not fattening up

[JimmyB]

I have a young fish, overall diameter with fins maybe about 3" or 3.5". It is a red mellon. I have it in a "grow-out tank", I keep the water clean, I vacuum the bare-bottom every day, and I change the filter regularly. I have been feeding this fish (and a couple others in the tank) live black worms, frozen Hikari bloodworms, and a flake food for Angels and Discus. They get these meals 3-4 times a day, since I work and can't feed during the middle of the day. So, about 7:30 Am, then again at about 4:30 PM, 7:30, and about 11:00 PM. I also feed some frozen beefheart about 3 times a week. So over about 5 weeks, I have not seen this thing grow, in fact it almost looks emaciated (maybe thats an exageration!), but it's belly seems concave to me. The other fish seem to be growing and thriving and thickening out, but this one particular fish eats along with the rest of them and gets its share, but doesn't seem to put on any thickness. If I put a water current in the tank, it would probably get swept away. As far as color goes, it is not washed out or sickly colored, and there is no sign of hexamita, darkness, or any sickness at all. Any sugggestions?

[Alight]

I'd try treating for tapeworms (Prazi) and nematodes (Levamisole or fenbendazole). Tapeworms can keep young fish from growing the way the should, but not make them overtly sick.

[JimmyB]

What would be the other clues that tapeworm might be the problem, besides the fish not growly? Any other symptoms?

[Tony_S]

besides the fish not growly? Any other symptoms?

Usually, no. You may see a dead worm hanging from the fish's anus, or a dead worm on the bottom of the tank....but other 'visual' symptoms arent normally seen.

In most cases, people arent even aware thier discus are infested untill a 'precautionary' or 'profilactic' treatment is given, and dead worms are discovered shortly after....but this is rare IME and from observations made on this and other forums.

Tapeworms are rarely a problem in domestic discus IMO. But....with that said, Prazi is very mild on discus and easy to use. It wont hurt anything to give it a try...but dont be suprised if you see nothing after treatment.

I would lean towards treatment for Nematodes (Roundworms) myself.

Tony

ps.....Im assuming this fish is the same type/strain and age as the discus that ARE growing?

[Alight]

Tony, from what I've read on this site Tapeworms being expelled after treatment when no other symptoms are seen before treatment is not that rare. I'd guess it's at least 30% and maybe as much as 50% of the time. As to whether they cause problems, Dick Au, a long time breeder, has had good breeders that he didn't know had tapeworms until he treated. After treatment, these fish gained weight and size, even as adults.

I had a fish that had all the symptoms describe by Jimmy B. After treatment, this fish grew to be the largest fish in the tank. One word of warming, though. These fish are not used to being able to consume large quantities of food, so if you see tapeworm expelled, watch carefully for a few weeks after treatment and have epsom salts ready, as these fish are prone to bloat, since they are now able to gorge.

I also agree with doing a nematode treatment as well. Nematodes can also affect one fish more than others and be a problem when no other symptoms are observed.

[JimmyB]

I noticed today that what I though might be an uneaten bloodworm, was actually a clear hollow type of feces string. Only about 1 cm, or 1/2 inch, but not typical of other fish I have. And No, the other fish that are growing are different discus, not the same.

[Tony_S]

Tony, from what I've read on this site Tapeworms being expelled after treatment when no other symptoms are seen before treatment is not that rare. I'd guess it's at least 30% and maybe as much as 50% of the time

So what your saying....is that if we picked 100 discus at random(that had never been treated) from Simply members, and dosed them all....anywhere from 30 to 50 would expell tapeworms??!!

With all due respect...No way....Id be suprised to see 5%

Show me the #'s and I'll be a believer.

Tony

[ShinShin]

I would definately not treat for tapeworms here. That is not the problem, IMO. Tapeworms will not cause a discus to have a concave stomach and appear emaciated. Tapeworms will only live in an otherwise healthy discus, and will leave a sickly fish. Lack of growth and sometimes a bloated appearance are the main symptoms of tapeworms, and sometimes the bloated stomach is not there. I would suspect nematodes and treat accordingly.

