MARIE HAS DONE IT NOW.....

[Kindredspirit]

Okay guys ~


I am posting this so others can learn as we go here and me too ~ Let me state as well that I never moved over any fish as I was contemplating at one time ~


These discus in question are all my awesome fish from Dan ~ he is the sweetest guy I swear.....always there for me ~ like few others I know and love ~
Last night I noticed a small white spot on my discus ~ that is the first pic you see ~ I decided to wait and see ~ at the same time I noticed my biggest one was alone ~ not like him and I know my fish ~ very well ~ but ~ I blew it off and did a wc and waited ~

This morning the one with the spot looks like the second pic ~ one way for me to confirm what I feel is to feed them... they all ate but not as aggressively as they do ~

My first thought was... as some of you know I had purchased a new discus ...a juvie from our lfs at the same time I got my ONLY LIVE PLANTS ~ {and some Gobies} ~ as Dan helped me to create my driftwood~ this was a week ago approx ~ My new discus has since passed ~ I shld never have got only one ~ something I shall have to live with ~ he passed yesterday ~ yes he was qt'd and I used all separate equipment and rinsed my hands in alcohol and took every precaution I could think of ~except once I believed I forgot to wash my hands after feeding the new discus in qt~something again I will not forget anywhere soon make no mistake about that ~

Last night if I had hit them with meds I could have stopped this from progressing so quick over night but there was no way to know last night with that one little spot! ~ according to what I have relayed to Dan ~ in his opinion ~ this is Columnaris ~ I read so much on this today and .....wow...

I hit them hard with Furan2 and I know some may not agree but this spread over night so quick and I simply can not justify waiting any longer and applying the salt and wc change plan ~

So pl let me have it ~ bar none ~ I am a little more tough now ~ ( Dan... Candy ...Frank...quiet!)

My questions:

1. Do you think that I brought this home on the plants? I did soak them well and rinsed even better ~ I only had four ~ two died and only two are left attached to the driftwood ~

2. Most likely scenario is I did this personally when I didn't wash my hands after feeding the one in qt?

3. Is Columnaris the same as the BLACK? cuz according to some you might as well toss them now ~

4. Do discus usually bounce back from this?

5. So...when you see slime coat as in these pics YOU wld think of Columnaris straight away? I know that slipping of the slime coat indicates a bacterial infection but my tanks are so clean with reg wc and my fish are not weak and .....I am really upset and confused here ~do not understand how or why this hit them so quick as I thought it was mainly on weak stressed fish?

6. Wld you treat all the other tanks to be sure? Talk about paranoid now! Anything I shld do in re to this? I think I read that is is airborne?? Oh Hell no...

7. Okay.. I used my main Python on this tank now that has this ~ can I soak it in the tub with bleach? I really need to use it for the other tanks. But an outbreak of this on all my tanks wld not work well for me ~

8. Ya know I bought live plants for the first time ...why did I do that? I was soooooo happy with my silk ones....I also got a few gobies ...tiny tiny ones and they are all doing great in their own tank ~ What does that tell anyone?? Cuz should they be ill too? Same fish store....and same tank at home for two days as well ~

9. Does anyone think that changing the brand of fbw that I always use cld have brought this on?

I am sorry for such a long and boring post guys ~ and things that you have all heard and answered before ~ a kajillion ( kk) times! I just am def trippin here and I am worried ~ I have hit them with Furan2 hard ~ double dose ~ I will continue for 10 days at single dose ~ temp at 84...cuz bacteria does grow at higher temp....yes?

Thank you ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_9_8.gif


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5189Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5192Small.jpg

[tpl*co]

Marie, I'm so so sorry, did you quarantine the plants too before putting them in? If not it could be the plants if they were from the same source :(. I didn't know gobies could go in with discus? (different water temps?).

I hope you kick this soon. It's too late if it was the plants, leave them in and treat everything!

Tina

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
I'm so sorry this has happened to you!
I had something very similar recently and lost over half my fish (6 out of 11)
so I know how devastating it is.

My questions:

1. Do you think that I brought this home on the plants? I did soak them well and rinsed even better ~ I only had four ~ two died and only two are left attached to the driftwood ~

No

2. Most likely scenario is I did this personally when I didn't wash my hands after feeding the one in qt?

Not impossible, I find a little unlikely though

3. Is Columnaris the same as the BLACK? cuz according to some you might as well toss them now ~

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with "black" but it does look like a bacterial infection

4. Do discus usually bounce back from this?

Not for me no, not without treatment anyway. BUT my remaining 5 are all fine now

5. So...when you see slime coat as in these pics YOU wld think of Columnaris straight away? I know that slipping of the slime coat indicates a bacterial infection but my tanks are so clean with reg wc and my fish are not weak and .....I am really upset and confused here ~do not understand how or why this hit them so quick as I thought it was mainly on weak stressed fish?

Yep, mine were all healthy and strong too. I'm not positive it's Columnaris, but I'm pretty sure it's bacterial.

6. Wld you treat all the other tanks to be sure? Talk about paranoid now! Anything I shld do in re to this? I think I read that is is airborne?? Oh Hell no...

I wouldn't, but I dislike dosing prophylactically, especially with antibiotics

7. Okay.. I used my main Python on this tank now that has this ~ can I soak it in the tub with bleach? I really need to use it for the other tanks. But an outbreak of this on all my tanks wld not work well for me ~

Exactly how I think it got spread in my tanks. Big Al's (among others I'm sure) sells Python accessories, one of which is the gravel washer thingie, I own 3 now just in case.

8. Ya know I bought live plants for the first time ...why did I do that? I was soooooo happy with my silk ones....I also got a few gobies ...tiny tiny ones and they are all doing great in their own tank ~ What does that tell anyone?? Cuz should they be ill too? Same fish store....and same tank at home for two days as well ~

I honestly doubt it was from the plants, but anything is possible. My guess is it came from the fish that died.

9. Does anyone think that changing the brand of fbw that I always use cld have brought this on?

I don't think so.


When this first happened to me Paul, Dave and Mat all told me it was a bacteria, but I refused to listen, I knew better, I thought it was a virus. You know the result. I FINALLY listened to Carol Roberts and used Furan 2. That was what did the trick. My suggestion is to get some Furan 2 and do it quickly. (If you have trouble finding it I'll send you some)


Larry

ps Do NOT panic Marie, you'll only make it worse

[N_E_time]

Marie I just wnt through this with my fish. It is VERY contagous and I do believe it to be COLUMNARIS. At first I used maracyn, that did not work then maracyn2 that did not work either then Cary Strong said to try tetracycline
and that did not work. Every day I could see more fish getting this and getting worse, this went in for a week and a half. Then I tried BINOX from Jungle and within 24 hours I noticed an improvment. Some experts say there are different strains of this disease and are immune to some medicines. Whats strange is I also have Rummy nose tetras in the same tank and they were un affected by this stuff. I did lose some fish in the process.:(


Mike

[marilyn1998]

Sis,


DEEP BREATH and calm down a second. The furan2 is a GOOD thing. What you are showing is EXACTLY what I had on my one fish (the original mate to my female) that died early May. It doesnt appear to be too late. Your guy isnt black yet. And he is still eating.

Your questions:

1. Do you think that I brought this home on the plants? I did soak them well and rinsed even better ~ I only had four ~ two died and only two are left attached to the driftwood ~


NO> but you do need to douse them in bleach water before you add them. They can carry snails, duckweed and disease. If they looked healthy, then I wouldnt worry.

2. Most likely scenario is I did this personally when I didn't wash my hands after feeding the one in qt?

NO> just feeding wouldnt do it unless you playing in the water in both tanks.

3. Is Columnaris the same as the BLACK? cuz according to some you might as well toss them now ~

NO> are you referring to hex?

4. Do discus usually bounce back from this?

THey can if treated quickly enough. I think you did good added Furan2 today.
I was also told to do the salt bath thingy. You might try that, then put him back in the tank with the med.

5. So...when you see slime coat as in these pics YOU wld think of Columnaris straight away? I know that slipping of the slime coat indicates a bacterial infection but my tanks are so clean with reg wc and my fish are not weak and .....I am really upset and confused here ~do not understand how or why this hit them so quick as I thought it was mainly on weak stressed fish?

YES. The fact they are NOT weak, still eating and you worked fast is the best thing for them! Kudos to you for catching this!! Remember to keep the temp about 84.

6. Wld you treat all the other tanks to be sure? Talk about paranoid now! Anything I shld do in re to this? I think I read that is is airborne?? Oh Hell no...

I wouldnt treat prophylatically. If you feel the need, use MElafix. IT has tea tree oil in it and is not antibiotic, so it wont cause resistance or hurt your filter or plants. I did this to the tank where my fish died. NOONE ELSE GOT SICK!

7. Okay.. I used my main Python on this tank now that has this ~ can I soak it in the tub with bleach? I really need to use it for the other tanks. But an outbreak of this on all my tanks wld not work well for me ~

I would soak it for sure. Can you get a cheapo to use for your QT tank? So you dont have to worry about cross contamination again.

8. Ya know I bought live plants for the first time ...why did I do that? I was soooooo happy with my silk ones....I also got a few gobies ...tiny tiny ones and they are all doing great in their own tank ~ What does that tell anyone?? Cuz should they be ill too? Same fish store....and same tank at home for two days as well ~

If the gobies arent sick I would take that as a good sign.

9. Does anyone think that changing the brand of fbw that I always use cld have brought this on?



NO>


Good Luck babe and call me if ya wanna talk.

[Kindredspirit]

Larry ~ Thank you!! The discus that died ....was in qt..in another room and all equipment was separate ...always......

The plants that came from the lfs are in this tank now...so........

Just that one time I did not wash my hands ~ once the only way I could have transferred from the qt discus was with my hand that one time:( Unless the plants...

I have started Furan2...today ~ but...i dont have anymore so I called everywhere and amazingly some lfs have never heard of it! I can not find anymore:( ...I have enough for one more day ~

So........I called Dr. Smiths and ordered some for tomorrow del'vry and it is sooooooooo much cheaper as I pay ( when i can find it ) 6 bucks for 8 tabs! I got 100 tabs for 19-....but overnight del'vry cost me $ 23! Thank you for the offer Larry ~ very sweet ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Marilyn ~


Thanks ~ I am very sad ~ I feel like a total idiot ~


They are pretty dark now ~ Dan did say it may get worse before better ~ They hate this med tho ~ funny thing is that the two Yellow Pigeon x Snakeskins are not trippin at all! No signs ...nada....zip! Swimming around and all ~

But the Golden x Albino are not well ~ This happened so quick ~ Im tellin ya ~ :(


Fine one min ~ down the next ~ on a dime man ~:(
So........if not the change of food...or one hand in for a sec...sep equipment on the qt tank....not the plants ....


WHAT??? HOW? The need to know and understand is great here ~

M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Marie I just wnt through this with my fish. It is VERY contagous and I do believe it to be COLUMNARIS.

Mike



Wonderful ~




Thank you Mike ~

[marilyn1998]

Marie,

When my guy got it I felt just like you. WIthin 24 hours of him not eating and getting slimy he was gone. Just like that. ANd noone else got sick and I had no clue he was.

All the reading I did pointed down to that many diseases are always present in the water and the fish. For reasons of stress, water params, and who knows what, (somethimes nothing we can see or do), the disease takes hold.
This is prolly the closest to an aswer you are gonna get.

Feel better knowing that you acted CORRECTLY, acted QUICKLY, and learned from this. YOu did everything right in the treatment.

I hope they all do well. Keep me posted.

[Kindredspirit]

Kudos to you for catching this!!



I caught the spot last night ~ Dan caught the problem this morning ~

I did nothing but cause it

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
I was hit in 2 tanks... and they weren't even on the same floor (one was in the family room, one in the basement) If you're interested you could check out my Discus Plague thread. It really devasted me. Ummm 10 days treatment? 4 days is the recomended treatment on my bottle, which I also got from Drsfoster&smith btw. I did 50% wc's every day, even though that isn't what the bottle says to do, and then full dose after (1 cap per ten gallons) mine were in a 55 gallon and I used 5 caps a day for 4 days. (I was going to use 6 caps but Carol suggested that I use the 5 only, and I think she was correct).
I agree with Marilyn about everything, except about the plants, I seriously doubt that's where it came from, but I most certainly could be mistaken.

hth,
Larry

Oh! The reason I reposted, salt baths are a very good thing, which was a suggestion I got from Dave. They helped a LOT. I don't think they cured anything but my fish always seemed more "comfortable" afterwards. Lower temps and low pH help keep bacteria in check.

[tpl*co]

Marie,

I ordered some Furan 2 from Bigal's about a week and a half ago, it should arrive any day. If you need some (or yours doesn't come in time) give me a holler.

Tina

[Kindredspirit]

Ummm 10 days treatment? 4 days is the recomended treatment on my bottle,




Usually antibiodics do not start working til after five days ~ mistake some make I think ~ and not continuing long enough ~


lets hope I am not an idiot here as well ~

[raglanroad]

Marie, YES to Furan 2. YES to salt DIPS, not bath. Strong salt dip. This looks like costia also, and it is likely many columnaris diagnoses are costia. No problem, same treatment. Costia has some forms that are marine or fresh, so those may be resistant to salt at sea water strength.

The salt dips did help my fish look much cleaner , and fins were spread afterward, even more and more quickly than the Furan 2. I would not use Furan for an extended period, and for sure, BIG TIME aeration, waves on the surface, and circulation too.

I would say to do 80% WC every day and fully re-dose.

Dave

[marilyn1998]

Marie,

SOmeone correct me please, but I think that Furan2 will color your water green and can affect the biofilter. So test daily. With those big WC's you shouldnt have any probs. Just be careful not to tax the tank too soon and aerate is good too. When the treatment is done, put in carbon for 3 days to get rid of the medicine. dont forget to remove it!

[marilyn1998]

Marie,

Dont forget furan2 is carcenogenic... wear gloves. Also, turn off the light and block the light to the tank. It can cause bacteria to grow faster and also weaken the medication.

[raglanroad]

furan is said not to affect the filter, but others disagree. Marilyn, this is why I maintain that keeping the pH at 6.5 or lower at all times is the best policy. In case of meds or filter problems, you don't have killer ammonia spikes. You have ammonium.

With big WC, no need for carbon, just change the water.

And I like acriflavine as a med for undetermined organisms also. Found in Fungus cure by AP, which is malachite and acriflavine. Really good med.

Maracyn whatever with tetracycline, no way. Erythromycin, the same, not so great for water application. In the food for those two.
Dave

[Kindredspirit]

okay....salt dips? I wld rather not take anyone out of this tank as I am not wanting to put further stress on them ~ Did that make sense? hmm...I am tired ~ sorry guys ~ umm....shld I be adding salt to the tank along with the Furan2??

