Changing to RO water.

[MayorNewton]

Just thinking out loud here. I'm getting that RO/DI unit in soon, and will be changing the water in my tank (75g). I'm told, though, that they don't put out a great deal of water, so figured it might take quite a while to fill it if I empty it and go from scratch. I really don't want to do this, as I have the nutrients, etcetera in there from the Eco-Complete and like looking at a full tank. I can take 5 gallons at a time out and add the RO water as I get a bucket full, and while it might take a long time to totally swap it out, I can monitor my TDS with the meter I ordered and stop when I like what I see.

Right?

Newt

[Carol_Roberts]

I don't understand what you are trying to do . . . . RO is for breeders - so eggs can hatch. Usually breeders are in 20 - 30 gallon bare bottom tanks. Juveniles and non-breeders don't need RO water - they DO need lots of fresh water from frequent water changes. . . .

[MayorNewton]

Hi, Carol...thanks for the reply. So I don't need better water than 20gh and 11kh (measured with a Tetra drop kit) for some wild caught discus? And a lower pH than 8.5? That's not what I've been hearing...would love some more thoughts on that. http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49069

Newt

[raglanroad]

Not only do you get to make the water to any parameters you wish, but you are assured of clean water, and no kills from tapwater supply problems such as work being done on the mains, when all your fish may croak.
I would say that gradually adding RO is better than suddenly switching to a different TDS.
And using a mineral formula will assure that no tapwater problems get to the fish, so you could use straight RO with added minerals, then decrease the amount of minerals gradually.
As to buying an RO, probably good to buy the 100gpd kind, because it will give enough water for a small setup, nd also if you get more fish, you don't need another RO.

[MayorNewton]

Thanks! I 'thought' it was a good idea, from all I've read and common sense. If RO water is 'for breeding,' then it must be 'great' water, and sure can't hurt the fish even if not breeding.

I've got a 110 gpd coming, but I'm told that the ratings are based on your water pressure and temp so you don't know what you're going to get until you hook it up and start making water.

That's what I'll do, then...gradually swap out the water as it makes it...even though I don't have fish yet, that would be easier than emptying the tank and starting over with the small output of the RO unit.

Newt

[MayorNewton]

Just checked my TDS with my new, handy little hand-held meter...it just arrived today. I'm getting a reading of 263. Good, bad...what? I'll do some reading.

Newt

[Cosmo]

263 in and of itself is not bad, but it is on the high side. What constitutes the 263 is really the question. With tap, you don't know unless you regularly send it out to a lab.

Many say keep the TDS below 200, many say it doesn't matter. I use RO and for adults I keep it at about 100. Since I got some new juveniles I've bumped it up to 130. I've kept the adults as low as 40 in the past, but that usually gets them pretty excited... lol

If/when you get to using all RO, I'd recommend (from experience) Kent RO Right for hardness, Kent PH Stable for buffering, and Kent Discus Essentials for trace minerals. Been using these for roughly 2 years now with stable water (no ph bounce) and good growth results.

PS... if you don't have strong water pressure and don't use a booster pump... expect roughly 50% of the rated production... give or take depending on your source water. Flush the membranes regularly for longer life too

hth
Jim

[troyclark]

I have a 100 GPD membrane in my RO but I can easily get 150-175 GPD out of it with the product water in the 15-18 tds range. If you use warm water instead of just cold water your production increases. HTH

[diablocanine]

Just checked my TDS with my new, handy little hand-held meter...it just arrived today. I'm getting a reading of 263. Good, bad...what? I'll do some reading.

Newt

I think that is bad for wilds, but that IMO and I go by what works for me. I stop adding ferts at around 200 until after a water change. TDS meter is a good daily quick check tool, you need to get test kits to achieve more accurate results.

Here is a little experiment for you. Let your RO unit run for a day and check the GH. Turn it off for a couple of days, turn it back on and immediately check your GH. If you do not use 100gpd you may be defeating your purpose as far as GH is concerned. Depending on your results, you may want to look into getting a backflush unit.

[MayorNewton]

Some more great info...thanks for taking the time to help, all. I'll learn this stuff yet!

Newt

[Cosmo]

You should always install a backflush circuit in the tubing and use it regularly to keep the membrane clean. I have dual 75gpd membranes and the product water is in the 6/7 range.

Water temp, and water pressure effect output. You can run your product water through a warm water bath by installing 50ft of tubing before the unit and/or booster pump... keep the tubing submersed in water with a heater and powerhead to prewarm the water as it flows through the tubing ...

Works well in moderate to warm weather.. doesn't work too well in Chicago winters though cause the heater can't overcome the constant flow of the ice cold source water :(

Don't warm the input water too much .. too warm and it'll damage the membrane. Randal will have to supply the max temp though .. mine never gets that warm so I forgot :p

Jim

[pcsb23]

Hi Newt,

Yes RO water is for breeding, and yes you can use RO water for any and all fish, Discus, african/malawi cichlids, even marine reef tanks. You've got to work out what to add to the RO water to get it where you want it and where your fish 'tell' you they are happy.

