WCs from the tap

[DiscusBob]

While not popular, I've been doing my wc's from the tap for the past 4 years, but I have newer BB and have had some nitrite problems recently.

Is it posssible that a wc from the tap (with Amquel or Prime added to the tank as the water goes in) could kill the bacteria in a filter (eHeim, AC) before the 'instant' de-chlorination/de-chloraminization occurs?

Could the chlorine instatly kill large amounts of bacteria in filter media the second it comes in contact with chlorinated tap water?

I've been doing it this way with no ill effects in my 125 planted, but I'm wondering if the tap water (instantly treated) could be wreaking havoc on my established bacterial colonies?

[DiscusBob]

SOMETHING'S going on, and I haven't a clue what....Nitrite's are spiking....went from .05. to 1.0 because of a water change......so 6 hours later, I did another water change...(75%)...that pushed the nitites up to 3.0.

Obvious answer is there is nitrite/ammonia in the tap water, right? Nope...zeros accross the board. The more ammonia/nitrite free water I add to the tank, the higher the nitrites go.

All this started this morning with a nitrite count of zero...all I did was a regular water change like I always do and now it's out of control. Needless to say, all fish are on surface gulping air.

Big changes at the water plant? Nope. pH change from tap? Nope.

Did adding tap water to tank that had chlorine/chloramine in for half a second destroy ALL bacetia life in very well established eHeim 2217 and 2 Aquaclear 500s? Maybe. That's why I ask....strange that it would happen now and never in the last 4-8 years.

Also, if this theory is correct, can water go from zero nitrites to 3.0ppm in a matter of hours? Wouldn't there have to be a LOT of ammonia in the water for it to happen so quickly? There are only 8 2-3" in a 55 gallon. Wouldn't you say that 2 AC 500's and an eHeim 2217 in a 55 gallon is overkill? So would I .....but these established filters cannot handle the nitrite (ACs are all sponge).

My next step will be moving all Discus into the adult tank and not doing any water changes on the 55....gotta let it run its course, I think.

Any thoughts? This one has me at a loss....

[CAGE-RATTLER]

That does sound strange and hopefully you can figure out whats going on soon.

My community tank always gets WC from tap and i add the prime right after the tap water starts going in and have never had a problem.

Even on my juvie tank at times ......... I run out of stored water before its completely full and just top off with tap with no problems.

And i just have 2 sponge filters in the juvie tank.

Theres been alot of posts similar to this in the past month .......... so im assumming it is changes in the tap water. Higher levels of chlorine or chloramines maybe.

[Alan]

Ask your water company if they made any changes to the water source. Here where I live, our water company gets water from 2 different sources and my fish have experienced the difference. Which reminds me that we are about to have some change soon (April and December). If your source is a deep well, it may be precipitation?

HTH

[keno]

Bob, Ive never been a big fan of straight tap water, because you're forced to use some hot water, and God only knows what sort of heavy metals and other toxins have collected in that tank over the years.

As for the Nitrite, im having the same problem, although not as dramatic as yours. I just introduced 20 new fish and my filters are trying to play catch up, i obviously didnt feed enough ammonia when i wash fishless cycling.

Ive been using prime and salt to battle the nitrite and the discus are thriving, had to reduce my feeding the last few days and they are BEGGING me for more food.

I suspect somthing in your tap water changed for the worse :(

Prime works very well for nitrite spikes, but as to your cause, im at a loss.
On the label it says you can safely dose upto 5times the normal amount of prime for nitrite posiening, give it a try.

Ken

PS: How are your nitrates? I only ask cause if you're getting nitrates at least you know that all of your filter hasnt been killed.

[chago09]

ya i always add tap with a python and i put half the dose of conditioner before i add water and another half when it's done. Never had a problem and my filtration is nto even close to your i have two AC 70's(300). Did you clean your filters recently or shut them off or something. I know sometimes when I shut mine off and turn it back on a lot of stuff sometimes comes out of the filter.

[DiscusBob]

My nitrates are fairly high, too, so I guess the filters are 'working'. The nitrites got too high last night, so at 4 AM, I moved all the babies to the 125 planted tank (which got a 50% wc yesterday) and had minimal nitrite (strange, because it's always been zero).

Woke up late this morning: everybody's on the surface gasping for air. Nitrite is through the roof of my 125 planted: 5.0 ppm.

Seriously, what the f%*k?

I guess it's time to sit back and watch 'em all die one by one.

