HELP, Sampson is getting worse

[tpl*co]

Well I posted before that Sampson got really sick after using a bad batch of Seachem Flourish Excel :(. That was about a month ago, I did numerous water changes since then, vacuuming the tank thouroughly and he was recently picking at his food but not really eating like he used to. Last week I did a treatment with metro but it didn't do any good. (Goliath and the other fish are fine, I think Sampson may have swam through the Excel when I was adding it and was severely affected :(, everything I've read about it says that it can be toxic if too much is used, and from my other post I may have had a bad batch to begin with since it was a yellowish gold color).

Today Sampson is still darker except for a stripe over his gill plates (not totally black, just darker and dullish, just like he's been since the fertilizer incident), he's also listing to the side.

Is there anything I can do that I haven't done yet to save him? He was my first discus and I hate to see him like this! Could he have gotten a secondary infection that I need to treat?

Tina

[hexed]

Has he been moved to a hospital tank?
My tip: When I add anything to the tank, like Excel, I usually do it when the lights are off. This way they won't all rush the top of the tank when I open the lid.

[AmberC]

Tina I'm sorry! I hope someone can help and he pulls thru this! :(
Amber

[hexed]

Tina,
I don't know how to treat him cause I never heard of this ever happening before :(
Are you sure you did not add anything to the tank like a plant or fish? I can see something coming from a plant or if you added a new fish that you might have thought was QT enough and put him in there. But I do not know about over dosing with Excel, I'm sorry :(
I would think fresh clean water would cure that.
Frank

[pcsb23]

Tina,

Like Frank I am at a loss as to how to treat your fish. If it is some form of poisoning by the excel not knowing the toxin makes it very hard to recommend any solution.

If it were me I would add some Vitamin B complex, its a general de toxifier, and 1 or 2 drops acriflavine per gallon. I would also move Sampson to a qt tank, with an airstone and the temps around 84f.

Sorry I can't be more definite but wish you luck.

[Ardan]

Here is the msds on excel (material safety data sheet) from the Seachem FAQs





ParaGuard, HealthGuard , Pond HealthGuard, Flourish Excel, StressGuard [NFPA 1,0,1]:

Principal ingredient is glutaraldehyde with ameliorating ingredients, pH 7. ParaGuard also contains malachite green. Malachite green is a
possible carcinogen. Ingestion may cause severe gastric disturbance. May cause moderate irritation of mouth. If ingested, drink large
quantities of milk or water. Universal antidote (charcoal) is useful. If enough is swallowed to cause distress, seek medical attention. Eye
contact will cause severe irritation. Flush eyes copiously with water. Seek medical attention.


From this, I suppose if the fish was right in the thickest concentration of Excel, I suppose he could have received an irritation. And yes it is possible there is secondary infection. also that he "lists"
You might put him in a hospital tank and try an internal antibiotic?? I have not heard of this either, but if it coincides with him swimming through the excel additive it is possible.

For internal antibiotic, I like Kanacyn. if you can't find that try maracyn 2.
Double first dose, use for 7 to 10 days.

I don't know what else you can try if wc's have not helped.

hth
Ardan

[tpl*co]

No, I quarantine all fish and plants,

But I may have found something! My nitrates today were high (about 15+) after I did a major water change and vacuuming yesterday! (took all pots and everything out to vacuum and check). Would the fertilizers do that? I also have some Seachem Flourish tabs in some of the pots that have swords in them (1 tab in 2 pots, so a total of 2 tabs in the tank, since I'm not dosing with liquid ferts any more). This is my planted (somewhat) show tank. I normally don't add anything but water conditioner to my other tanks :(. I'M DOING ANOTHER MAJOR WATER CHANGE AS WE SPEEK, ASAP! This is a BB tank with just a 1 gravel stone layer to look like there's something.

Tina

[traco]

I would think if Sampson was run down anyways, the nitrates being up a bit, he would be the first to react? Hopefully, with getting the levels down, he'll start to improve.

Let us know how things progress. Good luck.

[Dood Lee]

I can't see excel being the cause of your fish's condition. I have overdosed excel many times to take advantage of its algaecidal properties, and never have I seen it have any effect on my fish. My situation could be different seeing as how my tank is fully planted, and any excess excel used up by the plants, but unless you dosed 4x the amount like I did, even 2x the normal dose should have no effect on fish. Hopefully the problems were from the nitrates you detected.

[tpl*co]

Here's another thought, does any of this stuff affect snails? Been seeing a lot of snail shells - but then I have loaches in there too.

1. Snail death - causing spike
2. Spike affecting the run down Sampson and bringing up my nitrates?

I checked out my other tank that is even heavier stocked but I don't fertilize and it's nitrates are fine.

Tina

[pcsb23]

Tina,

15ppm nitrates would not cause as severe a reaction as the one you describe, it is well within the torlerable zone even for discus. I would suspect that the fish swam through the excel and has been upset through it and maybe the doc's (dissolved organic compounds) in the tank being a bit high has caused his immune to be down a bit and he has now got a bacterial infection. I think it would have to be quite a lage snail and snail die off to cause a spike. I'd get him into qt and either try what Ardan suggested or a supportive treatment (vit B and water changes and acriflavine - the acriflavine will srop seondaries). Sorry its only speculation.

[Dood Lee]

Here's another thought, does any of this stuff affect snails? Been seeing a lot of snail shells - but then I have loaches in there too.

1. Snail death - causing spike
2. Spike affecting the run down Sampson and bringing up my nitrates?

I checked out my other tank that is even heavier stocked but I don't fertilize and it's nitrates are fine.