TDS of 263 is lower than mine, mines over 300. I like to run my tanks at a TDS of 50 - 75. My planted tanks always read higher because I add ferts (more stuff in the water). Now I am not suggesting you aim at these, but consider that wilds in the wild come from water with a tds of around 5 and often less than that and you can see the challenges. It would be suicidal to try and run at that level, unless you were producing 100's of gallons a day!

It is also my experience that if you drop tds rapidly and massively it stresses the fish, doing over a few days though is fine. You can re-mineralise the RO with the RO waste, it has passed through teh particle filter and the carbon filter so no chlorine/chloramine or heavy metals in it.

I would get the 100gpd unit and collect say 10 galls at atime of pure RO and add that as is, it will take quite a while to get the TDS down to low numbers, many weeks in fact at 10 gallons a day. A TDS of 75 - 150 is a reasonable range to play about with, giving plenty of room for error as it were and still benefitting wilds.

Like all people what works for me won't necessarily work for you, but set your self some targets use them as abase and make adjustments from there.

Hope that doesn't confuse you too much,

[Cosmo]

PS.. the softer the water (the lower the TDS), the more susceptible it is to ph crashes. Go slow like Paul suggested, and consider adding a buffering agent if/when you decide to go down below 150 or so. Watch the ph as your water chemistry changes.. it can drop dramatically overnight if you're not careful.

And... place an airstone, and preferably a water pump too, in the storage bin as the water collects .. will help stabilize it, and, will mix the additives and/or the waste water before anything enters the tank.. a heater too of course..

Jim

[MayorNewton]

Ah, something to aim for. I 'think' I've got a plan now. Thanks, guys...good stuff! Since I don't have fish yet, I should be able to get my water down to lower TDS...say 100 for a goal...before I get some, and I can take them down more from there though it doesn't sound like that will be necessary. I'll have some happy wilds or die trying...with all your help.

Newt

[raglanroad]

You might ask , wherever you are getting your wilds from, what TDS they are kept at now. Make your tank the same, then change after you get the fish.
If you are getting wild fish from a known importer/source, most likely someone here will already know the water they are kept in.

[raglanroad]

and don't forget to turn off the TDS meter every time. those batteries cost a big buck !

[RandalB]

IMHO, you should try keeping some starter discus in your tap water before you start fooling around with RO. Especially if you are keeping juveniles or wilds.

I've kept Heckels, RSG's, Wild Blues,Wild Greens and Wild Browns in my tanks at pH 7.8, 200+ PPM TDS with NO Problems at all. As a matter of fact, I had a wild brown pair sucessfully spawn in that tap water (not a lot of babies but some...)

RandalB

PS: Membranes are destroyed at 113-115F

[MayorNewton]

Wow, just checked the TDS in my tank, not just from the tap, and found I have around 430ppm. This is up from the 235 out of the tap...so I'd imagine it's from the minerals from the EcoComplete substrate? This translates to somewhere around 860 microseimens?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for discus that's too much and I'm doing right by replacing some of the water with RO water, bringing my TDS down?

Newt

[Alight]

Mayor Newton, please don't take offense with this, but just to get things straight, you have kept fish before, right? And you do know about the nitrogen cycle, and you are either going to use cycled media in your filter, or going to do a fishless cycle either with or without biospira, right?

Also, if this is going to be a planted tank, you are going to buy nice large Discus, or be prepare to do very much cleaning so that you can feed your smaller discus enough so that they won't be stunted.

Also, you have a test kit that includes ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and are prepared to do enough water changes (up to 3 per week of 50% or more) to keep your nitrates at 10 ppm or below. You will need to keep this up for as long as you own Discus.

All of these are much more important than the GH of your water.

Then there is keeping plants which is a whole lot harder than keeping Discus.

Just wanted to clear this up before we have another series of problems stemming from not bringing up the really important issues when discussing some of the finer points.

[MayorNewton]

Alight, no offense taken.

'Yes,' I have kept fish before, know about the nitrogen cycle and am in the process of doing a fishless cycle with 'clear' ammonia. I've got the tank laid out so I can feed in an area which will make cleaning any leftovers a bit easier...a couple low spots in the gravel. I will 'probably' be getting half a dozen 4-4.5 inch fish, but juvies are not out of the question. And I have two test kits, a TetraTest Laborett and a Marine Enterprises Deluxe Analysis Center.

I'm 57 years old. In Michigan, before I moved to Florida two and a half years ago, I owned a koi and ponding business called Tranquility Koi...had it for maybe ten years, and designed and built water gardens and sold Japanese koi in the area. My pond and story were featured as the cover story of KoiUSA magazine a while back, and I was instrumental in starting the Grand Rapids, MI AKCA affiliated koi and ponding club.

