Hello Discus Keepers!

[Planted]

Hello guys n gals,
I just got into keeping discus and I am reading as much as I can, I researched alot before purchasing discus also. I have been keeping fish most of my life and just started again with discus recently.

I just finished reading the "discus a bit scared" thread and just need someone to tell me the same thing. LOL. Be patient right? Its been one month so far.

My discus are acting VERY timid. I purchased 12 all together. 6 are in one tank and 6 in the other...never were they seperated or mixed. The younger red turqs were the troublesome ones on arrival but they are eating out of my hand now. The blues seemed to do well, I credited the larger size, but now they seem to be going downhill as far as personality goes. They have places to hide, I felt this was a good thing. Should I take these decorations they hide in out? I get the idea of not walking softly around them and I have been going about with that approach but it doesnt seem to be getting better.

The 6 blues are in a 90 gallon AGA. They have small rock substrate medium to dark in color, the tank is lightly planted. There are fake natural root decorations along with a tall fake natural rock and driftwood. There is a background and a glass hood with light strip on stands above the glass.

I recently upgraded my lighting and installed glass tops and removed the plastic lids. This seemed to work wonders but a few days later the discus are retreating hastily when I enter the room. I thought bright lighting was a problem but it seems the discus only come out when the lights are on and quite honestly I dont know if it was the brighter lighting or the brown plastic hoods being removed that seemed to work. They seem to have been eating better after the lighting upgrade...IE they could see the food better.

I just dont know what to do. One or more of the discus is a really dark color. It almost looks black. When I feed them...there is one or two that arent soo scared and they seem to draw the other ones out. They arent soo dark in color when they are eating this seems to change rather quickly.

The discus are in the 90 gallon with a single 3-4" killifish that seems to get ill looking in any other tank. He immediatly springs back to life so I call the 90 his home. He takes high temps well and seems to love beefheart scraps. He does not have a territory I havent ever seen him chase a fish, he is a sweetheart. I am almost thinking of relocating him just to see what happens. Could these discus be afraid of this fish? I will be getting a new 75 gallon tank soon and killi should be happy there.

Any insight on this would be extemely helpful. I am getting kinda nervous and thinking these fish may be sick.

Oh I have 0 NH3, 0 NO2, 0 NO3, 84F 6.0-6.2 pH. I use a TDS meter to determine my GH and KH and hope they are close its 70-100ppm TDS. I use rebuilt ro water no tap water. Water changes are small but frequent, 1 per 2days at 10-15%, weekend maintenance, filter cleaning in old tank water..ect.

I have a website with pictures and more of my saga.
Check it out let me know what you think. I will enjoy being a part of this forum and maybe I can provide some help at times.

[pcsb23]

Welcome on board.

If I have read this right you have six small discus in a 90Gal?? what are the other 6 in?

Firstly when growing out discus I would recommend going bare bottom - not you the tank :D

They need to be fed frequently and with a varied diet, around 4 to 6 times a day. Feed beefheart, frozen bloodworm, frozen mysis shrimp and a good quality flake or granuale. They also need regular and frequent water changes, I would up the amount to 33 - 50% ecvery 2 days as a minimum whilst they are growing.

I would recommend removing all plants and gravel etc for now until they are grown. It is possible to grow juvvies lout in planted/decorated tanks and I have done it - but it is very demanding and not something to be taken on lightly. The margin for error is non existent. BB is the way to go.

hth,

[Planted]

Hi, Thank you!
The 6 red turqs are smaller and in a 65 gallon AGA. Thats heavily planted. They share the tank with my Apistos.
So..
The 6 blues are 3.5-4 inches in the 90 gallon.
The 6 red turqs are 2.5-3 inches in the 65 gallon.

If I calculate the actual amount of water I have instead of the manufacturers label I am doing a little more.
When would a discus be considered grown or ready for a planted tank?

Edit....what is a good quality veggie flake?

[pcsb23]

To some degree the extent of growth on discus varies by strain, and also the ability of the keeper to grow them. Generally speaking a discus will to all intents and purpose stop growing when they are around 2 years old. The bulk of their growth takes place during the earlier months though, up to about 9 months of age.

Typically a young adult will be around 5" and between 9 and 12 months old. this is the earliest I would put them in a planted tank without experience of growing them out.

These are very broad brush guidelines but are not a bad rule of thumb.

