Gill problem

[David Fernández]

Hi all,

I have a problem with 3 of my 5 adult discus, especially with a 3-year old female (yellow pigeon). She has been breathing very hard during the last weeks, especially during the last days. Four days ago she began to breath only through one gill. She has some kind of semitransparent, irregular and twisted tissue hanging out from gills. I have not observed any scratching against plants.

The 450-liter (118-gallon) aquarium where they are has de next water parameters:

T = 28ºC
pH = 6.8-6.9
kH = 3 (german degrees)
NO2 = 0 mg/l
NO3 < 1-2 mg/l
PO4 = 1.0-2.0 mg/l (beefheart mix...)
Fe = 0-0.5 mg/l

I change 35% of the water every week (strictly). I use R.O. water with discus salt and potassium carbonate.

I attach some pictures of one of the discus. This is a male LSS and, as you may see, he has a kind of irregular tissue membrane which is hanging out from gill:

http://www.am.ub.es/~dfernand/acuario/060508BranquiasGloty1.jpg

I have outlined the membrane here:

http://www.am.ub.es/~dfernand/acuario/060508BranquiasGloty1b.jpg

Other pictures of the same fish:

http://www.am.ub.es/~dfernand/acuario/060508BranquiasGloty2.jpg

http://www.am.ub.es/~dfernand/acuario/060508BranquiasGloty3.jpg

http://www.am.ub.es/~dfernand/acuario/060508BranquiasGloty4.jpg

As I said, only one of the fishes is breathing through one gill. Other two discus seem to have a problem in the gills, since they have this kind of membrane hanging out from them. Another two discus in the same tank are not affected at all.

After an gill fluke infection due to the introduction of one infected fish, I made use of potassium permangante (KMnO4) in this aquarium 3 months ago. So, at present I suppose this is not a case of gill flukes. During this fluke episode 3 months ago, all my discus were breathing only through one gill only one week after the introduction of the infected fish. Now, as I said, it seems that 2 discus are not affected at all, 2 more discus are partially affected, and one discus is seriously affected.

Any comment on my case...? It could be a bacterial problem, perhaps?

Thanks in advance.

Regards to everybody,

David.

[Dis-moi pourquoi]

Just bumping this up, because I am curious about this too. I received my discus as subadults - adults, and they seem to have that too. It didn't seem to cause any problems so I assumed it was normal, or maybe just a less desirable trait that some discus had (should have been a cull??)

Anyway, if anyone could shed some light on this, I would be interested to learn something! :)

[grelot]

I have no answer for you but I have discus that has it too.
I a tank I have 11 discus. 3 of them open the gill plates very wide when breathing and we see this membrane. They dont seems sick and are doing very well(eating etc) But they open the gills very very wide and all the time I can see this membrane.
The other discus in the tank dont open the gills as wide and this membrane is kept invisible all the time.

So I was wondering if it was some sort of congenital defect, the result of some kind of infection, something caused by PP treatment etc.

[fishball]

bump


from inspection of the pics, can anyone tell what type of problem this is? 2 - 3 of my fish have the exact same thing in the pic and if its a case of flukes or gill rot i want to treat them immediately...

-jon

[Ardan]

Hi,
sounds like flukes, could be bacterial.
would try the formalin treatment for gill flukes here
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=34834

hth
Ardan

[Polar_Bear]

I agree with Ardan, most likely gill flukes. I prefer PP (potassium permanganate) for gill flukes but Formalin is also effective. If you can find neither locally, almost all Ich meds contain Formalin. Just use as per the package directions, being especially careful to do a complete treatment.

I also agree that it could be bacterial but I would try something for gill flukes first since they are the more likely parasite in your case. One thing that you didn't mention is whether or not they are flashing (rubbing up against things) which would pretty much seal the case for gill flukes.

[fishball]

I agree with Ardan, most likely gill flukes. I prefer PP (potassium permanganate) for gill flukes but Formalin is also effective. If you can find neither locally, almost all Ich meds contain Formalin. Just use as per the package directions, being especially careful to do a complete treatment.

I also agree that it could be bacterial but I would try something for gill flukes first since they are the more likely parasite in your case. One thing that you didn't mention is whether or not they are flashing (rubbing up against things) which would pretty much seal the case for gill flukes.

thanks, I'll give the formalin treatment a try since I have the meds on hand. Other than the gills looking like what is in the pics, they don't exhibit any symptoms of sickness (no flashing or rubbing against objects) and they're still very actively eating and chasing their tank mates.

[Graham]

What you're seeing coming out of the gills is mucus...they gills are being irritated and this is the fish's way of protecting itself. The odds are it's flukes.

You can confirm if it's bacterial by catching one and gentely lifting the gill plate. bacteria;l infections will present as brown to cream coloured rotten looking lamallae. Flukes generally show as a whitish film on the gills from the irritation ...........a microscope would come in really handy at the moment

While PP is good on flukes, it generally does not get all of them and several doses over a number of weeks maybe required.