A member of several koi and ponding message boards, I currently own and run The Mud Pond (http://themudpond.com/forum/index.php) a new but growing koi/watergarden/goldfish and aquarium board. I also own a four year old board that was spawned by members of the ponding hobby for the open, free speech discussion of anything...not necessarily pond related (http://www.newtcity.com/yabbse/index.php). Adults only!

I've killed my share of tropicals in years past, but it's been quite a while since I've kept discus, and I'm just now getting interested in planted tanks. Things are continually changing in the hobby, and many things I have questions about are things I didn't touch on back then or in the ponding hobby. Also, some things I 'know' are always good to go back over to get other's opinions on them.

I am purchasing 'the best' I can to start my new tank off with, including an RO unit, a full CO2 system, good substrate, test kits, lights, heaters, etcetera. The right equipment is essential, in my opinion.

We're all learning every day, and no matter our experience level should never forget that...but those are my 'credentials.'

Cheers, and thanks for the help you guys are so generously giving!

Newt

[diablocanine]

'Yes,' I have kept fish before, know about the nitrogen cycle and am in the process of doing a fishless cycle with 'clear' ammonia.

Don't let Rex know you did or are doing a fishless cycle, you'll see the jarhead come out....DC

[MayorNewton]

Shhhh...don't tell him! ;)

[Alight]

Newt, it does help to know who you're talking to. For many, the RO mix and pH "bounce" is just more than they can handle, and they just can't get the idea of accumulation of nitrates as a "marker" for toxic waste products straight, and the concept that water changes are the only real way to deal with this. For these people, the simpler the better, because Discus can survive and even thrive if conditions are stable.

For those who have the knowledge and experience, and don't mind the chemistry involved, and can put together a nice storage barrel system, why not put together the best water the fish would want? I do it daily and only occasionally get a bit tired of it.

Just set it up with the best equipment and set it up to be as fool proof as possible so critical mistakes can't happen.

I know you've found the plantedtank.net forum already, and it really does have a bunch of great info on plants. Alot of misinformation there, too, so it takes some time to weed through it sometimes. It's also a great source for rare (and common) plants at a great price on the buy-sell-trade threads when you get to that stage.

Simplydiscus.com is the best site for discus on the internet. You will find helpful and knowledgeable answers to any questions you might have on any aspect of Discus here.

I found this site just a year ago myself, and even though I've been raising Discus for more than 30 years as a hobbyist, I found out much, much more than I knew before, and many new ways do keep the fish better and easier.

Al Light

[MayorNewton]

That's what I'm here for, Al...information...and I do appreciate your input as well as everyone else's that have replied. Always lots to learn in this hobby!

That's another thing I need to get going...a storage tank. I 'think' I have room for it, and know it's a necessity...as yes, water changed are crucial in the ponding hobby so I'm sure they are with tropicals as well. What does everyone use for a good storage tank? I'd like to find a 30 gallon plastic bucket or something like that, and get a float for it. I've already got a submersible pump I can use to transfer the water to the aquarium, and an extra heater...I just ordered an inline one for the main tank...to keep it up to temp...and an air pump to keep it oxygenated.

I'm 'retired,' so have the time to mess with things...though, 'sure,' it'll be a pain now and then, but hey, so's any hobby...even the Internet.

Newt

[diablocanine]

Shhhh...don't tell him! ;)


uuuummmmmm...........ok

[Alight]

A bunch of recent posts said they love their Rubber Maid "Brute" trashcans as storage containers. These can be up to 50 gallons or more. I use sterilite bins (40 gallons) both for collecting RO water and for mixing, heating and storing my change water. Some use 55 gallon plastic drums. I think Jehmco or Big Al's sells them.

I may get some bigger containers myself, soon, as I'd like to be able to change several tanks at once, rather than wait half a day for my water to heat up and have to do changes twice a day.

Some have had good luck just using the containers "as is" but I always "cure" mine with water and baking soda for a few weeks to make sure they "outgass" any potential toxic chemicals they may have acquired during manufacture or on their way to the store, or at the store.

[RandalB]

Rubbermaid Stock Tubs are also nice...

RandalB

[Cosmo]

I just called Jehmco this morning, thinking about adding a third 65 gal storage tank to my system. The price for the tank was ony about 5/10 bucks more than they were 2 years ago, but UPS has changed their classification and the shipping cost alone is now just under 100 bucks :(

Will be heading up to Home Depot for a nice good big Rubbermaid Brute can soon :)

Jim

[MayorNewton]

Yeah, Rubbermaid Brute seems the way to go! I didn't think of a trash can...up in Michigan they have these great blue 30 apple cider barrels cheap...but that's not Florida. I'll probably go the Home Depot route, too. Thanks, guys.