Please dont make me take anyone out ~


I dont care if the plants die ~

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
Oooops I did mean dips, and yes this is the Dave that helped me.

Larry

[lhforbes12]

okay....salt dips? I wld rather not take anyone out of this tank as I am not wanting to put further stress on them ~ Did that make sense? hmm...I am tired ~ sorry guys ~ umm....shld I be adding salt to the tank along with the Furan2??

Please dont make me take anyone out ~


I dont care if the plants die ~

Marie,
I felt exactly the same way... until after I tried it for the first time. The difference is amazing, they just look better, and you can tell that they FEEL BETTER after a salt dip. You need to move them to a seperate container because you need to use a LOT of salt, many keep them in the dip until they "roll", I've read that some even keep them in longer. I don't remember how much to use exactly, maybe Dave could chime back in? I used whatever amount he told me to use.

Larry

[traco]

Marie, sorry to hear about your discus. You got on it right away which hopefully should help. I did a salt bath on my angel for 20 min salt bath, 2 tablespoons per gallon. If it rolls over before the 20 mins get it out and back in the main tank straight away. It did help.

Keep the lights off as Furan 2 is light sensitive.

I don't think it was the plants or cross contamination of your hands. Not sure what but maybe adding the wood piece stressed them? That is all I can think.

Good luck and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.:o

[tpl*co]

Marie, sorry to hear about your discus. You got on it right away which hopefully should help. I did a salt bath on my angel for 20 min salt bath, 2 tablespoons per gallon. If it rolls over before the 20 mins get it out and back in the main tank straight away. It did help.

Keep the lights off as Furan 2 is light sensitive.

I don't think it was the plants or cross contamination of your hands. Not sure what but maybe adding the wood piece stressed them? That is all I can think.

Good luck and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.:o

I totally missed the part about the new drift wood! How did you make that? (what materials did you use, what type of wood, was it soaked prior to use)?

Tina

[lhforbes12]

Marie,

SOmeone correct me please, but I think that Furan2 will color your water green and can affect the biofilter. So test daily. With those big WC's you shouldnt have any probs. Just be careful not to tax the tank too soon and aerate is good too. When the treatment is done, put in carbon for 3 days to get rid of the medicine. dont forget to remove it!

Furan 2 has 2% Methylene Blue Trihydrate, so there's where the color comes from. I agree with Marilyn, Furan 2 killed my bio-filter.

Larry

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - I'm really sorry to hear this...but keep in mind with daily WCs or salt or antibiotics(back to strength) you can save these fishes. In the coming days they will look REALLY bad to the point where you think you should put them out of their misery. No, have faith in them and they will bounce back in about 2 weeks(approx.) What you're doing is to help their immune system to combat this disease and they shall recover.

Remember to keep the inside glasses and sponges clean when you see heavy slimes in your water. Any secondary/external infection can be taken care of by formalin, PP or salt dip. It'll be a lot of work for you for the next 2 weeks but it'll be worth it Marie.

Also when using antibiotics be sure to use it for the full duration to prevent possible future relapses, even if they seem to have recovered b4 that.

Best wishes to your fishes,
Kenny

[Kindredspirit]

I totally missed the part about the new drift wood! How did you make that? (what materials did you use, what type of wood, was it soaked prior to use)?

Tina


I cheated Tina ~ most of the plants are plastic and the driftwood isnt real ~ but I did buy four plants and attached them to it ~ two of which died in one day and two are still attached ~

It looked great ~ up til when I started knocking off my fish and turned my water blue ~ pretty much like a graveyard now ~

Now they are hiding behind it and the biggest who has no slime coat slipping ~ is flat under it ~ Not a pretty sight to look at .... this tank ~ they look like they are all pretty much dying


Kenny I love you ~ Dan you too ~ everyone that has sent pm's all the calls ~ all these posts ~


Thank You all ~
I do not know where I would be without you guys and Sd~

[traco]

Now it is the waiting. That's the hardest thing to do. You watch them, they look awful and you have to wait for the meds to kick in and help them.

You're doing great so far. And it is sooo nice to have all this info and help you are receiving.:)

[Kenny's Discus]

[QUOTE=traco]Now it is the waiting. That's the hardest thing to do. You watch them, they look awful and you have to wait for the meds to kick in and help them.
QUOTE]

Exactly Barb.

Marie, don't lose hope...give them time and a chance to fight this terrible disease off. We're all pulling for you & your fishes here. Ask any questions you might have in the next few days here on this thread and we will help in any way we can.

again best wishes,
Kenny

[April]

dont panic...heck..a lack of water changes can cause columnaris type symptoms..i had a fish like that awhile ago..cause i slacked on water changes..too much bio. right away..you see the saddle..whitish type slimecoat. no biggy..i did a big wc..and lots of salt..and he looked miserable for a few days..and now fine.
they can look sooooo bad..and then within a week or so..look so good and back to breeding.
yes..your hands could do it. i spread a virus or columnaris type thing from tank to tank..by touching one tank with one finger..then it went to teh next tank..and soon i had it in the upstairs tanks..and the downstairs tanks. i turned the lights out..did the salt and furan..and maroxy that i was advised to do...and most of them did fine.
black is just the worse version of what your showing ...with starting to work on it now..things should get better. ill cross my fingers for you.
why dont you have a tank for things like gobies..and plants..and driftwood etc...and leave your discus with discus and bare bottom?
soon as people relax..and figure..oh..i got this downpat..and can get more creative..more chances of things going wrong .
well let us know how its going..hope its all back to normal very soon.

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
They look awful because they hate the Furan 2. Once your treatment course is finished they will color up and begin to act normally. Don't despair, I think Marilyn said, and I agree "Feel better knowing that you acted CORRECTLY, acted QUICKLY, and learned from this. You did everything right in the treatment". I truly believe they will be OK, they just need the meds and time. btw mine are still pretty pissed at me for their ordeal, but they are starting to get over it.

Larry

[brewmaster15]

Hi Marie,

The white patches you see... are they on the body only? How do the eyes look, are they clear or cloudy? and the fins? clear or opaque?

can you post a bunch of pics of the fish now....from several angles..

Try not to over worry here.. Illnesses in fish don't always mean fish deaths will occur. You did good by flagging it early and if its bacterial it'll be easier to treat.

-al

[April]

there you go..take your pics. dr. brewmaster is here.
it could be water..did you check your ph and ammonia? then the eyes would be cloudy..and the fins white..

[kdazzel]

I feel so bad for you:( :( , I hope they get better

kdazzel

[Kindredspirit]

why dont you have a tank for things like gobies..and plants..and driftwood etc...and leave your discus with discus and bare bottom?

Hey you ~ Thanks April for being here ~ I do have a tank set up just for my gobies ~ they are alone ~ the discus tank that is sick now is bare bottom except for this fake driftwood and three attached real plants and nothing has been added new to this tank but that a week ago ~ I will post some pics of the set up ~



soon as people relax..and figure..oh..i got this downpat..and can get more creative..more chances of things going wrong .


Well how true is that statement ~ very true ~ you couldnt have said it better ~


So ~ when do we become confident enough April?



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie,

The white patches you see... are they on the body only? How do the eyes look, are they clear or cloudy? and the fins? clear or opaque?

can you post a bunch of pics of the fish now....from several angles..

Try not to over worry here.. Illnesses in fish don't always mean fish deaths will occur. You did good by flagging it early and if its bacterial it'll be easier to treat.

-al


Hey Al ~

Thank for stopping by ~ I do not have any patches anymore ~ there was only one patch on that first pic ~and yes they are only on the bodies ~ Now....some look like the second pic ~ the fins are clear ~ some clamped ~ eyes are clear and normal ~ this went from one small white spot last night ~ to each fish in that tank on dime Al ~ it spread so quick ~ from 7:30am to 8:35am this morning ... one hour.. they all had it but one ~

I will post some more pics in the morning if that is okay ~ Al listen earlier they were like up at the corner of the tank def trippin and in the bubble stream ~ it was real scary ~ I have two air thingys in my 2 Hydro Sponges ...but they seem to need more air.. so I added another.. can they have too much?

Ya know Al ~ i qt that fish ~ that new discus and still ..only Me.. can still screw it all up



Marie ~

[Kindredspirit]

I feel so bad for you:( :( , I hope they get better

kdazzel


thank you very much ~

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
*You* didn't screw up anything... sh*t happens...
And you are taking care of it. Quit blaming yourself your piccies show what appears to be exactly what my fish had and you have already started on the correct course to cure them. btw mine also seemed to like being where there was a lot of water movement... near an airstone, near the spraybar. I really think in a few days you will be amazed at how much better they are. Do the salt dips woman!

Larry

[Kindredspirit]

aww...Larry ~ stick around okay? thanks ~


Al~

Here are some pictures ~ they are not very good forgive me but the tank is green now and I have the lights off ~ I can try for better shots just say the word ~

Note how quick they went down compared to the pics I posted earlier ~ It is 11pm here now and they do not look worse at this point ~ The Pigeon snakeskins were the last to get it but now look the saddest ~ the ones that lost slimecoat seem to be more active at times ~ I had never seen slime coat before ~ It is a sad thing to see ~ If I do not see it ever again it would be too soon for me ~

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5215Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5214Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5211Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5203Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5201Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5200Small.jpg

[Kindredspirit]

Al ~

Here is the pic of the 'blue Angel' I got at the lfs ~ I bought him on the the 15th and this pic was taken on the 17th~ I also added the plants on the 15th to the 55gal in question ~ nothing was in the 10gal qt tank ~ with this discus ~


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_3470Small.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/DRIFTWOODCENTERSmall.jpg

[lhforbes12]

Marie, Your "blue angel" (looks like a BD to me btw) looks like it has exactly what your other fish have now to me. (it also looks like what mine had) why do you think it wasn't the source?

[candyl70]

I think Marie IS thinking this is the source. The plants and the fish came from the same store..... so.... it's one or the other. Either way, I'm thinking that the cause isn't as important anymore, just treating them and getting them well is. Right??
Blue angel in this case is a BD... just different names to make them sound fancier. :) :)

[raglanroad]

Marie, first, I'm confused if you already have the furan or not. If not then use the salt dip regardless of what is wrong ( a bit of overstatement).

to answer your main question, stress means SHITTUMS ! It's the equivalent of a ride to the hospital ;if you have to, go, you have to.

You can start with 2 tablespoons per gal. and go up to 2 1/2, 3and more. Not sure, but for Koi they say as high as 9tblsp./g. can be done. Even 5 minutes should help, and watch the fish the whole time, and if it rolls over, put it back in the tank. If it is very still, touch it to make it dive/react.If it reacts it's still OK.


the question about full course of med:Furan is not an antibiotic such a tetracycline is. Furan kills stuff. Lots of stuff. I would see how it goes before deciding on how many days, for furan. If after a while on furan, they are improving but not well yet, I would go a BIT longer with the treatments.

I would also get malachite acriflavine med on order .

Basically, I've dinked around with erythromycin, tetracycline, triple sulpha type stuff they sell and I can't say anything about them, if they worked or not. percentages were not better than super clean water for cloudy eye if caught right away.Some went bad and during repeated and varied treatments died.

super clean low pH low TDS Water has a 100% success rate for cloudy eye, on my angels, so far in about 5 or 6 cases. Some people say using a good % fresh every day, no more dechlor tapwater and high oxygen works better than meds for lots of diseases.So there ya go. Meds are tricky.

We'll see what Al thinks about the look of them right now.I keep angels.

Dave

[lhforbes12]

Candy,
I definately agree with you.

Dave,
Yep, bottle says 4 days and that's what it took for my fish. Marie had enough Furan 2 to dose for today only but she over nighted a 100 cap bottle and will recieve it tomorrow... erm today actually, given what time it is as I type this.

Larry

[raglanroad]

This may be wildly innacurate, but from the little I've counted up on forums, hobbyists got maybe 60 % survival at this stage using furan 2 alone.

[lhforbes12]

Dave,
In my case I was doing as you suggested, low pH, low temp, salt dip and Furan 2. 100% effective for me once I was on the correct course.

Larry

[brewmaster15]

Hi Marie,
I am guessing that your new discus brought in a strain of pseudomonas and you inadvertently passed it into your tank...Be very , very careeful of the other tank ( not sick) .. The reason why I think pseudomonas not columnaris is how it spread from your QT tank to the other tank...This bacterial pathogen is adept at spreading in drops of water ( think air pumps and water bubbles).. I would cover the non-sick tank with a plastic, be sure to allow a vent for the light....Its just a guess though on the ID... if it gets bad, theres labs at Berkley that can probably identify what it is..


wash up with 90% rubbing alcohol before going anywhere near that other tank...bleach all hoses etc.

On these fish...I would treat with Furan 2 as you were advised. You will need 10 days worth of antibiotic minimum. (try jehmco.com if you are having trouble finding it locally.) ...By day 5 things will start to turn around if the bacteria is responding....continue the medications until all signs of infection are over..,,,generally 10 days will do it.
During this time...large water changes daily before dosing is absolutely critical to remove ammonia and nitrite..I have noted repeatedly that furan 2 can really impact your biofiloter...especially the bacterias that break down nitrite.....so nitrite spikes are common. The methyline blue in Furan 2 will help reduce toxicity there..

Salt dips are a useful tool here to remove the slime coat and the bacteria on it...They are scary when first done, and can kill a weak fish, but I have used them many times and they do help. I would certainly try them. If used in conjuction with dye like methyl blue they can really be useful for parasites.

Salt in the tank, as a bath...I personally subscribe to using salt as a medication for discus when they suffer from bacterial issues and external parasites... it aids in slime coat turnover and decreases stress, protects from nitrite poisoning..Adding salt of up to 1 tablespoon/ 1 gal water has never harmed my discus but it may be especially helpful in the event that this is columnaris...It may prevent the bacteria from attaching... Salt has proven its usefulness in treating these ailments to many Discus hobbyists..... Like all things in this hobby Not all agree on using salt as a continuous bath, but if the fish were mine...I would hit them with salt in the tank Plus furan 2 .... 1 -2 tabelspoons salt per gallon. I and many others including Cary Strong have used salt like this for up to a week. When you do your water changes... replace whatever salt you take out to maintain levels. The Salt that is best used is the non-iodine Kosher salts at super markets...its easiest to measure and not expensive.

Is the SALT necessary, maybe not, no way to really know.. Those that try it often say it works great...Those that havent tried it cite that discus come from low salt waters..which is true...and they feel that it may stress out the functioning of organs like the kidneys.. which again may be true in theory.... but for me if it does have negatives they are outweighed by the positives in a short term treatment.....

