Alights Algae adventure

[Alight]

OK, thought I'd post a running "journal" , hopefully as a guide, not a discouragement to those who try to battle hair/thread algae in a high-tech, high light tank. I'm starting today, to use a controlled fertilization scheme as suggested by Dissident and Tom Barr to eventually eliminate a severe algae problem.

The starting specs:

55 gallon tank,

lighting : 238 total watts = 4.3 watts/gallon
(110 watts of PC lights with units for AH Hobby supply (back of tank)+ 2 ODNO 48" T-8 in a shoplight fixture (~ 128 watt equivalent) (front of tank)).
Lights on 10 hours a day. 5 hours starting at 7:30 am, two hours off, then on from 2:30 til 7:30. I will probably adjust this so the lights can be on more in the evening when we actually look at the tank more.

pressurized CO2, pinpoint controller set at pH 6.2 = ~30 ppm CO2.
KH 30+ ppm, GH 5-6.
The GH is approximately 7 to 1 Calcium to Magnesium.

Tank temp 84 F.

Plants: H. Corumbosa, Amazon Swords, Aponotegens, R. Macranda, Magenta, H. Difformis, polysperma, Cabomba, java ferns, crypt Wendti, --maybe others, I forget all that's in there when I can't see the tank. Heavily planted, with emphasis on medium to fast growers.

Live stock:Usually- 6 adult Discus (6-7 inches each), 3 BN plecos, (1 large, two medium ) 10 cardinal tetras (large), 2+? (hard to see) angelicus loaches (3.5 inches) 2 SAEs (large, lazy, fat), 2 otos ( I have a bunch of these in my grow out tank that I may put in the big tank when they get larger). Also, temporarily 3 - 2 inch clown loaches--will be removed when they get larger--there for temporary snail reduction.

Root feeding of all root feeders with Seachem tabs, at about 1/3 more than recommended rate (these are pretty aggressive and large root feeders!).

Fert dosing: (ferts from Greg Watson)
1: (65%) Large WC- dose Macros to target
2: trace (flourish) 5-10 ml
3: nothing
4: (25%) WC- dose Macros to target
5: trace
6: (25%) WC- dose Macros to target
7: trace

No3 ~ 15ppm
Po4 ~ 1-2ppm
K ~ 20 ppm
Fe ~ .1-.2ppm

Did the massive change last night (65%), cleaned out as much algae as possible, and dosed as the Fertilator suggested.http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php which agrees totally with Chuck Gadds calculator http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

This morning (5-2-06), measured all levels and they were pretty close to the calculated values. I also, again cleaned out as much algae as possible.

NO3 - 15 ppm
PO4 1-1.5 ppm
K ~20 ppm

I then dosed the micros using Flourish at the recommended dosing. I started with 5 ml, and will go to 10 ml depending on observations.



OK, the before pictures: Left Side

[Alight]

Middle:

[Alight]

Right Side:

[pcsb23]

Al, I know what it can be like battling that bl**dy stuff. I'll be interested in how you do. I'm pretty sure you are on the right track now.

I have one question though (and it may be a dumb one but who cares...) how do you measure your potassium levels??

BTW some nice looking fish there!

[Alight]

Paul, I have a potassium test kit http://www.petsolutions.com/Potassium+Test+Kit-I-12516807-I-C-10635-C-.aspx. I didn't get it from Pet Solutions but I can't remember where I got it from. This price seems very high. I got it directly from Aquariumlandscapes.com but their price is the same. It's only accurate to 5 ppm, but, I dilute the tank water 4 times or more, to test for higher values. You can create your own standards with calibrated solutions of potassium, as well.

It was dead-on accurate with calibrated test solutions.

Al

[wolfbane]

Hey Al! Please explain what the second light is? ODNO?
I hate that algae, fighting it in my low tech tank too.

[Alight]

ODNO is a way to greatly increase the amount of light from any fluorescent bulb by overdriving it. This requires electronic ballasts.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/21257-odno-measurements-power-consumption-vs-light.html

is a long thread at the plantedtank.net on this issue.

I used two $7 shop lights from Home Depot to creat 1 ODNO unit. I used 48" T-8 bulbs in this unit used one shop light simply for its electronic ballast. I put both ballasts in one unit, and wired them together to overdrive the T-8 bulbs. This way, I get the light evuivalent to 128 watts, according to Shalu's measurements.

I have a bare bottom 55 growout tank that has potted amazon swords, red temple plants, cabomba and R. Magenta in it (all potted) in it. These are remarkably algae free because of 11 otos, and 2 BN plecos in it.

