questions on 2 new juvies

[drivel111]

Hello everyone! I am brand new to simply discus and somewhat new to discus in general. I had a panda discus for about a year and a half that mysteriously died along with all but one of my fish.(a colombian tetra thats still going strong.) I think there may have been a parasite introduced via live bloodworms, but not sure.
That was about 6 mos. ago and I have since taken all gravel out and replaced it with flourite substrate. I have a 29 gal. tank and added lots of live plants and new fish-2 cory cats, 4 glass cats, 3 neon tetras, 1 albino bushynose pleco, and 2 otocynclis. all fish are pretty small and were added over a period of 6 mos. or so.
My filter is a HOB (aquaclear 50) with sponge, carbon, and biobag. I have an airstone for aeration and the temp is at 82. water ph is at 7. ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites were good last time i had a test 2 weeks ago. I feed a combo of tetra color flakes and frozen bloodworms. I do weekly water changes of 25%.
Now, I added the discus prior to finding this wonderful site so I did not quarantine as I have seen is a huge reccomendation. I've had them about a week.
The discus are juvies and about 2 1/2in. diameter. the Lfs thinks one is a turquoise? and the other not sure, since theyre juvies and color is not showing too much yet. They hide a lot(especially when I'm in front of tank) and they dont go for the food right as I drop it in. they barely peck at it off the ground even when I'm away from tank. One gets very dark a lot. he hangs out at back bottom of tank behind plants a lot too. even when swimming around he's still pretty dark but I have seen him also when he looks normal and not so dark.
I have seen a couple of white spots on them, but theyre very tiny and I'm thinking it might be ich. I would like to try to treat with temp.raise and salt, but I not sure how high temp should be, how much salt, etc. Maybe thats not even a good idea.
Does anyone have any ideas as to how to control the ich? Anyone have any suggestions regarding the tank in general? I know a 29gal. is pretty small for discus but have heard it can be done. I may consider getting a 55 in the future but for now its out of the question.
Thanks to all and sorry this post was so long!! just wanted to give u all background info!!
-Mark (drivel111)

[BIGFOOT]

Wecome to Simply

Sorry I am not going to touch your question there are much better Discus people here than me. I just want to Welcome you to our Board.

[drivel111]

Thanks!

[Giniel]

Welcome to simply Mark,

I would raise the temp.to 86 and add 2 tablespoons of salt to 10 gallon to start with .Also make sure to do large water changes to help with ich also.
HTH
Debbie

[RyanH]

You need to check the compatibility of the species you've selected for your tank. Discus require warm water (84-86) for optimum health. The Neons, for example, won't be able to live in those temperatures.

Same thing goes for the plants. It's important to select plants that can take the heat as well.

Also, if a Discus has ich, it means the water is too cool. Ich cannot survive in mid-80 temperatures.

If you are shooting for a planted community tank, then you'll want to move your Discus. If you want to have a Discus tank, you'll need to select tankmates that are compatible.

I'd spend some time looking around in the planted tank section as well as the tankmates for Discus section. There's some really good information in those forums that can help you.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//forumdisplay.php?f=37

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//forumdisplay.php?f=92

hth :)

-Ryan

[DiscusinDaytona]

Welcome Mark,
Are you still only doing 25% wc once a week? I'd step that up a bit too. Discus need really clean water. I do at least 25% daily. Usually 30-50%. You'll see all through the forum how important regular wc's are.

Good luck with your new fisheys!

Tina

[Alight]

I'll guess that your tank is cycled, so that is probably not an issue. However, if I were you, I wouldn't rely on any body else's tests. Get an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master test kit (less than $14 at Pet Smart if you look it up online, print it out and take it your local Pet Smart). There are a bunch of things that can cause ammonia and nitrites in your tank, and this will cause all of the symptoms you see. The other possibility is nitrates. Good is not an answer, as most lfs think 40 ppm is "good". They should be less than 10 ppm and kept that way by water changes. This may be what did in your previous fish along with the DOCs (dissolved Organic Compounds) that accumulate along with the nitrates. Nitrates and DOCs are the main reason to do adequate water changes. For the number of fish you have and tank you have 2, 50% water changes per week, minimum. Raising temp to 86 F is also very highly recommended.

Next, if these were from an lfs, you probably need to treat for nematodes and flagellates at the very least. Get some metronidazole and start that treatment, then get some fenbendazole or levamisole and do that treatment. Do the search thing on this site, and look at the library under diseases and parasites for more info on these.

Welcome to Simply, and have fun with Discus! They are really very hardy once you know the secret, which is WC, WC, WC.

Al Light

[Dissident]

Welcome!

A lot of good advice on temp and WC.
A lot of plants will do fine in the mid 80's I keep mine at 85F and plants do well.

Head over to the planted/biotope area for spacific Qs regarding plants/ferts/etc but before you get there the health of you fish will be #1.