G

[Sue50]

I have the same thing in one of my RT's. I have done a 10 day PraziPro treatment and started treating with 1 tablespoon of salts per 10 gallons, upping it to 2 tablespoons and will treat with salts for 10 days. His respiration rate is nearly normal when not excited but the ragged portion still is hanging out. When excited his gills flare and he has heavy respiration. I caught him and lifted both gill plates today and his gills are bright red as normal, so it's not bacterial.


I called my breeder (Gabe at Jack Wattley) when I first got concerned about 15 days ago and he told me this:

One of two things damaged his gills......permanantly. Either an ammonia spike or PH Shock burned his gills. He is fine, he does not have flukes, the gills will ALWAYS look like this, they were damaged, but he won't die, he will be like a person who has emphysema and needs to breath heavier to get enough oxegen. The gills can not be repaired.

Gabe told me has the most regal hi-fin Turquoise male that has the same thing on one gill. He should live out a normal lifespan. He can still breed but the fry sometimes gets in the gill and really irritates it.

Gabe said, although those products (Prime or Amquel) allow the fish to get oxegen, the ammonia is still there in the water. And that ammonia can still burn and damage gills. He said it's a good thing I did the daily water changes like I did, it probably saved his life.




I'd like to have your thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Sue

[Alight]

The extended transparent gill plate is a common slight deformity in Discus. I have several with it. This is not noticeable except by very close inspection on these fish. The gill plate in the photo, however, is not normal as it is darkened, and frayed. This indicates either gill flukes or bacterial infection as Graham suggests. Adult Discus can usually deal with some level of fluke infestation and won't exhibit symptoms unless something else is a problem--usually water quality.

I'm having a problem understanding your tank. 5 Discus in a 118 gallon aquarium? No other fish? Is this a planted tank, with gravel, etc.?

I bring this up because a nice clean, planted tank, or a bare bottom tank with 5 adult Discus at 118 gallons with your water change regimen could have only 4 ppm NO3 in it. However, I've rarely seen such a lightly stocked tank of that size.

As suggested in the last post, often gill damage like your fish exhibits, happens due to ammonia or nitrite exposure, but can also happen due to bacterial infection from sepsis due to poor water quality (high NO3).

It is always possible that the damage you see was done previously, and this fish is healing, and the membrane will eventually, again, be transparent and all will be well if you do nothing, except keep the water clean.

For all of you with nice clean water due to frequent changes, if you see transparent gill coverings extending beyond the solid gill coverings, and they are nice and clear--don't worry. This is a slight deformity that I've seen reduce (never goes away) in appearance as the fish get older.

Whether this is due to genetics or neonatal environment, or a bit of both I don't know. But, I've had the experience that fry raised in very soft water express more of this deformity than fry rasied in water with more calcium. Whether this is because the calcium is essential for proper development, or the calcium interacts with a genetic predisposition, or the calcium prevents damage from some pollutant in the water (surfactants for example) I don't know.

[Graham]

Sue I hate to argue with Gabe but he doesn't understand ammonia and ammonia binding products, they do not leave the ammonia available to affect the fish...if they did they wouldn't be much good, now would they. They bind it up in a chemical compound that leaves the nitrogen available to the bacteria but no ammonia available to burn or poision the fish. The pic is from the Krodon web site and shows what happens when Amquel is used. Most of the other products work about the same
http://www.novalek.com/kordon/articles/howamquelworks_clip_image002.gif

BTW salt at that level will not affect flukes at all........2 tablespoons per 10 is about 5 teaspoons or a 1/2 per gallon, is about 0.05%...4 teaspoons per gallon or 0.4% will have an affect on flukes.

Graham

[Sue50]

Sue I hate to argue with Gabe but he doesn't understand ammonia and ammonia binding products, they do not leave the ammonia available to affect the fish...if they did they wouldn't be much good, now would they. They bind it up in a chemical compound that leaves the nitrogen available to the bacteria but no ammonia available to burn or poision the fish. The pic is from the Krodon web site and shows what happens when Amquel is used. Most of the other products work about the same
http://www.novalek.com/kordon/articles/howamquelworks_clip_image002.gif

BTW salt at that level will not affect flukes at all........2 tablespoons per 10 is about 5 teaspoons or a 1/2 per gallon, is about 0.05%...4 teaspoons per gallon or 0.4% will have an affect on flukes.

Graham

Thanks Graham, you aren't the only one to dissagree with Gabes explanation. I just wanted to share it and get other's opinions. Also thanks for the salt information.

I was using salts in case it was a bacterial infection, not for the flukes. I now believe he does not have a bacterial infection after looking under his gill plates. I can probably discontinue the salts now.

I don't know what caused my Discus' gill problem, but as long as he is happy and eating well, I'm ok with how he looks.

I have 10 Discus in a barebottom 120 gallon and make an 88 gallon water change every other day, 44 gallon every other day. Just 4 baby bristlenose in with my crew.