I actually take plants out of my high tech tank that have too much fuzz algae on them for me to clean off without damaging the plant, and put them in this tank for the clean up crew to clean, and then put them back in the high tech tank when all the algae is gone. These little fish do wonders.

The potted plants grow very slowly, but stay nice and green with no algae on them. I don't fertilize this tank, and I change 60 - 70% of the water daily, as this is a Juvie grow out tank.

[pcsb23]

Paul, I have a potassium test kit http://www.petsolutions.com/Potassium+Test+Kit-I-12516807-I-C-10635-C-.aspx. I didn't get it from Pet Solutions but I can't remember where I got it from. This price seems very high. I got it directly from Aquariumlandscapes.com but their price is the same. It's only accurate to 5 ppm, but, I dilute the tank water 4 times or more, to test for higher values. You can create your own standards with calibrated solutions of potassium, as well.

It was dead-on accurate with calibrated test solutions.

Al

Thanks Al.

Quick note on overdriving tubes, their effective lif is shortened by doing this so that must be taken into account. The human eye cannot always determine when the spectrum has gone, need a light meter for that. Tubes are not expensive so changing them regularly would do the trick, every 3 months for T8's.

[Alight]

Paul, yes, the T-8 bulbs I got on sale when I got the lights. I got them for $5 each, and bought extras (all 5 K lights, very similar to the quality light output from my power compacts).

There was a discussion about the life-time of fluorescent lights on the plantedtank.net site as well. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/18277-unexpected-long-bulb-life-odno.html?highlight=ODNO+life+bulbshttp://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/13049-odno-lamps-how-long-do-they.html?highlight=ODNO+life+bulbs

The consensus was that they really don't wear out as quickly as some have said. The assumption that power compacts last only 6 months was debunked, for example. I replace mine every 6 months anyway, and I believe I can see the difference in the old vs new, though.

The ODNO ers suggested that this did shorten the lifetime of the bulbs, but not that much. They suggested that they would last at least a year with 2X overdrive, perhaps as short as 3 months with 4X overdrive. I use 2X overdrive, and my light is only a couple of months old.

Al

[pcsb23]

Al I replace my T5's long before the manufacturers recommendation and I too believe I can see the difference. I think there is a difference between the tube lasting and being effective too!

I'm going to try and get a potassium kit as I think I may have a deficiency there, based on instinct more than science! Would KCl do the trick if I need to dose?

[Alight]

The fertilater as well as Chuck Gadd's calculator (see previous posts) will calculate K for several different formulations, including KCL. I used it to calculate the K from the KNO3 and KH2PO4 first, to figure out how much more KCL I would have to add.

KCl is pretty easy to get, as several salt substitutes contain 100% KCl.

K2SO4 is the other commonly used form. It provides sulfate if you think you might need that, too.

The only really obvious sign I know of that indicates K problems is if you're using CO2, and the plants stop pearling for unknown reasons (all other nutrients are high enough). Then adding K will instantly start the pearling going again. Other than that, you might see slower than expected growth, and as usual, more algae than you'd like to see.

[pcsb23]

Al,

Confirms my gut feel a bit more! Pearling recently stopped - thought the CO2 had run out but it hadn't. Growth is only ok at the moment - so far the dreaded algae is ain acceptable levels. I bookmarked that calculator! :D

Thanks.

[jastormont]

This I think will become a great thread and help many like me who at the moment has a tank that looks like yours!

[Alight]

OK, one week out, now. I just did the second large change yesterday. Whole tank photo added showing the results of a large trim.

1: (65%) Large WC- dose Macros to target
2: trace (flourish) 5-10 ml
3: nothing
4: (25%) WC- dose Macros to target
5: trace
6: (25%) WC- dose Macros to target
7: trace

No3 ~ 15ppm
Po4 ~ 1-2ppm
K ~ 20 ppm
Fe ~ .1-.2ppm
trace-flourish 8 ml + flourish Fe, 5 ml

So far, algae hasn't slowed down much. I did a large pruning with last night's big water change, and aggresively went after a bunch of heavily rooted stem plants that I had been trimming the tops off, and letting the new shoots grow from. These bottoms were very matted and impeding water flow, and the tops were growing slower and slower, and collecting more algae.

I also heavily trimmed the very large amazon sword, removing older, heavily algae contaminated leaves, and reducing the spread, to give my stem plants more room to grow.

