DISCUS GARDE -WHAT A BUYER SHOULD EXPECT

[AmazonRainbows]

Waste of time.

[Rod]

AAgrade Young adult to breeder size specimens, as close as possible to type.

A grade Any size fish that has great potential to grow into an aa grade.

b grade the ones that exhibit minor errors in type but don't exhibit enough errors to be considered a cull. Pet shop grade.

Rod

[AmazonRainbows]

Thanks Rod.

[Kindredspirit]

AAgrade Young adult to breeder size specimens, as close as possible to type.

A grade Any size fish that has great potential to grow into an aa grade.

b grade the ones that exhibit minor errors in type but don't exhibit enough errors to be considered a cull. Pet shop grade.

Rod


Really? Soooo......Rod ~ AA is better than A grade? Oh wait Yes....I see that ....sorry! But my next question is there really is no way to tell if a fish will grow from an A grade to an AA right?


I had a point but I totally forgot what I was leading to!



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Rod]

Well thats my take on the gradeing system Marie, personally i don't use grades like that. I can't see how a young fish could be graded as aa grade, because you can't see final color,pattern, shape etc etc. In a young fish an experienced breeder can tell, partly by look and experience ,which ones will growout the nicest especially from among there own stock. These are the ones i keep for myself, the ones i sell to my internet discus friends and the ones that the hobbiest buys if they came around to visit me. I'm not saying all of these will turn out to be show specimens, but they should all turn out to be pretty good with exceptional ones among them. The rest get traded through the wholesale industry where a lower price discus is wanted.

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Rod ~ if you go and look at my post in the Photo Gallery under Candy's thread re Changing Color you can see the parents to our fish and then Dan's just posted some siblings ....

and I think that mine look pretty close to what the siblings will look like ~ but there is no real way to tell what a fish will look like ~ I guess ~




Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[DISCUS USA]

This is my take on that grading system from alot of buying experience..

B grade= not very desired by seasoned discus keeper,,but acceptable to newbies

A grade= acceptable discus quality for all

AA grade= better quality than average

AAA grade is just the importer or breeder way of saying holy cow this is a very high quality discus you better get them before they re gone..lol..

just my 2 cents.. :)


Hector--nYc--

[discusdave]

This is my take on that grading system from alot of buying experience..

B grade= not very desired by seasoned discus keeper,,but acceptable to newbies

A grade= acceptable discus quality for all

AA grade= better quality than average

AAA grade is just the importer or breeder way of saying holy cow this is a very high quality discus you better get them before they re gone..lol..

just my 2 cents.. :)

Hector--nYc--

I think Hector's post is a good rule of thumb for the buyer. I have much more experience as a buyer than as a seller, as I am new to importing and selling Discus, and make no claims to be a Discus Breeder.

I personally think that lower grade Discus are good for the newcomer to try for the first time. Who wants to spend a bunch of money on a Grand Champion Whatever only to have it die because of their own inexperience?

Where Dealers come in is to not sell culls or inferior fish to the unsuspecting newcomer while telling them they are high quality. That hurts everyone.

My sales philosophy is on my website. If I receive what I consider to be an inferior fish it stops with me and I deal with my supplier. No junk gets passed on to my customers.

[AADiscus]

We don't use a grading scale. We sell only the highest quality from each batch. We would not sell a fish to anyone we wouldn't want in our own tanks!!!;) Now that being said.....we also get first picks on the ones we want to keep for future breeders. lol :p I'm sure everyone has there own opinion on grading, etc. I think the responses you have got so far are good! I just think it's hard to set up a grading scale because I think everyone looks at a discus different. IMO We have learned alot and Dick's speech last year at the ACA taught us alot on what judges look for when they judge fish. Some things you would not really pay much attention to until it is pointed out to you. The pictures also in the University here with the Mod's rating them is great.

[AmazonRainbows]

The interesting thing here is that Grading system are made to set fixed reference as a comparaison point.

Base on the sponsor reply I believe that saying they have Discus Bad, Good, Very Good and Amazing will change absolutetly nothing. This is just not telling me more then a B, A & AA grade base on the reply I have until now.

Here is my question:

If I put a bunch of Disucs in a bucket and those fish are a strain you realy don't know about or where it is coming from. How do you do folks Grade the fish? Can you all be certain to end up with the same or close result?

Another interesting question is how can you verify with certitude that a A grade is not a B grade and a AA grade is not a A grade? Let's say a fish is A close to a AA. IF your Fish farm is selling the fish as a AA grade how can you be sure it's not a A grade close to AA but not a AA? How can you valuate your point to your seller without any doubt?

As I understand about how Discus grading system is done actualy (and base on the few reply I had) it is more a question of personnal appreciation from the Fish Farm then base on objective quality the fish should have. So a A grade fish could be grade as AA from another farm and so on...

Would you buy a care from a seller who is telling you the car is very good looking?

How can a buyer know if is expectation will be meet when buying a Discus if Grading is not set on a objective set of quality the fish should have?

My reflection may look strange but Discus Grade look more like a Mystery science then a well know and standard mesure to compare fish quality from a Fish Farm to another.

Here is a comparaison I would like to do:
Wine is very subtil to grade as it take a least 20 differents tastes and odor to synthetyse and it will also change over the time without the ability to know how it will turn out (I've been training myself a little as a wine tester). So IMO wine and Discus share a lot of commun thing.

But wine can be grade in a way that any good wine taster will be able to do without any mystery. So why can't it be the same with Discus?

I hope sponsor on the site does not feel I'm trying to put them in a corner. What i'm trying to do is more to lay down some base to help buyer and seller talk the same language so that both side know where they going when involve in a distant exchange.

This relation exist on both side. From the sponsor/distributor and the Fishfarm and from the buyer and the sponsor/distributor. So I think It wort the effort to start making this a little bit more clear.

[1977]

This entire subject is based on personal opinion. I wouldn't let a so called experts opinion on the quality of a discus influence me anymore than I would a wine or movie critic. Most of the time I find that I just disagree with their judgement. I've seen a lot of discus and have yet to see one I consider AAA grade anywhere, seen some nice ones but not perfect, do they really exist? In this hobby and with any purchase you really need to be careful and pick them yourself if possible because people will exagerate or even outright lie.

[AmazonRainbows]

This entire subject is based on personal opinion. I wouldn't let a so called experts opinion on the quality of a discus influence me anymore than I would a wine or movie critic. Most of the time I find that I just disagree with their judgement. I've seen a lot of discus and have yet to see one I consider AAA grade anywhere, seen some nice ones but not perfect, do they really exist? In this hobby and with any purchase you really need to be careful and pick them yourself if possible because people will exagerate or even outright lie.
1977,

I do agree with you about the so call expert opinion. (In the province I leave) I feel most of them are working more for ther pocket/boss then for the customer. Quebecor world is controlling almost all media sector (In the province I leave) and no body will ever put them down in a critisism because of fear to find a job in media. Also In today's world there is so much people that proclam therself "expert" without any formation or real professionnal formation it's a joke. I think the challenge for us regarding this is to found one in the group that have a close choice to ours own and stick to that.

Of course one point about my question is commercial Discus breeder are there to be in business. So it's normal they try to get the most out of ther sales and every body will do the same. The under meaning of my question is I think Discus trade/price are base on expectation more then on what you get. It's not base on my own experience as a buyer (because I have to many little to make my opinion) but more about the answer I received to my questions. If you do a base line like conformity point to grade the fish then you have to meet at least a base line. On the other side if you sale a Discus base on what it can become your are selling base on expeptation and as a customer you may pay for something you will never have.

This are all my tought that I think loud here so that you folks help me understand more about Discus business.

I do a lot of different thing for living. One of them is teaching. Has a teacher I whant to know how I'm doing so I do call by myself that some evaluation of my teaching work be made from the student. Some school are a shame a this point. They just wrote down stupid questions putting the teacher at the merci of all student expectation. But other school have a very well made questionnary made by specialist. By asking many question to the student they will drop the student that are puting you down just because they don't like you and they will also make the difference between the real work you have accomplish and the expectation the student have.

What I'm trying to see is where the Discus business is in this scheme. Right now I'm realy not at a place where I can tell the right from the wrong. I'm a newbie and I'm just learning. For me this is all the fun I get in all new hobby I do. Having an opinion already done would be a big mistake. It's just like when a studen give a quote to a teacher knowledge. Ok if the guy is a desaster it will show but how can someone who is learning can know if the master is right or not? They just can't or they would not need to take the course...

[Willie]

Have yet to see anyone offering B or C-grade discus on Aquabid or Ebay. I wonder where could all these fish have gone?

W :p :p :p :p :p

[Green Country Discus]

Amazon, I would agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But that being said, standards are set world wide with Discus shows, the winners would be the quality all others should strive for. Since you are new to Discus and want to learn what is quality, spend some time reading everything in the Discus University. The information is there to give you a keen eye for detail.

I would also agree that breeders classify and promote their Discus differently, some true and some not so true. I am with Willie on the Aqua Bid scenario LOL. Willie is one of the Judges in the University and uses a A,B,C type grading system. Check it out.

After studying the Discus University you will find that you will be grading most Discus that you see. It will take some time and practice to develop your eye to look for the important points. In every batch of 10 Discus you will have a top and bottom Discus and the rest fall in between. All 10 may be quality or all be dogs or a mix of the two. Discus are like fingerprints, they are all different.

If you are purchasing Discus and can't see than personally, ask for pics of the fish you are interested in and a pic of the parents if possible. Use your trained eye to be the informed buyer and do check out the buyer feedback on Simply sponsors. HTH

[ShinShin]

Discus grading is arbitrary at best. I've seen C grades, B grades, A grades, A+ to A++++ grades offered. What saddens me, though, is to see that some people still insist that there is a pet store grade discus. This tells me its about dollars and cents, and not improving the discus quality in our discus world.

Mat

[Condor]

Good discussion guys :)

[lhforbes12]

Amazon, I would agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But that being said, standards are set world wide with Discus shows, the winners would be the quality all others should strive for. Since you are new to Discus and want to learn what is quality, spend some time reading everything in the Discus University. The information is there to give you a keen eye for detail.

I would also agree that breeders classify and promote their Discus differently, some true and some not so true. I am with Willie on the Aqua Bid scenario LOL. Willie is one of the Judges in the University and uses a A,B,C type grading system. Check it out.

After studying the Discus University you will find that you will be grading most Discus that you see. It will take some time and practice to develop your eye to look for the important points. In every batch of 10 Discus you will have a top and bottom Discus and the rest fall in between. All 10 may be quality or all be dogs or a mix of the two. Discus are like fingerprints, they are all different.