Newt

[Planted]

I don't understand what you are trying to do . . . . RO is for breeders - so eggs can hatch. Usually breeders are in 20 - 30 gallon bare bottom tanks. Juveniles and non-breeders don't need RO water - they DO need lots of fresh water from frequent water changes. . . .


Hi, RO is for soft water...soft water is for Discus....so is low pH but then you wouldnt know that. Suggestions like this from such well pronounced members is what gave me a bad vibe about this forum. This is the most ridiculous thing ive read here.

Newton,
Hey I am going to be reading all of your posts over the next few days. From the tanks to filters to Hans to eco-compete to our RO/DI we are like the same. I will enjoy reading what your going through.

One things ive noticed..."RO right"...I cant find the exact ingredients...Ive recently switched to Seachem's Equilibrium due to the plant friendly GH it supposedly gives. Take care!

[Tony_S]

Hi, RO is for soft water...soft water is for Discus....so is low pH but then you wouldnt know that. Suggestions like this from such well pronounced members is what gave me a bad vibe about this forum. This is the most ridiculous thing ive read here.

Considering WHO your refering to in this paragraph, I have to say...this is one of the MOST DISRESPECTFUL posts Ive read in a long LONG time! And, trust me, Ive read ALOT of CRAP on discus forums over the years!

Carol Roberts is one of THE MOST RESPECTED authorities on this, and other discus boards! Her time spent, contributions made, and EXHAUSTIVE willingness to help new and old members alike, are UNMATCHED AND UNPARALLELED ONLY BY HER KNOWLEDGE!!

You owe her an apology for that tactless screwup of a post you made...

Tony
ps.....hows that "bad vibe" you were feeling.....gettin any better!?!:mad:

[RandalB]

....is what gave me a bad vibe about this forum.......

Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you...


RandalB

[Planted]

Considering WHO your refering to in this paragraph, I have to say...this is one of the MOST DISRESPECTFUL posts Ive read in a long LONG time! And, trust me, Ive read ALOT of CRAP on discus forums over the years!

Carol Roberts is one of THE MOST RESPECTED authorities on this, and other discus boards! Her time spent, contributions made, and EXHAUSTIVE willingness to help new and old members alike, are UNMATCHED AND UNPARALLELED ONLY BY HER KNOWLEDGE!!

You owe her an apology for that tactless screwup of a post you made...

Tony
ps.....hows that "bad vibe" you were feeling.....gettin any better!?!:mad:

Yah your right. I was thinking about what I said and I regret it. Ive always been looking for some African cichlids that will live happily in my soft acidic water. Being that I just burned one of the people who may help me get those acclimated Africans...I sorta regret it now.

I realize this person is an advocate for the "even you can keep Discus campaign" but honestly... that statement was just wrong. I am glad that this preacher is keeping the Discus they push off in tap water because all the people that person is mentoring will get these fish already acclimated. Hooray! for tank breeding.

Nope this bad vibe didnt only spawn from what I think is bad advice.

[Planted]

Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you...


RandalB


No problem take care...I felt I did more research then most before I purchased my first Discus. I think that comment was dead wrong.

My comments are mine and mine alone. No one esle. I will also refrain from posting as well and just continue to lurk because my opinions dont go with the grain.

There was nothing personal about this, I felt the comment was wrong and went against all ive read in preperation for my first Discus. I am not afraid to voice my opinion. This wasnt meant to hurt anyones feelings. I apologize if it did.

[Tony_S]

No one on Simply Discus will EVER tell you that you arent entitled to your own opinion...No one on Simply Discus will ever tell you that you cant express your opinion in a civil respectful manner....

It wasnt your opinion that was the problem...it was the fact you came across as a DISRESPECTFUL Whoops! when you stated it.

Tony

[korbi_doc]

:D Hi Newt, just an added thought! I've used 100% R/O water for over 3 yrs now because the NJ water in AC is so nasty.... it is a bit of a pia to have to wait to "make the water"....had 10 tanks running... used 3 35g RM tubs with wheels, (if you use these, remember to position them against a stable stand, wall, they need to be supported or they will crash) & reconstituted the water with calcium sulfate, aquarium salt, & epsom salts in a 3:1:1 ratio; (Joe's recipe), ...much less expensive than retail products...my R/O unit is piggy-backed to make over 100GPD thanks to Randal....I keep my water between 300-325ppms; juvies need the minerals for skeletal growth, adults do fine with this count; breeders would be very low, 50-60 or less; I'm not presently breeding.....funny thing, had a pair that bred & raised'm in the 300ppm water...ph always @ 7.2, haven't needed to test in past yrs, I think TDS is more important than ph as long as it is stable; even Carol will tell you that many "keep" discus in ph 8+ successfully, lol.... I'm looking forward to using tap water when I relocate to Tn this summer, but will still have to store, heat & aerate before tanks....JMO, good luck & sorry for the preceding "confrontation" on your thread, Dottie ;)

[RandalB]

Tony,
Even though you are expressing your opinion of Planted (Which I may or may not agree with...), please don't do so in a profane manner. Thanks...

