new member

[god61021]

let me introduce myself my name is dave im from northwestern illinois i currently have a 55 gallon full of african cichlids they are being moved to a 125.that tank is awesome with frontosas, blue dolphins,several mbuna species and one group of red peacocks.i am slowly becoming an african expert.in my other 55 gallon i have some american cichlids-firemouth,2 chocolates,an albino oscar,and a group of giant danios. they are not fully recovering from the three day power outage i had(long story).the large chocolate had a minor case of hole in the head he developed while living with my africans,water too hard i believe. anyway they all have slightly cloudy eyes and charlie(large chocolate) has an on again off again slime coating problem.im working hard to fix this issue.ive realized that i did not pay enough attention to water conditions for my american fish and am learning what to do and what not to do.and im learning that proper water conditions is not as much of a pain in the *** as i actually thought,i even look forward to it so now-.......im looking into starting a discus tank,i am looking at a 55 gallon tank ,full of fake plants and some sort of substrate,i plan on using two large filters instead of one,i would like to have a nice show tank that is fun to watch i dont plan on breeding.a bare bottom tank is not an option it looks like crap,imo, and i cant imagine the fish like it.i would also like to have a few small fish in there too.from reading on this site im thinking cardinals,bristlenose,SKUNK cories,rams,about 4 to 6 discus all purchased extremely young.im thinking i will buy about a dozen discus then thin the group as they grow.so on a run down my plans are this-55gallon tank - twice the normal filtration for normal fish -gravel or sand bottom - full of fake plants - 12 discus thinning to 4 to 6 as they mature -2 bristlenose - 6 skunk cories - 3-4 rams - maybe 12 - 24 cardinal tetras? - and a partridge in a pear tree.i planned on daily bottom syphoning with weekly 25-50% water changes - maybe using peat in the filters to bring ph down - a temp of about 85.now i would love for you guys (who ive come to think of as family in the last few days while ive silently studied discus in the background) to shoot this plan full of holes.i mean if theres problems with my plan i dont want to find out when fish start dying, so be brutal and i appreciarte any help.
thanx dave

[Timbo]

hi dave and welcome to simply

read your plan and you have obviously put some thought into it. if you would like some constructive suggestions based on experience:

#1 - discus are unlike other fish. the maintenance regime is much more demanding than what your other fish have required.
#2 -reconsider doing barebottom. you say "you cant imagine the fish like it"...well imagine again:) they will like it and its benefits, especially if you are attempting to grow them out from juvies. they are very messy eaters, poopers and slime generators but require pristine parameters; including tons of substrate and plants in the tank makes this difficult to achieve. most of us here started out with all that unnecessary stuff in the tank, but soon realized that its counter-productive to a clean environment. you can include a skim of sand and some fake plants (for your sake) but the discus will not benefit from it.
#3 - you will not really need two powerful filters on a 55. i'd suggest one and employ an air-driven sponge as a backup biological filter running all the time. your planned temp of 85 is fine
#4 - plan on changing your water change schedule to 25-40% daily, instead of weekly. this is important. success is highly unlikely with your proposed wc schedule. again, discus are not like your other fish.
#5 - dont bother with peat. lowering the ph artificially is unnecessary and troublesome. discus will do very well in higher ph's. stability is what is important

others here will have more input for you, but these are the basics.

[Kindredspirit]

l i would love for you guys (who ive come to think of as family in the last few days while ive silently studied discus in the background) to shoot this plan full of holes.i mean if theres problems with my plan i dont want to find out when fish start dying, so be brutal and i appreciarte any help.
thanx dave



Hey Dave! Welcome to Simply!


You have quite a plan and have obviously given it some thought as well ~ That is so good to hear ....your statement above!

Tim has pretty much covered the basics for you ~ and he is one of the best ~ I wanted to add that as far as bare bottom tanks ~ I do not think the discus really care one way or the other what is in their tank ~ IMO they adapt with no problem ~ It usually boils down to what the hobbiest cares about ~

I think that the best thing you can do for your discus esp if you are buying juvies is go with bare bottom and 50% wc daily ~ leave the pH alone but stablized ~ and house them alone while growing out ~

If not ~ you could be looking at potential problems some of which you are no stranger to as you said yourself ~ as you didnt pay much attention to water quality in the past ~ Discus are no exception to that rule ~


And you said that it wasnt such a PIA as you thought!! lol!! ( but worth it )


Good Luck, Sir and post some pictures soon!!!