If you are purchasing Discus and can't see than personally, ask for pics of the fish you are interested in and a pic of the parents if possible. Use your trained eye to be the informed buyer and do check out the buyer feedback on Simply sponsors. HTH

Andrew,
I couldn't agree with you more. However I truly believe you breeders and you hobbyists are talking "apples and oranges". You breeders, thankfully, are using a totally different criteria than the average hobbyist I believe. If I may I would like to use myself as an example. Two months ago I purchased a 3" lss from a local breeder for $75. I was quite pleased with the purchase. After studiyng Discus University I now find that I, in fact, purchased a quite inferior fish, and consider it to probably be a cull. The fish has far too many faults to be considered for breeding. But all that said, it is still a very beautiful discus (I will never use that breeder again though), and I will proudly keep it in my community tank once it is large enough.

1977 & Amazon,
The folks here that were giving you advice are in fact EXPERTS, and in the case of Willie, a world reknowned one, you may want to keep that in mind before you dismiss what they are telling you.

Larry.

[Elcid]

My recent experience in buying discus suggests the following grading system:

(1) Competition Grade - Breeder wants to sell for good money or win medal.
(2) Breeder Selects - Breeder wants to keep for himself or sell to breeders.
(3) A Grade - Meat for the Breeder
(4) B Grade - Potatoes for the Breeder
(5) AA AAA AAAA etc. Marketing for the Experienced Breeder/Importer

Sorry, I know this is limited to SPONSORS but just my 2 cents :)

take care,
Sandeep

[discusdave]

When I first saw this title I thought we were talking about a new medicine.:D

[pharaoh2653]

i am new to discuss and i may be way off but i used to be a dog breeder(boxers) and in my opinion buying a new puppy is in the same fashion as buying discuss. dogs arent rated as aa,a,b or whatever but i sell puppies as either show quality, breeder quality or pet quality. now there is a standard for dogs set out by the breed club that is used to help decide which dog is which(and i would expect the same for discuss although i dont know for sure) anyway this standard usually applies to an adult dog which as with discuss applies to adult fish. now if i understand your question right you are wondering how various breeders determine the quality of the fish and how they can tell from such a young fish. as far as dogs go that comes with experience. i know from experience what a champion dog looks like and from breeding i know what they look like as puppies and can tell and watch puppies grow to adults and tell if my guesses or(expert eye)is correct. there is no way to guarantee anything only make an assumption based on experience, genetics and several other criteria. a promissing pup may be a show champion or through growth not be that is the buyers risk. but it is a good risk because an experienced breeder can not gaurantee u a champion but can seperate pet quality from show quality. and help u make a better decision.
i dont know if any of this makes sense but i hope it helps

[Discus_KC]

Pierre,

Let me pose the question back at you. What are you looking for when you purchase Discus? I would think it would be a quality fish at a reasonable price. I see your profile lists you with 14 discus. How did you come about these fish? Did you IM or Email or call the seller? Or was it a combination. The point I'm making is you need to do your homework.

You need to prequalify the seller first. I buy fish and I sell fish so I see both sides. If you contact me I will ask a ton of questions to see where you are at as far as the hobby. I will ask for info on your tank, your parameters, and the care you intend to give before we go any farther.

If possible you should visit a breeder or seller and hand pick the stock. If you can't, ask for pics of the fish. If you don't receive them, look somewhere else. Give time to the person to take the photos.

Jack

[BobB]

Pierre,

Let me pose the question back at you. What are you looking for when you purchase Discus? I would think it would be a quality fish at a reasonable price. I see your profile lists you with 14 discus. How did you come about these fish? Did you IM or Email or call the seller? Or was it a combination. The point I'm making is you need to do your homework.

You need to prequalify the seller first. I buy fish and I sell fish so I see both sides. If you contact me I will ask a ton of questions to see where you are at as far as the hobby. I will ask for info on your tank, your parameters, and the care you intend to give before we go any farther.

If possible you should visit a breeder or seller and hand pick the stock. If you can't, ask for pics of the fish. If you don't receive them, look somewhere else. Give time to the person to take the photos.

Jack
For me it would be shape, coloring. I guess that covers it!

[AmazonRainbows]

1977 & Amazon,
The folks here that were giving you advice are in fact EXPERTS, and in the case of Willie, a world reknowned one, you may want to keep that in mind before you dismiss what they are telling you.

Larry.

Hello Larry,

I start this post because I realise that the grading system use for selling discus is not a standard, it's varying from seller to seller and when asking them what I should expect from a A grade or a AA grade no one can give me a clear answer. I know that some or many Discus distributor are not there at first to make money and they may loose money trying to import from new breeder. My goal here is realy not to get wrong the expert and if I been missing respect any how I would like to offer my apoligy. But I also think that asking question and asking for a clear answer is not missing respect.

On the bucket full of Discus question I have ask before I did not get clear reply. Having a reply like: <<you are right we would end up with many different result just like when you go in court with diffrent judge>> would be a clear answer to me. This wil tell me that I have to buy from all seller to find out witch one is gradin the A & AA fish according the most to my expection. Nothing more, nothing less. Because it will be base on my expection this will not mean that my best seller will be the best seller. It could be the worst seller for another Discus buyer.

This been said I also read the reply (in this thread) from a folk who buy a Discus as a breeder quality and after reading the Discus university he realise/find out the fish was not so great has the quote received for the sale. If the Discus University can lay some base to help this folk realise/verify the quality of the fish so why there is no standard from seller at least on the bottom grade.

Grading system do not need to be strong like a all or nothing. This could be a list of quality you search in a fish and a B grade is at least 2 out of 10, A grade 4 out of 10, AA grade 6 out of 10 and so on. This will give plany of room to not dowgrade a fish with some realy nice quality because he had only one small imperfection.

I also do understand that just like in the research world or Martial Art there is no clear rule for the one at the top. But at least there is some very strict formation and understanding you must have at the begginer level. You know that a Master in martial Art will not miss a strike use by beginner. I'm not so shure about this in the discus world.

Finaly Larry,
I'm working with expert in many area and I can make a distinction between the so call expert and the true expert by ther ability to clear out fact. True expert have the ability to give you clear answer event if it's not what you whant to ear and to make it easy to understand. When thing start to be mistical they are not comming from expert. They are just not understand yet.

[AmazonRainbows]

Sorry, I know this is limited to SPONSORS but just my 2 cents :)

take care,
Sandeep

Sandeep i was first asking for sponsor only because I was searching for a clear answer about the rules and not looking at the buyer expectation but I think that now this thread is welcome to everyone ;)

[AmazonRainbows]

When I first saw this title I thought we were talking about a new medicine.:D
Hello Dave,

I have dyslexia and it's not going better with the age. I realise the miss inversing the A and R to late and there is no way to make correction in the title :( I read at least two time my post and some time as many as 5 times but still can't catch everything :(

[AmazonRainbows]

Pierre,

Let me pose the question back at you. What are you looking for when you purchase Discus? I would think it would be a quality fish at a reasonable price. I see your profile lists you with 14 discus. How did you come about these fish? Did you IM or Email or call the seller? Or was it a combination. The point I'm making is you need to do your homework.

You need to prequalify the seller first. I buy fish and I sell fish so I see both sides. If you contact me I will ask a ton of questions to see where you are at as far as the hobby. I will ask for info on your tank, your parameters, and the care you intend to give before we go any farther.

If possible you should visit a breeder or seller and hand pick the stock. If you can't, ask for pics of the fish. If you don't receive them, look somewhere else. Give time to the person to take the photos.

Jack

Hello Jack,

You are right I need to do some homeworks. But when I ask for picture or what I should expect from my purchase until now almost all of the time I ask I have no reply to those e-mail. I just find out that A grade and so on just mean nothing and the best thing to do is to net the fish I purcahse. I can't say i'm not happy with my purchase but I quickly find out they where a lap betwen my expectation and the grading system.

The reality is also the Disucs business is not mature as it is still growing fast. So I don't expect so much out of a standard until the market get to a point where telling the custommer the thrut will be an advantage. When all fish are gone whit nothing left in a fast time there is no need for the seller to make an effort selling the fish to the most demanding buyer.

[Tony_S]

Pierre

This thread has gone in the exact direction it ALWAYS goes...COMPLETE confusion! The reason being....there is no 'system'...no true 'standards' no TRUELY SPECIFIC 'rules' that exist! PERIOD! Ask 10 hobbiest, you'll get 10 different answers. Ask 10 breeders/importers, you'll get 10 MORE answers.
It'll leave your head spinning!
At this stage unfortunately, the only thing that'll answer your questions is experience IMO. Thats one of the reasons the 'UNIVERSITY' was created...to lessen the need for an experienced eye, to SHORTEN the learning curve....To set SOME sort of standard. There's alot of work yet to be done there though....but its a start.
One of the major problems in learning about quality IMO....is the reluctance of experienced members(myself included) to express, and explain thier opinions when it comes to low quality discus posted on this board.
Its happened time and time again(right now for example)...someone posts pictures of low quality discus, or worse yet CULLS....and less experienced experienced hobbiests follow along and RAVE about how NICE they are. Most of the EXPERIENCED and KNOWLEDGABLE members are reluctant to jump in and disagree even when ASKED!! Some have in the past, including myself....and it causes everything from hard feelings to an outright forum BRAWL. So....then all you get to read is 'nice' comments on a BROAD range of quality. It makes it nearly impossible for the 'newbie' to grasp onto anything.
As I said....hopefully as the university evolves, and a decent rating 'system' is put into place...we can set SOME kind of standards and make it easier to learn.

Tony

[brewmaster15]

I agree 100% with Tony Here!:)

I'll also be frank and honest , Everytime I see this topic in a thread it burns me up. For years I have have dealt with the problems surrounding this issue from a forum management side.... This topic has come up thousands of time.... either its a novice asking for information, a buyer getting burned by a seller for junk discus its always the same..

We created the University to address this issue and have made some tremendous headway. This is thanks to a few very dedicated volunteers.... John nicholson, Willie Loh, Paul Butler, Ryan Hall, shin-shin aka Mat. Without them we'd still be in limbo. What irritates me most about this topic is the lack of response in addressing it .. My partner Ryan and I gave you all the opportunity to address this in a lasting fashion... a Way to fix a problem everyone sees and does not Try to fix. ..and instead of doing that what gets done...Nothing. When I asked for help from the experienced in this community... I got zip..nada, nothing... except for a handful of volunteers....I even pm'd people for help...nothing...

I can't fix this on my own..., and the guys in the university can't... It takes involvement by those that understand these issues...Truth is most are either too busy to get involved and help., too lazy, don't care, or are afraid that god forbid they criticize or say something bad about other sellers fish and then the political engines of revenge come after them. ( sorry... no sympathy there...I understand the problem well...but don't buy the excuse)

I admire those that are involved in this in the university...instead of just talking they are trying to fix a problem they see. I just wish others would do the same...we all reap the benefits of a standardized grading system thats applicable to everyone, not just competition standards...I'd like to see all those people out with years of experience step up to the plate and do something about it instead of whine and moan as has been the extent of involvement by most.

