does PH effect the fish?

[LNGUYEN]

When I was in college around 1996, I kept 3 discus in a 20 gallon tank. At that time, I kept water at PH 6.8 all the time and I remembered my fishes were happy and it was so easy to tame them. I didn't age water, just change it and adjust ph with h2so4 from chemistry lab.

Recently, I go back to have discus again. with 75 gallon tank and start to add discuses. I don't adjust ph as before and just do the water change. So far, I lost 4 discus, and others are not looking happy. They don't like to eat, they shy and like to hide more than playing. I am a bit tired to worry about them all the time.

Right now my water is keeping at 86f, no ammonia, no nitrite and nitrate is 10ppm. Ph is about 7.8.

The whole thing make me think if they realy comfy in a more acidic water? If that is the case, then I will get a barrel for aging water and adjust those water to 6.8.

[lbquoc]

From what I read on this forum, pH level does not matter much. What matter is pH stability. My guess is that the pH from your tap water is not stable and the pH fluctuation in the tank causes stress on your fish. Aged water is the way to go. JMO

[Carol_Roberts]

Mine are kept in aged 7.8 water and do fine.

[1977]

Mine is around 8 and mine are happy and breeding so definitely stability is key. This is the tricky part, but if your at 7.8 aged then I don't see that being the problem. Maybe increase water changes for a while and see if they perk up. I assume you are using some kind of conditioner to remove chlorine and chloromines?

[bennyblanco]

how long you had them,my discus start to act normal after 2 1/2 weeks they Yost to hide alot and eat after i left the room,but i didn't loose no discus cause of that.did you QT your discus when you got them!! o by the way sorry for your lost!!!!

[LNGUYEN]

Update:

After treating the whole tank with Metro since my blue diamond had white poop and hole in the head. He is eating like a pig now and holes in the head started to get smaller. I got another two from a local breeder about two weeks ago. The red melon (I think) eats like there is no tomorrow after one week. The other (I don't know the name) swim around, look very relax, and come close to the food but doesn't take a bite. After the second week, it is still doing the same thing, swim around, but not bite. I think he just try to piss me off to see who got more gut. What is the trick should I do to get him eat? beside buying a fish and chop the head off in front of him! I demand some respect from him. By the way I feed them blood worm as of the breeder does.

[bullheimer]

do yourself a favor and don't buy any more new fish while you have sick fish or medicine in the tank, bro

[LNGUYEN]

Actually, no one on medicine no more. That is why I got new fishes.

[Stillwater Aquatics]

stable ph isn't a problem but ph bounce or just throwing in some fish that were kept in a different ph can have a hard time. remember ph shock - buckets of fish can be lost.... but then again it looks like other problems anyways

[yeomans]

A stable ph is very important,when changes occur it is usually the same time when health problems arise. You could always try aging your water. An acidic ph is often associated with discus, but is not always needed. I should also recomend some type of quarintine tank, this would help to get rid of future problems with health. hope this helps josh

[LNGUYEN]

Excellent advice. Thanks, I'll start to age water from now on.

[raglanroad]

Just wondering if anyone has found any evidence from any reputable source that suddenly changing pH only has any bad effect ? : ) as an example from pH 8 to pH 6.8.
Dave

[sleonard]

I lost a nice fish to a Ph crash. It was before I found Simply and learned that I could use tap water. I was using 100% RO w/ RO Right & Discus Essential. Ph dropped from about 7 to 6.3-6.4 and one fish died while the other 2 were very unhappy.

[raglanroad]

sleonard,
while you had a fish die during that time, I would suggest it may have had nothing whatever to do with the pH.
Why should I say that? Many reasons, including the fact that fish have been through pH changes bigger than that with no known bad effect. It happens all the time, actually.
Just think about this: the sudden pH change info has been repeated in almost every book and and forum ad nauseum. It may be the most widespread information on fish that has NOT ONE single shred of scientific EVIDENCE to back it.
Yeah. Try and find one tiny morsel of evidence, on a subject talked about so much that everyone in the hobby knows it.
Would you not think it strange, if not one person on any forum has ever come up with a SINGLE piece of literature proving it? I have never found any evidence, but since the "facts" are so well published on pH change dangers, it should be one of the easiest facts to confirm.

Does rational skepticism exist in the hobby?

Dave

[ShinShin]

I wouldn't consider a 0.6 drop in pH a crash, and doubt that such a drop would kill a discus. Discus can handle a 0.5 change up or down without complications at all.

I did once have an accident when using DI water and SeaChem acid buffer. I mismeasured the buffer and dropped the pH from 6.0 to 3.0. All 6 discus were laying on the bottom of the tank gasping for their lives in minutes. A quick change of water straight from the tap revived them. All lived.