Some interesting notes:

Nitrates are no longer increasing between water changes. I pegged them at 12 ppm last week, and they never increased at all. Possibly a slight decrease between changes. I've set them at 15 ppm for this week. New note, a day later, definitely a decrease in nitrates over night.

KH used to decrease between water changes. Now it is rising! I suspect this is because my loaches have decimated the snail population and their shells are dissolving in the more acid water created by the increased CO2 levels. KH is now the most important daily measure, as it sets the CO2 level both for measuring, and because it controls the pH which is used by my pinpoint system to control the amount of CO2 pumped into the tank.

My R. Macranda took a big hit from the very low nitrates in the tank the week before I got the new ferts and was able to increase them again. They are very sensitive to not having enough nitrates if there is high light and CO2 around, obviously. This is the first time I've seen anything affect it. The growing ends turned white, and some of the growing ends just died off entirely. Since the nitrates are back up, they are growing well again.

One other note, very low nitrates and phosphates very much INCREASED the thread and hair algae growth to almost ridiculous rates.

For those who are having trouble with Macranda, this could be the reason--they do not tolerate very low nitrates, at least at Discus tank temperatures and conditions.

[Alight]

Two weeks out.

Bottom line- still a major hair and thread algae problem. Still struggling to figure it out.

Notes below:
I backed down on my NO3 and PO4 concentrations a bit. I noticed that thread algae was going crazy, and macranda was suffering when the nitrates were at 15, much more than when at 12, so I reduced the nitrates to 10+ and phosphates to 1.2 or so. I also now add micros a few hours after adding the macros after water changes. It just seemed that micros would be low for a day after a water change, which could lead to an imbalance. This seemed to be indicated by reduced pearling after a water change, and a big bloom of algae each day after adding micros. With the addition on the same day, the algae growth rate seems lower.

The macranda "hit" may not have been because of the very low nitrates, like I thought at first, but because of high nitrates. Another possibility is that I trimmed the macranda just before I started the higher nitrates, taking off the tops and planting them, rather than the rooted stems like I have in the past. It's possible the macranda needs those roots to keep growing. What happened is that the growing tips of the shoots died off, turning white and dissentegrating. The seem to be recovering now. So it may not have been the high nitrates that were the problem.

Thread and hair algae continues to be a problem. I've taken to "cleaning" the plants by uprooting a couple of bunches, putting weights on them and putting them in my grow out tank that has a bunch of otos in it. After a couple of days, all of the hair algae is gone, the thread algae is also gone, and I put the plants back in the planted tank.

This has me planning to add about 15 otos to my planted tank. I know algae is supposed to be controlled by the ferts, not by the algae eaters, but so far, ferts alone only seems to be only erratic in slowing down the thread algae growth. It definitely hasn't stopped the stuff.

Today, I reduced my lighting by taking out one of the ODNO bulbs, so that now my total light is the equivalent of about 3.2 watts per gallon.

I also replaced the electrode on my SMS pH controller, since I knew the calibration in the necessary range (6.0 - 6.8) was wrong with my last electrode. This was especially bad because calibration at 7.0 and 4.0 were correct, so it was difficult to tell what was going on.
It was initially correct, but I think the electrode got contaminated by organics and algae because it was above the water level for water changes. This caused stuff to dry on to the electrode during water changes. I put a new electrode on, and it calibrates just where it should in the necessary range. I'm cleaning the old one with acid to see if it bounces back. The out of calibration did not affect my CO2 level, as I figured it out with both colorometric tests and a handheld meter which showed the thing was off. I then calibrated to 6.2 (the cut off range for 35 ppm CO2 with my kH) so I know the unit was keeping the CO2 in the good range--I checked this to be sure each day with external pH testing.

Scolley over at the plantedtank.net http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/19984-scolleys-75g-big-clear-kahuna-56k-69.htmlseems to be making better progress with his hair/thread algae problem than I am. Interestingly, he is at the same nitrate and PO4 levels I am at right now. I believe he thinks these levels are so low he is starving his algae. I don't believe this is the case, though, since my algae problem started with macros at this level.

[diablocanine]

Lights on 10 hours a day. 5 hours starting at 7:30 am, two hours off, then on from 2:30 til 7:30. I will probably adjust this so the lights can be on more in the evening when we actually look at the tank more.

Have you adjusted your lighting schedule? Seems to me you are turning the lights off when the plants are in peak photosynthesis, did I read that right?. A suggestion, set lights on 0800 off 2000, will give plants 12 hours of uninterrupted light and offer viewing opportunities at night. Have you considered overdosing excel to stunt the algae? Has worked for me (I dosed 3x daily for 10 days). A word of caution if you try this, make sure you are religious in dosing schedule and amounts......DC

[Alight]

I changed the light timing before I started the fertilizer dosing and water change schedule. I based it on how long it took for pearling to start and for when I wanted to see the fish.

