At what age can you start using PP on fry?

[kaceyo]

They are 23 days old today and I just found the first dead fry. I treated with formlin 2 weeks ago (1.5 drps p/gal) when I noticed some gill rubbing and don't want to treat again. There has been a little rubbing the last two days but not enough to worry about untill I found the dead guy. He was one of the smaller guys I would have ended up culling anyways but still. I'm doing 2 wc's daily and wiping tank walls down at least every other day along with squeezing the sponge. I'm still not going to treat unless it becmes a real prob but would like to try PP if it becomes nescesary. Whats the earliest PP can be used and at what dose?
Thanks,

Kacey

[Discusgeo2]

Kacey I have not done it on young Discus but I went back into my files of stuff I saved from Jim Quarles years ago and this is what he said:
Warning:::: PP should never be used on small discus under 3 inch in total size. If you use enough to kill the parasites you will also burn the fish gills of small discus.

Here is his dosage in case you need it for your larger Discus.

Potassium permanganate powder Treatment of extrenal parasites, external lesions, bacteria on the skin. Fungi, protozoa, monogenea, hirudinea ( leeches ) crustacea ( argulus, lernaea.) 22.8 grams to 4 oz. Of water. The use 2 drops per gallon=5ppm. Should be used only in ph range of 7 or above.

[kaceyo]

Thanks George,
That makes sense. Such a small amount of tissue on the fry gets burnt too easily. I'll just consentrate on keeping water and tank clean as I've been doing.

Kacey

[Gold Mt Discus]

Sent you an email Kacey.

[ShinShin]

PP can also be used at the dosage of 1/8th tsp./20gal of water, but it is not a choice of treatment I recommend. I am not convinced that adult discus do not suffer gill damage. This was the overused/misused treatment so popular in the '90's on the forum, but not used so much today. Salt and heat have become today's overused/misused treatment.

Are you sure it is gill flukes? Why not a second treatment and third treatment with formalin? One treatment will never work. Fluke Tabs are safe for three week old fry. I've used them on 2 week old fish. Use full dosage on package insert or container. Do not use at 1/2 dosage. You are wasting your time and money. Remove any plecoes in the tank first.

You may have a bacterial infection in which case I would use neomyacin sulfate.

Mat

ps. - The self proclaimed "Discus God" from Down Under claimed to have used PP on fry several days old with no ill effects. But, then again, he made many such claims on many varied topics before his sudden disappearance.

[kaceyo]

Hey Mat,
I really wasn't convinced using PP on 1" fry was a good idea but thought it worth asking about as I've had good experiences using it on my larger fish. I know Ryan (Orlando Discus) has used it at that stage without problems and I found a couple of other places on the web that agreed, but just as many that didn't. I havn't needed to use anything on my fry other than Epsom salt for bloat and formalin once on artificially raised fry. That time one dose of formalin did it. Not this time. I also considered Dylox (since I have some) as I know Fluke Tabs have been used on small fry, but don't know the dosage of dylox in Fluke Tabs. I don't like to use formalin if I can avoid it as it plays havoc on the biofilter.
I ended up using Parasite Clear, which did the trick and they are doing 100% better now.
Do you know of cases where properly used PP treatments are suspected of causing gill damage? It does seem like that would be a big concern but I've never seen anything but speculation written up on the subject.
Thanks,

Kacey

[ShinShin]

Just the claims of various users of PP. I have no idea if it is true or not. My thinking is that if it is strong enough to oxidize protozoas, then why not the membrane on any fish's gills?

The reason I mentioned one formalin treatment will not rid a tank of flukes is because the life cycle of the pest. Generally at least 3 treatments over 7 days is recommended.

Mat

[Green Country Discus]

Kacey and Mat, I happen to be a big fan of PP used properly and have used it on young fry, recently on some 2 week olds with the desired results. It was totally my fault that I had to treat. Usually, I treat all pairs with PP as they are set up in breeding tanks to eliminate any nasties, this time I did not:( . IMHO, flukes are too often blamed for fry problems when it is indeed bacterial and or poor maintenance, ie: lack of proper cleaning and WCs = bacteria problems. If flukes are the problem then prazi is the way to go. I do agree Mat that salt and heat are way over recommended. IMO, when fry are dropping, formalin treatment does more harm than good. I would never recommend the use of PP for anyone unfamiliar with its use.

