BB .VS. NON BB

[chago09]

Ok I am having a real hard time with this whole decision. My tank is planted but is causing me hell and spending so much money trying to fert plants and deal with that FU$&!NG algae....its all pushing me over the edge. Now bb my only problem is that I feel like the fish are not at home and don't feel happy in a empty glass box. People please give me ideas on how to meet in the middle of the road here. Give me some reasons why I should switch or stay. Like will bb really!!! make my fish grow that much faster and be that much more colorful????Please give me some full tank pics of both sides of the spectrum and if anyone has pix of something in between would be even better. I just want some help with this decision... so please help. Oh and if I go bb I'm gonna have some Flourite for sale lol

[John_Nicholson]

In my opinion if you want to grow the largest, healthest fish possible a BB tank is much easier. If you have to have plants put a few large ones in pots. You would be amazed how good it can look.

-john

[pcsb23]

For growing out discus BB is definitely easiest. Like John says, a few potted plants look great, particularly if you put a very thin layer of light coloured sand on the bottom, either white or sand coloured (ok I know sand is sand coloured but you know what I mean) That can look awesome and is easy to clean and look after. Also one or two bits of driftwood with some annubias or ferns on, undemanding plants that grow slow and look nice, again easy enough to keep clean.

Paul.

[bikhu]

Hi Chago,
this debate goes on over and over and over again. I think it is important to keep a simple premise in mind. The people on the board and in the hobby with many many years of experience raising and breeding Discus keep telling us the same thing: the best way to ensure healthy discus, especially when raising grow outs is with bare bottom tanks. As humans we like to anthropomorphize other living beings and assume their emotions and attachments are the same as ours but lets go the other way for a moment. Would you be happier with internal parasites which cause bloating and constipation? With infections which can cause you to become anorexic and waste slowly until death? Would you be content with external parasites and infections that eat at your flesh and cause legions in your face and body? How much would we enjoy the inability to maintain equilibrium, to keep ourselves upright, to chose path of movement because our internal organs were corrupted and non-operational? How happy is it to live in an environment which is toxic to you and have no ability to change that environment yourself?
Now these examples may seem extreme but to be honest they are not. These are some of the issues that we encounter when our discus are stricken with fungi or flukes or hex or any number of bacterial or parasitic infections or pollutants such as ammonia, nitrites etc. Our predecessors have proven through their experience that one of the best ways to reduce such things if not eliminate them altogether is to contrive an environment which allows us to control the parameters in the simplest ways possible. I tried doing things my own way in the beginning much to my regret and loss of several fish. After following the simplest of guidelines of successful breeders and hobbyists I was finally able to develop systems and regimens that allow me to be successful at keeping these awesome beings healthy and I believe happy.
As for the middle path.. there are many who keep potted plants in their tanks. It is my opinion that the plants and other aesthetics are really there to serve our desires. Discus do not come from lush green environments. Funny we don't want to put a tank with mud and decaying leaves and sticks in our fish rooms or living rooms but it would be more accurate to recreating amazonian conditions.
All of my tanks are bare bottom right now and the fish are the aesthetic value. I do not mean to insinuate that everyone should do what I do. I just know that once I let go of the attachment I had to aquascaping I was able to really enjoy the fish more than ever.
JMHO
HTH and good fortune with your fish.
peter

[chago09]

few questions about sands.... what would be different if I had sand with java fern in it then if i just kept my planted tank?????? what's a good sand to use like can I just use sand from home depot or where should i get white sand??????? When i vacum will i be sucking up sand aswell????

[chago09]

thanx peter I really liked your response. It is OK though for me to leave in two pieces of driftwood and to leave in my cories to keep the bottom clean for me right???What about a shrimp can he stay in BB

[brewmaster15]

I use silica sand from pool supply houses in afew of my tanks...Its a light tan color and inert.

Becareful of sands from home depot or "playsands"many now are Tropical sand...meaning they contain crushed calcareous substrates that will make your pH way too high ..use vinegar as a quick test.. a few drops on the sand....if it foams...don't use it.

BB or substrate? depends on who you ask .. If you ask me.. Roughly 99% of my tanks are bare bottom...That includes my discus, angels, rams, and uaru....if thats worth anything to anyone...glad I could help.:)

-al

[brewmaster15]

Driftwood is fine...can even be beneficial if leaching tannins.

-al

[pcsb23]

How happy is it to live in an environment which is toxic to you and have no ability to change that environment yourself?


Sounds like working and living in London!



Funny we don't want to put a tank with mud and decaying leaves and sticks in our fish rooms or living rooms but it would be more accurate to recreating amazonian conditions.

Plan on doing something similar to this, not mud due to the probs it would cause but similar.

Paul.