I am doing 8 am to 2 pm on, then off and on again from 5 pm til 10 pm. This gives me 11 hours of light. Since the light level was so high, I'm hesitating going longer, and was thinking about cutting back to 10 hours. Because I just cut out a bulb, I was going to leave it at the 11 hour schedule for a while before I changed the lighting time, to see what effect just taking down the wattage had a bit before I change anything else.

I'm trying to be systematic in any change I do, and give it a least a week, if not two weeks to be sure of what the final effect will be before I make any other changes.

I tried the excel overdose thing a few months ago. I was very careful with the dosing schedule and amounts. It worked great for the BBA, but seemed to increase the thread/hair algae, and my discus seemed affected by the excel--off their food, not spawning regularly, like they had before, etc. Others have had luck with excel for thread/hair algae but many have not. I suspect it has to do with how much CO2 they have going. If not enough, it helps, but if CO2 is already more than adequate, it doesn't do much.

[diablocanine]

So you believe it is okay to gap the light schedule? Just wondering if that contributes to the algae getting the upper hand. Would be a good question for a Botanist......DC


I changed the light timing before I started the fertilizer dosing and water change schedule. I based it on how long it took for pearling to start and for when I wanted to see the fish.

I am doing 8 am to 2 pm on, then off and on again from 5 pm til 10 pm. This gives me 11 hours of light. Since the light level was so high, I'm hesitating going longer, and was thinking about cutting back to 10 hours. Because I just cut out a bulb, I was going to leave it at the 11 hour schedule for a while before I changed the lighting time, to see what effect just taking down the wattage had a bit before I change anything else.

I'm trying to be systematic in any change I do, and give it a least a week, if not two weeks to be sure of what the final effect will be before I make any other changes.

I tried the excel overdose thing a few months ago. I was very careful with the dosing schedule and amounts. It worked great for the BBA, but seemed to increase the thread/hair algae, and my discus seemed affected by the excel--off their food, not spawning regularly, like they had before, etc. Others have had luck with excel for thread/hair algae but many have not. I suspect it has to do with how much CO2 they have going. If not enough, it helps, but if CO2 is already more than adequate, it doesn't do much.

[Kindredspirit]

Gosh Al ~ I hope you get your algae prob in check! Your tank is beautiful!!! I was just cruisin around and saw this thread ~ I didnt read all of this as I must go ~

You always take the time to help me and others....sorry I cannot help here~



Just wanted you to know you are appreciated!


M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[pcsb23]

So you believe it is okay to gap the light schedule? Just wondering if that contributes to the algae getting the upper hand. Would be a good question for a Botanist......DC

DC/Al, I have been trying a broken light schedule, its been in operation for about a month now, but my CO2 has ru out and I'm STILL waiting for the replacement :( so its difficult to tell for sure. I have read conflicting opinions about it but a friend said its worth a go, there are some who believe it interrupts the algaes 'cycle' something to do with taking 4 or 5 hours to start processing nutrients. He does it on his tank and it seems to work but.... Again it could be one of those myths too! I'd like to know for certain though.

[Alight]

My, THAT was interesting! OK, so in one of the posts above, I indicated that I turned off one of my overdriven bulbs, so that I reduced the lighting by about 60 some watts.

The algae growth did slow down, and so did the pearling of the plants, BUT the NITRATES shot up like crazy! They had been going down between water changes, but in less than two days, they shot up 7-8 ppm. The phosphates also went up about the same %. I had to throw in an extra water change this morning to keep things in balance.

I'm guessing this means that the algae was a major factor in reducing nitrates. Guess all that algae I was picking out of the tank was my nitrates in a different form. Of course, the plant growth has slowed down as well so that is probably also part of the nitrate thing. I'm hoping that things adapt and that the plant growth goes back up, and nitrates start going down again. I'll give the reduced light a chance.

Paul and Debbie, I actually started the broken lighting schedule back when the tank was low tech, and I had an algae problem. It was suggested as a possible aid, and it worked. I never adapted it after I went to high tech, high light, so it may be time to try another routine. It could be that with enough CO2 and other nutrients, the broken schedule does not work, and may actually be a negative factor in the algae-plant equation.