Any suggestions? Keep in mind, there is no way in hell I'm doing any more wc's.

Water changes = higher nitrites.

Maybe I'll go to Walmart and buy 55 individual gallons of bottled water.....maybe not such a bad idea...?


Hmmm...

[marilyn1998]

I was gonna ask alot questions... until both your tanks were involved.

Ok... any meds?? accidental overdose?

These are new from Dan? Could it be PH shock???????????

Could your test kit be old? I would try with another kit.

Is there a filter that may be malfunctioning? An impeller bad? A seal bad?

Wow, both tanks??? I am at a loss too. Bottled water for now, then a call to the water company is what I would do.

Good Luck!! ANd keep us informed.

I also use the python and add the prime to a cup of tank water, then pour it across the tank while it is refilling.

Damn. Hope you get it figured out!

[chago09]

i don't think prime will help you right now cause it's obviously not working in your last few wc. Ummmmm try running out and buying those chemical filters that are supposed to remove ammonia and nitrite and stuff like that. Quite honestly i've never tried it before but hell your a screwed up spot right now and are pretty desperate to try anything. Also add a airstone if you can to get some air in that tank because the fish don't sound to comfortable. Do you have anymore tanks???? if you do just take some water from those in a bucket and keep your fish in the bucket. they will survive longer in a small space before they will in a acid pool.

[chago09]

or hold on whats in your filters????? like any biomax or something that needs to be changed????? sometimes when it get's to old it just releases everything back into the water

[Dood Lee]

Biomax is biological media. It doesn't ever need to be changed.

Bob, 5ppm of nitrate shouldn't affect the fish so that they are gasping for air, even in a BB tank. My planted stays at a constant level of 10-15 ppm and my grow out BB tank stays at around 5-10ppm. All my fish are fine. There might be something else amiss, especially since your fish seem to be lacking air. What are the ammonia and nitrite levels in your tanks?

[DiscusBob]

Ammonia is at or near zero...nitrate is there, but in the safe zone. Maybe I'm repoting the nitrite levels wrong, Dood: I'm using those dipping sticks to test...nitrite is bright pink which indicates toxic levels of nitrite, plus their behavior is indicative of nitrite poisoning.

I've been using Amquel/Amquel plus for the water changes...don't think I'm OD-ing. I add it to a bucket, fill it with tap water, mix it up and immediately add it to the tank...this way I'm relatively sure the water I'm adding has come it contact with the Amquel (it works instantly, right?).

I just came back from the lfs and got some Prime in case I was OD-ing on the Amquel. I added the emergency dose (5 times normal) to the 125.

Question: If I add a nitrite remover to water, will a test still show a positive nitrite reading? I know this is the case with ammonia removers....

I guess I haven't given up yet. Maybe I'll drain the 55 and fill it with new tap water. How long can a cannister or AC filter be turned off before worrying about bacteria dying?

Oh...and pH levels are about 6.4 now...usually 7.4....don't know why

[DiscusBob]

Marilyn:

No meds...if there was an overdose it was with Amquel (reduces O2) which is why I switched to Prime.

I've had the fishes 8 days...doing OK until recently...pH was about 7.4 when introduced to tank.

Test kit is new: those dipping sticks.

All 3 eHeims (2 2217s & a 2213) and 3 AC 500s (divided between the 125 and 55) are chrurning out water as fast as ever.

[White Worm]

Please get yourself a test kit, those strips are not very accurate. Lots of surface agitation which will increase oxygen. If you are filling straight from tap, the water is not oxygenated. Try tap to bucket (add prime)(lots of splashing) then to tank (lots of splashing). More wc=less oxygen. Lay off the water change for a day and let the water gas off. Add more air.

[DiscusBob]

Mybe I should drop the levels of the tanks by 20% and let the AC 'waterfall' into the tanks?

[White Worm]

If you have little surface agitation, you will have little oxygenation. Yes, splash=surface agitation and add a couple airstones or a power head aimed at the surface of the water.

[RandalB]

Sounds like your water utility flushed their lines recently. A strong dose of an Anti-bacterial agent such as alum will kill off the biofilter and give you the nitrite problems you are describing. Your utility may also have recently switched to a higher concentration of Chlorine or Chloramine to respond to an issue. That may be overwhelming your dechlor and adding ammonia at the same time. Ether way, you may want to contact the local water utility and see what you can find out.