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[dandestroy]

not much to say, just got my first 2 discus form a local breeder,

don't flame me but i decided to try them in my 20 gal (the discuss are 2"),
I wanted to see if i could make them survive happily with my other fish (cory, oto, sea, dwarf gourami, shrimp) (its a heavily planted tank with lots of light and hiding place, water parameter are near perfection...for plants)

First day went great, second day they started hiding and turned dark and stopped heating.


lesson learn in 5 days:

-Of course 20 gal is to small in the long run but also,
-2 discus is not enough to start with :(
- most plant don't survive well at 82 F (half of my plants started to decompose so imagine if i push it higher :( )
-to mush light is bad for discus :(
-faster fish make your discus hide and does not let food get to them :( .
-its a waste of time to put a divider to separate the other fish if your discus are already unhappy :(

Decision:
-before they die on me, i setted up a quarantine tank (only 5 gal but that is only waht i have in hand),
-pushed the temp to 90 F with 50% change daily (they mainly swin head slightly donward, and don't seems to heat)
-went to the store and purchased a 80 gal :o
-I'm going to fast cycle it (if there is such thing) and transfer the litle discus with some more discus friend in to it as soon as the water parameter are ready for it.

will see in a few month if they do better i will try to post some pick of them.

wish me luck and pray so they get better
(any other tip are very welcome)

[yeomans]

You 've mentioned that your plants don't do well at high temps. This is one of the tricky aspects of planning a discus showtank. You litterally have to start from the ground up finding certain plants that will work in the discus environment with ph, light and temp as major deciding factors.
You are right about the 2 discus not being enough,I usually like to keep juvies in groups of at least 5. As`far as quarintine goes, I would keep all of my fish in a tank for at least 6 weeks before introducing them into an established aquarium.
Tim's right about the regular water changes, discus benifit from big time water changes, I'd consider this one of the most important asspects of the hobby. When discus look like there are heatlh problems do a water change before moving them around or administering any meds, most of the time a simple water change will help the fish out. I like to use as little chemicals or meds as possible in my tanks.
Also keeping your ph stable is important, to many times people will try to lower their ph, harming the fish when they could have just keep it stable. a ph of 7.9 stable is better than a ph of 6.4 that you have to try to keep stable everyday, discus aren't to fond of large swings in ph.
And finallly WELCOME to the fourm, this is the best place online for discus help and questions, if you keep posting someone will answer, and has most likely had the same problems occur before.
best of luck josh

[god61021]

oh yeah?! well who asked you?! ....oh wait i did.lol. that sucks i really wanted a nice looking tank but fish health comes first.ok so no substrate,no tankmates? what about the bristle nose and cories just to help with tank maintenance?also i have read a couple of posts about carbon in filters can lead to disease,whats that all about?and last but not least do the number of discus im thinking of sound right?

[RyanH]

I can't speak for anyone else but I'd be much more likely to explain the evils of carbon if you weren't flipping me off.

[yeomans]

Substrate is an ever ending debate, if you want to have it go for it, it's a totally personal prefernce, but as far as overall fish health goes,I'd always go bare bottom.
The number of fish sounds good, starting of with a bunch of juvies, letting them grow out, and selecting the keepers is a great way to start in the hobby, it's very rewarding when a fish you have grown since a juvie spawns.
I don't keep any other species with my discus, just my personal prefence, the option is totally open for you to decide.
I don't run any carbon in my filters, it has the potential to realease toxins back into the water.
hope this helps

[Tony_S]

I can't speak for anyone else but I'd be much more likely to explain the evils of carbon if you weren't flipping me off.


LOL!!I was kind of thinking the same thing....Ya wanna make some friends?? Nothing like refering to yourself as 'GOD'....then flippin everyone the bird, I always say.....