Planted,
Kind of interesting that you come in and insult one of the top discus people in the USA and then scurry off to lurk when someone challenges you on it. What's the matter? Don't like it when people express their opinions?

As far as discus needing soft water to live, it's complete nonsense. That goes for Wilds, Domestics, Hekels, you name it. I've been keeping them in My medium Hard water for years and have sucessfully bred them in it. Ask Cary Strong, ask Discus_Hans, ask Joe Selezi, ask Jeff Young. I've supplied all of them with RO units and equipment over the years and they ALL use RO water only for breeding or shipping.

I'm done, I don't see the point of hitting my head against the wall until I get sick of the squishy sound...

RandalB

[brewmaster15]

Planted,
I am not going to comment much here except to say that You would be best served to read more and listen to those that have been in this awhile. As for Bad Vibes.... As the Forums owner the feeling is mutual now.

I think after your comments in this thread that I understand where you are coming from..So many new to discus fall into the same traps..

Just to put this all into perspective....Lets start in the beginning... You just got into discus and are not experienced at all... Contrary to what you think....but thats just my opinion and like You..I am not afraid to express it.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=304834#post304834

4/13/2006

Hello guys n gals,
I just got into keeping discus and I am reading as much as I can, I researched alot before purchasing discus also. I have been keeping fish most of my life and just started again with discus recently.

I just finished reading the "discus a bit scared" thread and just need someone to tell me the same thing. LOL. Be patient right? Its been one month so far.

My discus are acting VERY timid. I purchased 12 all together. 6 are in one tank and 6 in the other...never were they seperated or mixed. The younger red turqs were the troublesome ones on arrival but they are eating out of my hand now. The blues seemed to do well, I credited the larger size, but now they seem to be going downhill as far as personality goes. They have places to hide, I felt this was a good thing. Should I take these decorations they hide in out? I get the idea of not walking softly around them and I have been going about with that approach but it doesnt seem to be getting better.

The 6 blues are in a 90 gallon AGA. They have small rock substrate medium to dark in color, the tank is lightly planted. There are fake natural root decorations along with a tall fake natural rock and driftwood. There is a background and a glass hood with light strip on stands above the glass.

I recently upgraded my lighting and installed glass tops and removed the plastic lids. This seemed to work wonders but a few days later the discus are retreating hastily when I enter the room. I thought bright lighting was a problem but it seems the discus only come out when the lights are on and quite honestly I dont know if it was the brighter lighting or the brown plastic hoods being removed that seemed to work. They seem to have been eating better after the lighting upgrade...IE they could see the food better.

I just dont know what to do. One or more of the discus is a really dark color. It almost looks black. When I feed them...there is one or two that arent soo scared and they seem to draw the other ones out. They arent soo dark in color when they are eating this seems to change rather quickly.

The discus are in the 90 gallon with a single 3-4" killifish that seems to get ill looking in any other tank. He immediatly springs back to life so I call the 90 his home. He takes high temps well and seems to love beefheart scraps. He does not have a territory I havent ever seen him chase a fish, he is a sweetheart. I am almost thinking of relocating him just to see what happens. Could these discus be afraid of this fish? I will be getting a new 75 gallon tank soon and killi should be happy there.

Any insight on this would be extemely helpful. I am getting kinda nervous and thinking these fish may be sick.

Oh I have 0 NH3, 0 NO2, 0 NO3, 84F 6.0-6.2 pH. I use a TDS meter to determine my GH and KH and hope they are close its 70-100ppm TDS. I use rebuilt ro water no tap water. Water changes are small but frequent, 1 per 2days at 10-15%, weekend maintenance, filter cleaning in old tank water..ect.

I have a website with pictures and more of my saga.
Check it out let me know what you think. I will enjoy being a part of this forum and maybe I can provide some help at times.



To quote you... 4/21/2006
My fish are showing distress signs because of pH. See my first post, I now found out my pH "crashed" it was so low.....because of what was said about finding that ro water recipe. Yes it is quite an art making ro water...I sorta got cocky and started eyeing stuff up, not testing, making up for missed addiditives...all sorts of NO NO's...I thought everything was perfect but my pH was too low...now that I realized pH was my problem I began to fix it...the Discus are now showing much better.

Now... I have my ro recipe down I think...:confused:




And now its 5/15/2006 and you feel like lecturing experienced Discus Keepers..

Thanks, but No thanks.

People like Carol and many others here give countless hours of their Time trying to help people like You. But I Guess you don't need that help and have it all figured out.