Thanks, Marie. Seems like the only way I learn is to do everything wrong, at least once. That's why I can help others who are struggling. Only took me 40 years to learn anything--and I'm still learning (meaning doing everything wrong at least once)!

Hope this thread helps others as they try to go from low tech planted Discus tank to high tec.

Al

[pcsb23]

Al,

I would suspect that the reduced growth in your plants would have a bigger influence on the reduced uptake of Nitrates. I'm not saying that the algae doesn't use some, just think the plants use it quicker and more efficiently when micros, CO2 and light are there in abundance. Same applies to phosphates too.

I've always used an unbroken photoperiod up until now, have had (and its beginning to come back - no CO2 still when I got home:mad: )a bit of an algae battle recently too, hence the change in photo period. Not convinced yet.

[Alight]

OK, the weekly update: The First Part is the BAD NEWS, the second part maybe GOOD NEWS.


THE BAD
Knocking the light down by taking down 60 watts of light didn't help anything. Algae growth was about the same--still pretty aggresive stuff. I went a couple of days without pulling algae twice a day, and everything was pretty much covered. Had to pull a bunch of plants, and put them in my grow out tank for the otos and plecos to clean.

So, three weeks with the dosing schedule didn't help.

The GOOD NEWS
I've been following some thread at the plantedtank.net on thread algae, and have decided on the following.

Decrease nitrates to 10 ppm
Decrease phosphates to 0.5 ppm
Keep K at 15 - 20 ppm
Keep CO2 and 30-40 ppm
I'm suspending micro addition for a few days--this is partly because I very recently (2 weeks ago) replaced all of the seachem root tabs under my plants, and suspect that micros may be getting into the water column from these. If the macranda red color starts to fade, I'll go back to micro dosing.

The big change is that I'm going down to 110 total watts of light for now. This is 2 watts/gallon. I will give a burst with the added 128 watts for 30 minutes - 1 hour after 2-3 hours of lights on (good growing going on before the big burst of lights). The 110 lights are now on for only 8 hours a day (11 hours of 238 watts before). The plan is to ease back into high light, more ferts, once thread/hair algae is under control.

I came on this both from the planted tank thread, and when I was responding to Marie's question about algae control under the Water Forum. I realized that my grow out tank was a pretty good place to get rid of algae, as I had been using it to get plants from the showtank clean, so I could keep them from being smothered, then put them back in the show tank. Anyway, I measured the parameters in that tank, and came up with the nitrate, phosphate, and light levels that I listed above (minus the CO2 : I don't use CO2 in the growout tank).

I've used this for two days, now, and so far, the results look pretty good. Algae growth rate is way down. On some plants algae seems to be going away! First time I've seen that.

I'm going to add a bunch more otos (only 2 in the showtank, now) when I can find some (I'll probably add 10-15) to get rid of new algae growth. I've heard that mollies eat thread algae, and even though, maybe because, they don't do well in soft water, I'm thinking of getting some to get rid of the algae. I'll take them out once the algae is under control. On the plantedtank site, a fellow algae plagued person has found that mollies do help, at least a little, and his tank also has water as soft as mine.

[lhforbes12]

Al,
Have you tried H2O2 yet? It's really not something I would normally advise, but I can see that you are careful and systematic. It worked well for me against thread algae. The other thing that has worked like a miracle for me was running a diatom filter for a day following a wc (I only do a 50% wc once a week in the planted with substrate tanks). You do need to run it for a whole day though. I got this advice from Tom Barr and like I said it really has worked like a miracle (a UV filter is also supposed to work), I no longer have have anything but some GSA that only grows on the glass and gets cleaned during a wc.

The one thing I noticed was your 15 ppm NO3 levels, my discus and Mikrogeophagus rameirzi both react badly for me when NO3 is this high (the rams lose color and the discus begin breathing rapidly) obviously yours do not. I wonder what is different? Also how are you adding Fe, is it in Flourish? (I use CSM + B from Greg Watson).

Thanks,
Larry

Larry

[Alight]

Haven't tried the peroxide yet. I'm trying to come up with a method that will work for all of those, like me, that end up with this kind of problem. I figure that if I can find a balance that fixes the problem, I can do it again, and others can follow the methods I use to solve their problems as well. The diatom or UV filter is a good idea, as one of the problems is that when I pick off the algae, small bits break off and get spread all over the tank by the filters and can re-infest plants every where. One thing I've got that helps this is fine sponge filters on all my filter intakes that stop almost all particulates before they actually get inside the filters. The down side of this is that when I pull off the sponges to clean them, bits of algae go everywhere again.