I can only tell you what I would do and my thinking behind it...ultimately the choice is yours..

pH drops and maintaining it in acidic ranges... helpful yes, but only if you are comfortable with adjusting pH.... Inexperience here could kill your fish or stress them out.

Whatever you do...lots of water changes... and stay the course with the furan 2...it may look initially like its not working...They look worse in the slime coat because theres a major battle going on there. they hang in the corner or airstream because often times. iF Theres gill inflammation from bacteria..this makes oxygen transport harder....so add additional aeration if you see this.

Good luck Marie, and don't lose heart...many many people have gone thru this, sometimes all the QT in the world doesn't help, but it does illustrate what happens when you don't QT ....You may have spread the disease from QT..but if you had put that BD into the tank without QT..what you are seeing now would have happened so fast that half the tank would probably be dead already.. your care and QT slowed this to the point that you may be able to catch it soon enough and cure it.

Hth,
al

ps... questions? you know how to reach me:)

[raglanroad]

yeah, Larry.

I think it can be near 100% with the right combo.

The saddleback disease mentioned is a mild form of columnaris, and the deadlier forms give little hope if you don't act quickly, they are over fast.

Marie mentioned it moves fast.

As far as lower temps, many people advise that, but I know too many experienced people now that say raise the temp to 90, to kick up the immune system response, but for this you need clean water and great oxygenation .There is experimental. research giving some proof of the effectiveness of raised temp. in boosting immune response. This is used for short periods like a week or two, not long term, and not over 92 degrees.

I don't remember saying low temps but if I did it was unintentional ! I say raise the temp if you can do heavy aeration and clean well daily.

when you are in the heat of the battle, though, sometimes there is lots of advice...as long as it worked out, what you did wasn't too wrong , eh, Larry?

Dave

[lhforbes12]

Dave,
Agreed, and btw thank you again for your help earlier, I really may have ceased raising discus if I had lost them all.

Larry

[raglanroad]

I thank the domestic angelfish core forum members for helping slaughter so many altums that it became obvious that the combo of drip method of recieving, maracyn one and two and EM and Bactrim and so on fail miserably, and for ranting against change , or considering that something was wrong with that regimen/treatment, until we got real info from exporters, to wholesalers:

Ken of FishFarm, and Ivan of Mikofish of Venezuela, and Oliver Lucanus of Below Water , Frank Aguirre of Aquaprof especially as the main first contact with the experienced guys who were all in the same right direction., and Ed, of Venezuela, who you would have to know to understand how much he knows.

It's actually funny, Larry. On one of Oliver's discus for sale photos, the wild discus looks worse than Marie's fish, and he just gets them well so casually, he is completely sure that most survive. They do. He's got a knack with fish ! I mean fish covered, pasted in white slime. : )

.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave and Larry,

I think maybe it would be best to carry on this conversation by PM.. I think its starting to digress abit from Maries sick fish thread.:) just a bit.
Thanks,
-al

Not that what you are writing isn't interesting or important.....Thanks!

[raglanroad]

Yes, sorry, Al, I think I've been awake a little too long !

[jeep]

I would hit them with salt in the tank Plus furan 2 .... 1 -2 tabelspoons salt per gallon. I and many others including Cary Strong have used salt like this for up to a week. When you do your water changes... replace whatever salt you take out to maintain levels. The Salt that is best used is the non-iodine Kosher salts at super markets...its easiest to measure and not expensive.


I agree here!! I get my salt from Home Depot. Solar Salt in the blue 40# bag for under $4...

[AmberC]

Al you are great! Marie.. you are on the right coarse now I think! I do hope they all make it thru! I am sure they will because your a great fish mom and there are so many great people here helping!

How are they this morning? And how are you? I know how hard it is to see them looking so bad! :(

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_80.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYDUUS)
Amber

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie,
I am guessing that your new discus brought in a strain of pseudomonas and you inadvertently passed it into your tank...Be very , very careeful of the other tank ( not sick)

Got it ~ last night I fed all tanks with a spoon ~ will be a long time before I put my hands in any tanks ~ This affected tank is in the family room ~ all other tanks are here in my office ~ incl the tank with the bug ~ strange how the tank affected is the farthest away ~




wash up with 90% rubbing alcohol before going anywhere near that other tank...bleach all hoses etc.

I have been using bleach on me ~ but I can switch if you think necessary ~ All hoses as we speak have been soaking in bleach/water all night ~ Al if I may .....I have a 10gal Goby tank that I set up when I set up the 10gal qt tank ~ the Gobies are very small and came from the same lfs ~ they are doing fine ~ always were ~

What wld you do re them? wld you be concerned with this tank that is sitting right next to me in my office with my other 55gal of perfect 'bullet proof' fish from Cary and my 35 gal?



On these fish...I would treat with Furan 2 as you were advised. You will need 10 days worth of antibiotic minimum. By day 5 things will start to turn around if the bacteria is responding....continue the medications until all signs of infection are over..,,,generally 10 days will do it.
During this time...large water changes daily before dosing is absolutely critical to remove ammonia and nitrite..I have noted repeatedly that furan 2 can really impact your biofiloter...especially the bacterias that break down nitrite.....so nitrite spikes are common. The methyline blue in Furan 2 will help reduce toxicity there..


Kenny and Dan and Cary and YOU Al are def on the same page here ~ and now so am I ~ I can not thank Dan enough thru all of this ~ And Kenny ~ and now you ~

Four Great Minds Think A Like Yes??

Al I have on order for today delvy more Furan2....I will go for ten days ~ Dan and Kenny told me thru all my tears .....that things cld very well get worse before they get better ~ I have not looked at the tank yet today ~ I feel kinda sick ~

I have a question Al ~ again...I am not sure what time my Furan2 will arrive as it cld be up til 8pm my time ~ I can not do a wc til then as I can not dose ~ Is that going to be okay? To wait?


I would hit them with salt in the tank Plus furan 2 .... 1 -2 tabelspoons salt per gallon. I and many others including Cary Strong have used salt like this for up to a week. When you do your water changes... replace whatever salt you take out to maintain levels.

I agree ~ Kenny covered me on that one ~ I swear after I added that salt Al ~ I really think they felt better and looked better instantly ~ as they most certainly did not like the Furan2~I have tons of Kosher Salt ~



I can only tell you what I would do and my thinking behind it...ultimately the choice is yours..

Yes it is ~ but not to heed advice coming from four Gentleman who have been in this hobby for years would be very foolish ~

...combined with many all the awesome people who were all here for me as well ~ dayum....those tears again ~



pH drops and maintaining it in acidic ranges... helpful yes, but only if you are comfortable with adjusting pH.... Inexperience here could kill your fish or stress them out.

I wouldnt even know how to do mess with the pH Al ~ so I won't even go there ~


[QUOTE-brewmaster15]Whatever you do...lots of water changes... and stay the course with the furan 2...it may look initially like its not working...They look worse in the slime coat because theres a major battle going on there. they hang in the corner or airstream because often times. iF Theres gill inflammation from bacteria..this makes oxygen transport harder....so add additional aeration if you see this.

Good luck Marie, and don't lose heart...many many people have gone thru this, sometimes all the QT in the world doesn't help, but it does illustrate what happens when you don't QT ....You may have spread the disease from QT..but if you had put that BD into the tank without QT..what you are seeing now would have happened so fast that half the tank would probably be dead already.. your care and QT slowed this to the point that you may be able to catch it soon enough and cure it.

I will do lots of wc and continue treatment for 10 days ~ I did add additional aeration cuz they were in the bubble streams ~ must feel good too I suppose ~

I wanted to say that Thank you Al ~ for your time and thoughts on all this ~ and to all who have called and pm'd me ~ and listened to all my tears ~

Well ~ I guess I shall go and check out this tank ~




Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[tpl*co]

Marie,

I have 3 packages Furan 2 right now! I can take them to work with me and we can meet at lunch? I can't get away too long though. Let me know!

Tina

[Kindredspirit]

( will try to get my self in check here and leave my emotions at the door )

[bennyblanco]

the other day i posted something about my fish being sick and they look just like yours i haven't read your hole thread so i don't know what meds your using but i use prazipro and 2 days later my fish was looking better already good luck and stay strong!!!!

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - initially they would look really bad like this, but only for a few days and then with your helping them(WCs and meds) they can bounce back. Follow the above Al's, Dan's and Cary's and everyone's advice here and you will ultimately pull them through! Have strength Marie.

Kenny

[pcsb23]

Hang in there Marie, you are getting great advice.

[Kindredspirit]

Here are my latest pictures ~ I just took them ~ I thought that the biggest was dead ~ but he pops up ~ I want to know why he is the worst ~ I want to know why he was affected so hard ~ I need to know ~


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5228Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5227Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5226Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5222Small.jpg

[brewmaster15]

Marie,
Its hard to say why one fish gets hit harder than others...but often, the larger fish have a harder time fighting these kinds of ailments...

Don't lose heart even though theres a possibility that you may lose some discus.. Its sad, but its part of the learning curve that everyone goes thru.

Stay the course, do your water changes, and treat with the furan as soon as you get it.. You can beat this and with your help, so can your fish.
-al

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
When my fish had this it hit the largest ones the worst, just as Al suggests, I lost my beloved breeding pair, and they were almost the first to go. The smaller they were the fewest symptoms they showed. However my runt, who was the same age as the breeders, is still alive. I also feel I should repeat, a lot of what you are seeing is actually being caused by the Furan 2, I know my fish really did not like having it in their water, once the course was over and the Furan 2 was removed, their appearance improved dramatically with the very first wc.

Larry

[Kindredspirit]

update: I did my first wc and re-dosed ~ Thanks to Tina who so graciously brought some meds to her work and I met here there ....as some of us know how Fed Ex is ~ of course I bet my meds will be in here a timely fashion cuz they are not alive ~ If anyone can think of a dif way to do these wc cuz the bucket is going to kill me for ten days...if not more...I have a little separate hose but it goes into the bucket...it was faster to fill pitcher and empty that into a bucket ~ I can not purchase anything so that is not an option ~ any thoughts?

When I went to Tina's work I was to call her to tell her I was there and she was going to run down the Furan2 ~ I had kids with me and parking was nil ~ I realized that the zero on my cell doesnt work and of course her number had one ~

So I called Frank in Conneticut to call Tina in Cali to meet in SacTown ~ wow ~

And ya know there are friends when you need them cuz the first thing I said to Frank was I need a favor ~ and he said 'name it '....The man didnt even asked me what it was ~

Tina ~ Frank ~ Thanks a Million ~ and everyone here as well ~ Paul ~ bless your heart, Sir ~ for real ~ Marilyn thank you for your call as well ~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[hexed]

Marie,
If Al is right then it could've come from the plants. The sick discus was in a 10 gallon all by itself and was no where near your 55 gallon tank. You added the plants to that tank. PLEASE PLEASE before buying plants at this store again ask on Simply if anyone has any they would like share with you. There are a few people on here that do give away them for the price of shipping, which is most likely cheaper then what you paid at the LFS. They are coming from a clean enviorment with no sickness attached to them. I do not know much about this illness as I have never experienced it before. I wish you luck with the curing time and if you need to talk just "buzz" me
Frank

[Audrey]

I hope your fish all pull through for you, Marie. I am sure they will, you're doing all the right things and have the best of the best helping you.

I just wanted to add that my Red Melon discus gets that same looking white slime on the side of its body from time to time. His appetite will be reduced, and he won't be very active, and he'll do some scratching. I do nothing except keep up with daily 40% w/c, and in a few days the fish is back to normal. All other discus in the tank are unaffected and never get it. So weird...

So anyway, good luck, keep your chin up!!

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Audrey ~


Frank I hear you babe I do ~ but I do not think I will ever purchase another discus or plant from a lfs again ~ I sometimes wonder why did I even qt this fish? Everything is happening like I didnt ~

But I am glad I did and will in the future ~ If I have learned anything on Sd that is to qt for not one day less than 6weeks ~ I have always adhered to that ~

The 2 Pigeon Snakeskin are doing better it seems ~ they were not hit hard at all ~ They may make it ~ but with this disease you just never know as it is so fast! My three Goldenxalbino's are the hardest hit ..

The biggest and fattest and meanest Golden was the last to get hit and the first to go down ~ and he is completely down flat ~ often I think he is dead ~ Just now I was talking with Dan and I went to scoop him out and up he came ~

I am so paranoid to touch my other three tanks that are in here ~ my office ~ and they need a wc ~


My meds just arrrived ~ Tina I will get what I owe you to you soon ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kindredspirit]

I have had many ask me to recap what I did:


* I bought a discus from our lfs ~ brought him home and qt him in my office in a ten gal ~ all sep equipment ~

*I bought four plants to adhere to a fake piece of driftwood for my 55gal tank in the family room ~ from the same lfs ~

* I rinsed and soaked the plants in a tub of hot water with some formalin to knock off any potential threat ~ for two hours ~

* I rinsed them a lot and attached them to my fake driftwood and put them in the 55 gal ~

* Two days later two plants died I removed them ~ that same day the new discus started losing his slime coat ~ I treated him accordingly and wc ~

* Wednesday night Deb and I noticed that first white spot ~ and I noticed that my really big discus was isolated ~ he is too mean to be alone!

* I went to bed and woke up Thursday morning and well ~ the rest is history ~ I called Dan ~ and came here ~

It is important to remember: During this week some time from the day I noticed the new discus was ill ....i failed to wash my hands once and went into the living room and fed that tank ~ I was on the phone with Candy when I did that ~ we both thought .....I can not swear anymore ~


This 55gal tank now infected ....was infected one of two ways: if not both ~ from the plants on the driftwood or when I failed to wash my hands ~


This tank is in the family room alone with no other tanks ~




Live and Learn Please ~


M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Everyone,
I will replace the fish with their siblings if they die. I need help on shipping cost. Any donation will be greatly appreciated.

[traco]

How great is this board, heh?!!:) All this help and info which we can all put to good use.

I don't know for sure, but wouldn't the formalin have got rid of anything off the live plants and the length of time they sat in the solution? For future reference down the road for us all.

I hope they all pick up for you, Marie, and get better soon.

[AmberC]

I hope they all make it thru Marie! They are tough little guys! And since they were so healthy before.. I am hoping that is to your advantage here. That they will be able to fight it.
Amber

[brewmaster15]

Dan,
Thats very generous of you, hopefully unnecessary...but if it is necessary..I will help with the shipping.

-al

ps.. marie... you can use a garden hose to drain the tank to a toilet or outside.

[candyl70]

Count me in to help for shipping as well. Don't worry tho Marie.... I really think you caught it soooo fast, and that they will be perking up soon. ;)

Dan... can you be any sweeter I ask ya??? :angel:

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Everyone,
I will replace the fish with their siblings if they die. I need help on shipping cost. Any donation will be greatly appreciated.