[chago09]

so now how in hell do i get all that gravel and flourite out of the tank????????
I have a 29 gallon I can fill up with tank water from the discus tank and keep them there during the clean up but how is the easiest way to remove gravel???? like i need a huge bucket or something lol and scoop it out????

[Condor]

Yeah pretty much:) You can use a net, though it will probably bend. You might need more than one bucket depending on how big your tank is and whether or not you want to keep the gravel. If you do plan on hanging on to it, make sure you wash it good because it will stink.

Adrian

[Condor]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=47851

[Alight]

Be careful removing gravel, unless you remove your fish first. There will be "stuff" in the gravel you do not want to expose your fish to.

If you do it with fish still in the tank, do it a small bit at a time, and try not to disturb too much gravel at at time. Just use a plastic cup and scoop up a couple of plastic cups a day. Eventually, it will be all gone.

There are ways to have a low-tech tank with manageable algae, but it's not easy when growing out discus to their fullest.

You can put some of that fluorite in clay flower pots, and plant some nice swords or other plant in them, and use them in your bare bottom tank. As others suggested, some nice driftwood with anubia and java ferns can look nice. I they get algae covered, you can remove them and grow them emmersed for a while (only the roots covered with water) and the algae will die.

I prefer not to use sand in a grow out tank because it is so much easier to clean the bare bottom. Siphoning is easy and wiping it down is very easy.

But, to each their own preference.

[chago09]

I have read people saying to siphon it out???? how did you pull that off didn't you need a huge hose because some of the flourite pieces look very large??? and if I remove the fish can I just scoop all the gravel out and make as big as mess as I like then after a few hours when it all settles put them back in???? I use two Aqua Clear 70 on my tank and both have two sponges so i think there is a lot of bio filter will I be ok if I just remove it all at once???? i'm afraid if i live them in there and do cup per day everyday i'm gonna make more and more flourite dust go floating around.

[marilyn1998]

When using a potted anubia, sword, java plant in a BB, do you need to change the lights? Or add anything to the pots of plants to keep the plants healthy? I have been reading this thread as I am removing my gravel. I am going to use a small piece of driftwood with 2-3 potted plants and dont want more cleaning problems or added expenses. I would like to keep my bubble curtain as I feel (right or wrong) it adds oxygen to the tank and helps diffuse the CO2.
Thanks!

[chago09]

well the bubble wall will actually make problems with your plants. I know I'm no expert with plants LOL thats why I'm going bb but I do know any bubbling or splashing of filters adds oxygen to water but removes CO2 which would be great in a bb but with real plants you need CO2 because thats what the plants breath and they create Oxygen. Plants are backwards from humans and animals. We breath in oxygen and out CO2 and plants are the other way around. I think I won't have any potted plants because i don't want to have all the same algae problems. thats why i'm leaving the planted and going bb because of algae. I think I may just put some java fern on some wood and thats it. Java fern does not require a lot of light.

[tdr1919]

chago09,
If you dont mind keeping your bottom clean (your tank) then a light colored aquarium sand is fine. You can see any waste, and the discus love foraging through it. I believe you can keep a sand bottom tank in excellent condition, and not have disease or bacteria problems. Do not make it any deeper than 1/4", this way when you vacuum/siphon you get anything that has been buried and you will lose sand when you siphon, dont worry about it. I do not keep any live plants because they (IMO) make it more difficult to keep things in order. I also do not give my fish any live foods, the exception are live brine shrimp. I clean the bottom every day. In my breeding and fry tanks I keep them BB.

- Tom

[White Worm]

Easier, yes, you can always look at simplifying your planted tank. I have seen many that grow beautiful discus without complete BB. Talk with some of the plant guys and they may be able to help with better setups that wont take so much out of you. Even BB collect a little algae once in a while. BB is what I have but just because I dont have the time money or patience for anything further right now but I will move into some plants in the future. i will start with the ones that dont need much help or attention and can do just fine. I also like the plants attached to drift wood.

[chago09]

k so let's say I go bb and now i have no plants left creating oxygen so now do i need some sort of airstone or something. I have two AC 70 filters in my tank so will I need a sponge filter now to create some bubbles??

[White Worm]

Bubbles are not your main source of oxygen. It is the agitation of the surface. As long as you have good surface movement, you should be fine. It never hurts to add some extra air just in case like a sponge filter plus you can always use it later if you need it for QT tank.

[Dave C]

I had flourite & sand at one time. I removed it with a tank full of Discus by siphon. It wasn't that tough.

http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/teardown.htm

btw, there's absolutely no reason why a tank with sand, driftwood & plants tied to wood needs to be toxic. With neglect any tank will be toxic, even bb.

[Alight]

Dave is right and right. If you have coarse flourite, though it will take one large diameter chunk of hose.

Also, sand and pots and drift wood can be kept clean. Just a matter of which you prefer. I figure my non-show tanks should be as easy to take care of as possible--so these are bare bottom, with a few potted plants. My show tank, on the other hand is fully planted, deep gravel and landscaping and now DIY CO2 and soon to be pressure CO2. I spend my aquascaping and trimming tank on this tank, not on the others.