As to 15 ppm nitrates, it makes a big difference if this is fish waste NO3 or fertilizer nitrates (KNO3) you add to the tank. The fertilizer NO3 does nothing bad to the fish. Fish waste NO3 buildup is another story. If I let NO3 be 15 because of fish waste, the fish would begin to have problems. This goes back to the fact that NO3 buildup from fish waste has a bunch of other bad things going up along with it. So NO3 is only a marker for bad things, not the bad guy itself.

I've actually gone down to 10 ppm NO3 for now, not for the fish, but because it seems to be helping the algae problem. I have to add NO3 to get it up to 10 ppm after the big water change of the week.

I'm using Flourish Fe.

[pcsb23]

Al,

Interesting that you have gone to the same levels of nitrate and damn nearly phosphate that I run at. My phosphate varies depending on time of the year, as can nitrates, but they get used very quickly. I'm not convinced by the broken photo period, still trying it. My CO2 arrived - empty!! Supplier is not believing me so ... no CO2 still, the tank is begining to suffer. Starting to dose with excel. Agree about the source of NO3, from fish its all teh other DOC's that are the real nasties.

[lhforbes12]

Al,
Well... when I said 15 ppm NO3 I really should have said "I had NO3 levels of 20-25 ppm KNO3". That is probably the difference. I know for certain it was NO3 posioning because as soon as I reduced the levels all symptoms disappeared. But as I said, when I thought about it my levels were actually much higher than yours. (Never trust an old Nitrate test kit is Larry's lesson for the day LoL).
btw your plants truly are gorgeous Al, as are your fish.

Larry

I should add that I dose at 1/2 strength 6 days a week (none on wc day)
using Greg Watson's "Pre-mix" but with 2 parts KNO3 instead of 1 part
3 days a week PO4 using Fleet Enema
I also use Flourish tabs in potted plants and under Echinodorus spp.
nothing else, but all substrate bottomed tanks are CO2 injected, no bb's are.
I will probably mix my next batch of ferts at the correct rate.

[Timbo]

AL, sorry, i bring nothing to the table in your algae struggle but a compliment on your tank. gorgeous(!) and i can imagine the work and dedication that goes into it. you should be very proud

[Alight]

NO3 test kits are notoriously inaccurate. I mix up a calibration solution of 20 ppm CaNO3 (you could just use the KNO3 from Greg Watson) and dilute this to 5, 10, 15 and 20 ppm in extra tubes. I use these to calibrate my actual readings against. The tubes stay accurate for a couple of weeks (just cap them and keep them to refer you readings to), but then, the test kit itself changes calibration in less than that, especially when new, or old, so I mix up new calibrations about every week or so, depending on how often I'm testing (now every day, darn it!).

Thanks, Timbo. I hope to be able to give away more plants in the near future, when I can give away plants without the algae.

Al

[Alight]

OK, update. With the lower lighting routine, algae has changed. Now, very little hair, thread algae, but I'm getting a sort of "cloud" green algae around the leaves of the slow growing plants. My macranda has all but quite growing, and all of the other plants have slowed way down. This algae can be removed, unlike the hair algae, but it's a PITA on the smaller leaves.

I've started to pick up the bright lighting as a result going to 3, and now 5 hours a day at 4.5 watts/gallon.

Nitrates are going up fairly fast in the tank, now, instead of decreasing as they were. Now I have to do a 30% change every other day to keep the nitrates around 10 ppm, and the phosphates around 0.5-1ppm. After my weekly large change (65%) I add back nitrates and phosphates.

I've also started adding micros again, as the plants were beginning to have some deformities and lack of dark green color.

So, still problems with algae. Hopefully, this algae will be palatable to otos, as I just added 5 more otos to the tank. I have 14 more in quarantine, at least some of which may go into this tank, too.

I'm thinking of upping my every other day water change, incase there is something in the substrate that is building up. In this case, I can add back nitrate and phosphate ,and add a bit more micros, to keep everything balanced.

[GrillMaster]

Hey Al...Usually algae like that is a direct result of lack of co2. If you have read thru Scolly's thread, his algae infestation was a result of this. Like Tom Barr has said over and over....Plants an algae dont lie, if you have algae, you dont have enough co2. What kind of reactor or diffuser are you using?

You could try this...

Take the co2 off the pinpoint controller an inject it manually. Crank the c02 up till you see the fish gasping, then back it down a bit. (I imagine this will get a few cringes!!) Give your plants a huge kick start. Once they really take off, start dosing again.