What have you done Daniel? Seriously tho....


Candy ~ you are worse off than me girl what are you doing? I don't think so. no.


Al ~ Let us hope it isnt necessary and ......I am without absolutely anything to say for once....


I can not think of when I have been so tired ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif


ps...I will be calling you Danny xo

[Kindredspirit]

ps.. marie... you can use a garden hose to drain the tank to a toilet or outside.



I didnt see that part ~ a garden hose .....I wld have a hard time getting the syphon to start tho Al ....it doesnt work well for me unless it is hooked up to a sink like the python...


Def worth a try tho .....it could be a long two weeks ~




Thank you, Sir ~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[AmberC]

The "auto-start" syphones.. yeah.. those are real hard to get started... unless you suck on the other end of the tube.. and really.. for some reason.. I cant see you doing that Marie! lol

Its sure not fun when you get a mouthful of tank water! EEK
Amber

[Kindredspirit]

How great is this board, heh?!!:) All this help and info which we can all put to good use.

I don't know for sure, but wouldn't the formalin have got rid of anything off the live plants and the length of time they sat in the solution? For future reference down the road for us all.

I hope they all pick up for you, Marie, and get better soon.


Thanks Barb ~ you wld think that the formalin wld have knocked off any nasties that wld have been on those plants.....

Last night Barb they were swimming around as opposed to lying flat and crowding/huddling ~ I have not ventured into that part of the house yet this day ~ but....soon I shall ~


Thanks Amber!


M~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_14_50.gif

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
Al's hose idea is a good one IMO. It' really is a lot easier to do than most people think. Take the end and submerge as much as you can (at least 3') making sure you haven't trapped any air, hold your thumb over the hole, pull 2' or so out of the tank and then release your thumb. I can usually do this now on the first try, but it sometimes takes me as many as 4 tries before the water flows.

Larry

ps, admittedly this is a whole lot easier with a Python since you can see whether or not air is trapped.

[brewmaster15]

It can also be done simply by hooking the hose up to the sink faucet..,
place the other end in the tank... Turn on the water to fill the hose.... then with the hose submerged in the tank...disconnect the faucet and place your thumb over the hole..

move that end to where you want to drain it and remove your thumb..As long as the drain point is lower than the tank..gravity will do all the work.
HTH,
al

[Debbie]

Marie, this is terrible those fish looked just terrible, those fish looked great the night before, and that little white spot didn't look like anything, I have had small white spots like that that ended up being nothing, don't beat yourself up about it. The reason that the browns look worse is that the pigeon blood gene is a hardier gene.

[Kindredspirit]

( DAY THREE ~ )



Hey Guys!

Look an exclamation mark...lol! I think we all may survive this ordeal ~ me ....the discus....my daughter....! I know they still look bad ...and i am so scared to look at this tank first thing in the morning so my daughter does it for me ~ so she can cry first... but today ...today guys they look better! The large Goldenx that was hit last but hardest was up and he ate! So many times I thought he was dead yesterday ~ it was not a good last two days at all ~

The Pb's are doing good! Better than the others ~ and just a little while ago I was telling Deb and Candy that they fought over a worm! How KooL is that I ask you? For some reason they were not hit so hard~

Deb ~ thank you for coming on over to post ~ it means the world ~ you are soooooooo full of knowledge and Al knew what he was doing making you a Mod at Sc ~ I love you woman~


I used to hate when they would fight ~ now I would give anything ~

I wanted to note to that I turned on the light for an instant and they really do not like that light ~ not mixed with this med ~ please hit the lights when treating with Furan2~

Dan ~ Kenny ~ Al ~ tell me that knowing this disease as you guys do ... won't take a turn for the worse? Tell me that the worst is over?? Or not ~ and yesterday was the ultimate worst ~I thought some were gone ~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

Look Dan... Kenny ~ my fav here! The biggest.. the one I thought was gone....:)
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5260Small.jpg


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5252Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5251Small.jpg

This picture was the first thing ~ we saw today~ but when they saw us...it was a good thing
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5239Small.jpg

[April]

glad to hear marie. you have now been completely initiated into discus keeping. : )
most of us have been through it at one time or another..your not alone.

[tpl*co]

Good News! I think you may be over the worst of it, keep up the meds for the full course :).

Take care
Tina

[AmberC]

Marie thats great! I am glad they are showing such a big improvement already! They are fighters!! :D

Amber

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Guys ~


I wanted to clarify some things If I may ~ First here are my water parameters:

ammonia=0

NitrItes= 0

NitrAtes= 10 ( almost 20 )

pH= 7.2


Some questions I had is that my pH is always always 7.6 ~ even from the tap ~ But now it is 7.2 ~ Does that say something? Does tap change?

Also ~ I thought that Furan2 was going to impact my filter but apparently not ~ so this is a good thing?

I wanted to ask as well ~ I can not remember what Kenny said in re to cleaning out my filters ~ I think that he said to make sure I do that cuz they are or will be covered in all the slime coat? I could be so wrong here ~ but I did clean them out today and they were hella slimy!

How often shld I do this during the 10 day treatment? Also I shld continue with the salt every day as well?

They are doing so much better I wish you cld all see! No more hiding ~ only slowing down a bit ~ however.....the brown ones are a very black and they are doing such an odd behavior in that they are all what appears to the eye....kissing the heaters! the heaters are in the vertical position and they are all lined up and kissing the heaters! I hope they have not lost it during all this~

~ I know I shld feed minimal but they are soooooooooo hungry guys and I fed them a little fbw just now and the lil sh!ts stole the cube from me! They all devoured it before I could get it back ~ When do you think I could feed normally?

So..........any thoughts on all this would be greatly appreciated ~


Tina ~ April ~ Amber ~ Thank you guys for always poppin back in to check!

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[marilyn1998]

Marie,

WIth your PH going down a bit, I am thinking it is the Furan2 affecting the KH gh of the water. This "buffering" will casue the PH to go down. And it will take a few days for the biofilters to show changes.
Just keep your eye on it. No new additions to the tank until it is stable again.
Any spike in ammonia or nitrite will be detoxified with the salt and Prime. Maybe detoxed isnt the right word, but it will help them ride it out.
I would continue to do dialy WC's, and just watch the filter. I wouldnt clean it daily unless someone else with more knowledge said to. I Would DEFINITELY clean it well after the treatment is over, tho.

MY opinion on feeding is, if they want it, feed it. Just make sure that all gets eaten and the WC's are there to help with the leftovers. I BELEIVE, (Again I can be wrong), that it is said to feed lightly because they may not eat it and that can foul the water causing more probs.

Glad they are feeling better!!!! Chin up! You are doing great!

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Marie - glad to see the exclamation mark by you. :-)

Now if this is only the 3rd day I wouldn't say they are out of the woods yet...but if you keep doing daily WCs and redose Furan-2; replenish the salt content that was taken out; and make sure the inside of the tank are clean(including sponges), I think you'll be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel very soon. Matter of fact I think you are seeing it now because some slight improvement are noted by you today.

During the first few days your fish would produce excessive slimes. And most of these slimes usually end up getting sucked onto the sponges. They are ground for bacteria so getting rid of these slimes would decrease the chance of having a bacteria bloom. Same goes for the inside glasses. I was once told by a very knowledgable person(a member here) that you can actually see your fish being "happier" after you clean the sponges and glass during the course of treatment, and I agree.

Also like Al said earlier - now that you're putting your hands into this tank be VERY, EXTREMELY careful when you have to deal with the other tanks. But I think you would know better now Marie?

Keep your head up Marie, worst days will be over soon(like in a week or so I think)

Best wishes as always,

Kenny

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Al - a quick question for you friend. Since Aeromonas Sobria is so contagious and quite common among freshwater fishes(including Discus), in your opinion, which antibiotics do you think will have the most success in dealing with it TODAY? If for the prevention of misuse purposes you cannot disclose the info I totally understand. (please feel free to drop in Mr. Andrew Soh!) :-)

Thanks in advance Al.

Kenny

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Kenny,

Many broad-spectrum antibiotics can help to fight Aeromonas S. They include Tetracycline, Furan, and many other families of antibiotic.

The problem is once it is in their system (body not water), it is hard to eliminate. Endobacteria infection is harder and especially A.S. can stay inside for long period without doing much harm.....or doing harm slowly in long term. By the time it is doing harm, it already establish a foothold in the discus system and is very hard. It is not like the opportunistic strain of aeromonas hydrophila that comes with a big bang and destruction.

Marie, sorry to come into this thread this late. My sincere apology.

I think what your discus is infested with are parasites...main culprits are protozoans and of course without doubt, the presence of bacteria as secondary infection.

Someone said it is costia.....and I believe it is one of the main culprits too. Antibiotics can in many cases suppress the activites of costia and some other protozoans but will not eliminate any. Therefore using antibiotics in such an infection in fact does not work but only suppress...thus it seems to work, yet taking awefully long time to recover..usually accompanied by some mortalities.......if not mass.....

Some will have over 90% recovery due to their own immunity against the infestation while others stay sick and slimy. That is why you see some recover, some still with the fins infected (translucent) while others in the same tank still sickly and slimy. If you keep on using antibiotics discriminately, you will be very discouraged in the future.

"You don't treat a leech infestation on your body with antibiotics do you?"

Whether it is from the plants, or anything from recent change, the ability to ensure they stay healthy and preventing your existing stock from falling sick is very important.

So, prophylactic treatment is very important and of course, quarantine.

Anyway, since your existing stock is affected and are sick, don't worry. Make a prophylactic treatment...........BUT NOT WITH ANTIBIOTIC (by the way, the sliminess is not due to columnaris and neither is it Aeromonas sobrio).

The recommended treatment that I prefer as a first line of defense is Potassium Permanganate @ 2mg per liter of water....(check with past postings). This treatment eliminates(oxidizes) all exposed parasites (ecto in the water or on objects) including bacteria that you may accidentally introduce to your tanks. You can also use PP to disinfect your plants.

PP is very safe but make sure to make 100% WC 24 hours after dosing and retreat on alternate day. Though pH 7 and below is best, treatment done at 7.5 with 2mg is safe too.

Only 3 x PP treatments fails do you resort to antibiotic treatment.

Marie, hope your discus recover fast.

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[Kenny's Discus]

Thanks for the thorough explaination Mr. Soh it's very much appreciated!

Take care,
Kenny

[Andrew Soh]

You are welcome,

and I hope that helps.

Take care,
Andrew:angel:

[Kindredspirit]

Okay ~ okay......


Andrew ~ thank you for stopping by ~ I am honored ~


Kenny directed me to your info re this in your book that I have and well....I was confused ~ I appreciate your presence here ~

However ~ Parasites? wow ~ But they have been fine for 8 months and parasites can attack as quick and hard as this did? I am so not doubting you, Sir ~ please do not think that ~

The need to understand here is great that is all ~


The moment I awoke and discovered these discus in such a state I telephoned Dan ~ the very first thing he did tell me to do was PP ~ Actually that is what he said he would do if it was him ~


However ~ I felt time was of the essence and I didnt have any and was not sure if I could obtain it ~ and they were going down fast Andrew ~ really fast ~

I have hit them with Furan2 for three days now and the dif in these fish is remarkable ~ but you say it may not last.....

You say it is not Columnari or Aeromonas Sobrio ~ and do not hit them with antibiodic ~


I'm thinking now that I shld finish the Furan2 for 7 more days then...hit them with PP? I have to put this out there and say that I am not sure I can do that ~ I have never used PP and quite frankly the stuff scares me ~ a lot ~ but I certainly do not want this 'bug' to rear itz ugly head in my home again ~


Andrew ~ Thank You, Sir for your time and input ~


Kenny ~ thank you thank you thank you!!! xo



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[brewmaster15]

Marie,

Without a lab report you can not know if this is parasitic or bacterial as a main culprit.. no one can tell for sure.. Its the hard part about trying to help someone here...its almost like detective work. Alls that anyone can do is guess. Parasitic feedings can open fish up to secondary bacterial infections by any number of bacterias, so in that Andrew may be right in his guess...it is very common and I have experienced that before in a major way.

I would be very surprised though if its parastic here based on the timeline and events...You brought that fish home from a LFS... and it was quarantined...separate room....It breaks down and dies.. a few days latter your other fish in a tank break down of what looks very similar....I can only guess we have a bacteria based on what has happened . I could very well be wrong on the primary cause..The two events could be unrelated and coincidental.

Marie, when you set up the QT tank for the LFS discus...where did you get the biofilter?.. Did you take filter material from any existing tanks? and if so was it the tank that currently has sick fish?... This would help rule out where at least where the ailment originated.

You have started an antibacterial treatment and the fish are responding. It is not wise, IMO, to stop that treatment. Whether a bacterial infection is primary or secondary it is still a major concern and can kill the fish if established. I would finish the coarse of medication you have started...If the problem is caused by a bacteria and not a parasite and the furan 2 works...great.Problem solved. If the problem is a parasite and a secondary bacteria... you clear up the secondary infection and then deal with the parasites thru PP, formalin, clout or any number of treatments.


We can only guess what the causes are in cases like this, and if we try something thats working count ourselves lucky.



If it were me I would stay the course. Deal with this systematically. If the fish continue to recover stay with the medication that seems to be working...if they don't respond to the med...than I would go with salt dips and PP or whatever antiparasitic you chose.

As precaution, assume parasites may be involved and start an antiprotozoan treatment after....

hth,
al

[Kindredspirit]

Marie,

Without a lab report you can not know if this is parasitic or bacterial as a main culprit.. no one can tell for sure.. Its the hard part about trying to help someone here...its almost like detective work. Alls that anyone can do is guess.

I totally hear you re this Al ~ and you are right in that all anyone can do is guess in diagnosing problems in this fashion ~ I so appreciate all guesses/advice/opinions/ and I am learning so much ~




I would be very surprised though if its parastic here based on the timeline and events...You brought that fish home from a LFS... and it was quarantined...separate room....It breaks down and dies.. a few days latter your other fish in a tank break down of what looks very similar....I can only guess we have a bacteria based on what has happened . I could very well be wrong on the primary cause..The two events could be unrelated and coincidental.

Yes Al ~ you are correct and I think it is important to note that the 55gal that broke down (that looks very similar to the qt tank ) is in the other room ~ alone ~

I was thinking the same thing too in that perhaps the two events are unrelated and coincidental ~ that could be very possible I suppose ~ but ~ this 55gal that went down ~ in a completely dif room ~ well ~ there were no signs of any prob and again I ask how could parasites attack on a dime like this ~ so fast and so hard?? I do not know everything ....hell I do not know anything ~ but of the time I have spent here have I missed reading such incidents? Some say that how all this came about is of little importance but just focus on the treatment ~ but I could so do this again??