So though I have asked before many many times... We can still use experienced discus hobbyists and sellers in the university...If you want a challenge and a chance to help this hobby, this is your chance.

Thanks,
al

ps..

sorry for the tone...but This topics frustrates me so much that I'd pull my hair out over it...if I had any!

[meltinonesmouth]

AMEN!!!

Pierre

This thread has gone in the exact direction it ALWAYS goes...COMPLETE confusion! The reason being....there is no 'system'...no true 'standards' no TRUELY SPECIFIC 'rules' that exist! PERIOD! Ask 10 hobbiest, you'll get 10 different answers. Ask 10 breeders/importers, you'll get 10 MORE answers.
It'll leave your head spinning!
At this stage unfortunately, the only thing that'll answer your questions is experience IMO. Thats one of the reasons the 'UNIVERSITY' was created...to lessen the need for an experienced eye, to SHORTEN the learning curve....To set SOME sort of standard. There's alot of work yet to be done there though....but its a start.
One of the major problems in learning about quality IMO....is the reluctance of experienced members(myself included) to express, and explain thier opinions when it comes to low quality discus posted on this board.
Its happened time and time again(right now for example)...someone posts pictures of low quality discus, or worse yet CULLS....and less experienced experienced hobbiests follow along and RAVE about how NICE they are. Most of the EXPERIENCED and KNOWLEDGABLE members are reluctant to jump in and disagree even when ASKED!! Some have in the past, including myself....and it causes everything from hard feelings to an outright forum BRAWL. So....then all you get to read is 'nice' comments on a BROAD range of quality. It makes it nearly impossible for the 'newbie' to grasp onto anything.
As I said....hopefully as the university evolves, and a decent rating 'system' is put into place...we can set SOME kind of standards and make it easier to learn.

Tony

[Elcid]

Hi All:

I know this is a confusing topic for the new buyer and a frustrating one for the seller. But, just because there is confusion and frustration does not mean that we should not discuss it in an open forum or be told by the experts that we should learn in the University and thereby become an educated buyer.

Few things I've learned:

(1) There is always a better grade than the one you are buying.
(2) The re-seller does not grade fishes he or she only sells them at the grade at which he or she has purchased them.
(3) Grading is based the sellers personal expections of what the fish might become given ideal situation that the buyer is expected to maintain.
(4) You cannot judge the grade based on some standard shape, color, eye size etc because for each strain the standards are different.
(5) Difficult to get, highly valued strains are graded more generously than those that are in surplus.
(6) The grade of discus is generally enhanced by use of color feeding, hormones, special diet, water conditions, use of antibiotics, and other "trade secret" formulations that the buyer is not able to duplicate.
(7) Never purchase any discus from some unknown seller regardless of what grade they claim it to be.
(8) The sponsors are our friends, our chances of getting better grade fish from them is much higher than anyone who claims to have AAAA grade discus.


Okay, there is more but I have to RUN :)

Please, no one take offense!

take care,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

(1) There is always a better grade than the one you are buying.

I AGREE



(2) The re-seller does not grade fishes he or she only sells them at the grade at which he or she has purchased them.

I AGREE but he can regrade the discus according to this forum grading system. So every sponsor would be on the same level.



(3) Grading is based the sellers personal expections of what the fish might become given ideal situation that the buyer is expected to maintain.

I AGREE AND DISAGREE - You should not pay for seller expectation but for what you actually purchase.



(4) You cannot judge the grade based on some standard shape, color, eye size etc because for each strain the standards are different.

I TOTALY DISAGREE - Some strain would just never have AA or A grade but it would be normal.



(5) Difficult to get, highly valued strains are graded more generously than those that are in surplus.

HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT IT YET



(6) The grade of discus is generally enhanced by use of color feeding, hormones, special diet, water conditions, use of antibiotics, and other "trade secret" formulations that the buyer is not able to duplicate.

PROPABLY -But forum member can show what ther purchase look after a while. This can help buyer see if fish are getting better or worse.



(7) Never purchase any discus from some unknown seller regardless of what grade they claim it to be.

??? - Every body have to start somewhere.



(8) The sponsors are our friends, our chances of getting better grade fish from them is much higher than anyone who claims to have AAAA grade discus.

I TOTALY AGREE THAT SPONSOR ARE OUR FRIEND. I know they also take risk and sometime loosing money on certain transaction. Without them we would end up whit a lot of crap and import on a user base is not sometime to think about.

[nolefan]

Amazonrainbows,
Can you post pics of all your new fish that you just received?
How long have you been in the hobby? how do you judge the quality of discus?


Lee

[AmazonRainbows]

Hello Nolefan,

Yes I will post picture of all fish I have just received as soon as I can. I've been in the hobby for 4 months.

Start in Discus world dec. 30 2005.

I judge the quality of the Discus by the healt, the shape & pattern. I first check out what buyer get on this site and other site. Then I compare mine to equivalent purchase. Compare same strain, size, category & price.

[nolefan]

My lss from gold mountain discus 6inch.AA grade

Lee

[AmazonRainbows]

nolefan,

I would not make this post about the fish I just received. This is not my first intention and I would like to put this out of this thread. I make this post about the meaning and standard of Discus Grading. However I will open another thread to talk about the Discus I just received. I'm totaly open to everyone to comment my purcahse. No body posses the thrue but I do believe in commun sense.

Also I would like to add that Frank has been a gentleman and he manage to make me 100% satisfied about the transaction.

[nolefan]

Looks very similar to the pic of your second pic of your lss.

Lee

[AmazonRainbows]

Nolefan,

Can you post a picture in another thread please? We could make a comparaison.

@+

[AmazonRainbows]

My lss from gold mountain discus 6inch.AA grade

Lee

Now that you post:

This is the one I received. Are you ready to do an exchange? I will at 200%.

[nolefan]

What size is yours ? Moved thread to Sponsor section like you asked.

Lee

[Tony_S]

(1) There is always a better grade than the one you are buying.

True....and there's no such thing as a 'Perfect' discus.....



(2) The re-seller does not grade fishes he or she only sells them at the grade at which he or she has purchased them.

While this MAY be true (or should be) in the Simply sponsor world, its DEFINATELY not true when it comes to 'other' less scrupulous sellers.
Some importers will tell outright, blatant lies to get rid of a tank of discus.



(3) Grading is based the sellers personal expections of what the fish might become given ideal situation that the buyer is expected to maintain.


If your dealing with an honest, experienced 'BREEDER' this is true. Less so with an experienced 'importer'....and purely guess work for a rookie 'importer'



(4) You cannot judge the grade based on some standard shape, color, eye size etc because for each strain the standards are different.

100% disagree! Why would(or should) a Red Turk be graded differently on shape, eye size & proportion, than a Leopard? Or a Blue Diamond?
Keep in mind we're not talking 'highfin' or 'highbody' discus....A 'standard' discus should have a 'STANDARD' shape to be compared to, and judged by.



(5) Difficult to get, highly valued strains are graded more generously than those that are in surplus.

True....and thats a damn shame.



(6) The grade of discus is generally enhanced by use of color feeding, hormones, special diet, water conditions, use of antibiotics, and other "trade secret" formulations that the buyer is not able to duplicate.

For high end strains, I would agree with you. For low end, not true...but there are always exceptions.



(7) Never purchase any discus from some unknown seller regardless of what grade they claim it to be.

For someone new to the hobby, this is a good rule to follow.



(8) The sponsors are our friends, our chances of getting better grade fish from them is much higher than anyone who claims to have AAAA grade discus.

I agree 100%


Tony

[Tony_S]

What size is yours ?



uhhhh.......BIG! VERY BIG!! :shocked2:

Tony:D

[Timbo]

uhhhh.......BIG! VERY BIG!! :shocked2:

Tony:D

ok, most guys got a shlong, how come i got a shlort?

(go ahead AL, edit away:))

[brewmaster15]

Sandeep,


I know this is a confusing topic for the new buyer and a frustrating one for the seller. But, just because there is confusion and frustration does not mean that we should not discuss it in an open forum or be told by the experts that we should learn in the University and thereby become an educated buyer.

No one is telling you that you or anyone should learn it in the forum section designed to teach it...You may learn it any where you like or not all...the choice is yours. Personally when I want to learn something I use as many venues as I can... but hey , I fully realize that not everyone appreciates the university and what its potential is.

My point was that the solution to this problem is going to take more that a few members pointing out what they think, based on nothing more but what can best be called limited experiences in the whole scope of things.. Thats been done for decades and has accomplished nothing.

Sandeep you may not appreciate this forum and what we try to accomplish here...but we are trying to fix the problems associated with buying discus.. We have started the university to educate, we have a feedback system to rate sellers... we have Sponsors that are screened and held accountable.. You and everyone else have this to use for free. If you were involved in Discus a few years ago, you would see that the systems we have in place here are all moving us forward...my point was...they need participation to move the issues forward...I was not telling you that you or anyone had to learn in the University... You said , Please no one take Offense, well Offense was taken as I don't see your comment as necessary, and quite honestly was meant to give offense.

Let me ask you something Sandeep since you have such an interest in quality.... If a seller on this forum sold you sick or inferior fish, would you help your fellow hobbyists in their future purchases by leaving negative feedback?

-al

[Kindredspirit]

f your dealing with an honest, experienced 'BREEDER' this is true. Less so with an experienced 'importer'....and purely guess work for a rookie 'importer'


Okay I know that I am probably way out of my league here ~ but If I may chime in....

Tony ~ Should not people check out this site and SEE who is an experienced 'BREEDER' and apply common sense to what seasoned members are saying to us? It seems that people who know of which they speak TALK but then I see that some end up not following the advice given and purchase some where else! I mean I have not been here long and I do not know much but I DO KNOW where I would buy my discus from ~ and who I would not ~ I think....I hope...lol!




If a seller on this forum sold you sick or inferior fish, would you help your fellow hobbyists in their future purchases by leaving negative feedback?

Al ~ I know we should but I do not think I could cuz I would just contact YOU and have you fix it! J/k!! I think that Dan or Cary would have fixed any problems I would have had on a dime ~ IMO ~ and I have seen sellers/breeders make it right ~ I am sure that is not always the case ....and I always wondered ...if they make it right do we still post neg?


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[brewmaster15]

Marie,
People need to use the feedback system for both positive and negatives... The feedback is supposed to be based on the total experience ... bad fish do get sent by good sellers...it happens, problems arise. If a seller sends bad fish, its a negative..but if the seller is made aware of the issue , works with you, replaces the fish, or credit, and treats you correctly... I think thats a positive...and theres nothing wrong with stating that there were some issues and the seller worked with you to a resolution... To me, that says alot of about a sellers ethics.

hth,
al

[AmazonRainbows]

Tony ~ Should not people check out this site and SEE who is an experienced 'BREEDER' and apply common sense to what seasoned members are saying to us?