Tony

[Kindredspirit]

OMG ~ I never noticed that boys!! Did notice the God but not that flippin off ~



Very Observant ~:D



Marie ~

[god61021]

that is what we call a photograph it isnt a real person just a picture of one i know it looks like the eyes are following you but they are not......im just kidding .i like to joke around im harmless until provoked i dont mean to offend anyone and thats the only pic of me on this here puter.besides if the discus wont notice the bare bottom my pic, shouldnt bother them either.lol.(and i cant understand why im still single.) and as far as the god thing i have a very high self esteem.the doctors say im doing much better.and if none of you guys will tell me why carbon is bad then i wont tell you my secret grilled cheese recipe!

[Kindredspirit]

Dave ~


All joking aside I think it is offensive and you might think of changing your avatar ~ This is a family site and I actually thought of a not so good memory when I noticed it~

Sooooooooo.........come on Dave!! You can do it! lol!

I would hate to see the ones that addressed this issue not ret to help ~ You had the best of the best ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[god61021]

ok heres me and my twin brother.ok i dont agree but i changed the pic to keep the peace and i apologize for offending anyone.i really do appreciate all the help i received so far.so about the carbon?lol.and your still not getting my grilled cheese recipe.lol.

[RyanH]

Not a big deal, just didn't really think it was necessary.

OK yeah, carbon...

There are two issues with carbon that are a concern:

1. Along with removing impurities that are harmful to fish, it also indiscriminately removes essential trace elements that fish need for optimum health.

2. Once it has been in your filter for an uncertain period of time, it begins to dump the impurities back into your water. When this actually occurs is anybody's guess. It may be a few days or a few weeks depending on the carbon. However, you are basically exposing your fish to all of the nasties that it had been storing up since it was introduced.

Lose the carbon. Change your water often. Your fish will be happier. JMHO.

As far as the substrate thing goes, if you use it your water will be dirtier. Period. For adults the difference may not even be noticeable as long as you are diligent with your cleaning and maintenence. With juveniles, it's damn difficult to grow them out to their potential and keep them healthy with gravel present.

Countless people try. Many tell us we're full of it. Before you know it, these same people are in the disease forum asking for help. It's just the way it is.

I have the same background in fish as you. I kept Africans for a long time before getting into Discus. I love Fronts and the Malawi cichlids. They're beautiful and mean as hell. They're also a very different beast than Discus. Forget everything you knew as an African Cichlid guy. This is competely different.

When people say that Discus are difficult to keep, what they are really saying is that Discus can't be kept the same way they have always kept other fish. They're just too stubborn to realize it. Discus are no more difficult to keep than other fish. They just have specific needs. Namely pristine water and meaty, nutritious food. If you set up your tank with the best interests of the fish in mind rather than what you want in a tank, you will be richly rewarded.

There is nothing like growing out a dime-size fry into a 7" monster like this one. The first time you do so, you will be in love. :)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/RyantheHutt/DSC03127.jpg

Read through the beginner section. Pay close attention to the stickies posted by Carol Roberts. There is a wealth of knowledge there.

Welcome to Simply. :)

-Ryan

[god61021]

thanx i appreciate it no carbon,no substrate,no tankmates,steady ph is more important then low ph, got it.that is not what i had hoped to hear but that is what i needed to know.now i will go to the feeding section to try to get that figured out.
thanx dave

[korbi_doc]

thanx i appreciate it no carbon,no substrate,no tankmates,steady ph is more important then low ph, got it.that is not what i had hoped to hear but that is what i needed to know.now i will go to the feeding section to try to get that figured out.
thanx dave

Almost correct, exc for "no tankmates"....there is a thread to read "tankmates for discus"... many of us do keep other fish with discus; eg... I have Cories, BNplecos (really help keep the tank walls clean), & Rams..etc...read up on that one too! & as you gain experience, you will find out 'bout things like TDS, which I feel is more important than ph. That all depends on your water source....HTH, Dottie

[wpegden]

I second this list of tankmates. I have pleco, otos, rams, and am planning on addings cory's.

Now, I know that the isssue of substrates/water changes is very controversial on this list, but I want to throw out my view: IF you start with healthy fish, large weekly water changes can be sufficient, as can plants substrate, etc. Granted, if you start with juvies, they won't get to the dinner plate size that they might in a bare tank when we feed them lots and lots, but they can still grow into nice fish, without disease, problems, etc. In fact, their size will probably be closer to the 'natural" size of a discus in the wild.