-al

[White Worm]

Now thems some tight britches! You may have read some books on discus but if there is one thing I have learned is that you to learn through physical practice. Nothing beats watching them and understanding their needs by interaction. You could read a book about building a space rocket or nuclear bomb, but it doesnt mean you could do it. Nothing beats hands-on-training plus the opinions of the some of the experts here on simply that have been doing this for years and years. I think you picked the wrong person to question her knowledge.
Book about discus.....$20
Discus and tank....$1,000
Discus keeping advice on Simply.... Priceless!

[RandalB]

Now thems some tight britches! You may have read some books on discus but if there is one thing I have learned is that you to learn through physical practice. Nothing beats watching them and understanding their needs by interaction. You could read a book about building a space rocket or nuclear bomb, but it doesnt mean you could do it. Nothing beats hands-on-training plus the opinions of the some of the experts here on simply that have been doing this for years and years. I think you picked the wrong person to question her knowledge.
Book about discus.....$20
Discus and tank....$1,000
Discus keeping advice on Simply.... Priceless!


Well How about that..... :idea2:

Good Post Mikscus...

RandalB

[diablocanine]

Wow, maybe y'all can help me figure out what kind of Discus that little guy on top is (so far I have Blue Turquoise and maybe Cobalt):
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c50/DiabloCanine/55%20gallon/NewDiscus2.jpg Apologies for hijacking the thread.....DC

[Alight]

I like the way that Dick Au cuts through a bunch of the Discus "designer" names. Many times, a bunch of different so called "types" of discus came from the same batch of fry, just grouped differently.

So, this one will be a barred discus, similar to the old red or blue turquoise monikered strains. "Cobalt" is just the same fish with more blue, and less red.

Usually, the blue increases as the fish get older, so I'd expect more blue and less read as the fish grows, but this tendency stops at a certain point, and can't tell if your fish is before or after that point.

Could be a pretty fish if it gets enough food and doesn't get picked on too badly.

[Planted]

Planted,
I am not going to comment much here except to say that You would be best served to read more and listen to those that have been in this awhile. As for Bad Vibes.... As the Forums owner the feeling is mutual now.

I think after your comments in this thread that I understand where you are coming from..So many new to discus fall into the same traps..

Just to put this all into perspective....Lets start in the beginning... You just got into discus and are not experienced at all... Contrary to what you think....but thats just my opinion and like You..I am not afraid to express it.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=304834#post304834

4/13/2006


To quote you... 4/21/2006


And now its 5/15/2006 and you feel like lecturing experienced Discus Keepers..

Thanks, but No thanks.

People like Carol and many others here give countless hours of their Time trying to help people like You. But I Guess you don't need that help and have it all figured out.


-al

I think what happened here is the trap you had explained..perhaps I dont understand quite yet. OBVIOUSLY. Look... I feel I did my homework, have I tried keeping my fish in less then perfect water? NO. I feel its a slap in the face when Ive read about Discus prefered water parameters then hear someone say mine lived in it for years...so it must be OK. I am sorry I just dont buy that. For sure the fish are living....I just dont think coming in and suggesting against RO is the best thing especially in a Discus forum....where I felt I would find my home....BUT I didnt. Maybe years away I will have my dream reeftank and I will fit in well with others and NOT have such extreme differences. It is the extreme differences here and my lack of discipline to get my point across in a civil manner. I dont argue what was said or that comment about my statement. It was raw, I sincerely apologize for hurting anyone's feelings....that wasnt my intention. AND Not because the forum owner came out.

Am I trying to tell everyone that I know more? I didnt come across like that so the comment "thanks but no thanks" is funny...I am not trying to say I know more....playing that card of course is the best!...I dont blame you. RO isnt only for breeding its for soft water. My point stands and I am correct. I was trying to say what the heck was all research for then? Why is it published...why do people take the time to writeup RO articles...I havent ONCE intended on breeding....I have NEVER researched on breeding and I came to the conclusion RO was ideal for my interests with Apisitogramma and Discus. All my gripes came out in one fresh comment.

Likewise, The feeling is mutual. My opinion of the advice isnt what gave me the bad vibe in the first place. There is a great deal of information here. I dont mean to discredit your hard work and efforts, thats not my intention. This is YOUR forum, you will do what YOU want. I dont know you personally and this isnt a personal issue.

RandalB,
Out of respect for all the happy fishkeepers on this board, I decided not to continue posting my comments and try to be a little considerate. If you would like, I could continue this loose cannon BS. Listen. I am not here to make enemies, I really am a niceguy. My words just dont seem to come out right. Its easy for me to type a bunch of words I want to say in one little harsh comment. Its hard for me to do the contrary. I hope that clears up your thoughts and answers your comment/question.

I am sorry to have ruined a nice guy's thread and dont really expect to resurrect myself here and plan to move ahead like I stated before. Out of respect?...I wanted to state my case and follow up because of the reactions my words had.

