Discus sick or parasites or ? Help!

[poconogal]

Hello. I'm new to this forum and would like to say hi and thanks in advance for any help.

I ordered and received, 3 1/2 weeks ago, 4 Discus, two 4 inch and two 2 inch, from an online breeder who I will never do business with again. The Discus arrived unexpectedly and in cold water, fully awake and panicked. One of the 2 inch Discus immediately took sick and died. The other arrived (my Red Melon) completely on its side, still swims in the 11 o'clock position, but is eating well and seems to be thriving, and is very tenacious. It does seem to be a little strange though in that it seems oblivious to things and to me when I approach the tank. Three of the Discus were flashing and breathing heavily, with one, a Golden Dragon, breathing with one gill only. I treated with Prazi Pro and that seems to be okay now. My main problems now though are the following: Both of my 4 inch Discus are now extremely skittish and actually completely terrified, of anyone they see. The first few days after arrival, they started to come to the front glass to greet me, but as soon as feeding time came, signaled by my shutting off the filter, they swam behind the plants. Now, at feeding time, as I slowly approach the tank, they both rush for cover into the corner behind the plants. They do eat VERY WELL while hiding in the corner. One of them, supposedly a Blue Diamond, has been a medium to very dark blue since he arrived, with brown eyes. He sometimes lightenes up a bit, and then shows some red in the eyes. I think he's showing dark coloration, but I don't know what color he was when he was shipped, so I am not sure of how severe the dark coloration is. If he does come out to eat and pick food from the surface of the water, each time he tries to grab the food he freaks and darts behind the plants again. The Golden Dragon has been very very shy since day 1, but will come out with the Blue Diamond (they seem to be best buddies and swim around as one). One evening after they were fed, I went out and arrived back home about 2 hours later. When the fish were fed, all was fine. 2 hours later, the Blue Diamond had scalloped pieces of tail fin missing. That did heal up quickly. Yesterday, he had two opaque looking spots, one on tail fin, the at the end of the dorsal fin. No sign of frayed or rotting fins, though. And he ate greedily, from the corner behind a plant! I just don't know what's up with these fish. I've kept Discus before, with no problems whatsoever, but these fish are like nothing I've every experienced. Is the BD sick? Not sick, but parasites? Crazy? As far as their being afraid, I know Discus can sometimes take quite awhile to settle in, but I would think that after 3 1/2 weeks they'd be a little better, and not be going in the opposite direction. This is now making me crazy! Do I treat the Blue Diamond for anything? For what????????? Perhaps they're just badly bred fish??

Tank: 45 gallon
Tankmates: Dozen 1 inch Cardinal Tetras, 2 small cory cats
Temp: 83-84
Ammonia, Nitrite: Both 0, Nitrates 5 ppm after water change, 10 ppm before water change
PH: 7.4, KH 4 dkh, GH 5 dgh
Filtration: Aquaclear 500, with lots of bio media and I filter thru 1/3 cup of Peat to keep PH at 7.4

Weekly water changes approx. 40% with aged, heated tap water filtered thru Peat to reduce PH from 8.2 to 7.4. Water very closely matches the tank's water in PH, temp, KH and GH.

Tap water: PH 8.2, 8.8 after 24 hrs. for some reason, even though water is soft, KH 5 dkh, GH 7 dgh.

I was using a DI filter, but the fish seemed sensitive to the chems needed to set PH, and the chems (Seachem's Non-Phosphate Acid and Alkaline Buffers were not holding the PH anway, it kept shooting up even with DI water).

Sorry for the length of this post, but I wanted to get it all in. Again, thank you.

[pcsb23]

Its difficult to be specific here even with such a full post. Firstly it does sound as though you may have got some poor quality fish, either way their packing and delivery seem inadequate.

I would not ***** foot around the tank, go about it normally, they must adapt to you, not you to them. It sounds as though you put them straight into this tank without a QT period?? This can be risky at best. As this is planted you may have to make some tricky decisions, medicating a planted tank is not usually as effective as a BB tank.

It is possible that they have nematodes or some other internal parasite, how long did you use the prazi pro for?

In the short term I would up the w/c to 3x a week at 33-50% each time. I would also try and stabilise the change water and maybe do away with the peat, even with your high ph.

I think part of it could be them adjusting, it also may be a water quality issue, and they could also have some sort of infection.

I would first deal with the water quality and see how it goes from there, ideally these fish should be in a QT or hospital tank, if you can I would put them in one.

BTW I'm forgetting my manners :D welcome to Simply!