Tina

What size are your snails? I don't think they could cause such a spike in nitrates, unless your entire tank was filled with them.

Excel could conceivably kill off snails, but you probably wouldn't see the shells. Like co2, excel can lower the pH of a tank if overdosed. At low pH levels, snail shells become brittle and soft and degrade easily in a tank. My guess is that your loaches are eating them up.

[candyl70]

Tina,

So sorry to hear that Sampson isn't doing well. :( Is he feeling any better yet?? Keep us posted. I hope he gets better for ya real soon.


Candy

[tpl*co]

Thanks for thinking of him Candy!

Well, doing major water changes and I threw in every possible nitrate scavanger I had on hand in the HOB filter (chemipure, Purigan, and Nitrasorb). I am hesitant about medicating any more since if he was poisoned by the ferts, I am hesitant about comprimising him any more with additional meds for now (he's already gone through a course of Metro and I've already gave him acriflavine before too in Parasite clear). Yesterday his color looked a little better and he was picking a little at the bottom and flaring a little for his girl Goliath, but he still doesn't look completely out of the woods. I am just knocking on wood that this progress continues and I get my fiesty Sampson back! I'm also going to double my water changes for him too until everything is under control in this tank (plus no more of those liquid ferts! I'm tossing those bottles!) You know, all through this, Goliath hasn't skipped a beat? She's a pb and he's a red turq.!

Tina

[hexed]

Tina,
I just got off the phone with SeaChem. Jeff told me that if it was Excel all your discus will be effected cause the only effect over dosing with excel will do is remove the oxygen from your tank. He wanted to know why you claimed it was "a bad bottle" because if it was a "bad" bottle then it would not have had any effects on your discus or tank at all. He also said that because only one discus is sick and not all, we can rule out Excel and it just happen that the discus got sick the same time.
He said it sounded more of an internal parasite or infection. I told him that you did Metro. He said to try Akuzal (sp) another form of metro or you can switch to Kanaplex or neoplex.
I called because I wanted to get you the proper treatment to save Sampson and no other reason. I don't want you to dump all different meds in the tank like you said. Here's the toll free number if you would like to call them 1-888-732-2436.
I hope this helps you,
Frank

[tpl*co]

Thanks Frank!

The reason I think it is the ferts is that Sampson being Sampson swam right through the chemical stream after it was added (I added the correct amount on the bottle). Also, it seems that my bottle was "off" colored in that mine was golden liquid instead of clear, and the other was really darkish blackish and smelled strongly of iron/iron oxide.

That's what I thought too was maybe he had a parasitic infection and treated him for that. But the correlation of this happening right after I added the fertilizer is just way too strong (He did the same thing before when I tried adding the same fertilizers before and he was the only one that was affected by it and got better after it was gone).

Could be he's just hyper sensitive to one of the ingredients, I don't know.

Tina

[pcsb23]

Iron is not good for them, particularly if its the non-chelated iron.

[tpl*co]

That's what I thought, If this is the case and he got an overdose of Iron, all the meds in the world probably wouldn't help (and may cause him to try and react to them or get them out of his system too?). That's why I'm trying the course of getting the water as clean as possible and see if he can flush it out of his system on his own.

Another thing that was strange with the plants was that where I added it the plants had really dark green spots and speckling form which made me think there was something going on with the iron too.

He still looks ragged but this approach may be working in that he was trying to show his alpha statis again. (Is that a guy thing?). He also isn't all dark, but it goes in waves across his body where some parts look close to his usual color and then there is this darkish band that travels across his body (did you ever see those documentories on Octopus and squid changing colors? It looks just like that). This is besides his usual bars which he really had out after the fertilizer thing! He's not showing his usual bars as much now either, which is making me think that his stress level is going down.

Poor Sampson!

Tina

[big bob]

The little fela should be ok asuming there isent any organ damage (V likley)just keep doing the changes and it will leave his system slowly.
Dont ever use Exel at its st8ed dose or your plants will go mad and grow a inch a day but stragerly weak groth then after a week too a month u will get very bad alge problems. it also kills inverts instantly. your best bet is to add a few drops a week and keep a close eye on your tank or even better test your ion levels.
Good luck.
Mike & co.

[pcsb23]

Tina,

I think you are doing the right thing, the dark green spots sorta adds credence too! Suspect it interferred with his normal operating, possibly nervous system, its just speculation. Hopefully there will be no long term damage as you got the worst of it outta there sharpish. Amazing what good clean water can achieve.

Fingers crossed.

[tpl*co]

All this makes my even lower tech java ferns tied to wood in the other tank look sooooo much better! :(.

Tina

[pcsb23]

I know what you mean, I run a high tech planted tank, and use liquid ferts daily. I either dose straight into the outlet flow from the filter or doisperse it with my hand. Although I keep flourish and excel, I only really use the excel in my low tech tank. Occaisionally in the high tech if bba showing but thankfully thats rare. Jave ferns do really well when adding excel btw!

[Dood Lee]

Dont ever use Exel at its st8ed dose or your plants will go mad and grow a inch a day but stragerly weak groth then after a week too a month u will get very bad alge problems. it also kills inverts instantly. your best bet is to add a few drops a week and keep a close eye on your tank or even better test your ion levels.
Good luck.
Mike & co.

Uh, what? How can excel contribute to algae growth? If anything, excel hinders the growth of algae because it is both a carbon source for plants and has algaecidal properties.

And dosing excel at the standard dosage (1 capful) does not kill inverts "instantly." My nano has all kinds of freshwater shrimp, and I dose excel on that daily.