[lhforbes12]

Al,

I would suspect that the reduced growth in your plants would have a bigger influence on the reduced uptake of Nitrates. I'm not saying that the algae doesn't use some, just think the plants use it quicker and more efficiently when micros, CO2 and light are there in abundance. Same applies to phosphates too.

I've always used an unbroken photoperiod up until now, have had (and its beginning to come back - no CO2 still when I got home:mad: )a bit of an algae battle recently too, hence the change in photo period. Not convinced yet.

Paul,
This is actually incorrect. It's algae that can use NO3 and CO2 more quickly than "Higher" plants. It is probably how the old myths of not using PO4 and NO3 started. It's also why when doing a wc from straight tap water you usually see lots of pearling but continue to have worse and worse algae problems. I know you and Al and DC are probably getting tired of my prosletyzing about using a UV or diatom filter after a wc, but it truly works. There just isn't any easier way to be rid of algae. I'll post this picture which was taken yesterday of my 125. The tank has been set up just iver two months and has never had algae, and the walls have never been wiped for algae. It's so simple, I know it can't seem right, but it works. I dose samall doses 6 days a week, wc 50% once a week (no dosing on wc day to "re-set" the tank) CO2 is injected but only at 15 ppm, lighting is CF @ 384 watts 6700K.

[donaldbyrd]

[QUOTE=bastalker]Hey Al...Usually algae like that is a direct result of lack of co2. If you have read thru Scolly's thread, his algae infestation was a result of this.
you may want to re-read scolly's thread, he never came to the conclusion that it was a lack of co2, the only suspect at this time is a silver coaster.

[Alight]

I've been following Scolley's thread as some of you may know through to the end. Yes, I know he concluded it wasn't lack of CO2 and yes, I already tried upping CO2 until the Discus were clearly having a problem, and backed off it. It turned out that my CO2 measurements were exactly correct.

I had calculated my CO2 at between 35 and 45 ppm, and when I let it go up only slighty more than where I had it set, two of the Discus and several of the cardinal tetras were definitely having a problem. Backing down to my previous CO2 level solved that problem. High and constant CO2 is not necessarily the solution to all algae problems.

Things are much better now, with more plants growing faster again, and dosing keeping nitrates at 10 ppm, and PO4 at 0.5 - 1 ppm. I'm changing larger quantities of water for now--60% every other day, until my plants start using more NO3 again, then I'll back off the changes a bit. Algae has slowed down considerably, but not stopped, but the kind of algae has changed from the horrible thread and really tight binding hair types to a foamy, cloudy algae that the otos seem to prefer. I even got brave and added some HC and some cabomba furcata to the tank, and they both seem to be doing well.

I've got 14 otos in my quarantine tank that will be ready in a couple of weeks, and I'm betting that they will put and end to this debacle!

Larry, I truly believe that a diatom filter and UV unit is a very good way to go after a water change to eliminate the small seeder bits of algae that break off during a change. I'm sort of hoping I can get away without it and the otos will do the final job.

I'll take some new pics once the HC gets more established.

Al Light

[magicmagni]

I personally think you need more CO2. You can add more without stressing the fish if you DON'T use the controller part of your PH monitor. Plug the solenoid into the timer so that is goes on and off with the lights. Set a bubble rate and tweak it untill you get the disired results. Plants don't need Co2 at night and the fish benefit from the break. Doing this will allow you to run higher amounts of Co2 during the day when plants need it. Start at about 2 bubbles a second. Slowly increase the bubble rate until you start to plants pearling. Don't worry so much about the chart- Amano doesn't use a chart. Also I find that Discus need some airiation at night in this type of environment. My guys were very stressed without it. Just keep increasing the bubble rate. Eventually you will see the plants pearling and as time goes on the oxygen levels will begin to build up to the point that the high Co2 will not be any problem anymore.

[GrillMaster]

I personally think you need more CO2. You can add more without stressing the fish if you DON'T use the controller part of your PH monitor. Plug the solenoid into the timer so that is goes on and off with the lights. Set a bubble rate and tweak it untill you get the disired results. Plants don't need Co2 at night and the fish benefit from the break. Doing this will allow you to run higher amounts of Co2 during the day when plants need it. Start at about 2 bubbles a second. Slowly increase the bubble rate until you start to plants pearling. Don't worry so much about the chart- Amano doesn't use a chart. Also I find that Discus need some airiation at night in this type of environment. My guys were very stressed without it. Just keep increasing the bubble rate. Eventually you will see the plants pearling and as time goes on the oxygen levels will begin to build up to the point that the high Co2 will not be any problem anymore.