[poconogal]

Hello Paul. Yes, packaging and delivery from the online breeder was terrible. I expected to have problems with the fish, and its no surprise that I am having some. Breeder did refund 50%, but it still doesn't make up for this headache or the poor Discus being sick. No, I did not use QT tank, as there are no other Discus in my main tank. The cardinals and cories had been in the tank for at least 3 months prior to Discus arrival and had been and are still thriving, with no sign of any illness or parasites. They had also been in LFS for at least a month, as they QT for several weeks before they will sell any fish. You mention stabilizing change water. I don't understand what you mean, as change water matches, almost exactly, the tank water, except for PH, which could be .1 different. Re Peat filtration - this problem started prior to Peat usage. It started when I was using DI water. His color has actually gotten a bit lighter after I did WC with peat filtered water. I would love to do away with Peat filtration, but what about my PH after 24 hours? It rises up to about 8.8-8.9, even though I have soft water. Wouldn't 8.8 be too high for the fish? I have come to the conclusion that something other than calcium carbonate is buffering my water, but what, I have yet to find out. Prazi Pro treatment was as directed on bottle, I think it was for 7 days. I think I will put the Blue Diamond into a 10 gal hospital tank and perhaps trying Maracyn and Maracyn 2 in case its a bacterial thing. If that does not work I do have Metro food and powder. (He currently won't eat Metro food though). Or would it be better to use salt and raise the temp? If salt, how much?
Thanks, Connie

[pcsb23]

Connie,

Not meaning to lecture but all fish should be qt'd! (ok lecture over :D)

Your water is probably being buffered with magnesium carbonate at a guess. 8.8 isn't great for discus thats for sure, better suited to african lake malawi cichlids!

A 0.1 difference in ph is nothing to worry about. My concern with using peat is that it is difficult to control, and therefore keep the water stable. If you can keep it stable with very little fluctuation over time then using it is no probs. Using a stronger acid like HCL (hydrochloric or muriatic) in a water barrel gives better results in my opinion.

At this stage it is difficult to determine if it is bacterial or parasite based, they have similar symptoms. I would be tempted to go for parasite first and use something like flubenol, but Levamisole, Piperzine or panacur (in food) all work. I have used flubenol and panacur successfully before.

Before treating though I would just try upping the water change frequency, in the QT tank, for a week and see how it does. If it starts to get worse then treatment will be needed but lots of good clean water has fixed a lot of probs in the past.

hth,

[poconogal]

Hello Paul. I agree 100% about QT. That is why I am so angry with the place fish were purchased from. I received fish on a Saturday one week prior to the date I was expecting them. Breeder was told many times that I was not available to receive them but shipped anyway. They arrived in a late season snow storm. Luckily I was still at home or they would have frozen to death at the front door. I had planned on setting up two 10 gal. tanks for QT and also utilizing the time to thoroughly clean main tank, water changes etc. When they arrived in 70 degree water, all panicked, one in the horizontal position, all I could think to do was to get them into warmer water ASAP, no time to clean and set up QT tanks. Took time to acclimate them, but I was not prepared to receive these fish on that day. I have a clue as to what the problem is. Last nite, I saw two tiny holes had appeared above the eye and I did notice when the Blue Diamond was delivered that it had what appeared to be little circular scars from behind the eye up towards dorsal fin on both sides. At the time I theorized that he had Hole in the Head at one time and these were healed holes. A pic on this forum site for that shows exactly the same holes as the BD's "scars" all in a curved line. Since he's been dark from delivery, I believe he was sick prior to or from their shipping. Luckily he still has a great appetite.

PH has been stable using Peat, with minimal fluctuation. I have PH monitor and PH ranges from 7.45 to about 7.50, usually between morning and nite when it does fluctuate, but it does hold steady at one reading for days at a time. With monitor I will see when it begins to rise signaling need for fresh Peat and I know exactly how much to put in filter. You are the ONLY person to have any idea as to what else may be buffering my water. Whatever it is does not show up with normal KH test kit and is not removed by my DI filter. Everything I tried just in my change water barrel did not work, including buffers, since when the water was placed into the main tank, over the course of the next 24 hours, my PH shot up several points, i.e., from 6.8 to 7.6 (before Discus were in tank). I am in the process of having water analyzed.

Do you think I should move his buddy over into the hospital tank also on the theory that if BD has this, his good buddy most probably does too? His buddy will eat the Metro food, even though he will not (they are inseparable -seem like a romantic pair).

Thank you Paul for your help.

[pcsb23]

It sounds like hith. Metro is a good treatemnt, particularly in food if you van get them to take it, if not dose in the water. Up the temps to 92f as well for minimum 10 days, should only need to treat for 3 or 4 days. I would treat all the discus.


hth,

[poconogal]

It sounds like hith. Metro is a good treatemnt, particularly in food if you van get them to take it, if not dose in the water. Up the temps to 92f as well for minimum 10 days, should only need to treat for 3 or 4 days. I would treat all the discus.


hth,
I will treat them per your instruction. I'm sure they will be well again. Again, thanks!

[poconogal]

It sounds like hith. Metro is a good treatemnt, particularly in food if you van get them to take it, if not dose in the water. Up the temps to 92f as well for minimum 10 days, should only need to treat for 3 or 4 days. I would treat all the discus.


hth,
Hello Paul. Just posting a follow up. A short time after I first posted about my BD, he decided to come out and start eating other foods. I began feeding Omega One Flake for Stressed Fish. Within a few days the 2 holes that had appeared were gone. Both Discus have come out to eat since then, and they both now eat everything and anything. They even try to eat my test tubes and they are no longer hiding. I also purchased a few weeks ago 3 more Discus which I have just added to my tank and all are doing well.

Connie

[pcsb23]

Glad its worked out.