Mat

[Cosmo]

I had a similar mishap as Mat several years ago when I first started using RO and had trouble keeping the ph stable. Never saw any signs of distress except the one time the ph dipped to about 3.8.. anything above that and they were fine. Keep them at a very stable 6.2 now.

Agree that stability is the key.

Jim

[LNGUYEN]

I read a book "Discus as a hoby" by Jim E. Quarles from around 1994. He stated that Discus kept in very hard water while they grow from fry to adults may never be able to reproduce. Hard water reduces the males ability to produce sperm. (p. 41)

Does the idea change since? I see a lot of people using regular tap water with high PH and still breed them later

[Planted]

The native waters are soft and low pH.

You can adapt your fish to any pH... this is obvious from the replies here. If you would like to keep fish in their native habitat then you should have soft water and low pH. It seems that because a fish has lived in other pH then that is acceptable.

The pH and Discus issue here is almost as good as the ro water and pH problems thing.

I am a purist I guess. I see it more of a convenience when I see someone mentioning 7.0+ pH. But hey these fish are tank bred for our keeping.

I use soft water with low pH (6.x)

[raglanroad]

The incidents involving sudden problems with pH also involve chemicals. In RO water is it possible some chemicals if overdosed are forced into the fish ?
Is it possible that buffer changes co2 levels, and respiration problems result?

just the fact that the MASSIVE changes (as in the logarithmic nature of the pH scale indicates) produce no problems, shows the relative harmlessness of pH change. Concentration of ions is 10X for each point. That is a massive change, from pH 8 to pH 6.8 , but it will not cause problems.
Try altering any other water parameter that way.
Of course, there is a point where acid or base will kill. But sudden changes within NORMAL parameters will not harm fish visibly, or at least there is NO EVIDENCE for that, while many have altered the pH drastically, and found no ill effect.

This is how I rationalize why pH changes are seen to do harm at times.

1)ammonium in the water being changed to ammonia when pH went UP (usually coincides with other newbie tank problems, like filter blockage or new filter.)

2)changes in pH were accomplished by altering other parameters drastically, such as TDS was changed rapidly, and buffering changed rapidly, such as when pH is made to go DOWN .

3)see above reasons why the common perception of going higher is safer than going lower on pH change. When going higher, TDS is usually increased. The cells may dehydrate. Bad but reversible. Going to lower pH, the TDS is usually decreased. Cells over-hydrate and can rupture. Coincidentally, ;) the same is said for hardness, changing UP is not as harmful as changing DOWN. See TDS explanation above.

that's all I can make of this puzzle, since there seem to be no scientific facts available on this pH change subject.

Dave

[Alight]

I agree with you 100%, David.

It's the things that caused the pH change, or went along with the pH change, not the pH change itself that began the myth that pH changes are dangerous for fish and Discus fish in particular.

[raglanroad]

Alight, the really weird part is that since Col. Scheel published his findings that he could plop the fish back and forth, changing pH , with no ill effects shown, and his tests have been copied and confirmed by aquarists many times over, this thing persists.
If the original pH harm "knowledge" came from something material or concrete, it might be understandable.
Yet almost 40 years later this same stuff is unknown to most aquarists, because of literature which cites no scientific references or even personal testing !

from Scheel's book:

"I spawn my non-annual species in rather small tanks (about one gallon of
water) and the tanks contain nothing but a mop and the water. Females are
separated from males for at least one week, while both sexes are heavily
fed. Only one female is placed with the male in the tank, because one female
may eat eggs when the other is spawning. As my two types of water have
similar salinities I can move the individuals right in and right out of one
type of water without any harm. Differences in pH values, even from 5.0 to
8.0 have not produced any harm when individuals suddenly are moved from one
type of water to the other."

[raglanroad]

BTW, all my wild fish - altums, Rio Negro "paradox" angelfish, , sterbai corys, all are in pure RO of TDS 5 ppm. 0 kH at the moment.

How much do you think the pH changes when I do a 60% or 100% WC? hehehehe

Why don't I know the exact measurements?
'Cause I don't give a rat's tail !
I know it is between 6.8 and 4.5 at any given time.

[Alight]

Urban myths more difficult to believe than this one, live on and on. Just part of why human beings are human beings.

[Planted]

I know one scientific fact maybe two.

A. the pH of the native waters are low, the water is soft.

B. that quote from Scheel's book is about killifish. My killi could live in a puddle out back of my house for weeks, thats not about Discus.

I have a pH issue now and noticed changes in my Discus...I just bumped up the pH a little from below 6 as the pH rises the fish seem better and better.

Drastic pH changes are bad for Discus and probably not good for other fish either. Drastic would mean putting the fish out of its element.
I believe extreme differences in pH from the native water is stressful.