If you do remove your gravel all at once with your fish out of the tank, you should replace essentially all of the water. There is likely to be stuff in the gravel that will deplete the oxygen in any remaining water and release some pretty toxic chemicals, like hydogen sulfide. You'll likely smell at least some of this (rotten eggs smell).

As long as your dumping out all the water, why not give it a good rinse and thorough scrubbing?

If you don't have another tank, you can keep your fish healthy (if not happy) in a large plastic waste basket or two. Just put your filters, heaters and the water from your existing tank in the basket along with the fish.

Then you can take your time and get everying set up in the old tank, nice and clean, and let the water age, etc.

Marilyn, if you use fluorite in your pots, you pretty much don't need to worry about trace element feeding of your plants. The discus will take care of the nitrates and phosphates. You might need to add a little pottasium, but that's about it. You'll want 1.5 - 2 watts per gallon of light for Java ferns and anubias, for 10 -12 hours a day. At 1.5 - 2 watts per gallon, you can even grow Amazon swords in pots, albeit slowly.

Bubble walls and other aeration will make no difference for a low tech tank like this. The CO2 level change caused by aeration is insignificant if you're not adding CO2 through DIY or pressure. Even then, if you're using pressure, it's aeration as a problem is overated. You can make up for it with more CO2 from the tank.

The oxygen created from a low tech tank is insignificant compared to the diffusion at the water surface. With active HOB filters, you should have enough. An airstone or sponge filter wouldn't hurt, though.

[N_E_time]

I took all my gravel out of a 55 gal. with a strainer and a net and the next day my tank was so cloudy you could barely see my fish, WHY because that gravel had plenty of GOOD bacteria in it and I removed it. So heres what I did
I did not wash any gravel when I took it out so I put a lot of it back in, a few days later the tank cleared up and every time I did a water change I would use a bucket and a hose and cyphon gravel out with the water. That way I could remove a little gravel at a time and give my filters a chance to carry the extra bacteria load, It took about 2 weeks of this to remove the gravel without disturbing the tanks bio system. Been BB since then and never looked back

Mike :D

[II j L c II]

Not sure if this was said already, but how about both? Just have some thin layers of gravel or sand spread out in your tank with some bb openings. I'll have to post my tank. I had 2'' of sand, but I was afraid it would ruin water quality so i took out a lot of it and left no more than a .5.

Jon

[JeffreyRichard]

Ok I am having a real hard time with this whole decision. My tank is planted but is causing me hell and spending so much money trying to fert plants and deal with that FU$&!NG algae....its all pushing me over the edge. Now bb my only problem is that I feel like the fish are not at home and don't feel happy in a empty glass box. People please give me ideas on how to meet in the middle of the road here. Give me some reasons why I should switch or stay. Like will bb really!!! make my fish grow that much faster and be that much more colorful????Please give me some full tank pics of both sides of the spectrum and if anyone has pix of something in between would be even better. I just want some help with this decision... so please help. Oh and if I go bb I'm gonna have some Flourite for sale lol

It sounds like you have a couple of things going on here ...

1) Mastering a planted tank (regardless of Discus or not) ... I've bred discus, keep Altum angels, kept and keep a reef tank, but IMO the MOST difficult tank to master has been my planted tank ... I keep a planted 55 gallon tank in my kitchen as my SHOWTANK. I've probably tried 8 times to create a planted environment ... turn down and started from scratch each time. I now have a really nice looking tank, but even that comes and goes. MY ADVICE, master the plants 1st and then keep the discus in the tank. My key's ... LOTS of light, good substrait, fertilize, fast grwing plants (hygro, vals, sags)

2) Mastering discus ... a bare-bottom tank is easiest to keep and grow discus; however, discus can be grown and will thrive in a planted tank ... but first get the plants to thrive. In a planted tank, you'll want to lessen the bioload (less fish) and feed less, so you should expect slower growth and often discus will not achieve their growth potential.

3) You can set up nice looking tanks with plants in pots ... I have 7 or 8 really big amazon swords each individually potted and placed in my 70's and 125 ... still need the right light over them. But a nice potted crypt or amazon sword, or a piece of driftwood covered with java fern is a nice compromise between fully planted and bare bottom.

You need to decide what your preferences are ... fast growing large discus (bare bottom w/lots of feeding and water changes) or slower growing/less number of discus (planted will work fine)

Jeff

[marilyn1998]

Alight,

My tank 30 gallon 30x12.5x18 has a twin flouescent 18 watts ea. I want like a couple of potted plants, a driftwood with something growing on it. Doesnt have to be moss. What is the best light to replace my bulbs? I want a low tech tank for my 4 discus.