I need to know what happened and how ~ best guess scenario~ anyways ~





Marie, when you set up the QT tank for the LFS discus...where did you get the biofilter?.. Did you take filter material from any existing tanks? and if so was it the tank that currently has sick fish?... This would help rule out where at least where the ailment originated.

I did take sponges from an exsiting tank ~ approx three weeks before I purchased this discus ...I took out a thread here asking how long before sponges wld be cycled ~ I was planning on setting up a Goby tank ~ I was told approx 2-3 weeks ~ so I took some sponges and added them to existing tanks ~ but when it was time to take them and put them in the 10 gal I was setting up I couldnt remember where I put them ~ I figured it didnt matter as it was past two weeks and all sponges were cycled ~

I waited three weeks approx and went to the lfs ~ and I bought the discus as well ~ big mistake ~ huge ~

I do believe Al that I took exsisting sponges from a tank here ....in my office ~ either off of the 55gal or the 35 gal with my Angel and Rams ~ I think it was the 55gal with Cary's and AB's discus ~ which have never ever in the year I have had them had a thing wrong ~

It wld make sense to me that is what I did as these tanks are in my office next to the 10gal qt tank ~ I do not have many sponges in the filters of the now ill 55gal in the living room ~ so I do not think I would take any from there ~

But honestly I do not recall ~



You have started an antibacterial treatment and the fish are responding. It is not wise, IMO, to stop that treatment.

I think I shld continue as well ~ I mean these fish were on the verge of death Andrew ~ Im telling ya ~ many times I put in a scooper to take one or two out as I thought they were dead! Lying there covered in crap and black ~ never have I ever seen such ill looking fish ~ it was devastating ~ I almost culled one of them ~ my hand was in the tank as I couldnt take it anymore ~ there were so suffering ~

But thanks to some wonderful people I walked away ~ I continued with the Furan2 and they have bounced back incredibly fast ~
I can not see in my hearts of hearts to stop now with the antibodic treament ~



clear up the secondary infection and then deal with the parasites thru PP, formalin, clout or any number of treatments.

I think this sounds like a really good plan ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Elcid]

Hi Marie:

I'm so sorry to see you go through all this with your fish. They've grown so much :)....It's great that ur working so hard at this hobby. Kudos to u! :)

Guyz, don't forget that we always attribute what happenned to discus to parasites or bacteria but that's not entirely true. It could easily be some chemical in Marie's tap water that caused the discus to have an allergic reaction, at first scratching followed by excessive slime production. Sometimes the slime production can be so severe that the fish can't breath and lay flat on the bottom. That can bring down discus fast and furious and the salt/antibiotic together with water changes may have helped to relieve the condition that Marie experienced.

HTH,
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

It could easily be some chemical in Marie's tap water that caused the discus to have an allergic reaction
HTH,
Sandeep


Perhaps ~ however....usually if the problem is water related ~ esp right after a wc ~ the fish start trippin right away ~

However ~ the night before we noticed the first initial spot ~ then the next morning is when they all starting going down ~

A wc had not been done in over 24 hours ~ as I was working and I had some company for dinner ~


Thank You Sandeep! Good to see you again!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Hey guys ~


Just wanted to share that I was just reading the bottle of Furan-2 I rec'vd and it clearly states on the label that 'this medication will not harm the biological filter' ~

I guess not since all my parameters are intact ~ one less thing to worry about ~

Also to pl wear gloves or wash hands after ~ 'this product is know to the State Of California to cause cancer'..... how come always in Cali things are known to cause cancer?



M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[brewmaster15]

Hi Marie,


Just wanted to share that I was just reading the bottle of Furan-2 I rec'vd and it clearly states on the label that 'this medication will not harm the biological filter'

don't believe it!:) I've known too many people , myself included that has experienced otherwise. Often you will see a nitrite spike.

hth,
al

[tpl*co]

How are they doing today Marie?

Tina

[Debbie]

I agree with Al, I have seen the fish and they look quite a bit better than the first pic. The excess slime production and sloughing off sounds bacterial. Fow now the treatment is working so I would continue with it, then if they take a bad turn, treat for parasites. In my 25 years + of discus keeping I haven't heard of a parasite infestation moving this fast....Al why aren't you writing discus keeping book?

[Andrew Soh]

Sandeep is right that chemicals in the water and even long exposure to fairly cold temperature can trigger and cause excessive mucus secretion and with this mucus comes parasite infection. That is why PP treatment is good and immediate as it oxidizes organics and micro-organisms (parasites)....and once the perimeter of the water is adjusted back to normal, the discus will recover very quickly.

Parasites in definition include fungi, bacteria,viruses, protozoa and worms. And as Al mentioned which I totally agree, it is hard to identify without sending to lab for autopsy....but how many discus do we have as hobbyists...to sacrifies before we learn what parasite caused this? And how many days will it take to get the report? Something has to be done immediately.

Therefore, I am just recommending ....not insisting.....that Marie should do a PP treatment. In fact, I am suggesting to all....not insisting....that during times when there is no sickness or problem with your discus to practice prophylactic treatment with PP. Only with the many trials and practises can you be confident to make accurate treatment with PP during time of discus trouble or parasite infestation.

Marie, you can continue with your Furan treatment since it is working for you. I would not recommend otherwise. Hope you understand what my intention was in suggesting PP treatment. It is cheap, fast acting and a frontline defense against ectoparasites.

Take care,

Andrew:angel:

[Elcid]

Hi Marie:

Did these guests of yours look at the discus tank that subsequently had the problems? Did they admire your discus? Looked at them with great interest? Hmm, I know this is not scientific but everytime I have someone come Oooh, Ahhaa at my fish, then immediately my best discus fall sick :mad:

thanks,
Sandeep

[candyl70]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_3_1v.gif

Are you kidding Sandeep???

[raglanroad]

Hi, Andrew ! Good to hear from you. I wasn't forgetting the PP, I have purchased 10 lb., after realizing there are so many targets one can eliminate with PP. I just store it separate from formaldehyde, 'cause I've heard about a risk of explosion when combined somehow.

I regard both Furan 2 and PP as such broad spectrum, against just about anything living , ( possibly repeating after certain period to kill new hatchlings), that it is much preferable to use these than to spend valuable resources and time, and do the figgerin' later about the organisms responsible. I would always be OK with killing the biofilter and sterilizing everything with PP. Furan 2 seems to be a toss-up, whether the people have filter failure or not.

regarding the biofilter and Furan 2 : I think the post by Loverboy is bang on. One point he makes is during this medication and slime process, the prefilters or whatever are going to be a mess.

Adding to that, I think that when filters get clogged with slime , there is some apparent bio filter failure.

It's my thinking that the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals people may not be incorrect, even though many people may experience filter problems coincidentally. So if the water turns bad, I wouldn't blame the Furan 2 without further investigation.

[Debbie]

OMG Marie it is all my fault! I feel so terrible now...What can I do to make it right with you?

[Kindredspirit]

Well letz see...... http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_11_52.gif





Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kindredspirit]

during times when there is no sickness or problem with your discus to practice prophylactic treatment with PP.


So when they are NOT sick Andrew ~ we shld hit them with PP? I do not understand ~ some wld not hit their discus with salt much less PP for prohylactic treatment ~ make me understand Andrew? How often would one do this? You must know of which you speak I do not doubt this ~ I wish I could get into your head ~



Marie, you can continue with your Furan treatment since it is working for you. I would not recommend otherwise. Hope you understand what my intention was in suggesting PP treatment. Take care,

Andrew:angel:

I will do that, Sir ~ They really are looking better Andrew ~ I wish I could talk to you ~ I do understand your intentions make no mistake ~ and I so appreciate all your help here!


Thanks for always being attentive to my threads Andrew...

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie,



don't believe it!:) I've known too many people , myself included that has experienced otherwise. Often you will see a nitrite spike.

hth,
al



No ~ I certainly will not now ~ Deb told me the same thing recently ~ having said that tho Al .....I just tested and all looks good so far...still ~
But I am on day five almost and you do not think it will remain so? Still have five more days ~ thanks for the heads up!



M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Marie - it's so good to hear you're seeing daily improvements from your fishes! You are at the crossroad where some ppl would relax and don't finish the whole treatment, primarily because their fish might be looking so much "better". Just remember to keep dosing it for the whole 10-12 days regardless of their appearance.

Keep up this HARD work...for a few more days only. :-)

Have a good one Marie.
Kenny

[brewmaster15]

Marie,
My guess on your Biofilter is that its remaining stable because you are doing such large water changes... If you were to decrease these...I think it might be a problem for the filter.....with that in mind, be sure to keep up with good water changes at least a week after all meds have stopped.

Andrew,
I agree wholeheartedly in the value of PP... Its on my shelf and part of my prophylactic treatment for parasites ( flukes in particular). Thanks for posting your advice.
take care,
al

[Kindredspirit]

Keep up this HARD work...for a few more days only. :-)

Have a good one Marie.
Kenny


It is hard Kenny dayumit! I was so tired yesterday and I had to do a 'by hand wc' on this tank! I wld never not do it tho ....I used to whine about how long it took me to drain and fill up this tank with the pyhon...cuz for some reason our water pressure is horrible in the kitchen as opposed to the bathroom ~ all the tanks in my office I can drain and fill so quick Kenny! But this one ....was soooooooooo slow ~


And now? With this little self-sucker-upper and buckets.....omg.... takes f o r e v e r !!!!!!!!!!

But I thought this tank was clean before.... It is spotless now Kenny! I will post some pics today of my fishes ( is that a word? )



Thanks Al and Kenny!



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_13_106.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

You're most welcome Marie.

You see there's a reason why we're giving you advices here - when your fish recover they'll be happier...and that makes you(our Marie) happier..and then we get to see less MAD smileys from you. So yes we have an agenda Marie lol.

A big joke ok? :-)

Seriously I think you're doing a wonderful job in saving your fish. If I were your fish I'll be grateful to see you do these massive WCs for me for the last few days. I wish you and your fish the best in the coming days!

Take care Marie, now go do your WC!

Kenny

[Kindredspirit]

Take care Marie, now go do your WC!

Kenny


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_30.gif


( sometimes I think if I hear that word one more time I shall just lose it! )

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Mr. Big Joker ..... http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_4.gif


Kenny ~ You and Al have mentioned more than once 'massive wc' ....I am only doing 50% every day right during this treatment..... I mean I do that every day regardless ~

Shld I be doing more IYO?

( i can not believe we can joke on this thread now ~ there was a time I did not think I would be back ~ ever ~ feels good yes? All the times you heard me cry Kenny....remember? You must think I'm such a baby )



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie I think if you hear that word one more time you should just lose it...or go do another water change.

ok I'm outta here now!!! RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

:-0

Kenny

[Kenny's Discus]

Hey Mr. Big Joker ..... http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_4.gif


Kenny ~ You and Al have mentioned more than once 'massive wc' ....I am only doing 50% every day right during this treatment..... I mean I do that every day regardless ~

Shld I be doing more IYO?

( i can not believe we can joke on this thread now ~ there was a time I did not think I would be back ~ ever ~ feels good yes? All the times you heard me cry Kenny....remember? You must think I'm such a baby )



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

OK I'm back. lol

Yes it's good to see that we can joke here...I think that's always a good sign in a disease section thread. And no I don't think you were a baby because these fish that we keep are lives and friends that we're grown so attached to. So I know many of us can relate to how you felt when that first happened. It is IMO totally normal and logical and it shows you care.

I think 50% and redose should be acceptable IMO. But I'm no expert so I'll let our Dr. Al answer that.

I'm running again now.

Kenny

[brewmaster15]

DR. AL?

Lol Kenny...Hardly a DR. Just a Lowly Forum Owner.:)

Marie,
as long as you aren't seeing ammonia or Nitrite spikes, what you are doing is fine..If you see ammonia or nitrite..increase the volume of WC or its frequency.

hth,
al

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Boys!!




Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Elcid]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_3_1v.gif

Are you kidding Sandeep???


OMG Candy:

I seem to remember that Marie's fish became sick right after you visited her??? Marie, it's time to build that fish room and keep them under lock and key when you get visitors :) Just kidding Marie, but what I said does always happen to me no joke!

Hope your fish are feeling much better today. Be patient with them, recovery is a slow and steady process.

take care,
Sandeep

[pcsb23]

Marie,

Looks like you have done good here. Well done indeed madam. I am proud of you girl!

One word of caution though, you are not out of the woods yet, so keep doing as you are and hopefully all will be well. I've got my fingers crossed!

[Kindredspirit]

( Paul you sweet sweet man )


DAY FIVE:

Hey Guys ~

I had some questions if I may ~ today I seem to see the presence of slime coat again ~ On the Golden Albinos x ..again ~ they def are not doing worse tho ~

I feel discouraged tho cuz I guess I want some def answers and I know there aren't any ~

I wonder if they will ever be the way they were? Can someone answer that for me? Honestly? Am I looking at a prob w/ them on a continuing basis? Been there done that ~

Are they going to completely bounce back? Al? Kenny? Andrew? Dan? I know you guys MUST have a prognosis yes? Best case scenario boys...please??

Also if someone cld answer this for me as well ...if one day I do not have time for wc shld I add Furan2 anyways? I have not missed one yet and do not plan too ~ but it may happen so I need to know the best course of action to take on that ~ Also I wonder if I am feeding too little as at times they are sooooooo hungry? Can I give a little more ...more often?
I just took these pics and they pretty much sux ~ I am in a hurry as I must jam to work and this green water is on my nerves too~

Sorry If I sound like a witch guys ~


M ~ :(



http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5889Small.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_5891Small.jpg

[lhforbes12]

( Paul you sweet sweet man )


DAY FIVE:

Hey Guys ~

I had some questions if I may ~ today I seem to see the presence of slime coat again ~ On the Golden Albinos x ..again ~ they def are not doing worse tho ~

I feel discouraged tho cuz I guess I want some def answers and I know there aren't any ~

I wonder if they will ever be the way they were? Can someone answer that for me? Honestly? Am I looking at a prob w/ them on a continuing basis? Been there done that ~

Are they going to completely bounce back? Al? Kenny? Andrew? Dan? I know you guys MUST have a prognosis yes? Best case scenario boys...please??