Thanks magic, thats pretty much what I was tryin to say. You just said it alot better:thumbsup:

[Alight]

Actually, I'm way beyond 2 b/sec. More like 10-15. I actually did pretty much what you suggested from the very beginning. I have the solenoid on a timer so CO2 comes on about 2 hours before the lights (I watched the pH, and found that it took that long to stabilize at the pH I wanterd) and it goes off about 30 minutes before lights off.

I still use the controller as a back up, set at pH 6.1 (6.2 is my target level). I adjust the KH so that the CO2 level is between 35 and 40 ppm (I set kH at 70 ppm) at pH 6.2.

This level of CO2 is actually way beyond initial pearling, and the plants fizz like soda pop with pearling.

The bubble rate is so fast both to keep a fairly high CO2 concentration, which is made a bit more difficult because I keep constant aeration with a bubble wall at the back of the tank, and because I use HOB filters that do disturb the surface a bit.

I have a 10 pound CO2 tank, so it still keeps going quite a while (been going for 6 months now, and haven't emptied it yet).

I'm certain my problem is not CO2. Increasing water changes has resulted in reduced algae growth. Algae is not only a problem on the highest plant tips, closest to the lights. I suspect that will go away once I unleash the newest batch of otos that are now in quarantine.

I think that the real problem is the fish load, and my overfeeding compulsion. As long as that remains, the plants can never grow fast enough to use up enough nutrients to put algae on stasis. However, I believe that I have slowed the algae down enough that some competent algae eaters can finish off the rest. I'll know in about 3 weeks. I'll shoot some new pictures then. The tank actually is looking much nicer, now that things are almost under control.

Now if I can just prevent the Discus from fighting so much that they plow through my newly growing Hemianthus Callachtroides

[lhforbes12]

Al,
I certainly agree with you that lack of CO2 can not possibly be your problem. I also feel that you are correct about needing fast growing plants to out compete your algae. Hmmmmmmmm I happen to have lots of H. difformis, L. repens. and Bacopa if you want some.

Larry

[magicmagni]

Wow 10 to 15 bps is a lot. I'm running about 5 bps on my 120 gallon tank with inline DIY reactor. Well "most" of the time it is caused by a lack of Co2 in a high light tank. I get a BBA outbreak like clockwork everytime I let the Co2 run low. Last time it happened I found that I had a leak on the solenoid. The time before that when it happened I had a leak on the regulator itself. It's possible that you have a leak someplace. Take some soapy water and wet all the connections just to be sure. You never know.

Pearling is a good sign (just after a water change doesn't count). Just keep removing what algae effected leaves that you can by hand. Add some fish to eat what you can't remove- True Siamese algae eaters work great on this stuff- The water changes. Discus make a lot of waste so even 2 or more times a week water changes may be needed depending on how the bio load. Also don't forget to re fertilize after so that you don't stunt the plants growth.

Best of luck. I've had my fare share of this stuff when I was starting out and it was no fun.

[Alight]

Thanks, everyone for suggestions. They are always welcome!

I checked the regulator for leaks when I first started the unit up, and checked it again later on. No leaks for sure.

Very likely it's because my reactor is just my AC 110 filter. I feed the CO2 into the top of the intake tube. On the other hand, I see little if any CO2 bubbles coming out of the filter, so it must be that the great majority of the CO2 is dissolved. No bubbles in the intake portion of the filter, either so the CO2 must be moving over to the sponge side. I think the amount of CO2 is just because of the surface ripple (I have a second HOB filter in this tanke, too) and bubble wall.

Larry, thanks much for offering the difformis, but I already have some--or should I say had? I used it when I first started up the planted tank. Some remains, as I used it as a "lawn" in the front of the tank for a while (grows nicely low and horizontal under high light) but I'm now trying to replace it with HC which should be a better surface for the Discus to feed from.

I also had H. polysperma in the tank (still have some of that) and H. Corombosa, so there should be plenty of fast growing plants. With the CO2 and fertilizers and high light (I do fertilize to target levels with NO3, PO4 and micros after water changes) my swords, and even my R. macranda are pretty darn fast growing plants, and the cabomba is crazy fast.

I'm changing water every other day, now (60%), until I beat back the algae and can turn up the photo period a bit. Once things are totally under control, I'll up the photo period and back off to 30% water changes every other day. I really believe, at this point, that just adding the new otos will pretty much take care of the problem, as the algae growth is pretty reasonable now. I'll update this after I add them and let people know if that did the trick.

Al Light