[Cosmo]

... and most of them work here!!... I think is how that sixth sense derivative ended when it was circulating a few years back. Not sure how it fits into this discussion :confused: One of the purposes of this forum is the free exchange of ideas and information. We shouldn't disrespect the positions of others simply because we may not agree with them

I don't necessarily disagree with most of the statements above, as I keep my fish in soft acidic RO water as well, although mine is remineralized somewhat. Fish like all living organisms require a degree of salts and minerals for metabolic purposes. There are also however, many people on this forum far more experienced than I that keep their Discus in tap water at hi TDS and hi ph .. it works for them.

There are a couple of important points I think need to be made though..

First, is the audience... this IS the beginners section I believe. What might work for an experienced hobbiest may prove disastrous for someone just starting out. Many Discus keepers either don't have the time, desire, or other resources to attempt to reproduce a "wild" environment.. attempting to do so without the requisite knowledge will often lead to disease and/or death of the fish.

Which leads to the second point.. the overall health of the fish. I for one have never understood why people think of Discus as being difficult to keep, but, one only needs to read the disease section to know there are a lot of people out there who are having a lot of issues with their fishes health. IMO often due to poor water quality, or, un-needed treatments for misinterpreted "symptoms" that weaken the fishes immune system to actual threats. The fact is though, that a fish with a compromised immune system may not survive many of the same experiences (ph, temp fluctuations, etc) that a healthy fish would simply shrug off.

I can't tell you the exact ph of the water in my tanks either, not because I don't care, but because I know from experience that my water is stable and doesn't fluctuate between WCs.. therefore.. I "know" it's the same 6.2 as the water I just added a few minutes ago.. which I DID check. From the little I've read, ph fluctuations in the wild are more seasonal rather than daily anyway..

My 2 cents.. for beginners, stability is the key. Learn your fish, your water chemistry, and insure your stock is healthy.. then.. If/when you have the time, desire, resources to alter your water safely and consistently... go for it :)

Jim

[Cosmo]

Planted.. I agree with you in the overall.. question would be that unless you're buying only Wilds.. how do you know what the farm/tank raised fishes "natural" element really is?

Jim

[raglanroad]

Planted,
Though Scheel was a killie nut, that was about 40 years ago !

Since then, many types of fish have been seen to be the same, they all tolerate pH changes, and drastic ones too.(within reason, within normal aquarium parameters)

Would you say wild Pterophyllum altum are toilet dwellers ? Are domestic discus more sensitive than altum ? :balloon:

Jim,
About the difficulty of "doctoring " the water : can be trouble once you get into the chemicals. No need for them.

I think this "buffering" dogma is also for the birds. When pH drops it is because the water is dirty and needs to be changed, not masked by pH "stability" to seem like nothing is going on...

pH drop is in fact an excellent indicator that waste is building up. Using pH drop to know the tank is dirty is much preferable to masking the effects of waste. You can see the relationship by the rising TDS at the same time as pH drops.

I see no reason that beginners should not be aware that buffering IS a problem and that dispensing with the whole rigamarole is actually EASIER than fighting the water chemistry.
I think we all have newbie stories about getting into trouble with buffers !

Dave

[Alight]

Sorrry guys, the quote was not meant to be disrespectful. I had a feeling it might be taken as disrespect for those on this thread, but it really wasn't meant to. I almost stuck LOL by it but thought that might look even worse. It is human nature to hold on to often repeated statements, even if there is ample evidence that the statement may not be true. Advertising agencies and politicians count on it. No one is immune from it. Because of this, it is good to examine some of the "facts" you have put away as truth from time to time, just because it is human nature to blindly believe.


There are many who have never heard the evidence that pH changes are not harmful to Discus, and/or who have never tested it out themselves to really see that pH doesn't matter, much.


As to very low pH, yes this can be damaging to fish. Very low pH is what kills off fish in the lakes in the Adirondacks. Part of this is because of its effects on invertebrates that the fish feed on. Also, very low pH (somewhere below 5-4) can kill off biofilters (I've done this so I know), and lower pH yet can really burn tissues (I've done this, too). Same is true of very high pH. With very low pH, often this is due to lack of water changes which causes the accumulation of nitric acid and other toxic chemicals from the fish waste. The combination can be quite deadly at pHs that are not low enough to kill of biofilters. This is the pH "crash" we hear about.

As to what I actually do, I keep my Discus in RO mixed with tap water. Adults at 5 GH, and 6.2 pH controlled by pinpoint CO2 controller (30 ppm CO2) in a planted tank. Juvies are kept at 6-7 GH at pH between 7 and 6.5 or so. Breeders at 2 GH and pH around 6.5. I use baking soda to buffer the pH to the levels I use. I've been buffering water for 30 years, but I tell everyone I sell my fish to not to do as I do, but to do as I say, and just use their water as it is.

I experimented with all kinds of water conditions on some culls and grow outs and found that nearly any GH and pH suited them fine, as long as the GH didn't change too much, too fast.