Also if someone cld answer this for me as well ...if one day I do not have time for wc shld I add Furan2 anyways? I have not missed one yet and do not plan too ~ but it may happen so I need to know the best course of action to take on that ~ Also I wonder if I am feeding too little as at times they are sooooooo hungry? Can I give a little more ...more often?
I just took these pics and they pretty much sux ~ I am in a hurry as I must jam to work and this green water is on my nerves too~

Sorry If I sound like a witch guys ~


M ~ :(





Marie,
You'll notice that I have not been posting to this thread lately, mainly because you have Al, Kenny, Andrew, and Dan helping, any one them has forgotten more that I will ever know, plus I truly believe the old adage "too many cooks spoil the pot". However I have been following this thread closely.
As you know, I just went through something like this myself. I can tell you in all honesty that my fish are now healthy, eating like pigs, have regained all of their color and are acting... well they are acting like their old selves again. Just keep hanging in there.

Larry

[Andrew Soh]

First of all, Marie....Furan 2 is an antibiotic concoction with something else but the main ingredient is still under furanace family. I have to make my statement clear. I am not saying the Furan 2 is not good. In fact it is very effective against certain bacteria. I am just saying that antibiotic should not be used as a frontline against infection.

As I have mentioned earlier.....it may not be bacteria and you have some success because the ingredients (including the antibiotic) inside the Furan 2 is able to suppress the activities of other parasites...the like of protozoa.

When a discus darkens and with excessive mucus secretion,...we cannot immediately conclude that is is a bacteria infection. In my opinion, it can be anything so long as that thing whether is the water, temperature, chemical, bacteria or other parasites is irritating the discus epidermis, triggering excessive production of mucus.

Some hobbyists' discus only had bacteria infection and after using Furanace based drug, their discus recovered thus making them to believe that excessive mucus secretion is caused by bacteria.....which is wrong. And the next time when someone else has a situation similar to them, they will insist that it is a definite bacteria infection and advice antibiotic....and when it did not work 'Perfectly', they may even advice longer bath and/or stronger bath. End of the day, it is a waste of time and money and further to that, excessively long bath and high dose with certain antibiotics can cause sterilization.

But in the case of water or chemical, the effect will be across the board for all the discus in the same affected tank. In other word all the discus will slime together and generally will die together within a short period if you do not effect a change.

So, in your case Marie, once a while ...some get better while one or two of the others get worse,....and while most of them are trying to recuperate, one or two again fall sick again.

This simply means two things

1) Whatever the bacteria inside the tank (if it is the culprit...which I don't think so) is getting resistant to the Furan 2.

or

2) It is not solely a bacteria infection after all...or at least the bacteria is not the main culprit....and that is why the Furan 2 is only able to suppress part of the problem but was unable to eliminate.

Solution:

Stop furan 2 treatment, Wc 100% and treat with PP for 24 hours.

After the 24 hours treatment, make 100% WC and raise temperature to 30c. Forget about the filter media...treat together. You can reseed later.

This is my suggestion.

*Thanks Al, for your understanding.

Take care Marie,

Andrew

[Kindredspirit]

Marie,
You'll notice that I have not been posting to this thread lately, mainly because you have Al, Kenny, Andrew, and Dan helping, any one them has forgotten more that I will ever know, plus I truly believe the old adage "too many cooks spoil the pot". However I have been following this thread closely.
As you know, I just went through something like this myself. I can tell you in all honesty that my fish are now healthy, eating like pigs, have regained all of their color and are acting... well they are acting like their old selves again. Just keep hanging in there.

Larry

I am glad you are viewing closely Larry ~ more than you could know ~ Your continued support and pm's are very much appreciated as well ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[tpl*co]

I'm in the same boat as Larry :). Was just reading some of the last few pages and I agree with Al. Finish the Furan. Could it be they had some parasite and a recent change or a bacterial bug brought on by the new fish "sent them over the edge" since they were already weakened by a parasite? Was anybody flashing or scratching before?

Hopefully everybody is doing better today!

BTW, seen the fish where yours came from and they are notorious for having hitch hikers! (parasites and such).

Tina

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Tina ~

Deb and I were there on Sunday ~ they are beautiful you have to admit yes? And I rec'vd full credit ~ plus I ret that driftwood too ~ Deb gave me an awesome piece Tina ~ look for it soon!

No none of my discus had parasites or flashing or itching ...NOTHING! They were in great health as far as i could see ~ I had wormed them before and nothing ~

I notice every little 'hic-up' in my tanks ~ as I noticed that one tiny white spot when all this began ~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Solution:

Stop furan 2 treatment, Wc 100% and treat with PP for 24 hours.

After the 24 hours treatment, make 100% WC and raise temperature to 30c. Forget about the filter media...treat together. You can reseed later.

This is my suggestion.

*Thanks Al, for your understanding.

Take care Marie,

Andrew


Andrew ~

I have read your posts numerous times and I can not thank you enough for all your time and thoughts re this mess ~ as usual you are always there for me ~

However ~ here is what I have decided to do:

* I will finish my Furan-2 treatment as today is the 6th day and I will go 10-12 days with that ~

* If need be I will hit them with Formalin when appropriate ~

Andrew in retrospect I think that if I had hit them with PP ...three of them wld have died as they were so ill and weak and completely down ~ I needed to strengthen them first ~ to give them a fighting chance ~


I may live to regret this ~ time shall tell ~ and I will learn ~



One can only hope ....I will learn ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[tpl*co]

Yes, I was there on Saturday, and they did look good in their tanks. Was still debating which tank to get :). I'm glad they did right with you :).

I think you are doing the right thing. Hopefully everything will work out OK. Remember formalin is murder on the filters, IT WILL AFFECT THEM! And the fish may be affected too. Not something to use before you go to bed and turn off the lights. Also, not something you'd want to breathe either (formaldehyde, known as a cancer causing agent and can get into the air).

Are you still feeding them? If it were me I would and keep up on the water changes.

Tina

[pcsb23]

Andrew ~


I have read your posts numerous times and I can not thank you enough for all your time and thoughts re this mess ~ as usual you are always there for me ~


However ~ here is what I have decided to do:


* I will finish my Furan-2 treatment as today is the 6th day and I will go 10-12 days with that ~


* If need be I will hit them with Formalin when appropriate ~


Andrew in retrospect I think that if I had hit them with PP ...three of them wld have died as they were so ill and weak and completely down ~ I needed to strengthen them first ~ to give them a fighting chance ~



I may live to regret this ~ time shall tell ~ and I will learn ~




One can only hope ....I will learn ~




Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif
Marie, you have taken a very important step here. You have received some excellent advice, from Andrew & Al and many others (including Larry, Dave, April & Kenny sorry if I forgot some). You clearly have thought this through and chosen which advice to follow, rightly or wrongly. The important thing is you have made that choice. No matter the outcome, you can at least take strength from this, it also shows that you are learning (even if you don't think so!). I think it was April that said
you have now been completely initiated into discus keeping and she is right! Very well done and I really hope it works out well.

[lhforbes12]

Marie, you have taken a very important step here. You have received some excellent advice, from Andrew & Al and many others (including Larry, Dave, April & Kenny sorry if I forgot some). You clearly have thought this through and chosen which advice to follow, rightly or wrongly. The important thing is you have made that choice. No matter the outcome, you can at least take strength from this, it also shows that you are learning (even if you don't think so!). I think it was April that said and she is right! Very well done and I really hope it works out well.

Paul,
You did miss someone... you

Larry

[bennyblanco]

Marie like i said before your fish looks just like my fish did a couple of weeks ago,they were hiding and they turn black, i treated with prazipro and 2 days later they were fine!!! so if your fish don't look good by know i will treat with some prazipro!!!just trying to help like you did once!!! good luck!!!

[raglanroad]

If furan killed your biofilter, it would show real fast in your readings. So even with massive WC, you would be aware of the problem. WC would not mask this if you test, would it? Test before WC, to be even more sure. Keep testing, the slime may eventually stop your filter from performing well.

[tpl*co]

What about me Paul? *sniff* sniff*

Tina

[pcsb23]

What about me Paul? *sniff* sniff*

Tina
How could I forget you :( forgive me :)

[Elcid]

Hey Marie:

Ur in good hands here but I just wanted to remind you about something that although seems trivial I believe to be very important: keep ur tank and sponge very clean. Everyday, squeeze out the sponge in tank water until it runs clear (well nearly clear) and don't forget to paper towel all glass and accessories before you change water. If you haven't been doing it do it right away and I'd bet that by tomorrow morning ur fish will perk up a bit!

take care,
Sandeep

[hexed]

Marie,
I have used formalin a lot in my tanks and the filters were fine. Tina, sometimes it does effect them and sometimes it does not. I thought Furan 2 would effect them too! ;)
I too agree with Paul, You were given the advice by the best. We learn everyday, sometimes it might cost us a discus or two before we get it right - but we do :) Yours seem to be bouncing back like I had predicted. I am very happy that you listened to me and gave the sickest one a fighting chance, after all life is precious no matter what it is :)
I am sorry I could not help you further with this illness as I have never experienced it. But I am here to catch you when you seem to fall - that too is what friends are for LOL!

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Marie,


Andrew in retrospect I think that if I had hit them with PP ...three of them wld have died as they were so ill and weak and completely down ~ I needed to strengthen them first ~ to give them a fighting chance ~

I think if you did hit it with PP, three of the sickly and dying ones may just straighten up and start eating...and you don't see a single excessive slime on their body!!!

Anyway, as some of them said, you have advices from too many people,...therefore the choice is yours and all the best.

*(For me, it is a system of no 'play, play'. Whenever there is a sign of trouble or infection, it must be followed by an immediate remedy and I always use PP as frontline...'Bang, bang' and get out of the situation. If unsuccessful, it will be followed up by antibiotics....metronidazole....salt....or ...whatever. In most cases, the situation must be under control and mortality must be maintained at below 0.01 percent.)

All the best and hope your discus recover fast.

Take care Marie,
Andrew:angel:

[Elcid]

Hi Andrew:

Although I agree with you here that PP treatment may have been a good starting point for Marie. There are definately cases in my own experience where I wish I had not used PP. For example, I treated a fish that has lost it's slime coat (which I didn't realize) and got badly burned with PP treatment and excessive repeat PP treatments that I used to do in the past I believe damaged gill plates on my discus. I also remember wiping out a whole tank of discus by too stong a dosage. I was silly enough to go out after dosing and when I got back it was not a pretty sight! Please explain further why you always do PP treat as a 1st start. I always do salt treatment as my 1st start. PP is nice to clean a tank though when I'm feeling lazy :)

take care,
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

Marie,
I am here to catch you when you seem to fall - that too is what friends are for LOL!



There was a time when I wanted to cull the biggest discus thru all this ~ he was so suffering and lying flat and 2x that day I went in to scoop him out thinking he had passed ~

All day nothing moved on this fish ~ nothing ~ but his lips to breathe ~ if I ever experience anything like this again it will be too soon for me ~

Frank talked me out of culling him that day ~ he told me to remember what Dan and Kenny had said in that they will look like they are actually dying ~ I had forgotten ~


Thanks Frank ~


M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[traco]

Marie, I'm glad things are looking up a tiny bit. :sun: It sure is a slooowww road for improved health, isn't it? Tiny bit by tiny bit, things will improve. Been following your thread and it's been a learning curve for me too. A good reference for others down the road.

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie,
I think if you did hit it with PP, three of the sickly and dying ones may just straighten up and start eating...and you don't see a single excessive slime on their body!!!

Anyway, as some of them said, you have advices from too many people,...therefore the choice is yours and all the best.

Andrew:angel:


Andrew ~ you sound annoyed with me ~ that is okay ....I am no stranger to annoying some ~

I only took advice from two ~ cream of the crop IMO ~ and confirmed by a third ~again a Pro like yourself ~ This thread was not to seek advice ~ but to learn ~

And then there was you ~ The Best Of The Best ~ I adore you Andrew I do but I really think I wld have done more damage than good if I had hit them with PP ~ If you had been here perhaps you wld have seen the above-mentioned results ~

Dan agrees with you tho as did Kenny ~ but all you guys are not ME ~ (which some wld agree is a very good thing) I am not a PRo ~ I do not want to be one ~ Im thinking that putting PP in the hands of a lay person ...well may not be a good thing ~

If I need to hit them after this first treatment ...with PP ~ Dan will walk me thru it step by step ~


I wont quit Andrew ~ I promise ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Marie:

Ur in good hands here but I just wanted to remind you about something that although seems trivial I believe to be very important: keep ur tank and sponge very clean. Everyday, squeeze out the sponge in tank water until it runs clear (well nearly clear) and don't forget to paper towel all glass and accessories before you change water. If you haven't been doing it do it right away and I'd bet that by tomorrow morning ur fish will perk up a bit!

take care,
Sandeep


Hey you ~

Thanks for the heads up on that ~ Kenny does constantly remind me in re to cleaning the insides of the tank well ~I always did this at every wc anyways...every day.... ******** this tank wasnt this clean when I bought it San!! Soooooooo clean now ~

You are talking about the sponges in all my filters correct? I have two Hydro Sponges as well San ....ya know I am quite good at un-cycling my tank ..............so.........I do alternate the sponges....

Barb ~ Paul ~ Larry ~EVERYONE ~ Thank you so much for not forgetting all bout me and always popping back ~ it means a lot ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[White Worm]

PP at sears in water heater section, thats where I found it. Little white bottle with purple words. Kinda easy to miss it unless you look hard. This has got to be the best thread yet with the level of advice given from some experts, wow!

[Kindredspirit]

PP at sears in water heater section, thats where I found it. Little white bottle with purple words. Kinda easy to miss it unless you look hard. This has got to be the best thread yet with the level of advice given from some experts, wow!



Yeppers;)

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Sandeep,

If you have been following the thread, which I think you have, you should understand why I prefer to use PP as the first line of defense as I have stated my reason many times over.

Burning off the gill or tissue is something unheard of if the right dose is used....to me that is. Maybe you are right and am sorry for my ignorance. As in another chemicals, overdosing sure to burn and damage a lot of things....formalin, Malachite green, copper sulphate, and so on ....even acriflavine.......and so will PP if overdosed. But why need to overdose?

Marie, sorry...I am not annoyed to say the least. I am just sending my sincere message across to readers especially you and it is my character that 'I wholeheartedly send it with a slight level of warmness...ha!ha!ha!

Take care,

Andrew:angel:

[Kindredspirit]

Marie, sorry...I am not annoyed to say the least. I am just sending my sincere message across to readers especially you and it is my character that 'I wholeheartedly send it with a slight level of warmness...ha!ha!ha!

Take care,

Andrew:angel:


aww.. man ~ You made my night Andrew!