As far as treatment goes, you need to add salt to help overcome the nitrite poisoning, 1-2 Tsp per gallon and see if you can get a cycled sponge from someone to start processing the Nitrite. Increasing aeration is also a good idea. Amquel or a similar treatment may also help the situation. Adding Bottled water is only a good idea if you can treat it to match parameters. Your fish are being stressed right now, try to avoid anything that might stress them more.

HTH,
RandalB

[Dood Lee]

My bad Bob, I misread your post :(

If your nitrite readings are indeed 5.0ppm, then Randals advice is essentially the course of action I would take.

[DiscusBob]

I dropped the water level ...added Prime...haven't tested the water yet, but the fish are no longer on the surface gulping air. A band-aid at best. Water Co. is supposed to get back to me about any unusual activity...their chemist is out right now.

[Alan]

If you can get a hold of Cloram-X right now, get one. It's way cheaper than Prime or Amquel and works better, at least for me.

For a temporary fix on your nitrites, try getting a box filter and put carbon. This will hopefully clear your tank of the nasties. Remove them an hour or two after you test your water and it shows clear.

Calling your water company is still a must. You have to find the root of the problem.

HTH

[White Worm]

Picture of your tank?

[White Worm]

You can also 2x dose of prime plus do the salt (2 tbspns per 10g). Lots of surface agitation and I think they will do better.

[DiscusBob]

Does salt do something chemically to the nitrite? I know it reduces stress in fish...not sure why. I know to used non-iodized salt...but I haven't done it yet.

What exactly will the carbon do? Will it remove nitrite?

I did add some ammo chips to one of the ACs...just to slow down the cycle for now.

At least now there seems to be a glimmer of hope

[White Worm]

Salt reduces the effects of nitrite. Carbon removes chemicals, and nutrients from the water. It also removes waste but it has a chance of releasing all the crap back into the tank if you dont change it often. Remember, there is always hope until the end. Dont quit now and lets get these fish better.

[Alan]

Adding salt in your tank is based on the principle of osmosis. Osmosis is the movement of water molecules from an area of high concentration (of water) to an area of low concentration.

Freshwater fish have more solutes in their body than the water they are in, so water tends to seep into their body. Their body then works hard to "pump" out the water as waste. If they don't their cells explode. When you add salt in the water, you increase the concentration of solutes in the water (the area of low concentration). The body of the fish doesn't have to work as hard to pump out the water giving it more energy to do other bodily functions like poison control (In your case, nitrite poisoning). This also means the volume of contaminated water seeping into the body of your fish via osmosis is reduced.

Putting carbon in your tank is a *temporary* fix. As mentioned above, you need to remove it after the nasties are out of your tank. For one reason or another, discus don't like carbon. It usually takes less than a day for carbon to "absorb" the chemicals in the water. The best way to witness how carbon works is to put Methylene Blue or any colored medication in your tank. Put a box filter with carbon in it afterwards. The carbon will absorb the color.

You still need to get your bio filter going so you need to find a cycled filter or Bio-spira if your LFS carries it. I haven't used Bio-spira but I've read a number of success stories about it.

As Randal mentioned, your water company may have flushed the lines. So you really need to talk with someone there as I have indicated on my first post on your thread. They (the water company) may not be done yet so don't just put the cycled filter or Bio-spira in, unless you know what's in the "new" water your putting in, because you may just get back to square one.

HTH

[kaceyo]

What I find hardest to account for is that only the Nitrite is building up to toxic levels. If the biofilter was wiped out it would be ammonia building up. Under certain conditions a biofilter can actualy convert nitrate back into nitrite, like when an arobic biofilter goes anarobic. But I doubt both filters would have the same problem at the same time. Once the salt is in (which is very important) and the water level lowered for splash effect, go buy a good nitrite test and see if that was realy the problem. Also check inside the filters for a rotton egg smell. Good luck with this, I hope you figure it out.

Kacey

[White Worm]

Yeah, what alan said, lol. Good explanation!
Kaceyo, I beleive he said he was already using ammo chips.
You can continue with water changes but just do smaller and not as frequent. Give the water time to gas off. If you are doing 100% or even 50% daily with little agitation, you are not giving the water time to oxygenate. I use sponge filters, air stones and hob filters for agitation

[kaceyo]

Mike,
The ammo chips weren't added because of high ammonia, but to keep the ammonia thats available to be converted into more nitrites at a minimum, which was a good idea.

Kacey

[DiscusBob]

As of right now...things have stabilized. I'm still not sure what's going on, but I'm just going to let things be for a while....they're swimming around and eating, always a good sign....but something big and bad happened. Thanks for all your input...I put a lot of into action today....I have post its all over the fridge...