As a guide I do 50% daily chganges on my juvvies which are some lovely albinos and one of my all time faves, RSG's.

hth,

[Planted]

Well I hope these blues come around. I just tried feeding them and stood right there with them. Most of them came out only one or two stayed in hiding nibbling on the drifting leftovers. I just hope they arent ill. I will try to change my water more often, the tanks are kept well. I will be on a really steady schedule after I setup my RO/DI properly. I can finish it this weekend.

I am off to find out what kind of filters you guys use.

Edit...hey you got the Eheim wet/dry eh? Cool! I will be setting mine up tomorrow. What about the Pro III? I was thinking about ditching power filters all together and using the wet/dry and Pro III. I will put the old power filters on my new tanks.

[Dood Lee]

With all the money you invested in equipment, I'm surprised you settled for HOBs to begin with. For a planted tank, sumps or canisters are definitely the way to go.

Take a moment to read Rex Grigg's site: www.rexgrigg.com. Really helpful when it comes to maintaining planted tanks.

A suggestion for feeding. Get some plastic worm cones for when (if) you feed worms. You can train your discus to eat from the cones and it helps in keeping food stuffs off the bottom of the tank. If you widen the holes a bit, tetra bit pellets can fit through them as well as minced beefheart.

[Kindredspirit]

Firstly when growing out discus I would recommend going bare bottom - not you the tank :D





But he isnt going to stay planted, Dood! lol! He is going bare bottom, right? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_2.gif Paul is correct, Planted ~ Very wise ~

Paul that was so funny up there I was so laughing! Did not sound like you at all which made it even more so!

Planted ~ Welcome to Simply! You will be reading and learning for days make no mistake about that! Just try to remember and heed what you read and learn ~ some just blow it off ~ And their discus get worse ~ You do not seem like that at all I must admit~

Hey I went to your website and I could not view the pics or the video ~ actually I am not sure I found any pics! Nice website tho! Thanks for sharing ~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_4_31.gif

[Planted]

What money? LOL. Really tho, Ive only put a few bucks into a RO filter so far. The Ehiem was expensive but the only thing so far what was expensive. I only have two HOBs and a heater really on the 90. Unless I am missing something. Oh the DE filter was sorta expensive but I use that on all my tanks so I divide the cost..LOL...I figure if I am going to drop a few hundred on fish alone I dont mind droping triple or double that to keep them alive and healthy. This is my only hobby...sort of...well only one I spend money on.

Hey I did go to Rex' site! I even emailed him and said it was a great site and asked him about a canister. I found out my bio-wheels werent such a great mate for my pressurized co2 hence my "conversion" to canisters. I was thinking about a wet/dry sump style, I may go there if the Eheim isnt what I had expected. I can always move the Eheim to a smaller tank...like my 65.

I have to read more and figure out why you go against a planted tank. If its just ease of maintenance I will appreciate what you are saying I wont argue its alot easier to clean w/out gravel and plants. I did try to read alot before I posted.

Oh my website....thank you for the compliment! If you click on the link it will take you to the main page. At the bottom of the main page there is a link to video, it will require a quicktime type player, I would recommend a quicktime alternative from a trusted codec site. If you click on the photos link at the top it should take you to a page with my photos, click on the approprate link to see the fish or equipment.

How the hell do you guys do 50% water changes daily? Tap water? My RO unit is good and its rated 100GPD I can get 10 gallons in like 5 hours..go figure, how would I get more? I have a backup/drinking RO I am installing this weekend but thats just if the main unit fails and for drinking water.

[Dood Lee]

If you plan on keeping the planted tank, the cleaning schedule is much different than a bare bottom. I only need to change my water about 20% once a week. The plants take care of the rest. Keep in mind that it is a heavily stocked planted tank (or was since I'm in the middle of a rescape). Growing out juvies is a hassle in a planted tank because of all the food that gets left over that the discus don't eat. I've had success, only because I was careful to make sure that the excessive feedings didn't mess up the water. Worms were always fed through a worm cone, which meant none ever made it to the bottom. I also had a crew of cory cats to eat the leftover pellets and beefheart that made it to the bottom that were never eaten. My discus grew, but really slow.

Going BB to grow juvies is easier because you can feed and feed and feed and clean it right after. Next time I need to grow out juvs I will go BB.

Also, do you absolutely need the RO/DI unit? Unless your tap water is really bad, it might be easier to just set aside a large bin of water with a powerhead to aerate it.