[kaceyo]

Hey Andrew,
I have had only good experiences with PP treatments, though I did scare myself with it the second time I used it. No harm was done so it was a good lesson learned. I've only had to treat fry
for flukes once before and a single dose of formalin took care of it without need for further treatments. When one dose didn't work this time I looked for something else as I agree that formalin wasn't a good choice.
When you used the PP on the 2 week olds did you use the same consentration and go as long as you would for adults?
Thanks,

Kacey

[edwardlong]

I would prefer to use acriflavine for all size of fishes for suspected gill glukes cases. And they are readily available too like PP. PP would be too strong in my opinion for babies. Moreover, they stain the glass and you need to renew them when it's expended (water turn brownish).

I do note that you scrub your tanks every other day. Do you think its necessary?

[kaceyo]

Hi Edward,
I've never used acriflavin at all so I don't now how well it works. From what I've read I'd think there are better things around for flukes but thats based soley on what is recommended by others. When raising fry from eggs I think keeping the tank walls wiped down is absolutly necessary, along with squeezing out the sponge filter. In fact I've started doing it daily instead of every other day since I started losing fry. My adult tanks get wiped down once a week and that is plenty under normal conditions. But fry need a very low bioload environment to really thrive and the bbs can foul the tank and build up in the filter very quickly.
BTW, I haven't lost one fry since the Parasite Clear treatment, which I'll repeat tomorow.
Thanks,

Kacey

[Green Country Discus]

Kacey, I have found that cleaning the sponge daily makes a big difference with fry health. I do use PP at "my" regular dose with the fry and for a 2 hour duration. I was starting to loose a couple of fry a day with that batch and after treatment all is well. I find that a 2 hour treatment is right with PH of 7.6. In our breeding tanks with a PH of 7, 4 hours works fine without causing extreme duress with the fish. I have never used acriflavin. I do feel that Prazi is the ticket for flukes. HTH

[aziyaeian]

Hi
You can ask from Andrew soh
He has great experience to using PP.
It is my idea and you can try it. You do not loss anything if asking him.

Regards
Afshin

[kaceyo]

Thanks to all for the advice. Hopefully in the future I won't need to treat my fry. My previous spawns all did fine on wipedowns and sponge cleaning every other day, but this has convinced me I need to do it daily for the first couple of months, along with cleaning up the breeders before hand.

Kacey

[ShinShin]

Kacey,

Are you sure you had flukes? I know of no one who has ever cured a case of flukes with one treatment with any drug/chemical. This is because of the reproductive cycle of the fluke.

Mat

[kaceyo]

Mat,
Of course I can't be sure it's flukes as I don't have a microscope. But I've done two Parasite Clear treatments so far and have one more to go. The deaths did stop after the first treatment of hyde but I didn't follow thru based on my previous experience where one treatment was enough for fry. So based solely on their reaction to parasite meds I'd say it was flukes. I think that sometimes the fry react very strongly to flukes due to their small size, even tho there isn't really a full blown infestation. Then one dose gets the number of flukes down low enough that, while not eradicated, they are at a level that the fry can tolerate. This is purly speculation of course.

Kacey

[ShinShin]

Of course. lol

[genek]

Well, I actually did a PP treatment this morning on my one month old fries. The concentration was 10 ppm lasting for 15-20 min. That worked fantastic. All of my fries survived and they appeared more active than before treatment. You can actually see some sticky mucus floating in the water after treatment, which could be the dead bodies of gill fluke mixed with gill secretions. During treatment, make sure an extra aeration should be supplied in the tank and the aeration should continue for 24 hrs after treatment to make sure the fries can receive enough oxygen to survive. Quench pp with Vitamine C solution after 15-20 min and do 50% water change after the treatment. Add a bunch of salt in the water after treatment will help the fish recover faster from the medication. Usually, they will appear really weak right after the pp is quenched and it will take them 2 hours to fully recover from it.