Mat

[Alight]

Matt, with all due respect, all of my fish had tapeworms when I treated them last year. None of them looked bloated. Some had concave stomachs. After the treatment expelled all of the tapeworms, none had concave stomachs.

These fish were, otherwise healthy. The seemed to have good appetites, just weren't growing as fast as I thought they should. After the treatment, they grew like crazy.

The same thing happened to me more than once in the past, too. I just didn't expect tapeworms in Discus these days, this time around, since they are fairly easy to get rid of.

As you say, nematodes could be the problem here. I wouldn't count it out. But, I'd great with Prazi anyway. It's not very expensive, and will do no harm if they don't have tapewor, I would also treat for nematodes as well.

Tony, it obviously depends on the source of the fish. If the fish are from simplydiscus sponsors, 5% would be about right. Also, most of the people on the site have already treated for tapeworm, so you wouldn't see any tapeworms in those either. If we took a random sample of people who got their fish from people not sponsors of SimplyDiscus, and who have not treated for tapeworm, I'd say my 30 - 50% number is about right.

[ShinShin]

Al,

Were the fish treated for nematodes as well? Emaciation and concave stomachs are just not typical tapeworm infestation symptoms. The bloated look only appears when the tapeworm population multiplies out of control.

I treated 25 discus I received from the now defunct A Discus Dream some years back and 24 had been infected with tapeworms. All appeared healthy, just slow growers. They, too, put on a growth spurt after treatment. They were also imported discus. He did however feed CBW's. Every breeder (and I mean every breeder) that I have purchased discus from that fed CBW's had tapeworms. Now, I don't mean every discus, but I got tapeworm infested fish from them all.

Mat

[Alight]

I always treat for nematodes after I treat for tapeworms. I always suspect that if a fish has tapeworm, it also has nematodes, and that removal of the tapeworm may open the door for an increase in infestation immediately after removal, due to necrotic tapeworm within the gut, and sudden change in the bowel due to the volume change.

I'm now in a habit of treating all new fish for tapeworms and nematodes, regardless of the species while they are in quarantine, just to make sure I don't spread them to my show tank fish. I'm most afraid of camallanus, another really aggresive nematode that can really cause problems.

It's interesting that the best procedure for eliminating the transfer of fish tapeworm i food is to freeze it. Fish tapeworms and their eggs, cannot tolerate even a relatively short time at freezing.

I have wondered if this is Hikari's "biopure" method. It is one of the reasons I do not feed live food, except home hatched baby brine shrimp, to any of my discus.

I don't think that CBW always means that fish get tapeworms. I think Marie, for example, and others who post on this site, feed CBW all the time, and have treated for tapeworm, and saw none. It may depend on the source of the CBW.

[ShinShin]

Well, I know where he (A Discus Dream) got his - the "safe" place. ;)

I have viewed fecal samples of discus I have had over the years. I found no evidence that tapeworms and nemotodes have relationship to each other in an infestaion of the other. Actually, I have never seen an infestation of both in any sample I looked at under the 'scope. This doesn't mean that it doesn't happen on occasion.

I have often wondered about the three step sterilization process Hikari uses. I suspected that flash freezing was one step. I also thought that irradiation was another. Perhaps a chemical process is also used, like potassium permanganate. They use PP in Asia alot to sterilize food products because of the fertilazation methods used in agriculture.

Thanks for posting your ideas.

Mat

[candyl70]

Jimmy,

When I feed BW I will see the type of feces that you are describing. It is the shell of the bloodworm, or the casing. Nothing to worry about. :D


Candy

[JimmyB]

I wonder if the discus prefer bloodworms with a "snap" to the bite, kinda like a good hot dog with that "Snap" casing when you bite it? Hmmmm....deep thoughts by Jack Handy.......