[brewmaster15]

Planted,
Do you honestly think that all those breeders out there are using RO water for their discus? Do you think they would waste all that water to use RO on fry and young fish? If you do then you should take some time to visit some breeders and large scale hobbyists and see what they really do...or read on this forum better than you have.

You mentioned in your own posts how little RO you get out of tap..... You are new to this and going by the same old assumption that Soft water is needed for discus....Thats wrong.... Carol was not wrong. SOft water is not needed....what harms more discus than anything out is when people start screwing around with their water. Sure it would be great if we all had amazon water here and could do the water changes with 50 us and a continuous flow thru... we can't and lucky for us..Discus adapt well to what we can do. If people are blessed with soft acidic water, thats great..Its not going to hurt the fish....breeding them will be easier.

YOU were wrong to post this...
Hi, RO is for soft water...soft water is for Discus....so is low pH but then you wouldnt know that. Suggestions like this from such well pronounced members is what gave me a bad vibe about this forum. This is the most ridiculous thing ive read here Its one thing to say...hey I use RO and it works fine for me...Its another to say what you said, the way you said it.

I keep my Discus ( and man, I have hundreds of them in thousands of gallons of water) in tap...pH 7.2-7.6 , med hard, conductivity of ~ 400 us... Thats wilds and domestics. I like to think I have a fair amount of experience in keeping these fishes.

With Discus ...RO IS NOT NEEDED IN MOST CASES...some use it for normal Discus keeping if they have liquid concrete for water.. Most on this forum use tap (whatever their water parameters ) for grow out, RO for Breeders. Some use RO mixed with tap for wilds.

MOst come to the conclusion that their discus are better off with large water changes using a stable aged water storage system or from the tap, than with water that the have to mess with and can only do small water changes with because they mess with parameters like conductivity, and pH. You mentioned in your posts that you don't like storing the water because it takes space.....Its worth the space for many. YOu also experienced why most don't like messing with water parameters...you almost killed your fish with a pH crash..The pH and conductivity in the Amazon is low...but what keeps the crash there from occuring is the flow thru of water and the complex water chemistry of things like Tannins and Humic acid...things we can not duplicate in our tanks.

Incidentally.. with you using RO as you are, and doing small water changes.. I'd be very careful to watch your pH...If you have alot of biological activity in that Tank , you'll crash your pH for sure...especially if you skip some WCs.


To address this...
Out of respect for all the happy fishkeepers on this board, I decided not to continue posting my comments and try to be a little considerate. If you would like, I could continue this loose cannon BS. Listen. I am not here to make enemies, I really am a niceguy. My words just dont seem to come out right. Its easy for me to type a bunch of words I want to say in one little harsh comment. Its hard for me to do the contrary. I hope that clears up your thoughts and answers your comment/question If you want to differ in opinions, and express them in a civil manner for discussion..Thats fine..if you want to be disrespective or inflammatory..you have the wrong forum.
IF I see any more of the above kind of disrespect for moderators here and this forum... you are gone.


I have seen you before....Hundreds of times on the forums... The guy that has kept other fish and comes to discus thinking that their other fish keeper experiences will offset what they don't know about discus first hand.. I have heard a thousand Times....I've kept salt for years or I bred Angels for decades...yada yada... and they question why discus keepers do what they do, almost with contempt in their posts.... The ones that become discus keepers listen to whats done and learn from it..Yes they may modify it, but they don't discount it because its different from what they did for other fish... The Choice is Yours..

This forum has benefits thousands of Hobbyists, largely because of the sharing of knowledge here by the experienced hobbyists and breeders with each other and the novices.. If you want to participate in that in constructive manner, welcome to SimplyDiscus.com... if you can't take the time to post your thoughts in civil manner and participate on the forum without causing threads like this.... Then Please do us all a favor...and leave.

thank you,
al

[hexed]

Newt,
I just wanted to pop in and let you know that you should hold off on the RO unit if you plan on setting up a planted tank. You said you are getting a CO2 system and that will lower your PH.
I do not use a RO unit, my water is straight from tap. I have not had any problems doing this and my discus breed without any problems and almost all the eggs hatch. The reason why people use the RO for breeding is the eggs. They will not hatch in hard water. My tap water is soft only 4 drops to turn the test tube green. Sorry I lost my chart and I do not have to worry about my GH so I do not know what the ppm are :)
Listen to what Carol has to say, she is not wrong and will not steer you wrong either. Unfortunately, people think that discus have to be in very soft water but if I remember correctly Cary Strong bred his in high PH and he has beautiful discus.
I would set up the planted tank using whatever water you are using now and after you get the CO2 working test the perimeters. Then if you want to add the RO then you can.