Marie ~ What is involve here is not to separate the good from the bad. It is more to have guide line as clear as possible that when a buyer expectation is not meet we can verify easily why and if it's justify. Both side will be winner but only if buyer who purchase are ready to tell what they thruly think and maybe get in fault if they are wrong.

If you look carefully you will see no bad comment on the forum. Do you realy think everybody is happy of every transaction on both side?

In a certain way seller are at the merci of buyer who will dismiss them if they are not happy about the purchase. On the other side for many reasons some buyer may not feel confortable saying they are not happy about ther purschase. This site is very friendly and this may stop some buyer to realy tell what they think fearing being see like bad customer.

We need some guide line so that both side know what to expect out of a transaction and feel free to comment without the fear to be point out.

This will also help every buyer to compare his/her fish with other forum member in a thruly objectif way without the fear of hurting buyer/seller relation ship.

[AmazonRainbows]

Marie,
People need to use the feedback system for both positive and negatives... The feedback is supposed to be based on the total experience ... bad fish do get sent by good sellers...it happens, problems arise. If a seller sends bad fish, its a negative..but if the seller is made aware of the issue , works with you, replaces the fish, or credit, and treats you correctly... I think thats a positive...and theres nothing wrong with stating that there were some issues and the seller worked with you to a resolution... To me, that says alot of about a sellers ethics.

hth,
al

200% / 100% agree with Al. Mistake can happend and it does happend to everyone who are trying to do ther best. (Only poeple who are doing nothing make no mistake). The real thing is how both side handle the situation when something goes wrong.

[brewmaster15]

Pierre,

If you look carefully you will see no bad comment on the forum. Do you realy think everybody is happy of every transaction on both side?

In a certain way seller are at the merci of buyer who will dismiss them if they are not happy about the purchase. On the other side for many reasons some buyer may not feel confortable saying they are not happy about ther purschase. This site is very friendly and this may stop some buyer to realy tell what they think fearing being see like bad customer.

We need some guide line so that both side know what to expect out of a transaction and feel free to comment without the fear to be point out.


That system is already in place and working..The Itrader feedback system gives you the venue to post your experiences... both the seller and the buyer. But if you won't be honest and use it, whose fault is it? all the rules and guidelines won't change that.

One other note...so far ths feedback system, which is still young, has had negative feedbacks and A sponsor was ultimately removed because of what that feedback started in terms of discussions between the sites owners and the seller...


-al

[AmazonRainbows]

Al,

I admit I do not have all the knowledge you and many other forum member have about this site. Thanks to make the correction. But I think there is a little bit of thrute saying there must be buyers & sellers not happy about some transactions issue but not talking about it.

As a teacher I have learn that when something is not clear, it will go wrong right there.

[Elcid]

Hi Al:

There isn't time. Most of us, especially newcomers want fish and now. I want discus that 6 months or 1 year down the road don't turn out to be unwanted discus that I don't know what to do with; should I cull them?, should I sell them? should I donate them to the petshop?. What will be the motivation to do waterchange and make beefheart mix for fish that I'm unhappy with? No Al, I'm not interested in what Quality is not in the absolute sense, I'm interested in getting fish that will meet my expectations in the hobby. I want to be happy with every single fish in my tank and don't want any that I'm unhappy with.

You asked me if I would leave negative feedback for a sponsor. No, Al, I would never leave a negative feedback. The goal is always to work out what I want from a seller and to make sure I get that. If there is a problem in working it out with the seller I won't buy from him or her again. I do have some advises for newcomers that I share, it's upto them to make use of it or disregard it as is the perogative of any individual on this forum.

Al, it's great to see the buyer feedback area and the discus university and I am sure that they will provide a valuable tool for someone who hasn't read any books or is completely new to the hobby. But for those of us who are already a bit down the road I think we need answers sooner than the timeline in which these tools will be completed. You should not take offense. What you are trying to accomplish is admirable and valuable but like you say yourself it is a difficult task and without much support.

Al, I'm not saying that what you are trying to do should not be supported and ppl who are experienced in the hobby should not devote time to it. I just would like to discus some things freely on the boards without offending you or the sponsors. Nowadays I find it hard to post because I think I might offend someone or you. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I want to share my experiences in the hobby and learn for others on the forum. This is a hobby for me. It should be an enjoyable one :)

take care,
Sandeep

[brewmaster15]

Pierre,
I agree that some will not post negative feedback on the transaction....But again...if you give someone the tools and they chose not to use them for whatever reasons they have...There is nothing more that I or this community can do. Feedback systems are not a guarantee , but they are one more thing we try to use to see that people get good discus.

Sandeep,

If you don't want to offend people, then you should read what you post think about if it would offend people..Sometimes we write things to sting with intent, and sometimes we do so without realizing it...You may want to put yourself in someone elses shoes before you make a post that might be offending.


There isn't time. Most of us, especially newcomers want fish and now. I want discus that 6 months or 1 year down the road don't turn out to be unwanted discus that I don't know what to do with; should I cull them?, should I sell them? should I donate them to the petshop?. What will be the motivation to do waterchange and make beefheart mix for fish that I'm unhappy with? I understand this. Let me ask you something...have you ever Bred a discus and raised Discus fry to adult? My reason for asking is because if you did, you would understand that from each group of fry bred, theres always fish that will not meet your expectations. Breeders of those fish you are buying deal with that and consumers do as well. Some fish do great and then just don't.. Theres no way a seller can provide you with fish that will be 100% all the time what you expect ....Its not possible because there are so many factors involved...


If I buy 10 2" fish from the best of the best sellers...I won't wind up with 10 adults that meet my expections . but I may get 5 that do... for someone else they might get 100%... The problem is the "expections" are subjection....we need guidelines that people can use to buy and sell discus that help minimize that subjectiveness... thats not going to come out of one or 100 threads on this board or elsewhere..Its going to take time and dedication by many people with a common focus...I have no way of telling if the university will achieve this...but we are trying.


Sometimes there is no way to shorten an education taught by practical experience...and time.

-al

[AmazonRainbows]

Pierre,
I agree that some will not post negative feedback on the transaction....But again...if you give someone the tools and they chose not to use them for whatever reasons they have...There is nothing more that I or this community can do. Feedback systems are not a guarantee , but they are one more thing we try to use to see that people get good discus.

AL,

Part of the problem is the feedback system is all or nothing. Rating the transaciton on many aspect from 1 to 5 would help a lot more. I may be partialy satisfied about a fish but very satisfied about the way seller has ship, reply to my e-mail, etc... It's hard to give a negative feedback when one part of the transaction fail. It could also be a tools to help the seller to track where he need to improve to increase his sales.
Another thing will be to rate how saler reply to your question even if sale did not take place. Let's say that if a seller is not giving interest in your question you will drop it but this will not show anywhere because no transaction will never be involve. This could help see if a seller is selling only to newbie or to experienced buyer. This is IMO a good information to know.

[brewmaster15]

Pierre,
Ebay is multi-billion dollar auction site and it uses a system just like ours... I understand what you are interested in but I can't provide it.... the software we use now was bought by us for the website and works within our forums software constraints...to do what you are asking would require paying for special software to be written for the forum.

The feedback system is not all or nothing... Its positive, neutral, or negative.... and most people just look at the percents of each given and not all the details. In addition to that rating system you have the ability to use text to describe the transaction..


here you go...hypothetical rating for a positive that could have been better

"On a scale of 1- 10. Fish 10, communication 8, shipping 7, Overall would buy again" I don;t know what else I can do for everyone in this.


Another thing will be to rate how saler reply to your question even if sale did not take place. Let's say that if a seller is not giving interest in your question you will drop it but this will not show anywhere because no transaction will never be involve. -- I can't see it being fair to judge and rate someone by how they deal with you before the sale... This is a sales feedback system...not a personality test... If you don;t get treated as you feel you should when you make an inquiry... you move on as obviously the seller doesn't need the business.

Theres a saying...give someone a hand and they'll want a whole arm!:) we gave you all a very good hand...its natural to want more, but how much is really reasonable, how much is doable, and how much benefit is really the actual cost and work..... as forum owner... Thats my biggest issue with any of these projects.


-al

[Elcid]

Okay, continuing with sharing my experience about discus grading:

(9) One famous breeder told me that almost 100% of his discus are saleable high quality discus. So always make sure you buy discus from a known reputable breeder or his or her re-seller rather than from a re-seller who does not know who's discus he's selling. This way you can be sure to get better grade fish.

(10) Ask questions to the seller and the breeder you get discus from. They are only too happy to answer. They love to email with their customers.

(11) Target some breeders who's strains you like. Email them, call them, etc. Even if at first you don't get the fish you want, eventually, once you have established a relationship with them you will get better grade discus.

(12) Don't be a happy customer, How's the breeder/reseller supposed to know if you don't complain. There is a good way to complain and a bad way to complain, learn the difference. With enough complaining you will get better discus.

(13) Make friends with the breeder/re-seller. So that they will allow you to visit them when new spawns are hatched or new shipment arrive, cherry picking is the best way to get better grade discus.

(14) Buying discus is not like buying on Ebay, it's always best to buy from ONE SELLER, only!

HTH,
Sandeep

[Tony_S]

Okay I know that I am probably way out of my league here ~ but If I may chime in....


Tony ~ Should not people check out this site and SEE who is an experienced 'BREEDER' and apply common sense to what seasoned members are saying to us? It seems that people who know of which they speak TALK but then I see that some end up not following the advice given and purchase some where else! I mean I have not been here long and I do not know much but I DO KNOW where I would buy my discus from ~ and who I would not ~ I think....I hope...lol!





Marie....Im not really sure you understood what I was saying here...





(3) Grading is based the sellers personal expections of what the fish might become given ideal situation that the buyer is expected to maintain.





If your dealing with an honest, experienced 'BREEDER' this is true. Less so with an experienced 'importer'....and purely guess work for a rookie 'importer'



Let me try and give a more detailed 'opinion' on Elcid's statement.



I agree with him IF a person is dealing with an experienced breeder such as......lets say "The Master" Cary of Great lakes discus. He KNOWS his fish PERSONALLY. He's grown the fry out, he KNOWS EXACTLY what to expect from his fry. If he tells someone the discus are going to grow out( under optimal conditions) to be winners....its a safe bet they will.


If that same person deals with an experienced Importer, that person is trusting that the importer he/she is dealing with has a good relationships and communications with OTHER breeders and/or distributors. So when the experienced importer tells the buyer that the discus will grow out to be winners....its a good chance they will....but MORE of a gamble.


The person who deals with a rookie importer takes even more of a chance, because often times the 'rookie' importer doesnt have the communication...or trust in place with distributors. He can (and often does) recieve grade 'a' fish on the first shipment....and recieve garbage on the second.....Who's going to get the fish from the second shipment?


you'd be amazed at the lies, deception and secretiveness that goes on behind drawn shades in respect to breeding, importing, distributing, etc.



