot of people here that will give you a wealth of information to help you get thru this hobby. If you need any local help I can give that to you. My name is George Garcia and I live in Phoenix near 35th Ave and Deer Valley Rd. I can help you first off by telling you that you really don't need to be raising your Discus in R.O water here in the Valley. I have over 200 Discus and they are fine in Phoenix tap water. The only thing I use my R.O system on is my breeders which I have 10 of. If you would like to see young fry on the sides of the parents I have 2 spawns ranging in age of 3 days to 7 days old. Also I age my water and heat it to 84 degrees in-between water changes. You are more than welcome to come by and visit my setup any time on the weekends or email me for my phone number and address at discusgeo2@netscape.net

George Garcia

inkfam
03-05-2006, 11:43 AM
Scott, Its good to know we have another person in the discus hobby in Arizona! You should get with George Garcia he has a great knowledge and not to mention a huge space of tanks with healthy discus and Blue Rams. I have been there personally and always learn more every time I go over.
I also have my discus in hard AZ water and they are all thriving. The only time I use RO is with my breeders or 50,50 in my planted tank.
By the way, my name is Chris Incardone(Inkfam) and I live in the Mesa area. Well, good luck with all your tanks and discus.

sleonard
03-05-2006, 04:11 PM
Thanks to both of you for the nice welcome. George, I'd love to take you up on that invitation. I'll be busy the next few weekends with my friend Mike, his family, and all the other sad duties involved in this terrible tragedy but as soon as I am able to get some free time I will contact you. Very much interested in seeing your setup.

I'm surprised that Discus can take this AZ liquid rock. It's about as opposite to their natural water as can be but when you're as new to this as I am you learn something every day!

I have read enough to know that discus can adapt to a wide variety of conditions but since I am a beginner I figured the safest course was to follow the strictist advice first and relax my methods as experience shows what I can get away with. (I also like designing and building complex systems so that part of it appealed to me as well).

Again, thank you and I'm looking forward to getting involved in the discus community here in the forums and here in AZ.

Scott

Discusgeo2
03-06-2006, 02:17 AM
Scott where ever time allows you to drop by just let me know. Maybe Chris can have you visit since you two are closer togethere. Chris has some nice Discus, you should see his Blue Diamonds. Scott there are about 8 of us in the Valley and Mike down in Tucson and at one time or another they have all droped by my palce. Now if we could all get togethere on a weekend and see what everyone is doing. I need to go over and see Chris and Mark, they all have new pairs, just let me know when Chris.

sleonard
03-08-2006, 06:31 AM
I think I'll make this thread sort of a blog on my progress as well as a means for getting good advice so here goes another large post :)

It's been a long week and I haven't had much time to devote to my 80 g. tank containing a single Red PB, a single Swordtail, and 2 common plecos. Plans are still to replace the plecos with a single Bristlenose and move the Swordtail. Hopefully in 6 months, when the tanks are ready, I'm ready, and I have the money, I'll order some nice discus.

In the meantime, I'll soon be getting another 80, a tall 90, and a 125. I also have a 29 disinfected and ready to go but no plans for it yet. The 90 and 125 currently have Africans (Malawi) and are healthy running tanks. They will both stay that way for now. The 80 is a healthy running community tank (Neons, Tiger Barbs, etc.) that will be shut down as soon as my neighbor takes the fish and will be the first to be converted to a Discus tank.

The 125 has a stand but I'll have to use the cinder block/2x6 stands the 80 and 90 are on now. The 125 has workable glass tops but will need lighting. The 90 trades its single bulb flourescent with a new triple bulb flourescent I bought for my current discus tank but needs a top and the 80 needs both a top and lighting. Working cycled filters all the way around but will do some upgrading and rearanging. My new Eheim 2126 thermofilter canister will go from my current discus tank to the Africans in the 90. The various power filters (mostly AQ) go to the other 3.

During the next 6 months I will continue learning with the current 80 and single discus and prepare for the conversion of the other 80 and the 125 to discus tanks. I want to first build a central filter and an RO system for the 3 discus tanks. So far I like the idea of simple overflow drains to a sump that triples as central filtration, heating and water changing, and then pumping back to tanks.

I want to design a first stage mechanical filter that has easy access for daily cleanings followed by a large bio filter. The overflows are simple but I don't know how to pump back the appropriate volumes to different sized tanks. I guess I could use one pump split between the 2 80's and another for the 125 or use a single pump and ball valves so that they all get the same % of water flow each hour. Need help here.

I also want to build an RO system for automatic water changing and top off. ((2 x 80) + 125) / 3 = 95 gallons a day if I want a 25% - 30% daily WC. I figure that if I get a 100 - 120 gal. per day unit, have the output split between a small kitchen tank for drinking water/ice machine and the rest going directly in immediately after the last stage of the central filter I'll be good. I'll overflow waste water from before the first stage of the central filter to a flowerbed. The wastewater from the RO unit will be constantly going into the 90 gal. African tank while overflowing its waste water to another flower bed. Boy, those Africans are going to be constantly in fresh new water! Actually, that could be too much. 100 gal of RO means 200-400 gal of RO waste going through a 90 gal. tank. That's about 2-4 complete WC's a day! Maybe I should send most straight to flower beds.


I've now started recording some reliable (test trips suck) stats on both my tap and RO from the machine @ the corner 7-11. I purchased a PinPoint Ph monitor by American Marine and it matched closely to the test tube method my lfs did for me. The test strip was low by a full point! I am now looking for reliable tests for Chloramines, Chlorine, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Co2, O2, Kh, and Gh. Standard tests for now, eventually electronic monitors when they exist for a particular measurement. An LCD readout is easier to read than comparing those small differences in color shades. Any suggestions? What is in Phoenix area tap water?


Ph readings:

Fresh Tap - < 7.8
Aged Tap - (still cup overnight)

Fresh RO - < 6.5
Aged RO - < 6.5 (in capped bottle 1 week, Co2 probably still there)

Tank, no aeration - ~ 7.1
Tank w/ aeration - > 7.8 (Seems there is a lot of Co2, should I age (agitate/aerate) the RO?)


Temps:

Aq. Temp = 86
Aged RO Temp =
Tap Temp = 65-70 (will be much warmer in summer)

Chemistry:

Chloramines - ? (100% RO, shouldn't be any)
Chlorine - ? (100% RO, shouldn't be any)
Ammonia - very low? (2 weeks ago in lfs, can't remember)
Nitrite - 0 (2 weeks ago in lfs)
Nitrate - 0+ (week ago in lfs)
Kh - 8 dKh (142 ppm?)
Gh - 5 dGh (89 ppm?)
O2 - ?
Co2 - ?

My immediate plans for the current 80 gal discus tank:

This weekend remove all the sand and go BB. Only thing in the tank will be a backup heater, temp probes, and a Ph probe. I now have 6 5 g. RO bottles and I will start changing 10 g. per night. I will cycle the bottles so that water going in is 2 days old and room temp. (I figure it works out to about 70 - 75 g. per week since some newer water comes out with the old each night. I'm not doing the math) I will also continue monitoring all stats and see if I can get the Ph down to at least 6.8 and maintain stability. I'll need help here as well.

I know from George Garcia and Chris Incardone (thanks guys) that I can use aged tap water even though it is hard and high Ph but the central filter/RO system is also a way for me to learn about water chemistry and fulfill my affinity for cool gadgets (You ought to see my computers and homemade, networked PVR/media system that I built. Sort of like Tivo on steroids!)

George, I'm looking forward to meeting you and visiting your discus. A few more weekends getting these new tanks moved over here and setup and then I'll give you a call.

Scott