[Planted]

Planted,
Do you honestly think that all those breeders out there are using RO water for their discus? Do you think they would waste all that water to use RO on fry and young fish? If you do then you should take some time to visit some breeders and large scale hobbyists and see what they really do...or read on this forum better than you have.

You mentioned in your own posts how little RO you get out of tap..... You are new to this and going by the same old assumption that Soft water is needed for discus....Thats wrong.... Carol was not wrong. SOft water is not needed....what harms more discus than anything out is when people start screwing around with their water. Sure it would be great if we all had amazon water here and could do the water changes with 50 us and a continuous flow thru... we can't and lucky for us..Discus adapt well to what we can do. If people are blessed with soft acidic water, thats great..Its not going to hurt the fish....breeding them will be easier.

YOU were wrong to post this... Its one thing to say...hey I use RO and it works fine for me...Its another to say what you said, the way you said it.

I keep my Discus ( and man, I have hundreds of them in thousands of gallons of water) in tap...pH 7.2-7.6 , med hard, conductivity of ~ 400 us... Thats wilds and domestics. I like to think I have a fair amount of experience in keeping these fishes.

With Discus ...RO IS NOT NEEDED IN MOST CASES...some use it for normal Discus keeping if they have liquid concrete for water.. Most on this forum use tap (whatever their water parameters ) for grow out, RO for Breeders. Some use RO mixed with tap for wilds.

MOst come to the conclusion that their discus are better off with large water changes using a stable aged water storage system or from the tap, than with water that the have to mess with and can only do small water changes with because they mess with parameters like conductivity, and pH. You mentioned in your posts that you don't like storing the water because it takes space.....Its worth the space for many. YOu also experienced why most don't like messing with water parameters...you almost killed your fish with a pH crash..The pH and conductivity in the Amazon is low...but what keeps the crash there from occuring is the flow thru of water and the complex water chemistry of things like Tannins and Humic acid...things we can not duplicate in our tanks.

Incidentally.. with you using RO as you are, and doing small water changes.. I'd be very careful to watch your pH...If you have alot of biological activity in that Tank , you'll crash your pH for sure...especially if you skip some WCs.


To address this... If you want to differ in opinions, and express them in a civil manner for discussion..Thats fine..if you want to be disrespective or inflammatory..you have the wrong forum.
IF I see any more of the above kind of disrespect for moderators here and this forum... you are gone.


I have seen you before....Hundreds of times on the forums... The guy that has kept other fish and comes to discus thinking that their other fish keeper experiences will offset what they don't know about discus first hand.. I have heard a thousand Times....I've kept salt for years or I bred Angels for decades...yada yada... and they question why discus keepers do what they do, almost with contempt in their posts.... The ones that become discus keepers listen to whats done and learn from it..Yes they may modify it, but they don't discount it because its different from what they did for other fish... The Choice is Yours..

This forum has benefits thousands of Hobbyists, largely because of the sharing of knowledge here by the experienced hobbyists and breeders with each other and the novices.. If you want to participate in that in constructive manner, welcome to SimplyDiscus.com... if you can't take the time to post your thoughts in civil manner and participate on the forum without causing threads like this.... Then Please do us all a favor...and leave.

thank you,
al

Hello,
I appreciate your efforts here. I did admit I was a bit harsh with my comments. I did apologize, see below for further explanations. I am no longer here to redeem myself just to further explain my comment.

I would like to note this...
"Beginners (and especially the lazy) should take the easy approach of selecting fish whose needs match the qualities of their normal tap water. Alternatively, an advanced (and energetic!) aquarist can change the water characteristics to match the fish's needs, though doing so is almomst always more difficult than first appears. In either case, you need to know enough about water chemistry to ensure that the water in your tank has the right properties for the fish you are keeping."
Source: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/chemistry.html

I would like to add that Discus' native waters are soft and acidic. I agree with the statement above and dont think you are a beginner. Being that the soft acidic water is "harder" to get, I think your lazy if you dont comply. I dont buy the "my fish live" thing.

I would also like to add.... someone turned something into nothing and blew it out of proportion......then someone important came in to do the right thing and stick up for the golden member. After seeing the gasoline poured on the flames I tried to do the right thing and explain my thinking....I guess I am just way too extreme. Cya...take care.

[brewmaster15]

Well LOL,
I always considered myself energetic in my hobby, and I have been called a lot of things but lazy aint one..

So be it... hang your hobby on a generic quote by someone that hasn't probably even raised Discus or apply what is freely being shared with you by those that have actually kept the fish for years....Doesn't matter to me.


I see no reason for discussion along these lines, anymore.

Good luck with your Discus keeping, I am sure you'll do fine. You seem to know exactly what you are doing .

I tried.
-al

[RandalB]

Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you...


RandalB

Like I said....

And Buh-Bye!

No seriously, Buh-Bye now. Have a nice Day...

RandalB