As for new members asking experienced members, or listening to experienced members advise....overall, it doesnt happen. New members can read time and time again not to buy from an LFS....then head straight to the lfs the next day. The 'common sense' you mention....isnt all that common.


Tony

[Kindredspirit]

Probably not Tony ~


Itz okay ~


M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[lhforbes12]

Okay I know that I am probably way out of my league here ~ but If I may chime in....

Tony ~ Should not people check out this site and SEE who is an experienced 'BREEDER' and apply common sense to what seasoned members are saying to us? It seems that people who know of which they speak TALK but then I see that some end up not following the advice given and purchase some where else! I mean I have not been here long and I do not know much but I DO KNOW where I would buy my discus from ~ and who I would not ~ I think....I hope...lol!





Al ~ I know we should but I do not think I could cuz I would just contact YOU and have you fix it! J/k!! I think that Dan or Cary would have fixed any problems I would have had on a dime ~ IMO ~ and I have seen sellers/breeders make it right ~ I am sure that is not always the case ....and I always wondered ...if they make it right do we still post neg?


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif


And there is the problem
I think this is how most folks truly feel, but this is exactly why IMHO the I-trader system does not work. When you go to I-Trader and see that virtually everyone is rated at 100% I, for one, find that it is worthless. It tells me absolutely nothing as a buyer, so why would I even look there? In private conversations with Al I know that this is somewhat of a problem for him too. But, as Al told me, what can he do about it if no one is willing to "tell it like it is". I don't fault you Marie, actually I applaud you, since you are being honest.
Unless more people can be as honest as Marie just was, the system will never work IMHO.

Larry

[Elcid]

Hi Al:

I have raised discus from fry to adult before and you are right that some will just not meet the grade. Generally, I knew which would and which would not though. I could easily pick out 10 fish out of a batch that I could be almost certain they would be exceptional by 1" size. I don't think I was very clever to pick them out. A few just grow so fast and have shapely figures, how can you not tell they will turn out to be better than the rest?

We all have different goals. I told you mine earlier. Just as you are facing some difficulties in your goals in the Discus University, I'm facing some difficulties getting the quality of fish I'm happy with. But, this does not mean we should give up. We have to fight to get what we want. I know each time I fought I got closer to my goal. Failure isn't an acceptable end we have to try every way possible, we have to set the standard high, then we can have an acceptable conclusion.

HTH,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

It may be a little too late to ask but is there in this site a list about the questions to ask when doing a purchase? A basic list with many points to verify to help reduce the risk of missunderstood and deception.

[Kindredspirit]

And there is the problem
I think this is how most folks truly feel, but this is exactly why IMHO the I-trader system does not work. When you go to I-Trader and see that virtually everyone is rated at 100% I, for one, find that it is worthless. It tells me absolutely nothing as a buyer, so why would I even look there? In private conversations with Al I know that this is somewhat of a problem for him too. But, as Al told me, what can he do about it if no one is willing to "tell it like it is". I don't fault you Marie, actually I applaud you, since you are being honest.
Unless more people can be as honest as Marie just was, the system will never work IMHO.

Larry


I am the problem ~ thanks Larry ~:( It doesnt work because ....I know that the breeders I get my fish from wld always make it right? So..I guess that I shld have posted in I-Trader no matter of the out come ....

I always forget to do that ~ I guess that people see what I have and that speaks a thousand words ~ and from whence they came.....



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[AmazonRainbows]

Al,

Other then the member who have been banned, is there any sponsors or buyers who get a negative quote until now?

[AmazonRainbows]

I am the problem ~ thanks Larry ~:( It doesnt work because ....I know that the breeders I get my fish from wld always make it right? So..I guess that I shld have posted in I-Trader no matter of the out come ....


Marie ~ For many reasons some poeples are harder to satisfied then other. Just because you are satisfied whit the arrangement doesn't mean I will be. For me this is just can be taked as a reference. Please don't think it's because of you ;)

[Kindredspirit]

aww...Thanks Amazon! I was only teasing Larry ~


I think I will however..... take my ball and mitt and go home now and leave this topic to those who know of which they speak~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[brewmaster15]

Pierre,
Its was a sponsor that got a negative feedback...and is no longer a sponsor.



Doesn't everyone thing its being hypocritical to moan and groan about the feedback system not working because no one posts negatives when they arise...and yet be some of those people that don't post them?

People continually complain about this issue, but I never see anyone with practical ways to solve it....I have always tried to follow a motto "that problems should be fixed by those that see them" ...I have tried repeatedly here to do that, thru the university, the feedback systems , the sponsorships.... and you know what...I don't know what else I can try. I have always left my door open for discussion, but I'd like to hear some proposed solutions instead just complaints.

I can give you all the tools in the world.. but if you won't use them....I see no point in wasting my time further...I feel the systems in place here are very useful in helping solve this problem...

I also think that its each persons responsibility to learn as much as they can , and to demand fish that meet their expectations...but it needs to be discussed before you get the fish, not after..Tell the seller exactly what you expect...with examples if you can..

Buyer..beware, and buyer be aware!

-al


-al

[AmazonRainbows]

Pierre,
Its was a sponsor that got a negative feedback...and is no longer a sponsor.

Doesn't everyone thing its being hypocritical to moan and groan about the feedback system not working because no one posts negatives when they arise...and yet be some of those people that don't post them?

-al

Al,

I'm not trying to drive you crazy ;)

There is not only negative things about the rating system. In some case just to know they will be rate (sellers/buyers) will act a lot more respectfull and try to work out thing a lot more. So just for this aspect even if there is no negative feed back the system does already 50% of the work. I know it's frustrating for you seing people telling you the feedback system does not work but only one member getting bad feedack of all transactions is an amazing rate of sucessful transaction. I guess everybody on this site are very perfect.

Also I can't tell you why but everytime I go in the university section I feel that it's a lot repelling. Don't know why and if it's only my feeling but it's very hard for me to go there.

I have an idea but I need to think a little bit about it. Let's say you open a evalutating section where buyer can tell what they think about ther purchase and get reply from folk. This being done in a friendly way. It may help getting information to work with right now so that everyone can get immediate benefice. But I think you see what it imply. If a buyer can not explain and show is case on the site without the seller agreement then how can we go foward to see and learn from the transaction going on on this site? I don't think about a place where buyers/sellers would go down on each (and I think that's easy to see) but a place where everybody could share and compare on ther transaction. Is this would be a bad thing to do? I don't think because the one already burn do post in private to tell what they think. This would just let both side the chance to show ther point and everybody would see where the work has to be done on both side.

I'm I wrong? Is there something I miss or didn't think about?

[AmazonRainbows]

I can give you all the tools in the world.. but if you won't use them....I see no point in wasting my time further...I feel the systems in place here are very useful in helping solve this problem...

-al

Al,

I don't need all the tool in the world. I just need the right tools. A screw driver is not realy helping when working with nails.

One bad things I expirement on eBay about raiting system is if you goes on a bad transaction and you give a negative feedback to the F?&*/$ you will also earn a negative feedback. So each time you try to help your community you are shotting at your feet. I wrote to ebay about this and they reply every hero has is scarf...

Well I do think no body whant's to get hurt for free.

[brewmaster15]

Pierre,


There is not only negative things about the rating system. In some case just to know they will be rate (sellers/buyers) will act a lot more respectfull and try to work out thing a lot more. So just for this aspect even if there is no negative feed back the system does already 50% of the work. I know it's frustrating for you seing people telling you the feedback system does not work but only one member getting bad feedack of all transactions is an amazing rate of sucessful transaction. I guess everybody on this site are very perfect.
. You are confusing me here...on the one hand you say it doesn't work and the other you say it makes the seller more respectful and try to work things out.... Thats what it should do!!! it makes a seller accountable in a public way.



Let's say you open a evalutating section where buyer can tell what they think about ther purchase and get reply from folk. This being done in a friendly way. It may help getting information to work with right now so that everyone can get immediate benefice. But I think you see what it imply. If a buyer can not explain and show is case on the site without the seller agreement then how can we go foward to see and learn from the transaction going on on this site? I don't think about a place where buyers/sellers would go you already have this..you can post in the sellers section and they can address you. These transactions are between you anmd the seller..not the site...and not my responsibility.

I want to help you and others Pierre, but what you are asking for is not my burden..I have done far more than most to address this issue... I think people need to realize that this sites systems are in place and do work when used... Any system you devise to address this issue will require buyers to come forward and be honest about their dealings.. if that is not done the system will fail.

I feel like I am beating my head against the wall here trying to explain this.

-al

[AmazonRainbows]

Al,

On another thread someone told me to do my own works before I do a purchase. I realy agree but it's not an easy task when you are a newbie and don't know what to ask. How about a list for things to check/ask when doing a purchase?

[pcsb23]

Al,

On another thread someone told me to do my own works before I do a purchase. I realy agree but it's not an easy task when you are a newbie and don't know what to ask. How about a list for things to check/ask when doing a purchase?

Pierre, forgive me jumping in. This may not answer all our check list issues, but it is a good start point
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=33300

Regards,

[AmazonRainbows]

Pierre, forgive me jumping in. This may not answer all our check list issues, but it is a good start point
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=33300

Regards,
Paul,

Everybody is very welcome to take part of this discusion. This is a public forum ;)

I just take a look at the list. I already have read this list before but here the main problem is this list is made for someone who is going to the LFS and/or someone in front of the tank who can observe the fish.

I'm more concerne about giving a tools to place an order in a distant exchange. A kind of check list about questions to ask.

[Elcid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elcid
(4) You cannot judge the grade based on some standard shape, color, eye size etc because for each strain the standards are different.


100% disagree! Why would(or should) a Red Turk be graded differently on shape, eye size & proportion, than a Leopard? Or a Blue Diamond?
Keep in mind we're not talking 'highfin' or 'highbody' discus....A 'standard' discus should have a 'STANDARD' shape to be compared to, and judged by.

Hi Tony:

Sorry for not replying to you earlier. Thanks so much for your comments on my points, I wish more people would do that. I want to explain my point further here by direct example

Last time I bought fish I got some SSS from David Lim. When I saw those fish I had NO INTENSION of buying them. They were horrible shape, big eye, short fin. Mary wanted $200 for them and they were only 2" size, maybe 2 1/2" rounded up including the tail :) These were purchased by Mary as A grade SSS. As I was going through my SHOCK AND HORROR routine :), Mary punched some numbers on her phone, "Hello, Sweetiepie, Sandeep is here buying some of your fish" :) So I talk to David Lim and tell him what's up with these fish, did you pack them yourself? Are you sure these are A grade? He explained to me that any fish that has been crossed with the Wild fish will not have good shape or tall body or high fins. That's the difference between his LSS and SSS. I breathed a little lighter as I was examing the BIG EYE and long body and still thinking to myself "AM I CRAZY OR WHAT" :)

Okay Tony, tell me is there really a Standard form? and if there is shouldn't it be the "Wild Form"? How big an eye should an RT have at 3" size vs. say an LSS or SSS or Blue Diamond, RSG, Leopard, Pigeon, Golden? Wild Brown, or Blue? I have yet to see an 18 eye discus (nine on each side on the vertical bar over the eye) but some say it exists? :)

Again, I want to say that depending on the strain the growth and shape and size of various atttributes of discus are different and thusly require different standard by which to measure particularily at the small size at which we purchase them.


thanks,
Sandeep

[Tony_S]

I breathed a little lighter as I was examing the BIG EYE and long body and still thinking to myself "AM I CRAZY OR WHAT" :)

If you payed 200 bucks for a 2" fish with a long body and big eye's...Id say so.