I routinely match the water that my fish are going to with the water in the buyers tanks, to make sure the fish are adapted and have one less stress removed from the transfer experience.

[raglanroad]

I don't care about biofilters any more, either. At the pH I have, ammonia is not a problem. The biofilter does start up if you give it a chance, even at pH 4.5, but I really don't want it to.:alien:

[raglanroad]

Ok, it's in the beginner section but I can't resist since it pertains to the discussion. Never knock a killie nut. them guys are heavy

http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/month.9905/msg00425.html

makes me think about the chemicals involved with buffering

[Planted]

Planted.. I agree with you in the overall.. question would be that unless you're buying only Wilds.. how do you know what the farm/tank raised fishes "natural" element really is?

Jim

When I buy Discus I look at the breeders water characteristics. If they arent like mine or dont recommend what I want to hear then I think they dont know what they are doing and dont buy from them.



Would you say wild Pterophyllum altum are toilet dwellers ? Are domestic discus more sensitive than altum ?

I dont know about Altums, if what I do know is correct then they would be way more sensitive to a "non-native habitat".

I dont mean to disrespect its just I own a Killi and Discus. They are WAY different as far as what each can withstand.

[Cosmo]

Raglan..

Agree with you completely that doctoring water with chemicals can be troubling.. even downright dangerous as commercial additives tend to be quite potent and can yield disastrous results if used incorrectly. I've found the manufacturers dosage guidelines to be next to worthless too :(

IMO, it should not be attempted without good quality digital meters, and, a good knowledge of your source water either. AND, always check the ingredients before you buy so you're not unknowingly adding phosphates or nitrates.

I add salts, buffers, and trace elements. For the first four months or so I monitored both the fresh water and tank water often, and kept detailed logs of what went in and what the results were. It was a PITA, and probably fairly stressful on the fish, but I eventually arrived at the mixture that yielded the soft, acidic, and stable water that I wanted. Over the years it has become more of an art than a science, and I find it easy to dose the water in such a way as to raise or lower the parameters without sacrificing stability.

I only check the water in the actual tanks very occassionally now and find it is always within a tenth of what it is intended to be. I continue to check the remineralized RO water before any WC to insure the parameters are what I want. I also age the water by aerating and circulating the RO and additives as the storage tanks fill to insure even dispersion.

Works for me at least :)

Jim

[hexed]

Lnguyen,
You also need to understand that you MUST always quarantine all your fish before adding them to your existing tank. Just because they look healthy does not mean they are :(
You stated that you got new fish and added them to your tank. Always QT everything for about 4-6 weeks. During this time you should treat the new fish for external parasites, internal parasites and any illness you see before putting them in the tank.
Did you add new fish to your tank before you lost the 4 discus?
Frank

[Cosmo]

Excellent point Frank :)

Lack of sufficient quarantine procedures is probably the major cause of all the disease issues we see posted every day.

ALWAYS quarantine, no matter who you buy the fish from

Jim

[Planted]

My fish are showing distress signs because of pH. See my first post, I now found out my pH "crashed" it was so low.....because of what was said about finding that ro water recipe. Yes it is quite an art making ro water...I sorta got cocky and started eyeing stuff up, not testing, making up for missed addiditives...all sorts of NO NO's...I thought everything was perfect but my pH was too low...now that I realized pH was my problem I began to fix it...the Discus are now showing much better.

Now... I have my ro recipe down I think...:confused:

On another note...I am also quarantining my new Discus...took some advice and QT...also went bare bottom. I dont agree with the shotgun repair style of medicating new arrivals but QT is a damn good idea no matter who you get your fish from.

[Cosmo]

Took me a long time to consider going BB.. took even longer to talk my wife into it :p :D The big show tank sits in the family area on the second floor, and it just HAD to compliment the decor .. lol Now she's happy with the BB and driftwood look, and I'm happy cause it's so much less work and the fish stay healthier :) Can't imagine using substrate again in a big tank :confused:

Jim

[LNGUYEN]

Lnguyen,
You also need to understand that you MUST always quarantine all your fish before adding them to your existing tank. Just because they look healthy does not mean they are :(
You stated that you got new fish and added them to your tank. Always QT everything for about 4-6 weeks. During this time you should treat the new fish for external parasites, internal parasites and any illness you see before putting them in the tank.
Did you add new fish to your tank before you lost the 4 discus?
Frank

I lost 4 fishes because lacking of mature tank. since then I haven't lost any more. all my fish came from a local breeder 20 minutes from my house. I came to his house many times and all his discus are very healthy. I think I got hex from angel fish I got from LFS and I didn't know about quarantine before. from now on if I got fish from some one else, I'll quarantine them for sure. Right now I got 4 discus and 4 small angel fish in the tank. Three of the discus eats like there is no tomorrow. The other is still not eating eventhough I don't see any sign of sickness. I'll take a picture of him and post it here tomorrow.