[drivel111]

Wow, thanks to everyone who has responded so quickly! taken all advice in and this is what I have done so far... first I did a 40% or so WC yesterday and then added RO water and salt. Then raised the temp to 86. I took out the carbon and added some Ich-X. Today I examined the discus again and noticed the one had a weird lesion on his body(upper middle, little smaller than a dime size). It sorta looked like he was peeling or something? and the lesion was light in color. Not raw looking as I have seen in disease section of website. He was also breathing fast and hanging out near the bubbles of aeration at surface. One more very interesting thing is that he had whitish poop hanging from him. He hasn't had any poop hanging since I got him- -not sure if its the salt helping this or just his time to go. It looks like the signs are pointing to Hex. So I went out and got some Metronidazole, did a 50% WC and added that, along with a little more salt to compensate for WC. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I can't see the ich spots any more so perhaps the temp and salt did okay? I think the hex should be taken care of first. One more question, I put the Metro in today, should I do another 50% WC tomorrow and add more metro tomorrow? or what is the best thing? The instructions on bottle are sorta vague. Thanks again all!
-Mark

[RyanH]

Hi Mark,

There are two things here that are an immediate concern to me:

1. Salt is not at all good for most plants.

2. Metronidazole is pretty much worthless unless it is used in conjunction with heat (92 degrees) and in multiple daily dosages (3 times per day).

If you are having problems with your fish, you should remove them from your planted tank and put them in a quarantine tank for treatment. Crank the heat up to 92-93 degrees and dose the metro at 500mg/10 gallons, three times per day for 5 days. Change 50% of your water every day.

In addition:

External wounds that you have described here are often exacerbated, or even caused by, fungal or bacterial infections that are a result of a dirty tank. Juvenile Discus are much more susceptible to these sorts of problems.

Also, juveniles are often quite difficult to keep healthy and grow out in a planted tank as you are now finding out. It is really best for the fish to keep them in a cleaner environment that a BB tank provides until they have matured and reached their size potential. The reason being that it is very difficult to keep the tank and water as clean as Discus need it to be for optimal health.

Once they are mature and have reached a size that you are happy with, throw them back into the planted tank. Until then, I'd suggest taking the time to learn how to care for them properly and leave the showtank for your tetras and other community fish.

hth :)
-Ryan

[drivel111]

Hi Mark,

There are two things here that are an immediate concern to me:

1. Salt is not at all good for most plants.

2. Metronidazole is pretty much worthless unless it is used in conjunction with heat (92 degrees) and in multiple daily dosages (3 times per day).

If you are having problems with your fish, you should remove them from your planted tank and put them in a quarantine tank for treatment. Crank the heat up to 92-93 degrees and dose the metro at 500mg/10 gallons, three times per day for 5 days. Change 50% of your water every day.

In addition:

External wounds that you have described here are often exacerbated, or even caused by, fungal or bacterial infections that are a result of a dirty tank. Juvenile Discus are much more susceptible to these sorts of problems.

Also, juveniles are often quite difficult to keep healthy and grow out in a planted tank as you are now finding out. It is really best for the fish to keep them in a cleaner environment that a BB tank provides until they have matured and reached their size potential. The reason being that it is very difficult to keep the tank and water as clean as Discus need it to be for optimal health.

Once they are mature and have reached a size that you are happy with, throw them back into the planted tank. Until then, I'd suggest taking the time to learn how to care for them properly and leave the showtank for your tetras and other community fish.

hth :)
-Ryan
Damn... I didnt realize all this before getting going, I just relied on the LFS knowledge and advice. The LFS owner that I usually speak with said he used to have a discus hatchery back in MI, so I figured I'm talking to the right guy. For the most part I trust him, I don't think he is just trying to make a buck. Unfortunately, for now, I live in a small apt. and do not have the means to set up a BB or get a bigger tank, etc. so I think I am going to give it my best shot by treating them in the current conditions and rely on the advice I get from this forum. Hopefully with a little luck and hard work the fish will get better and be happy! Until then, my fingers are crossed. Thanks a lot for your reply, I'm gonna increase the temp and add more metro per day along with the WC's. This forum is soooo amazing!!!
-Mark

[Alight]

Given the gasping bit, I'm guessing you have ammonia in the tank. You may have added to much of a bioload too quickly. The lesion could just be damage due to quick movements or fighting, but it could also be caused or enhanced by ammonia or high nitrates (dirty water as Ryan suggested).

Get your water tested (get that test kit, too!). If ammonia is in the tank use Prime or some other compound to lock it up. If nitrates are high, do some water changes. Thorough Gravel vac in a planted tank is a must.

As Ryan indicated, bare bottom is really recommended for juvi grow out, but if not that, clean, clean, clean, and have a place in your tank with very little gravel where you can put food for the fish and it can stay a while for them to graze on.

[drivel111]

Well, the one discus that I suspected had Hex died the night before last. :( I had a feeling it was going to happen, though. But, I must say, on the brighter side, the other discus is doing great! Before, he would just stay all dark and in the corner (I think the other one was the more dominant of the two) but now he is exploring all over the tank, back to his usual color, and eating very well!
So what now? I think I might let him get used to his surroundings, gain his "king" of the tank status, and then possibly introduce more. What do you guys think? I'm gonna try to snap a pic of him and upload it, maybe some of the experts here can determine what kind he might be?
-mark

[RyanH]

If you are going to put more fish into your current setup, I'd suggest buying adults. Quarantine them for 6 weeks.