Okay Tony, tell me is there really a Standard form?

On a personal level, yes. On a public 'consumer' level NO....and thats a problem with me.



and if there is shouldn't it be the "Wild Form"?

The nicest wilds Ive seen conform to the same standards Ive personally set for domestics. So...YES.




How big an eye should an RT have at 3" size vs. say an LSS or SSS or Blue Diamond, RSG, Leopard, Pigeon, Golden? Wild Brown, or Blue?

They should all have a similar size eye at three inches....yes even wilds when we're speaking of quality.



I have yet to see an 18 eye discus (nine on each side on the vertical bar over the eye) but some say it exists? :)

Does that make it right....or attractive? Just as Ive seen an otherwise nice looking fish ruined by a large eye...Ive seen discus with eye's Ive considered TOO small in proportion to massive bodies.



Again, I want to say that depending on the strain the growth and shape and size of various atttributes of discus are different and thusly require different standard by which to measure particularily at the small size at which we purchase them.

I guess we'll just have to agree....to DISAGREE.

Tony

[Elcid]

Hi Tony:

Okay Tony, enough words, let's move on to pics :).....ALL PICS ARE of fish I've purchased from Simply Sponsors. BTW, just because I complain does not mean I don't have good relationship with Mary or David Lim. So please, no one take this as negative feedback. My feedback for them is positive! :p

3" A GRADE LSS valued at $125.00

[Elcid]

2 1/2" A GRADE SSS valued at $200:

Sorry about the Lousy Pics Tony. I know I'm crazy but let me know what you think of these two fishes at their pictured size and value. Be brutal :) I can take it! :) Oh, BTW, I want to know WHY this second fish is more valuable than the 1st.

thanks,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Oh, BTW, I want to know WHY this second fish is more valuable than the 1st.


Elcid,

Just as a joke, it's because the seller was broke :p

[AmazonRainbows]

2 1/2" A GRADE SSS valued at $200:

Sorry about the Lousy Pics Tony. I know I'm crazy but let me know what you think of these two fishes at their pictured size and value. Be brutal :) I can take it! :) Oh, BTW, I want to know WHY this second fish is more valuable than the 1st.

thanks,
Sandeep

Elcid,

As I underestand you talk directly with the breeder who is well renamed in Discus world. But honestly, if seeing this fish in a LFS would you have spend this money on it?

[Tony_S]

Be brutal :) I can take it! :) Oh, BTW, I want to know WHY this second fish is more valuable than the 1st.


Im done playing your games Sandeep.....If youve got something to say that'll change my mind, SAY IT!

In other words, $$$$...or get off the pot...

Tony

[Elcid]

Okay Tony:

It's fine if ur done playing but I wasn't playing. It's not a game. Many ppl, new buyers and re-sellers waste lots of money on Asian discus only too be dissapointed when they receive the fish or as the fish develops.

In terms of Discus grade and what the buyer should expect I just want to say that you are wrong about Mary and others. They order based on some list of availability A Grade Crimson Spotted 3" $85, A Grade Scarlet Spotted $65, whatever you want to price it at the price is not that important. Then she makes her price list. The prices are set way before they see the fish. Just as we place our trust on the re-seller to send us what we feel an A grade Crimson Spotted aught to look like so do the re-seller on the breeder/exporter.

Grading at this size is marginal at best. It's really hard to say whether I will like fish # 1 or fish #2 when it is full adult, only time will tell. Actually a year later I do like fish # 2 more. Do I think either of them I should have paid as much as I did, NO :) The real lesson for me is don't buy any expensive fish from someone unless you know them very well even if they have a nice website or a sponser here :)

Good luck,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Elcid,

As I underestand you talk directly with the breeder who is well renamed in Discus world. But honestly, if seeing this fish in a LFS would you have spend this money on it?


Haha, I'm crazy but not that crazy! :), No way did I pay $200 for that fish :p Even if the mother was a champion and the father sleeps around ;) Just kidding! BTW, if that fish were in the LFS, it would be much more brightly colored and fully spotted and I would not be ready to pay anything for it! It's not worth anything if you have to flush it after a month in ur tank! I don't want to buy any 2" fish that is fully colored or fully spotted no matter how famous the breeder is!

take care,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Actually a year later I do like fish # 2 more. Do I think either of them I should have paid as much as I did, NO :)


Please Elcid,

Could you post a recent picture of the fish. I would realy love to see how both of them turn out.

Thank you

[AmazonRainbows]

Grading at this size is marginal at best. It's really hard to say whether I will like fish # 1 or fish #2 when it is full adult


So has I understand from nolefan and you here is what we should start with:

They only way you can be shure what a fish look like is to buy and adult fully developped. Other then than it's just base
on expection.

Q: Is grading should be apply to adult fish only?

[Elcid]

So has I understand from nolefan and you here is what we should start with:

They only way you can be shure what a fish look like is to buy and adult fully developped. Other then than it's just base
on expection.

Q: Is grading should be apply to adult fish only?

I don't know the answer to this really. I have bought fish as adult that look spectacular when I got them and a year later not so nice because I didn't color feed them and feed them all those special diets to keep their spotting up. There are are so many ways to tamper with the fish to make it look like those nolefan has got I hope to God that his fish aren't CR6ed, hormoned, etc. and that he can keep them well for many years. When you buy an adult fish you don't know it's history. Personally, I'm happiest with fish I have bought small size less than 2" and grew up to be better than I had expected than those I bought larger 4" fish thinking they will be great and turned out not to be.

HTH,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

I have bought fish as adult that look spectacular when I got them and a year later not so nice because I didn't color feed them and feed them all those special diets to keep their spotting up.

Elcid,

The first thing I saw is we are trying to use a grading system for two different things witch in my point of view has no chance to work. young Fish could be quote on Expectation Grade like bottom, midle & top of ther spaw or batch. THis would be more honest.

Then we could use B, A & AA grade for fully developped adult fish. I do understand that fish are changing in color once in our tank, but the diet have nothing to do with the grade if grading adult fish is base on ther body shape & pattern. Im I wrong here?

[Elcid]

Elcid,

The first thing I saw is we are trying to use a grading system for two different things witch in my point of view has no chance to work. young Fish could be quote on Expectation Grade like bottom, midle & top of ther spaw or batch. THis would be more honest.

Then we could use B, A & AA grade for fully developped adult fish. I do understand that fish are changing in color once in our tank, but the diet have nothing to do with the grade if grading adult fish is base on ther body shape & pattern. Im I wrong here?

Actually you have the wrong approach. Forget grading and what you should expect :) Make friends with someone who has nice fish. They are easy to please, go to the ACA and buy all the breeders beer and deep fried calamari rings :) and just ask them for some nice fish! U'll be surprised how much nicer your discus turn out to be, better than any graded discus! Ur never going to get any good fish if you call the re-seller breeder dishonest! Forget about it!

HTH,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Actually you have to wrong approach. Forget grading and what you should expect :) Make friends with someone who has nice fish. They are easy to please, go to the ACA and buy all the breeders beer and deep fried calamari rings :) and just ask them for some nice fish! U'll be surprised how much nicer your discus turn out to be, better than any graded discus!

HTH,
Sandeep

100% agree but not every body can do that :thumbsup:

Also this is not helping in making comparaison between fish. We go back to square one.

[Tony_S]

It's fine if ur done playing but I wasn't playing.

Sure you were...its your style.



It's not a game.

I realize that Sandeep.



Many ppl, new buyers and re-sellers waste lots of money on Asian discus only too be dissapointed when they receive the fish or as the fish develops.

Many people waste money on AMERICAN, GERMAN, CANADIAN AND SOUTH AMERICAN discus as well. Dont make this about ASIAN discus!!!
Thats NOT what this thread is about!!!


In terms of Discus grade and what the buyer should expect I just want to say that you are wrong about Mary and others.

I didnt say a damn word about "Mary and others"!
There you go... playing your 'games' again...


Just as we place our trust on the re-seller to send us what we feel an A grade Crimson Spotted aught to look like so do the re-seller on the breeder/exporter.

As I ALREADY stated in an earlier post....THATS WHY you want to deal with an importer(if you so choose) who has a VERY GOOD relationship and good communication with the breeder they deal with. But even then, there's still NO GUARANTEE!



Grading at this size is marginal at best.

I dont agree with you...Grading discus at 3" for a SHOW WINNER is marginal.
Grading discus at 3" for a future DAMN NICE FISH isnt.



Do I think either of them I should have paid as much as I did, NO :)

HEY!! WE AGREE ON SOMETHING!!




The real lesson for me is don't buy any expensive fish from someone unless you know them very well even if they have a nice website or a sponser here :)


Knowing someone very well is no guarantee of anything either. Thats why education and sound judgement are so important.
That way you can make EDUCATED, SOUND decisions for yourself....and have NO ONE to BLAME but YOURSELF for making FOOLISH PURCHASES.


Tony

[Elcid]

100% agree but not every body can do that :thumbsup:

Also this is not helping in making comparaison between fish. We go back to square one.

Okay, here's the problem. Breeders don't raise 1 batch at a time. David Lim told me he spawns 20,000 fish a month in 100 tanks. So each tank must be heavily crowded and contain fish of many batches all of different ages. So now that they are all mixed how do you figure out which is the top 10% of the batch?

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Hi Tony:

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry you fell that way. I was just reacting to your idea that Mary wanted a high price for the fish because she was going bankrupt. I humbly want to disagree with you. I don't know what Al editied out but you can PM it to me.

You can call my post playing if you want, but just remember that a hobby is necessarily a hobby and a business is necessarily a business.

take care,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Okay, here's the problem. Breeders don't raise 1 batch at a time. David Lim told me he spawns 20,000 fish a month in 100 tanks. So each tank must be heavily crowded and contain fish of many batches all of different ages. So now that they are all mixed how do you figure out which is the top 10% of the batch?

Batch can be lot. This is why it's not clear as a grade.

Like in college. They don't give the score base on absolute knowledge, they divide the class with bottom one, middle one and top one. So a top one of one year could be a middle in the next year. This is helping in knowing you will get the best out of what's growing up not make you bielieave you buying champion ship AA grade. I think it's a more honest approche. SO event if they mix 1000 spaw you can still have bottom one, midle one and top one. You just know witch part of the batch your buying. Don't forget grading is a fault at small size. It's only expection and even the best breeder can't garantee what the fish look's like when becoming adult.