I think pp is a really good choice when you are facing both gill fluke and bacterial infection.

Just my two cents.

[kaceyo]

10ppm is pretty high for 1mo old fry, even if it was for a short period of time. Let us know how they do over the next few days.

Kacey

[Graham]

Actually 10ppm for any size fish is a risk....the odds are the gills will be brunt and possibly some fin tips.

It use to be done a fair amount within the koi hobby then someone did a microscopic study of the gill lamallae and they were hyperplasic and brunt...that was the end of that practise.

kacey get a scope...great thing to have

[genek]

They are doing fine after 24 hours. Eating nonstop and swimming all the time. I tried lower concentration at 2 ppm for longer time and it wasn't as effective in killing gill fluke. Although 10 ppm is going to burn part of the gill tissue while killing fluke, the thing we can do is to give the fish more than enough oxygen and time so that they can recover from the burnt and regenerate their gill tissue. I don't think pp treatment is going to have longterm negative effect on the heath of fish or human. I prefer pp to formalin because I know that too much exposure to formalin is going to cause human cancer.

[kaceyo]

I'm working on it Graham. On a budget so I've been checking the UW public surplus sales.
Kacey

[Graham]

Although 10 ppm is going to burn part of the gill tissue while killing fluke, the thing we can do is to give the fish more than enough oxygen and time so that they can recover from the burnt and regenerate their gill tissue.

Genek the idea is to kill the parasite and not affect the patient while doing it. Allowing gill lamellae or fins to be brunt is not good husbandry IMO....in fact it's cruel and possibly lethal to the fish IMO. It can also leave the fish wide open for secondary infections to set in.

There has been some research done on koi that have had excessive PP treatments.Their gill lamellae have shown extra cell thickness and clubbing, not exactly healthy looking tissue.

You would probably have to drink Formalin weekly, which is 37% formaldehyde in water, to be able to develop cancer. Formaldehyde is a possible carcinogen but it takes extended exposure to even come close to those levels. Generally it's mixed with Malachite Green, because they work better together than separately,and it is a known carcinogen.

Now while PP won't kill you it quite capable of burning eyes, nostrils, lungs if inhaled....extreme caution should used when handling the powder.

F&MG is much better at killing flukes than PP is and it won't burn the crap out of their gills.

[Polar_Bear]

Genek the idea is to kill the parasite and not affect the patient while doing it. Allowing gill lamellae or fins to be brunt is not good husbandry IMO....in fact it's cruel and possibly lethal to the fish IMO. It can also leave the fish wide open for secondary infections to set in.

There has been some research done on koi that have had excessive PP treatments.Their gill lamellae have shown extra cell thickness and clubbing, not exactly healthy looking tissue.

You would probably have to drink Formalin weekly, which is 37% formaldehyde in water, to be able to develop cancer. Formaldehyde is a possible carcinogen but it takes extended exposure to even come close to those levels. Generally it's mixed with Malachite Green, because they work better together than separately,and it is a known carcinogen.

Now while PP won't kill you it quite capable of burning eyes, nostrils, lungs if inhaled....extreme caution should used when handling the powder.

F&MG is much better at killing flukes than PP is and it won't burn the crap out of their gills.


While I definately agree with this, I also think if what Genek is doing is working for him/her then they should continue doing it. Personally I never dose stronger than 4 ppm PP for any fish, but I do keep them in a PP bath longer than most folks do, at least 6 hours. I would definately be afraid to dose fry at more than 2 ppm Potassium Permanganate, but I tend to be very cautious when using medications. I tried using Formalin but it did not work for me at all. I was using 1 drop per gallon which I found out later (from Al (Brewmaster)) was about 1/2 the required dosage, so I may revisit the Formalin treatment next time my fish develop gill flukes.