[sleonard]

Yep, tap water here. Aged and heated for 24 hours in a 44 gal. Rubbermaid Brute. If you stick around here and read some older posts and the stickies you will find several Discus keeping rules that are just myths. One of them is low Ph, soft water. Luckily for me, I found out before I went and spent $$ on an RO unit. Far, far more important is water stability and freshness.

When you mess with water chemistry you mess with stability and end up losing very expensive fish. Much better to acclimate them to your tap water and do large changes every day. There are many members here raising Discus in water of Ph 8 or higher, mine is stable at about 7.65 with TDS of 350-400 ppm.

Oh, go bare bottom until they are adults and then put them in a decorated/planted tank. Two main reasons, cleaning ability and general tank cleanliness. Even the small amount of food and waste that stays in the gravel reduces water quality and could affect the growth of your fish and it is much easier to clean a barebottom.

[Planted]

HEHE...if you think low pH and soft water is a myth then its OK for me to think the planted tank/intense lighting thing is a myth. ;)

I use planted tanks because of the "help" the plants give. I am a huge bio filter freak thats why I purchased the Eheim wet/dry. Bio filters typically arent the greatest mechanical filters so I use the diatom filter during maintenance. Planted tanks need bio filters? Probably not...I just always choose the bio oriented filters.

My discus are growing quickly. Not as quickly as the apistos but even I have noticed the size increase already...I see them everyday. When my friends come over they tell me how much bigger they all got.

One thing I have taken to is providing the correct habitat for the fish I keep. IE soft acidic water for new world and hard alkaline for africans....as an example. I realize these arent wild creatures and are tank bred for us but I at least try to recreate the natural habitat. :angel:

[MayorNewton]

I would tend to agree with the 'bare bottom' route for discus...IF discus were the 'end-all' reason for having a tank. That is most probably the case for many members here on 'SimplyDiscus,' but not for all those in the aquarium hobby.

I have one tank right now, and will most likely have just the one for a while. The purpose of my tank is a 'show piece' in my living room...something that I will enjoy looking at and showing off to my few guests. I have opted for a planted tank as they are a hell of a lot nicer looking that a bare bottomed one, and have chosen discus to keep in it as they are probably my favorite fish. To me, there is little more relaxing than watching a 'school' of discus floating through the green of a densely planted tank...that is the 'reason' for my setup.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that strictly 'for the discus' speaking, a bare bottom tank is easier and encourages better growth...no dispute about that. It's just that you have to balance what you want in an aquarium and make a planted tank work for the fish you keep in it. I can accept that my fish won't grow as big as fast while I'm enjoying them the way I have them.

On the subject of soft/acid water...I can understand that today's discus can be and are kept in 'normal' water parameters, but I can't buy that it isn't 'better' for them to have water that is patterned after where they originated...as long as this can be done in a stable manner.

Newt

[MayorNewton]

Hey, 'Planted,' looks like you got a lot of the same things as me...I got my CO2 setup from AquariumPlant.com, and your RO/DI filter is exactly the same as mine...eBay?

What I did with my RO unit is removed the medium from the DI part, and I get water with a TDS of 17. Ya gotta have some in it. I add tap water now and then to keep my TDS meter reading at about 100.

Just some thoughts.

Newt

[Alight]

OK, I think you've noticed a little of why bare bottom tanks are recommended, but watch more carefully and you will see more. Discus like to "graze" their food from the bottom of the tank to really "fill up" on food.
They'll hit the sinking and floating food all right, but they often spit it out and take it in several times, only swallowing it after it hits bottom. They also like to eat slowly. Eat a few bites, then take a break, eat a few bits, etc.

For some reason, as they make the transition from Juvies to adults, they tend to get more picky about food, and like to really take their time more when eating. Maybe this is protection agains bloat, who knows, but they don't puff out their sides anymore when they eat, but will spend an hour eating about the same amount they used to eat in 5 minutes. They seem more shy about eating at this age, too, which may be what your fish are going through now.

Of course, this could also be a sign of disease, so keep a close eye on them.


Anyway, it's these eating habits that make the bare bottom tank beneficial for full growth potential in discus. You can do it with gravel on the bottom, but you have to really overfeed, and gravel vac lots of spit out food that gets into the gravel where the fish can't find it any more to make sure the fish get their full growth.