As I see they breeder make shure everything will be mix up...

[Elcid]

Batch can be lot. This is why it's not clear as a grade.

Like in college. They don't give the score base on absolute knowledge, they divide the class with bottom one, middle one and top one. So a top one of one year could be a middle in the next year. This is helping in knowing you will get the best out of what's growing up not make you bielieave you buying champion ship AA grade. I think it's a more honest approche. SO event if they mix 1000 spaw you can still have bottom one, midle one and top one. You just know witch part of the batch your buying. Don't forget grading is a fault at small size. It's only expection and even the best breeder can't garantee what the fish look's like when becoming adult.

As I see they breeder make shure everything will be mix up...

You might be right if ur looking at college students but how do you divide at kindergarden?

[AmazonRainbows]

You might be right if ur looking at college students but how do you divide at kindergarden?

Elcid,

IF it's possible for colledge student, for wine made in everypart of the world from many different vine, Why is this so hard to do for fish?

I mean whatever the way they host your fish, when fish are ready to sold if breeder can tell you what they will look like (like they affirm grading small one) why can't they see the bottom one, middle one and best one out of the current selling batch?

[Elcid]

Batch can be lot. This is why it's not clear as a grade.

Like in college. They don't give the score base on absolute knowledge, they divide the class with bottom one, middle one and top one. So a top one of one year could be a middle in the next year. This is helping in knowing you will get the best out of what's growing up not make you bielieave you buying champion ship AA grade. I think it's a more honest approche. SO event if they mix 1000 spaw you can still have bottom one, midle one and top one. You just know witch part of the batch your buying. Don't forget grading is a fault at small size. It's only expection and even the best breeder can't garantee what the fish look's like when becoming adult.

As I see they breeder make shure everything will be mix up...

I don't know how they really do it, maybe a breeder can answer. But I suppose if I was a breeder and I got an order for 200 2" LSS, 100 A grade and 100 B grade. I would go to my LSS tanks, pick out 200 fish and then pick out 100 of the best ones out of the 200 and then I would have 100 A grade and 100 B grade? What do you think?

[Tony_S]

I was just reacting to your idea that Mary wanted a high price for the fish because she was going bankrupt.

MY IDEA!?!?!?!?!?

More BUL&$#*T. GAMES!!

NEVER ONCE did I mention Mary....NEVER ONCE did I make a reference to Mary.....NEVER ONCE did I IMPLY ANYTHING ABOUT MARY!!!


Im done with your crap sandeep....

Tony

[AmazonRainbows]

PLease guy remain calm. This thread is about grading fish. Not sparking and confrontation. This will end up no where helping no body. :mad:

[AmazonRainbows]

I don't know how they really do it, maybe a breeder can answer. But I suppose if I was a breeder and I got an order for 200 2" LSS, 100 A grade and 100 B grade. I would go to my LSS tanks, pick out 200 fish and then pick out 100 of the best ones out of the 200 and then I would have 100 A grade and 100 B grade? What do you think?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Picking the 100 best and saying it's AA grade is not right because it's make you believe you will end up with amazing fish when in reality you just got the best pick the breeder has in hand. This is also why I say small fish should not be grade because it's base on expectation. It's better saying give me 30 of your best pick, 10 of your middle pick and the last 50 the bottom one.

At least you know what you pay for and this is not making you believe you have Top gun fish that will end up like the non spotted eruption. They may have been the best out of ther btach at moment they as beeling selling but never will be AA grade. (Sorry guy for the non spotted it is the first thing going in my mind. No intentation to offence).

[Elcid]

Elcid,

Just as a joke, it's because the seller was broke :p


Hi Tony:

I do apologize, I thought you posted this when I first read it....I'm sorry!

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Picking the 100 best and saying it's AA grade is not right because it's make you believe you will end up with amazing fish when in reality you just got the best pick the breeder has in hand. This is also why I say small fish should not be grade because it's base on expectation. It's better saying give me 30 of your best pick, 10 of your middle pick and the last 50 the bottom one.

At least you know what you pay for and this is not making you believe you have Top gun fish that will end up like the non spotted eruption. They may have been the best out of ther btach at moment they as beeling selling but never will be AA grade. (Sorry guy for the non spotted it is the first thing going in my mind. No intentation to offence).

I don't know really, "Amazing' is a relative term, you might be amazed and I might not be. Or visa versa :) Which is probably the case here. When you buy spotted fish the only way to get good ones that u'll be amazed with is to build a long term relationship with the breeder like Mario (turkis) has with Wayne. In the end I believe none of the "Really REALLY amazing fish" reach the hand of the re-seller. Sorry, that's just my opinion.

HTH,
Sandeep

[nolefan]

If a breeder only has 3 grades of fish available and there are

1. no grade

2.A grade

3.AA grade ( that tells me this is the best he has for sale for that particular strain)

4.Then he has select growouts for future breeders (be prepared to pay)


Final thought,apparently AmazonRainbows you are not getting the answers you want so why don't you e mail one of these breeders overseas and ask them this questions?

Lee

[Elcid]

Elcid,

IF it's possible for colledge student, for wine made in everypart of the world from many different vine, Why is this so hard to do for fish?

I mean whatever the way they host your fish, when fish are ready to sold if breeder can tell you what they will look like (like they affirm grading small one) why can't they see the bottom one, middle one and best one out of the current selling batch?


Don't get me started on wine grading! :) Just stick with Napa Valley Cabs!

[AmazonRainbows]

I don't know really, "Amazing' is a relative term, you might be amazed and I might not be. Or visa versa :) Which is probably the case here. When you buy spotted fish the only way to get good ones that u'll be amazed with is to build a long term relationship with the breeder like Mario (turkis) has with Wayne. In the end I believe none of the "Really REALLY amazing fish" reach the hand of the re-seller. Sorry, that's just my opinion.

HTH,
Sandeep

What you say goes exactly in the same way as I go. I mean of course a nice fish is a relative thing. It can depend on your education (about the fish), relationship, and many more.

But at least at the resselers level saying you have the best pick is not making you believe you will have a AA grade fish. The approche look more honnest because it's base on the fact not on expectation. I do think that we should not use a grading system for non adult fish. Then the grading system will have a lot more meaning and would have to deliver some basic expectation at least.

[Elcid]

What you say goes exactly in the same way as I go. I mean of course a nice fish is a relative thing. It can depend on your education (about the fish), relationship, and many more.

But at least at the resselers level saying you have the best pick is not making you believe you will have a AA grade fish. The approche look more honnest because it's base on the fact not on expectation. I do think that we should not use a grading system for non adult fish. Then the grading system will have a lot more meaning and would have to deliver some basic expectation at least.

You have to understand that the grading system exists not because the breeder wants to be dishonest but because his customer demands it. In the end you get what you pay for, give him your Porsche he's likely to give you a couple of his productive pairs :)

I hope this is helping :)

take care,
Sandeep

[nolefan]

AmazonRainbows,

So when buying youg fish how does a breeder tell you the quality of the fish?

Let me geuss

1.semi round ( somewhat pattern)

2.almost round (better pattern)

3.round (full pattern)

Or

1. 3in @ $10

2. 3in@ $12

3. 3in @ $ 50

[Elcid]

What you say goes exactly in the same way as I go. I mean of course a nice fish is a relative thing. It can depend on your education (about the fish), relationship, and many more.

But at least at the resselers level saying you have the best pick is not making you believe you will have a AA grade fish. The approche look more honnest because it's base on the fact not on expectation. I do think that we should not use a grading system for non adult fish. Then the grading system will have a lot more meaning and would have to deliver some basic expectation at least.


One thing I can tell you for a fact. I visited Mary every shipment she got and got a few fish each time. I had the pick and I can tell you honestly, I could not pick out 5 fish from a tank of LSS that I thought were better than the rest....1 or 2 maybe 3 were clearly better than the others but the rest, u'd be hard pressed to differentiate...

[Elcid]

Actually, last year one reseller told me he could get me any fish I want :) All I have to do is send him a pic. He was local so I could go pickup the fish. I was pretty excited, I found a pic on the web of the look of the fish I was looking for and sent it to the re-seller. He was very happy to receive the pic because it was a fish from the same breeder he works with. He said he can get me 10 easily, $500 a piece! Money back if I'm not satisfied. Of course, I didn't have $5000 or I could have got what I wanted! Case in point!

take care,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

If a breeder only has 3 grades of fish available and there are

1. no grade

2.A grade

3.AA grade ( that tells me this is the best he has for sale for that particular strain)

4.Then he has select growouts for future breeders (be prepared to pay)


Final thought,apparently AmazonRainbows you are not getting the answers you want so why don't you e mail one of these breeders overseas and ask them this questions?

Lee

Lee,

I'm not trying to say who right and who wrong. I'm trying to make the difference between expectation and what you realy get.

I feel like telling me your best pick is a AA grade is just not fair because it's base on expectation.

I also feel your coming down on me nolefan. But it's just my feeling. May be Im wrong.

Be shure I will also ask commercial breeder but what are the chance I get answer in your opinion? I do what it's the best to do when learning, using the closest and easier resources I have in hand. I'M I wrong?

[nolefan]

AmazonRainbows,

Not trying to be hard on you just do not understand the same questions over and over .There are breeders out their that are very helpful I talk to one on a biweekly basis.

What is a grand champion to you might not be to be.Look at the shows we have in the us for example you might think the winners are grand champions and I might think they are a complete joke.To each his own.


Lee

[Elcid]

Hi Lee:

How about this?

1. no grade (SEND TO AMERICA)

2.A grade (SEND TO JAPAN)

3.AA grade (SEND TO FRIENDS)

4.Then he has select growouts for future breeders (KEEP FOR SELF)

take care,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Also it would realy help make things going on trying to get to a commun point and telling what we think then trying to get other in fault.

What I've been said from the beginning is giving a grade to a young fish help make a foncusion in the buyer mind because it making believe buying fish that will grow out like Top Gun witch may never be the case. Grading fish should be done only to Adult fish. For young you should goes by best pick order. This is also why everybody goes crazy about grading. Grading is a comparaison system and it can not be apply on expectation.

This is how I'm seeing it no offence to any one.

[nolefan]

Hi Lee:

How about this?

1. no grade (SEND TO AMERICA)

2.A grade (SEND TO JAPAN)

3.AA grade (SEND TO FRIENDS)

4.Then he has select growouts for future breeders (KEEP FOR SELF)

take care,
Sandeep
Good one ;)

[crimson cross]

Imho, the only way to get AAA quality fish is to BREED YOUR OWN....period.
Phil.