[Graham]

Sorry I can't agree with you PB. The protocol that Genek is using IMO is plain wrong...that you should think that he should continue to use it is wrong also IMO

G

[genek]

How do you know the PP protocol is wrong? I have been doing this more than a dozen times and never get it wrong. I am going to keep doing this in the future. Each time my fish shows signs of gill fluke, I treat them with PP. I have not lost a single fish due to pp treatment.
And how do you know formalin and malachite green don't do any harm to fish? I have been doubting that malachite green might be the cause of increased mutation rates in the fries. This thing is suspected to cause this kind of problem not just cancer. As for the formalin, it is a volatile and reactive chemical reagent that will easily go into air and react with the proteins in your body after being inhaled. It has been used to modify the lysine residues in the proteins in biochemical studies. I mean everything has its bright and dark sides. We want to make use of the bright side and try to avoid the dark side. For the formalin protocol, I will strongly recommend fully ventilation in the room during treatment to avoid inhaling of this nasty chemical. If you are using malachite green in combination with formalin, please wear glove to avoid touching it. Otherwise it will be absorbed through your skin.

Again, every chemical has its side effects. Before applying them, we always need to think twice if it is necessary and learn as much as possible about the properties of the chemical itself.

Gene

[Graham]

How do you know the PP protocol is wrong? I have been doing this more than a dozen times and never get it wrong. I am going to keep doing this in the future. Each time my fish shows signs of gill fluke, I treat them with PP. I have not lost a single fish due to pp treatment.
And how do you know formalin and malachite green don't do any harm to fish? I have been doubting that malachite green might be the cause of increased mutation rates in the fries. This thing is suspected to cause this kind of problem not just cancer. As for the formalin, it is a volatile and reactive chemical reagent that will easily go into air and react with the proteins in your body after being inhaled. It has been used to modify the lysine residues in the proteins in biochemical studies. I mean everything has its bright and dark sides. We want to make use of the bright side and try to avoid the dark side. For the formalin protocol, I will strongly recommend fully ventilation in the room during treatment to avoid inhaling of this nasty chemical. If you are using malachite green in combination with formalin, please wear glove to avoid touching it. Otherwise it will be absorbed through your skin.

Again, every chemical has its side effects. Before applying them, we always need to think twice if it is necessary and learn as much as possible about the properties of the chemical itself.

Gene

How do I know it's wrong..Duh....if you're bruning the gills of your fish and at 10ppm you, are then it's wrong

I see no evidence of you using a microscope so your signs of flukes are a guess at best and you're shotgunning at a lethal dose of PP hoping for the best...Bull S*** luck that you haven't killed your fish yet

Any chemical, be that F&MG or PP is capable of doing harm to the fish ...Use enough of any one them and they'll kill your fish.... why dip your fish in a known lethal concentration...wrong in my mind

Now if I was using straight formaldehyde and I have at times, then I might use a mask...MG, gloves for sure..up until the fire I had both here as I mixed my own...........but an off the shelf product I don't think so.......... The concentrations that are in them are not even close to being toxic. Formalin is pretty safe in comparsion to formaldehyde ...two different things really

Anyway I still think that your dip is totally uncalled for and cruel to the fish

G

[genek]

Now I tell you the definition of formalin:
---------------------------------
Formaldehyde

General
Common name formaldehyde
IUPAC name formaldehyde
Systematic name methanal
Other names formalin, formol,
methyl aldehyde,
methylene oxide
Molecular formula CH2O
SMILES C=O
Molar mass 30.03 g/mol
Appearance colourless gas
CAS number [50-00-0]
--------------------------
This is taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formaldehyde

You can check it out yourself. I am not going to waste my time with someone rude. Your reply is kind of personal offence instead of discussing.

No more replies.

[Graham]

:D Gene that's very good, you posted what pure formaldehyde is....if you had kept reading you would have found that Formalin is a 37% solution of that gas, formaldehyde and water with some methanol thrown in.

Then if you add 15 grams of Malachite Green to each gallon of it you'll have a typical off the shelf parasite meds like Quick Cure.