As for your water, why not mix your tap water with your RO water to get the desired TDS. As it turns out, Juvies actually grow better in slightly harder water than you have now. 110 ppm Ca++ which, I think is about 220 ppm TDS works pretty well. If you mix, depending on the hardness of your tap water, you could get twice or more of the water for your tank changes. It will save on the reconstituting chemicals!!

As to your RO unit, you should be getting more output. What water pressure do you have? Is it very cold water? What prefilters do you have? Is the flow restrictor on your unit rated for 100 gallons/day?

Welcome to Simply!!

Al Light

[Planted]

Yep ebay! I got three of them from there they are awesome.
The regulator is awesome. I am prolly going to purchase one off Rex for my second tank just to try some other quality products.
My water is really cold. Pressure I assume is average-high..city water. I get 1 gallon in 25 minutes sorry if that conflicts with what I said before. I have investigated using hot water mixing valve but I have an older water heater and prefer something different. I have been thinking about a snake coil of tubing in hot water or some sort of alternative instant heater for more output.

I just purchased a 29 gallon tank and four sponge filters. I have to be honest and say I do plan on keeping the new 29 bare. I dont argue the point.

I use additives like RO right. I start with deionized water it is 0ppm.

Thanks for welcoming me and thanks again for the comments on the website.:D Now about those four blue discus...LOL...when the heck are they going to liven up? Do they need more friends? How many adults in 90 gallon I think 9 would be typical and 12 would be packed...is that correct?

[Planted]

Hi, I use all ro water for the reason I got it in the first place. Remove chlorine and/or chloramine and other nasties. I dont like the aging idea because it requires alot of holding space and those other nasties. I can produce water whenever I want and its always consistant. The whole soft water and apisto thing came about then I desired another tank mate for my apistos...discus works perfect.

The red turqs eat out of my hand. I feed each of them with my finger tips. If something sinks to the bottom the apistos and discus will attack it like a pack of wolves. Its soo great. Then there is live brine....OMG what fun. I soak my brine in vitamin additive stuff.

The blues on the other hand.... I clean the tank alot because of the less aggressive nature during eating. Most of them eat aggresively and two of them will dare to come near me. But they instantly retreat to hiding if something sudden occurs.

Thank you for welcoming me.

[Dood Lee]

Even the small amount of food and waste that stays in the gravel reduces water quality and could affect the growth of your fish and it is much easier to clean a barebottom.

This isn't always the case. In my tank, the water params stay perfect, even though I don't ever clean the gravel. Any detritus or uneaten food that sinks into the gravel stays in the gravel. My water has never had a foul smell, and my fish have never been sick. You have to remember that plants take in ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate for food. If your tank is reasonably stocked with plants, waste becomes less of a problem than it is in BB tanks.

[Planted]

I am beggining to think everyone changes their water soo much (volume) because there is nothing in the tank and the water skunks quickly. I vac my gravel often, thats my water change, I fill up what was sucked out. :angel:

[Dissident]

As far as growing out in planted tanks vs BB.
I got 6 SnakeSkins back in jan 1-2" and now they are huge (except one) They all have very nice shape and eyes are all proportinate to the body. Never been sick, all are very happy and none are shy.

As far as WC goes i do 2x50% weekly and the occasional 30% in there as well. Typically 2-4 WC a week. But I have had a few lazy sperts in there with 1 50% WC a week, but not for multiple weeks in a row. I hardly ever clean the gravel since I do have carpet plants I can't but extra water movement and extra filtration has to help.

BB would be easier that is for sure, but not 'the rule'. My next setup will be 2x45gal for growing out 10-12 juvies and see how that experience is.

[marilyn1998]

Willie from DiscusKC told me that in the 90 (unplanted and BB) you can put 14-16 juvies or 10-12 adults. Just make sure your WC and feeding is good! I have 12 in mine and it is great.

[Planted]

Cool. I will probably add six more. I want to collect two more strains and I will be done...I think. I will have some other big tanks in case of problems. So eventually 24 discus in 90, 75, 65 & 29 gallon tanks. A spare 75 will be around but primarily Apistogramma community. All tanks have same water parameters. This is all thoughts tho...not real. To do that I would have to change a tanks water in the morning and one at night and utilize the RO/DI 100%.

Can you believe it? This Eheim has been here all day and I didnt set it up. I had lots of other stuff I had to get going.

How long should I run this thing for before I remove the other filters? I have to purchase a new desk to fit my new tanks in my so-called-computer-room. So it will take about a week or more before I have any reason to move them. Is that long enough for this new filter to establish?