Mathias from Discus Madness (http://www.discusmadness.com) sets up and maintains planted discus tanks for some local customers... if I remember correctly, his tanks (which of course I can't afford) have water changes once weekly. He makes these totally spectacular 3d-backgrounds that you can see on his website, and has lots of plants (and so, of course substrate). The Discus in these tanks are spectacular (I have seen them)... I think the key is that they are healthy fish to begin with.

Now of course, the breeding discus and juvies that he raises are in bare bottom tanks, on some crazy water changing regimen. But Discus (if you start with healthy fish!) can be displayed in planted tanks with substrate and weekly water changes. I have had almost no problems with my discus, and I change water once every 4-5 days. Juvies won't grow to be dinner plate size, but they can be healthy and happy. The key is to start with healthy fish. (And of course, don't overstock).

I should add that I do cut my tap with RO water, but that might be unneccesary if it weren't for the liquid rock coming out of the tap.

[lhforbes12]

Hi Dave,
Welcome to Simply!

I agree with most of what Tim and Ryan said. I would only differ with Tim in that, to me, 50% wc a day is minimum for young discus. I was once like you and did not like a tank without substrate, and I have succesfully raised discus with a substrate in the tank, so it can be done. However, it is next to impossible to have really clean water and substrate at the same time, especially with young discus who need to be fed often and heavily to reach their full potential. You could always start off bb and add a substrate once they are grown. I also agree with Ryan that 2 filters is probably over kill, but that's up to you. The other thing I notice is that a 55 gallon is bordering on being over stocked with the fish you want to add, which would be yet another reason for lots of wc's.
Again welcome to Simply and enjoy your stay

Larry

[poconogal]

Hi. I was keeping Discus 13 years ago in a tank with a full, 3 inch gravel bed. I had no problems with the health of my fish. I did weekly, 30-40% water changes, kept the tank immaculate, and made sure not to overfeed. I siphoned my gravel while doing my weekly water change. My gravel was pretty clean, as I sucked up a very minimal amount of gunk. I also used Chemi-Pure, which does have some carbon in it, without any problems, even though I know now that the use of carbon has become very controversial. I just kept the Chemi-Pure in the filter for only 3 months, instead of the 6 months that they say is okay. The only time I encountered a problem was when New York City's water became very unstable. I used tap water, which was soft and acidic, and dead on stable up until that point. I have again begun keeping Discus, and this time, I only have about a 1 inch gravel bed, simply to make cleaning easier. I still use my tap water, but since I now live in a rural, mountainous area, it is from my own well. (I actually put a dash of chlorine in my water container, just to make sure there is no bacteria in the water, and dechlorinate it before I do my WC. I also put notes all over the darn place reminding me to dechlorinate!!!) I still do once a week water changes, of about 40%, with water that is almost 100% exact in its parameters as my tank water. I still use Chemi Pure in my filter. As Wes mentioned in his post, :wave: HI, Wes, it is important to start with healthy fish. I too purchased some of my Discus from Discus Madness in New Jersey, (and yes, their Discus are spectacular, I have been there) and Mathias doesn't believe its imperative to go BB. I also have tankmates with my Discus - 2 Cory cats, and 13 Cardinal Tetras. I plan on upgrading to a bigger tank in a few months, and I then will add some Rummy Nose Tetras. I just read in Watley's column in TFH that Rummy Noses are a good choice, because if your water becomes unfit for the Discus, the Rummies will show it first, and their Red Noses will become light or gray. He said they are a good early warning system. What is important is making sure that you change enough water, at the MINIMUM of once a week, wipe down your tank interior when you do your W/C and clean your gravel bed thoroughly, if you have one, keep conditions as stable as possible, and DO NOT overfeed.
This is just my 2 cents...

[Clay]

Not to take this off topic, but your 55g with the 2 chocolates and the oscar and the firemouths are going to be needing upgrading a lot more than your africans. it's alright to overcrowd african's because that just settle sout the aggression more but as your chocolates and oscar grow, the bigger of them will jsut start kicking the crap out of the rest of them eventually to death.