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_10_3.gif


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[Elcid]

Hi Andrew:

I always use PP dosage based on color as taught to me by another hobbiest. Isn't PP's effectiveness dosage pretty near the lethal level for Discus? If you know what the lethal level is and the treatment level in PPM for dosing to fresh water please post it. I suppose it's in your book, I have to go check. I was just saying that my prior experience has been not that favorable. But that was many years ago!

thanks,
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

DAY SEVEN: ( or six? )



Just a quick pic guys ~

I know this thread is getting out there! But....the pic you see here is so significant in that these guys come to the end of the tank to see me when I am in the kitchen ~ but they have not done that or followed me since all hell broke loose ~
But just now when I got home they did!!! I am like crying and ....well ~ whatever ~ itz only FISH ~ but then I turned on the light really quick ( i see relapse in future ) to snap a pic and :

Don't they look great?? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_105.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_105.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_105.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_105.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_105.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_105.gif

And they ate like the pigs I know and love too!



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[pcsb23]

Ok wheres the pic :D - actually I don't care, really good news.

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
Uhhhhh... shhhhhhhh... your fish turned into little jumping balls..

Larry (Who will be in hiding for awhile)

[Kindredspirit]

Oh Dear (wow) ~ I forgot it!!



( thanks Paul! xo)

[brewmaster15]

Marie,
They are looking very good. I am glad their behavior is getting back to normal..Thats always a good sign. I hope things progress as they have Marie, if not, I think Andrews PP suggestions are well worth considering....or some other antiparasitic that you feel comfortable using. Hopefully that won't be needed.

take care,
al:)

[Kindredspirit]

I will probably do that Al ~ Dan and Kenny will walk me thru it ~
But.......tell me ~ honestly like you were talking to Tony or Kenny over a drink...lol.....do you think it will come to that? I know that Andrew thinks this cld rear itz ugly head again ......

You must in your heart Al have an idea yes? You are so wise ~ I know you do ~ Pl do not sugar coat this now ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Marie - looks like a good day to you!!! I'm glad and so are many others here I'm sure. They don't look to be 100% yet(their eyes look a little dialated to me but way better overall) so you know what to do...lol.(hint: WCs) They do look so much better than their earlier pics so your HARD WORK is paying off.
My guess is that they will recover fully soon. JMO

Best wishes to you and your fish Marie.

Kenny

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie - They don't look to be 100% yet(their eyes look a little dialated to me but way better overall) My guess is that they will


Kenny


Oh I know they dont look 100% yet ~ their eyes look a lil dialated? I am gonna go and see ....brb........they do Kenny ~ the black part inside the red circle....looks hella huge! From the meds? ********....

And you say you are not an Expert/Pro? I am impressed, Sir ~ between you and Dan I will be as good as our Dr. Al someday yes? So what does that tell you? They are high? How did you ever notice that? wow ~

When do you think it will dissipate? It will dissipate?


Itz tough bein me ya know? lol!

M~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - as Cliff stated on an earlier post, their eye colors are an indication of their overall health. When your discus is normal and healthy, you should remember seeing them being more focused and red. And IME you should slowly see their eyes regaining that color once they are fully recovered.

Marie I can only give you advice from my own experience + what I've learned from the best(Al, Andrew, Carol, Phil, Paul, and many many others). I'm definitely no pro and I'm learning something new here myself as well.

This thread is turning out to be a very good learning tool for dealing with discus disease like yours I think.

Take care friend, (got to feed my fish now) :-)
Kenny

[lhforbes12]

This thread is turning out to be a very good learning tool for dealing with discus disease like yours I think.

Kenny,
I was thinking the same thing. With a little creative editing this would make a great sticky.

Larry

[Kenny's Discus]

Kenny,
I was thinking the same thing. With a little creative editing this would make a great sticky.

Larry

I agree Larry.

Kenny

[lhforbes12]

Kenny,
Well.. yours and Marie's at any rate Kenny. How often is there a thread with you, Al, Andrew, Paul, and Dan in the background posting to it? And I'm not even mentioning the many others who posted damn good advice.

[tpl*co]

Yes, You guys are mentioning eye color! Sick discus have dark eyes? How long after the eyes start to turn back will recovery be? What does dark eyes indicate? (sorry Marie but asking on behalf of my Sampson, started eating and his eyes are about half dark but getting some dull red back, pretty much the dark is just the stress bar over the eyes now).

Tina

[brewmaster15]

Hi Marie,
I am not a doctor and by no means an expert at anything except getting myself in trouble and spending hours on this forum..:( Just trying to help as everyone else here is.


I honestly don't know if this will repeat itself...it depends on alot..Its very possible that this is not bacterial as the main cause...but parasite.. and what you see is secondary infection.....If thats the case then this treatment may cure the secondary infection but not its cause... and depending on fish health and the parasite....it could be an issue again. Even if it is parasites...that doesn't necessarily mean they will reproduce to numbers that the fish will succumb to...there is alot of evidence that fishes immune systems can fight parasites very well after an infection.

It could also just be a bacteria and nothing else...which is what I am hoping...

To hedge our bets , I advise that as I mentioned earlier...you should follow this up with an antiparasitic treatment... like PP, or formalin, malachite green, clout etc..

Sorry to not give you a definite...I honestly don't know. we can't know.

-al

[Kindredspirit]

Thank You Al ~

I appreciate it ~ and I understand completely I do ~


Now how have you gotten yourself into trouble again?? Do tell....j/k!

We all appreciate you here Al you have to know that ~ I for one ~ wld be lost without Simply Discus ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

Tina - here's an older thread about discus dark eyes, not "dialated eyes" though...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=48605

Kenny

[Andrew Soh]

Now, it is morning in Singapore, 730hours.

Sorry Sandeep to reply so late...or so far from your post.

Judging the correct dosage by way of visual (color) is very dangerous because some people may have color-blind and there are others that cannot really differentiate the tone of color.

So, I have gone through all possible methods and come up with a fastfood method of doing things and that is a fix amount, regardless of water condition, that is safe for discus. So....here goes again....whether you like to use it as a sticky on your computer.....


200mg to 100 liter of water

pH best to be below 7 but even at 7 plus, it is still safe though a little stressed.

Temperature maintain @ 25 to 28 during treatment. Never bring up the temperature.

After 24 hours, make complete water change. Never leave the residue of potassium permanganate, after oxidized, for 3 days to a week as that may be toxic and sensitive discus may die from it. 24 hours is extremely safe.

2 to 6 hours treatment is insufficient.

Total treatment suggested is 3 times in a week.

If you are going to make water change with municipal water before putting the Potassium Permanganate, make sure that you put in the water-conditioner at least one hour before you put in the potassium Permanganate. This is because water-conditioner, generally sodium thiosulphate neutralizes potassium permanganate....but the potassium is still there and when you use visual to judge the dosage, you will be putting in more potassium...which may be harmful. So, stick to 200mg per 100 liter water no matter what.

Finally, don't mix PP with formalin.

Take care,

Andrew:angel:

[diskboy]

havnt been on for a while caz its been so nice out aqnd sounds like they are doing good....good job

[marilyn1998]

Sorry Marie not to have been on this thread for a while. (I went back to work!!)

Sounds like your guys are really mustering and doing well. Kee pup the good work. There is ALOT of great info and advice here. I have learned alot.
Thank you all!!

[Kindredspirit]

So, I have gone through all possible methods and come up with a fastfood method of doing things and that is a fix amount, regardless of water condition, that is safe for discus.

200mg to 100 liter of water

Andrew ~

I so appreciate you going thru all possible methods but cld you make it just a little easier? For the Blondes in the group? lol! Dan told me once to get a reg water bottle 500mL and add the PP to that as it wld be easier to manipulate and store ~ but I forget the dosage of PP...?




Temperature maintain @ 25 to 28 during treatment. Never bring up the temperature.

umm.....Andrew ~ exactly what temp is that? actually.... I just looked on the thermometer right in front of my face ...duh..lol! 75-85 degrees...right? I swear I never noticed that before...( no comments pl lol )

Andrew


Thank You Andrew once again for all your time and thoughts and ideas and posting that went into this thread ~

You're A Good Man Charlie Brown~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif


( don't you think they look so much better Andrew?)

[Kindredspirit]

Sorry Marie not to have been on this thread for a while. (I went back to work!!)

Sounds like your guys are really mustering and doing well. Kee pup the good work. There is ALOT of great info and advice here. I have learned alot.
Thank you all!!


I agree ~ I have learn a lot ~ still am ~ thanks Marilyn!


Kevin you too!!

[brewmaster15]

HI all,
On the PP, Andrews description is a very thorough one.. The problem most people have with PP is accurately measuring it... To make a solution you need to mix a measured amount of PP Crystals, which means you need to have decent scale, which most don't... There is a product I used once a while back from kordon,
Not sure if its still around...

its called permoxyn...

Its a liquid and comes at a concentration of 3.84 % potassium permangate .. it at least gives you a known concentration without a scale.

Heres its tech sheet from Kordon...
http://www.novalek.com/kpd35.htm

hth,
al

[lhforbes12]

HI all,
On the PP, Andrews description is a very thorough one.. The problem most people have with PP is accurately measuring it... To make a solution you need to mix a measured amount of PP Crystals, which means you need to have decent scale, which most don't... There is a product I used once a while back from kordon,
Not sure if its still around...

its called permoxyn...

Its a liquid and comes at a concentration of 3.84 % potassium permangate .. it at least gives you a known concentration without a scale.

Heres its tech sheet from Kordon...
http://www.novalek.com/kpd35.htm

hth,
al

Al,
Excellent info, this has always been my problem, how to accurately measure PP. Google will return lots of sites selling the Kordon product.

Thanks again,
Larry

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Al ~ Larry ~

Hey guys~


I just tested my water parameters and I have almost .50 in ammonia....but ZERO NitrItes ~

But check this out and see if this makes a difference ~ I was doing a wc so I set aside some tank water to do the testing ....it was cold and about 45 min old ~

Does that affect the readings?

Okay guys....What does this tell you? Zero NitrItes is good I know....but I need to know what is exactly going thru your mind...

What is happening?

Wait....I didnt do a wc yesterday cuz I just didnt get to it ....we had senior awards night and I had to work....I was so tired...that is where the ammonia spike came from yes? Perhaps I shld do another reading in a lil while since I did a wc just now?

What if I HAD NitrItes? I will never get this down ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[brewmaster15]

Marie,
although not the only train of thought here on biofilters...its thought that there are 2 main bacteria types in the biofilter.

when ammonia is present (from fish and waste) theres a bacteria that "consumes" it...and converts it to Nitrite.. then another bacteria "consumes" it and makes it turn into Nitrates...

If you are seeing ammonia..it means the meds are starting to have an effect on your biofilter.....by impairing the ammonia "consuming" bacterias.. or as others offered .,...maybe its not the meds but the slime coat and organic matter in the tank.

hth,
al

[Alight]

IF I had any money, my bet would be on the meds having an effect on the biofilter.

It's probably a relatively small effect, and the bacteria will recover quickly. With your regular water changes, you might not have noticed it at all, which is probably why some say Furan, etc. don't affect their biofilter.

As Al said, it is common for meds to affect only one of the bacterial strains in the biofilter and cause either only ammonia, or only nitrite increases.

It is unlikely that a small increase in organics, or slime could cause an ammonia spike. A healthy biofilter should have enough extra capacity to take care of that. A large chunk of rotting meat, maybe not though.

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
What Al said and... erm.. what Al said.

Larry

[AmberC]

But check this out and see if this makes a difference ~ I was doing a wc so I set aside some tank water to do the testing ....it was cold and about 45 min old ~


Does that affect the readings?



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

I dont know if this is true or not but an LFS once told me that the water parameters start to change within 15 min of being out of the tank.

Amber

[dandestroy]

most bacteria have reproductive cycle of 15 - 20 min...therefore it does not take long for a particular cycle to stop when not under optimal parameter.

but that says, lowering temperature only stop their metabolism and do not start producing toxin or modify water chemistry right away...there is a degradation process going on that takes more than 15 min.

I would buy the fact that some chemical test are temp sensitive, but water in a bucket should reach room temp, and not fridge so that should not be an issue.

[Kenny's Discus]

Hello Marie - any updates on your fish? Curious to know.

Thanks,
Kenny

[Elcid]

Now, it is morning in Singapore, 730hours.

Sorry Sandeep to reply so late...or so far from your post.

Judging the correct dosage by way of visual (color) is very dangerous because some people may have color-blind and there are others that cannot really differentiate the tone of color.

So, I have gone through all possible methods and come up with a fastfood method of doing things and that is a fix amount, regardless of water condition, that is safe for discus. So....here goes again....whether you like to use it as a sticky on your computer.....


200mg to 100 liter of water

pH best to be below 7 but even at 7 plus, it is still safe though a little stressed.

Temperature maintain @ 25 to 28 during treatment. Never bring up the temperature.

After 24 hours, make complete water change. Never leave the residue of potassium permanganate, after oxidized, for 3 days to a week as that may be toxic and sensitive discus may die from it. 24 hours is extremely safe.

2 to 6 hours treatment is insufficient.

Total treatment suggested is 3 times in a week.

If you are going to make water change with municipal water before putting the Potassium Permanganate, make sure that you put in the water-conditioner at least one hour before you put in the potassium Permanganate. This is because water-conditioner, generally sodium thiosulphate neutralizes potassium permanganate....but the potassium is still there and when you use visual to judge the dosage, you will be putting in more potassium...which may be harmful. So, stick to 200mg per 100 liter water no matter what.

Finally, don't mix PP with formalin.

Take care,

Andrew:angel:

Hi Andrew:

Thanks so must for this info. I'm not sure if I could measure 200 mg on my kitchen scale? Is there a conversion? I do have a set of measuring spoons?

thanks,
Sandeep

[raglanroad]

by cleaning the filter it should show whether the bacteria have been killed or whether it is a clogged filter. gotta give it a little pick up time since it has been starved of oxygen and food for a day probably (or more). in the case of multiple filters, it is likely that the first plugged are not noticed, and only the last to go is noticed.

[Kindredspirit]

Marie,
although not the only train of thought here on biofilters...its thought that there are 2 main bacteria types in the biofilter.

when ammonia is present (from fish and waste) theres a bacteria that "consumes" it...and converts it to Nitrite.. then another bacteria "consumes" it and makes it turn into Nitrates...

If you are seeing ammonia..it means the meds are starting to have an effect on your biofilter.....by impairing the ammonia "consuming" bacterias.. or as others offered .,...maybe its not the meds but the slime coat and organic matter in the tank.

hth,
al

You explained that very well Al ~ So......okay...then .....Today is the 8th day ~ and yes there is slime coat in the filters...I can not see it but when I rinse the filters like Dave said .....and Kenny ....it is very slimy!

How often do you guys think I shld test this tank during all this?


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

most bacteria have reproductive cycle of 15 - 20 min...therefore it does not take long for a particular cycle to stop when not under optimal parameter.

but that says, lowering temperature only stop their metabolism and do not start producing toxin or modify water chemistry right away...there is a degradation process going on that takes more than 15 min.