[stiver james]

Well I guess I have to put my two cents worth in on this subject. I have been raising discus for the past 25yrs. This has been off and on. But untill I started raising them again just recently all of mine have been in a planted tank. I have six tanks set up now and after learning a little bit more about raising the fish from this website among other info. I have decided to raise my young fish in bb tanks. I have watersprite floating on the top of the aquariums to offer the fish a little more security. I really love the planted tank and will never completley get away from them. I have a 55gal planted show tank upstairs with three young discus in it, two plecos, 4 rams and a few neon tetras. I do not have a heavy substrate in it. Maybe two inches in the back and 1/2inch towards the front. I also have two pieces of driftwood and a couple of rocks in it. I use two 4ft sunglow bulbs and keep them on for about 12hrs a day. I use two cheap co2 systems that create co2 by sugar fermentation. These cost about 40.00 each. I also use algae fix once a week to control algae. This seems to work good. I change 50 percent of the water about once a week sometimes every two weeks. I have no algae problems and my fish are healthy and seem to be growing just fine. The plants are lush and grow rapidly. I do not trim them to often as I like the wild look. I only trim them when they get out of control. I do agree that the bb tank is the easiet way to grow your fish out. But IMO only I don't necessarly agree that keeping and raising discus in a planted tank is any harder than a bb tank. In fact to me in alot of ways my planted tank is easier. Now don't everybody start attacking me this is JUST HOW IT WORKS FOR ME. It's like everyone says it's what you like and what works for you. I guess you might say I have been just lucky with the planted tank and if this is the case I hope my luck continues. Jim

[Dissident]

My theory as to planted tanks and discus:
If you are new to one or the other do not mix untill you have been successful at both and have a strong understanding on the technology and workings of both.

IME:
Planted tanks are a lot harder than discus.
Anyone can feed them change water and treat with meds. (im sure some will dissagree with me there LOL).
Planted tanks require prober equipment, if you don't have proper CO2/Lighting (the basics and costly$$) you are doomed at the start. You also have to learn algae controll without the use of chemicals or algae eating fish (never works). It is all about ballancing the intense lights which are great for growing algae with CO2 and proper ferts. There is no 1 fert that is needed in the planted tank game. All tanks are different and some will require more Fe or K or ETC., once a planted tank is ballanced you can then move on to discus.

In the end the decision is upto you but if you could I would do 2 tanks. One BB discus and one planted, start low-tech and move up to high-tech. Try the DIY CO2, start with 2-2.5 W/gallon, try a lot of different things enjoy it and have fun. Use hardy tetras and still make it a nice looking tank and see what works and what doesn't, all the advice that you get on line will not necessarly work for you.

[Alight]

Marylin, one thing that would work if you or a good friend of yours in adept at wiring, etc. would be to just overdrive the bulbs you have. To do this you will need a 4x electronic ballast for 20 watt bulbs.

I just did this to a two bulb, 4 ft, T-8 Shoplight unit, and it really does work. What this will do is essentially double the light output of your 36 watts you currently have. Effectively, you will have 70+ watts of fluorescent light, about the right amount for what you want to do. The price should be $15-$30 depending on if you can find a ballast locally or have to order one.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-tank-faq/175-cheap-lighting-odno.html

tells you how, and

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/21257-odno-measurements-power-consumption-vs-light-output-long.html

tells you how much. You may have to register (free) to view these threads.

[JeffreyRichard]

Alight,

My tank 30 gallon 30x12.5x18 has a twin flouescent 18 watts ea. I want like a couple of potted plants, a driftwood with something growing on it. Doesnt have to be moss. What is the best light to replace my bulbs? I want a low tech tank for my 4 discus.

I have two 110 watt VHO bulbs above my 55 gallon ... most of the books recommend 2-3 watts per gallon, BUT I never had ANY success until I went with the VHO bulbs (tried four 40 watt bulbs but no real success).

I would recommend a Power Compact setup for your 29 gallon tank (a standard 30 gallon is 36x12x15). You can buy kits on the internet ... http://www.ahsupply.com/ sells these.

If you go standard flourescent, the ABSOLUTE minimum would be two 20 watt bulbs with internal reflectors.

[chago09]

thanx for all the replies everyone. I really appreciate all the help. I think the key here is that I am no expert on a planted tank. And my discus don't need to suffer due to my ignorance. Therefore I will change my 70 gallon to bb and keep a few amazon swords in some pots. then I will take the rest of my flourite and put it into a 10 gallon tank I have where I will begin my practice at making a planted tank.(i should have started there in the first place) when i learn what to do with plants then I can make my beauty planted discus tank one day. Hell I'm only 20 I have no rush right LOL. I'll take my 6 2 to 3.5" discus and give them a bb tank. Thanx again everyone and I'll be asking more questions later about removing the gravel LOL i know I'll run into a problem I always do LOL