Some pics of what I've been trying to save (with your help):

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49246

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49282

[keno]

Bob, hang in there, i can attest to the salt and Prime helping with nitrite, what ever you do, dont stop using the prime until your filters/water is back to normal.

On a side note, this is one of the reasons I run my tap water thru an HMA filter and store it. the HMA filter uses a CBR2-10 carbon block filter. This is different than a GAC filter or Coconut carbon filter used in RO water. It wont alter ph or hardness(the harder the better i think for growing out).

I had 2 very bad experiences using straight tap water, similar to yours, will never go back to straight tap again, you just never know what the water company is doing.

Keep up with the salt and prime to get thru the nitrite, you'll get there :)

Ken

[kaceyo]

Bob,
glad to hear it's settled down. Let us knw if you pin it down.

Kacey

[White Worm]

Very curious to know what has helped and made the difference. Keep us informed.

[DiscusBob]

Nitrite is still testing at 3.0 ppm, so the problem is still there....but the fish don't seem as stressed and are not gulping air.

The good news is nobody's dead yet. The bad news is nitrite is still lurking.

I guess the Prime and salt are working. I know salt is bad for plants, but that's the least of my worries now.

The next time I dose with Prime, can I still do the mega dose? Or should I go with one capful per 50 gallons?

[DiscusBob]

Oh: I never got this one answered: will using Prime still give me a 'false' positive reading on the test kit?

Prime doesn't eliminate nitrite, it just converts it to a non toxic form of nitrite, right? Like Ammo lock and Ammonia...

Does the Prime 'wear off' after 24 hours turning the nitrite toxic again? Will dosing it again tomorrow (Friday) keep it non-toxic?

[kaceyo]

The Nitrite is still there, just as you said, so it will show up on the test. You can add up to 1 tsp of prime p/10 gals every 24 hrs w/out doing a wc. But you'll need to check and see how much the Nitrite increases in a givin period of time. Say, 12hrs. Is it raising now even without wc's? Or stay the same? In the morning check the levels before and after a small wc to see what it's doing. We still don't know where it's coming from and the Prime is only there to detox whats already there. Normaly you'd be advised to step up wc's rather than use extra Prime so it's hard to give advise till we know why it's happening.

Kacey

[keno]

Bob, I get false readings when testing for ammonia when using prime, but as far as nitrite I dont think prime affects the 2 test kits im using, one being tetra and the other nutrafin/hagen.

I would go with the standard does of prime for now, if your fish start to show effects of nitrite poisening then you could up it.

How is your planted tank now?

Ken

[DiscusBob]

Last night, the nitrite reading was 3.0ppm...this afternoon it's zero. Nitrate at 20ppm, so I'm going to do a small water change.

Hopefully this is the end of it; thanks to everyone who offered their sound advice...it helped not only with my water chemistry but also helped me press on. After day 4, I was ready to give up.

Also, depite occasional readings of 5.0ppm, I didn't lose a single fish out of 18.

The next challenge will be to put the juvies (8) back in their 55g. I will do this slowly and carefully....

Thanks again,

Bob

[marilyn1998]

Way to go Bob!!!! Did you ever hear back from the water company?

[kaceyo]

Thats Great!!!! I'd also be interested in hearing what the water co has to say. If they don't call you back, call them again. But you probably don't even want to hear the word Ntrite again, right? lol.

Kacey

[Jarrod]

Bob...glad to hear you got a handle on things!! Good job.
Jarrod

[Alan]

Glad to hear you weathered this one without any casualties. You could have given up but you didn't. U da man! :thumbsup: :D

[DiscusBob]

Thanks guys....I HOPE it's over...it should be...if the ammonia and nitrite are gone, the bio filters must be working OK (and working well with 18 fishes in one tank!).

I never heard back from the water co., but they're chemist isn't due back until Monday.

I'm overkilling on the filtration at the moment: 3 AC500s an 2 eHeims are active in the 125g. In the fishless 55, an AC500 and an eheim 2217 are going. That tank is also down to zero. I will add the juvies back slowly so as not to put too much of a load on the filters...and of course, keep a close eye on the nitrite and ammonia levels.

The triple waterfall effect has forced everyone to the left side of the tank, so I'm going to raise the water level again.

How far do you guys let the water fall to the surface if you're using AC filter?
The height on mine is about 10"...great for aeration, but my Discus like calmer waters.