[AmazonRainbows]

What is a grand champion to you might not be to be.Look at the shows we have in the us for example you might think the winners are grand champions and I might think they are a complete joke.To each his own.



nolefan this is why in science there is many scale for evaluation. I see nothing wrong as having as many standard as need for each country. Every nation has it's own taste and this is OK with me.

One thing I see is look like people are trying to find a unique solution that would solve everything. I think this doesn't exist at all and we would be better to work at constructing many standard then turning around looking for the ultimate solution.

In science there is no perfect thing and no absolute thrute. Only thing that help getting a better understanding and that are re evaluate as new things are discover or understand.

[AmazonRainbows]

Hi Lee:

How about this?

1. no grade (SEND TO AMERICA)

2.A grade (SEND TO JAPAN)

3.AA grade (SEND TO FRIENDS)

4.Then he has select growouts for future breeders (KEEP FOR SELF)

take care,
Sandeep

I also love this reply

[AmazonRainbows]

Ok Guys,

Has this thread is moving on I ear more and more bells and whistles from different side.

I would like you to keep this in mind when posting your reply in this thread

************************************************** *****
Criticism
“We have the right to criticize only if we have to better propose! ”

and
“Intelligent people criticize the ideas.
Ordinary people criticize the facts.
Imbeciles people criticize the people. “

So please stand up and help this post if you realy whant help the case go foward. Just like I said before I do not intend to go in confrontation this will bring us no where

[Elcid]

Imho, the only way to get AAA quality fish is to BREED YOUR OWN....period.
Phil.

Hi Phil:

How many spawns do I need and what grade should the parents be for me to get AAA quality fish? Is AAA quality Aquarama Winner quality? I think maybe the gneral concensious is right, just buy some fish and enjoy them :)

thanks,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Hi Phil:

How many spawns do I need and what grade should the parents be for me to get AAA quality fish? Is AAA quality Aquarama Winner quality? I think maybe the gneral concensious is right, just buy some fish and enjoy them :)

thanks,
Sandeep
Elcid,

DId you read the post I did just before?

I said no confrontation. You are not of any help with this. If you have good idea to share then do it. If no please retain your personnal story for PM.

[AmazonRainbows]

I START THE QUESTION AGAIN.

I SAID YOUNG'S FISH SHOULD NOT BE GRADE BUT GET A DIFFERENT QUOTE BECAUSE GRADING IT ARE BASE ON EXPECTATION AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU GET.

PLease if you have better to propose then do it and explain why you think so.

[Elcid]

Ugh! Why does a disagreement have to be a confrontation? I know of all the fish I ever breed and I had many 100s of fry, I never got any AAA grade fish. That's just because my skill level, the level of the fish I was breeding, etc. was not sufficient to get AAA quality or show winner fish or Top Gun, whatever you want to call it.

Okay, Amazon?

take care,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Ugh! Why does a disagreement have to be a confrontation? I know of all the fish I ever breed and I had many 100s of fry, I never got any AAA grade fish. That's just because my skill level, the level of the fish I was breeding, etc. was not sufficient to get AAA quality or show winner fish or Top Gun, whatever you want to call it.

Okay, Amazon?

take care,
Sandeep
Elcid,

Would you explain how your disagreement help this case going foward?

[Timbo]

Elcid,

DId you read the post I did just before?

I said no confrontation. You are not of any help with this.
almost sounds like confrontation there in and of itself :)

[Elcid]

Elcid,

Would you explain how your disagreement help this case going foward?

Okay, maybe I'm not clear with what it is you want? This is what I think you want to know?

How to get small fish graded so that you can be sure you get some "Top Gun" fish? Isn't that the purpose of your thread?

thanks,
Sandeep

[crimson cross]

Almost every good spawn has AAA fish...it's your ability to raise these and select out the best that is most critical and if you can do that, then your search for triple As is right in front of you..easier said than done....but that's the challenge..
Phil.

[AmazonRainbows]

almost sounds like confrontation there in and of itself :)
Please folks focus on the question I ask. We are loosing hour time right now. I have propose something and i'm waiting to get a better proposal. If you can't then don't post.

[Elcid]

Almost every good spawn has AAA fish...it's your ability to raise these and select out the best that is most critical and if you can do that, then your search for triple As is right in front of you..easier said than done....but that's the challenge..
Phil.


Hi Phil:

Thanks for your answer, I hope this time around I have more success :), I just got a nice spawn, I better go bone up on How to Raise a Champion in Andrew Soh's book :)

thanks again,
Sandeep

[crimson cross]

Lol, Sandeep, you do that and who knows, in the near future, I maybe coming to you for triple A fish(if you are willing to part with it, that is). Take care and good luck,
Phil.

[Elcid]

OMG Phil:

I'd give up my wife before I'd give up my AAA grade fish! You've gotta be kidding :)

take care,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Okay, maybe I'm not clear with what it is you want? This is what I think you want to know?

How to get small fish graded so that you can be sure you get some "Top Gun" fish? Isn't that the purpose of your thread?

thanks,
Sandeep
Elcid,

No and sorry if I haven't been clear. Grading small fish is base on expectation and event if you select the best fish can't garantee how it will turn out. Because of this I do believe that grading a smal fish is not the best way to sold them. It's base on expectation and expectation is a very personnal reference.

What I say is grading fish should be reserved only to Adult fish so that fixed point of comparaison can be made.

For small fish being sold they should be quote base on the batch you are buying at the moment you are buying them. This would drop all expectation and buyer would pay for what he is realy having.

When you buy adult fish you pay exactly for what you get. Why can't it be the same for small fish?

[AmazonRainbows]

Hi Phil:

Thanks for your answer, I hope this time around I have more success :), I just got a nice spawn, I better go bone up on How to Raise a Champion in Andrew Soh's book :)

thanks again,
Sandeep
Elcid,

You keep baffling the rule I ask you to respect on the post I start. How can this post of your's are helping us going foward? Please be a gentleman :( You can PM phil and he would have received your reply...

[AmazonRainbows]

Please folks focus on the question I ask. We are loosing hour time right now. I have propose something and i'm waiting to get a better proposal. If you can't then don't post.

[Elcid]

Grading small fish is base on expectation and event if you select the best fish can't garantee how it will turn out.

You are right! No need to discuss.

Because of this I do believe that grading a smal fish is not the best way to sold them. It's base on expectation and expectation is a very personnal reference.

Okay so we don't need to grade small discus, agreed.

What I say is grading fish should be reserved only to Adult fish so that fixed point of comparaison can be made.

Okay, only adults are to be graded.

For small fish being sold they should be quote base on the batch you are buying at the moment you are buying them. This would drop all expectation and buyer would pay for what he is realy having.

I don't get this can you explain this more?


When you buy adult fish you pay exactly for what you get. Why can't it be the same for small fish?

It is the same I think? Maybe you should clarify this? The nicer looking ones are sold at a premium than the less nicer ones and the least nice onces are sold at an even lesser premium and the defectiive onces are sold at an even lesser premium?

[crimson cross]

Hi AmazonRainbow,

1) Grading fish is subjective.
2) Any graded fish can change
So what can you expect and is there a real answer for your question???

[AmazonRainbows]

I think you whant me to clarify this section:

For small fish being sold they should be quote base on the batch you are buying at the moment you are buying them. This would drop all expectation and buyer would pay for what he is realy having.

I'm are right?

[crimson cross]

Wrong, read #2 on my previous posting.

[AmazonRainbows]

1) Grading fish is subjective.


This can be fixed by standard points. It is subjective right now but a round body is a round body. A big eyes is a big eyes. You can't get out of this. Grade should be base on physical attribute that can be evaluate.



2) Any graded fish can change


That's right and it can goes better or worse. But at least you know what you buy at the moment of your purchase.

[crimson cross]

How would you like to buy a fully spotted fish, nice and round too, and pay triple price for it NOW and have the spots disappear from you 6 months from now??Where will that put your initial grading???

[Elcid]

Hi Amazon:

If you are proposing that the whole batch be sold as ungraded. This is sometimes done but you do have to buy a whole batch an not individual fish!

HTH,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

How would you like to buy a fully spotted fish, nice and round too, and pay triple price for it NOW and have the spots disappear from you 6 months from now??Where will that put your initial grading???
crimson,

I'm getting you back to the rule I ask first. I you have better to propose then post. If not then retain yourself.

But I will answer to this question:

If the grading is done by the physical attribute of a fish for what you realy get then the pattern and color will be the properties that make a AA from a breeder at 50$ and and AA from another breeder at 500$. Color lost can be grade just like your theet. People whu pay for white thoot know what I mean.

When people start buying fish grade AA that drop a lot in color grade ther fish will loose value and market will adjust by themself. Forum like here will help poeple sharing informatin about color drop level.

Now I see your next question comming: Yes but fish can have different drop in color because of the owner. Weel here will be the point where buyer have to do his works. Evaluate the reference. Also they will be a commun drop comming out when many owner possess the fish.

[AmazonRainbows]

Hi Amazon:

If you are proposing that the whole batch be sold as ungraded. This is sometimes done but you do have to buy a whole batch an not individual fish!

HTH,
Sandeep

Elcid,

I'm sending you back to rule number one

************************************************** *****
Criticism
“We have the right to criticize only if we have to better propose! ”

Plaese post only if you have better to propose.

[Elcid]

Okay you are making it hard but I'll try not to be a quitter!

This is my proposition. The buyer pay an additional $25 per fish to the seller per fish for grading. The grading should be done by independant grader that the seller will hire to conduct this evaluation. The grading method will be based strictly on # of defects on each individual fish.

[AmazonRainbows]

Okay you are making it hard but I'll try not to be a quitter!

This is my proposition. The buyer pay an additional $25 per fish to the seller per fish for grading. The grading should be done by independant grader that the seller will hire to conduct this evaluation. The grading method will be based strictly on # of defects on each individual fish.
Elcid,

Happy to see you give a try :) Don't whant to stop you because you give a good start but at first I would like to see before we goes on grading if we agree that Grading should be use only for Adulte.

[Elcid]

Elcid,

Happy to see you give a try :) Don't whant to stop you because you give a good start but at first I would like to see before we goes on grading if we agree that Grading should be use only for Adulte.

Why don't you start a poll and see if you can get 100 members to agree with you? It's not worth continuing unless you get some reasonable agreement amongst members.

Good Luck,
Sandeep

[AmazonRainbows]

Why don't you start a poll and see if you can get 100 members to agree with you? It's not worth continuing unless you get some reasonable agreement amongst members.

Good Luck,
Sandeep
Thank you Elcid,

I first tough about a post but human nature is repulsive to change. I will probaly end with a lot of dismiss due to many reason but not the right one. To do a post that give an honest profile you need to ask many question and counter questions.

So I tough why not starting the weel with willing people and see if it can turn?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=316347#post316347

I have post this thread and I will let it go for a little while. If I can't get better then my proposal I will start with willing people interested in going further with the base I propose.

Thank you very much.