I would buy the fact that some chemical test are temp sensitive, but water in a bucket should reach room temp, and not fridge so that should not be an issue.


So what you are saying in 'Marie terms' ...is that the lil bit of tank water I set aside for the time I did ....shldnt have had an affect on the readings?

Or did I just completely not get this?


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[raglanroad]

doesn't matter now, you have ammonia. WC. good reason to keep low pH. if you acidify your water now, there will be no damage until the filter picks up. probably easily done, just cut out any KH additions.might need a touch of acid, but maybe not.

[Kindredspirit]

Hello Marie - any updates on your fish? Curious to know.

Thanks,
Kenny



Funny you shld ask Kenny ~ I thought one was like losing his mental faculties a bit ~ It was like a lil bit after I had re-dosed and after the wc ~

Kenny he scared me ~ It wasnt the really big one that was hit hard but the next one down ....he just jammed to the bottom and layed flat and I thought oh Hell No....then another discus was like poking at him ~

But then he regrouped but sometimes Kenny the Goldenx ....the brown ones ~ they like dart and spaz out and scare me ~ esp today .....I didnt like it ~ and they twitch too ~

Tell me they have not totally lost it? I want this to be over Kenny ~ I want them back and I don't wanna do this anymore ~

[Kenny's Discus]

doesn't matter now, you have ammonia. WC. good reason to keep low pH. if you acidify your water now, there will be no damage until the filter picks up.

I totally agree.

[Kindredspirit]

doesn't matter now, you have ammonia. WC. good reason to keep low pH. if you acidify your water now, there will be no damage until the filter picks up. probably easily done, just cut out any KH additions.might need a touch of acid, but maybe not.



http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif

[raglanroad]

what is the pH right now?

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
Dave and Kenny are both agreeing that a pH below 7.0 will give you ammonium instead of amomnia. Amomnium is far less toxic than amomnia..
Just to cofuse you further amomnia is NH3, amomnium is NH4. The chemical difference is also the reason one is more toxic than the other.

Larry

[Kenny's Discus]

Funny you shld ask Kenny ~ I thought one was like losing his mental faculties a bit ~ It was like a lil bit after I had re-dosed and after the wc ~

Kenny he scared me ~ It wasnt the really big one that was hit hard but the next one down ....he just jammed to the bottom and layed flat and I thought oh Hell No....then another discus was like poking at him ~

But then he regrouped but sometimes Kenny the Goldenx ....the brown ones ~ they like dart and spaz out and scare me ~ esp today .....I didnt like it ~ and they twitch too ~

Tell me they have not totally lost it? I want this to be over Kenny ~ I want them back and I don't wanna do this anymore ~

Hello Marie - no they have not totally lost it...By your description it seems you're like seeing "fluke-like" symptoms but they're not I think. And if I remember correctly they'd be like scratching against objects; or exhibiting symptoms as if something is bothering under their gills. I don't know what's causing that exactly but if memory serves me well, with good WCs they'll go away after they're totally recovered. Right now they're not there yet.

I understand what you meant by "not wanting to do this anymore" Marie...I really do. It's very stressful and time-consuming to maintain your tank like this but...if you've gone this far you definitely should finish this "work" of yours. I'll tell you what Marie...when you know you've given them the best shot/tools to fight this disease you can live with yourself, whatever the outcome it will be. And I personally think they will be ok since they've gone this far.

Call me anytime if you need to talk Marie. Take care.

Kenny
ps: thanks for the clarification Larry.

[raglanroad]

my wild rio negro angels were doing a dart of a couple of inches when I got them.like they were getting bit on the butt. 90 degrees stopped it for mine, and for all 3 people having the wild rio negros.
this is the most important thing in getting fish to "up" the immune system, to kill disease.
Many great fish people such as Oliver Lucanus do just this thing.
it also removes the encysted flukes ( digenetic flukes are not a problem for your domestic fish though), while killing them in the fish can result in infection sites.

[candyl70]

While a lower pH might be better, I think that keeping it stable right now is the best option for Marie.... it's hard enough trying to treat them and keep them alive, let alone trying to mess with her waters pH. Am I right on this one Marie??

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Guys ~


I am talking to Barb on the phone right now and she has this product by Jungle Labs ~ called : Clear Water ~ and the main
ingredient is Potassium Permanganate ~ 1tsp./10gal....

It states that the product is used for cloudiness and odors in an already established tanks ~

Any thoughts on this? Could I use this if needed later? I never knew that Jungle Labs had such a product ~


Interesting......


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
There is also this product. I ordered some today from Big Als. As to the pH I still have to agree with Dave and Kenny, but Candy does make an excellent point. Why not split the difference and put peat in your filter?

Larry


HI all,
On the PP, Andrews description is a very thorough one.. The problem most people have with PP is accurately measuring it... To make a solution you need to mix a measured amount of PP Crystals, which means you need to have decent scale, which most don't... There is a product I used once a while back from kordon,
Not sure if its still around...

its called permoxyn...

Its a liquid and comes at a concentration of 3.84 % potassium permangate .. it at least gives you a known concentration without a scale.

Heres its tech sheet from Kordon...
http://www.novalek.com/kpd35.htm

hth,
al

[Timbo]

While a lower pH might be better, I think that keeping it stable right now is the best option for Marie.... it's hard enough trying to treat them and keep them alive, let alone trying to mess with her waters pH. Am I right on this one *edit Timbo*??

i agree with you 100%

[Kindredspirit]

aww... thatz okay Larry ~ letz not and say we did! lol!! Peat.. pH up ~ down ~

I can not go there ~ and I so appreciate all your input I do ~ I will continue with the Furan2 and take it from there ~


However ~ I am doing your ammonia thingy for the 35 gal ~ go check it out ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kindredspirit]

i agree with you 100%



Tim? wow ~ I agree too ~ as I told Candy I wasnt going there ~ I would have no idea how to raise/lower my pH and it was already discussed earlier ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[raglanroad]

the difficulties of lowering pH are...imaginary, but I do understand.

However, ammonia is not an imaginary difficulty.

Hopefully the filter will be working and clear it up pronto.

Dave

[pcsb23]

Marie, I suspect the reason they are 'spazzing' is due to the ammonia in the tank. Keep up with the w/c's, and rinse your sponges too! Hopefully they will come round sooner than later. You are doing good here.

btw I do agree with Dave but understand your reluctance too.

[brewmaster15]

Marie,
In addition to all thats been said, another culprit is your water... That behavior will occur if theres too many dissolved gases in the water...

solution... do more water changes...less volume...this is probably not a bad idea as well since you are starting to see issues with the bio filter...

when doing multiple wc... be sure to add back any meds you remove.

hth,
al

[AmberC]

Marie... this sounds exhausting! How are YOU doing?

Amber

[Kindredspirit]

Marie,
In addition to all thats been said, another culprit is your water... That behavior will occur if theres too many dissolved gases in the water...

solution... do more water changes...less volume...this is probably not a bad idea as well since you are starting to see issues with the bio filter...

when doing multiple wc... be sure to add back any meds you remove.

hth,
al


I sounded a little discouraged yesterday ~ o.k.a.y.... a lot! I would never give up on these guy in a million years ~ Sorry everyone if I came off a witch~

Al... When you say mulitiple wc ~ we are talking more than one per day? So......when I do that I get confused on how much meds to put back:(

I do 50% now ...and add 5 caps a day ~ ~ if I do 25% 3x....:confused:


I wld seriously need that broken down for me ~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Marie, I suspect the reason they are 'spazzing' is due to the ammonia in the tank. Keep up with the w/c's, and rinse your sponges too! Hopefully they will come round sooner than later. You are doing good here.

btw I do agree with Dave but understand your reluctance too.


But Paul they were always spazing....and doing that ~ and I never had an ammonia spike til recently 7 days or 6 into this ~

I think their outsides hurt:( ~ and itz only the Goldenx not the Pigeons...


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Marie... this sounds exhausting! How are YOU doing?

Amber


Thatz a good question Virgina! So.......I took apart two tanks last night cuz I am starting a African Cichild tank ~

I am in love with this rock deco thingy!! Way K00L ~ So I have this sick tank ~ I work two jobs and I am exhausted ~

...and what do I do? Re-deco two tanks! WhY do we do that? lol!


M ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[traco]

What Al said is true. When I was doing 50% water changes once a day, I ended up having to age my water. Right now, I am doing around 25-30% water changes and am going straight from the tap (same temp of course) and things seem to be okay with them. And you already know the "splashing" of water to help with the dissolved gases.

Maybe 25% morning and night and add 2 caps in the morning and 3 caps at night? But wait till someone more knowledgeable about meds can give you a definate answer.:)

You are nearing the end of the road, Marie. Just hang in there a couple more days.


Marie,
In addition to all thats been said, another culprit is your water... That behavior will occur if theres too many dissolved gases in the water...

solution... do more water changes...less volume...this is probably not a bad idea as well since you are starting to see issues with the bio filter...

when doing multiple wc... be sure to add back any meds you remove.

hth,
al

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
I think Al's advice is very good (gee big suprize..) and also Barb's, except maybe about the dosing. But why change anything now? You only have a couple of days left. However I would seriously consider doing the smaller wc's more often in the future.

Larry

[Kindredspirit]

I think that something is wrong with my other 55gal tank with my other 6 discus ~


Please tell me this is not happening ~


Everyone seems okay ...in fact great except my bbs....he just seems 'off'...... omg....this can not be ~ Last night I added rocks which I did the vinegar test and boiled the hell out of ~ I also added driftwood from Deb that I totally cleaned as well ~

He is alone and faces the corner a tad ~ the punk is never alone ~ I see NO white spots or slime or anything ~ It seems he wants to go and hide behind the driftwood all the time and not cruise around with the rams and others.....

Please someone tell me what I shld do?


I cld be just paranoid and borrowing trouble AND I have used all separate equipment and EVERYTHING ~ my ill tank is NOT in my office ~
Water changes and waiting may not be a good thing ~ remember time was of the essence previously ~ I feel sick .....



Marie ~ :(

[raglanroad]

But Paul they were always spazing....and doing that ~ and I never had an ammonia spike til recently 7 days or 6 into this ~

I think their outsides hurt:( ~ and itz only the Goldenx not the Pigeons...


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=371&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Kindredspirit]

Dave with all due respect ~ that link was to an Angel site yes? And knowing you as I do I am sure that there is SOMEWHERE there ....some pertinent information you want me to read ~

However I do not have the time to register and log in a new site at the moment ~ esp Angels ~ then...search as to where you wld like to direct me ~


I do appreciate it tho very much ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[raglanroad]

Marie, this is the darting forward that I was mentioning. May or may not be what your fish is doing. Anyway, it is interesting that heat can do what the med only partially helped.
Dave

*******************************
Author Message
margin
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: Identification help- are these Rio Negro???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi all-my first post!

Have already bought 'Peruvian Altums/Scalare' which appear just like those featrured on the ID page. Bought these 3 a week ago as wild caught 'Altum' but captured in the Orinocco area.

Still some way to go to restoring their finnage but settling well. Of all the threads I've read these appear to match the posts on the Rio Negro 'Altums'. They certainly behave that way and although small (about 3cm SL) they are very aggressive with each other. Other behaviour that they do that follow others posts is the odd jerking forward behaviour.

They're eating well bit dont look like my Peruvian!! Did also buy some Dutch bred 'Altums' only very small-about 1cm but they appear to be Peruvian.

Your comments would be welcome!! Sorry about the quality of pics

rag
Location: Toronto Canada
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: re: Identification help- are these Rio Negro???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good, Margin ! Welcome to the forum !

Bingo on the Rio Negro. The odd darting forward? it stopped when I put them up to 90 degrees because they were sick. That darting forward, for no reason, maybe one inch forward, maybe 3 inches? Yes it stopped after the heat. Where did you get them?


Dave
_________________
Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum add up to more than the sum

margin
Location: Essex, UK
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:28 am Post subject: re: Identification help- are these Rio Negro???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi bought them in Essex in the UK. The shop owner was very honest and stated they were not true Altum but captured in the Orinocco area. I also bought 3 young Peruvian Scalare from him and all doing fine.

Dave is right the odd fish in the Rio Negro group does appear 'off'. Had them 2 weeks now. At first all three clamped their fins and used only one pectoral. Also some opaqueness of fins and small patch of grey mucous over shoulder area. Took the heat to 86 F and used and interpet protozoan treatment. Two are fine but the last one still has fin damage and occasionally clamps fins. This is the fish that suddenly darts forward as though startled. All 3 are eating well although the 'off colour' fish is slower.

Any advice??? Should I lift the temperature up to 90F??

Appreciate all the feedback and information.


falcon
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: re: Identification help- are these Rio Negro???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I would raise the temp to 90F and leave it there for up to two weeks. After that, lower slowly to 84F or so.

margin
Location: Essex, UK
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: re: Identification help- are these Rio Negro???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Rio Negros are seeming to acclimatise following ?? protozoan infection. Now holding fins erect and much more active and alert. In fact as Dave suggested the darting forward behaviour has ceased. Still at 90 degrees but eating well and looking good (For now)!

Pic shows recovered fish showing usual colour in aquarium.

[traco]

Marie, you are too tired and maybe your mind is working overtime? I'm sure he is just fine and is just in a funk cuz there has been new things added to the tank. Some fish do fine with change, some sulk, some are standoffish.

You cleaned everything really well that you put in that tank (mmmm... rock soup) so I don't think you have to worry about another tank falling sick. I think it was just too much change for this guy and he'll come around.

:sun:

[Kindredspirit]

I know Barb ~ thank you ~ I think that perhaps I was hasty ...Lord I hope so ~


Dave ~ thank you very much for all the input! With Furan2 tho you need to keep the heat around 84-85 as high heat cld make the bacteria grow I think ~ I will def keep that in my notes tho ~ count on it!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
I'm happy to see that you are doing better. How is the 35 coming?

[Kindredspirit]

Hey You ~

I am doing better ~ thanks to you ~ I will send pm ~

Well ~ dont smack me now but I went out and got some cheap lil fish ~ 6 of them ~ they are in there now ~ I so will not remember to add ammonia Larry I wont....lol ~

I know me ~ very well ~


Hey find my Hormonal Thread ~


xo


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

Marie - you must be very tired for the last week or so...hang in there!

Kenny

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
Are you now saying you think they are about to spawn?

<---------------------- VERY confused

[Kindredspirit]

<---------------------- VERY confused



It comes with being a Man Larry!




xo


M ~

[Kindredspirit]

DAY 9 ( i think...)

Hey guys ~


Noticed this upon arriving from work a little while ago ~ HITH? And possible ammonia burns on the sec pic? And the hits just keep on coming ~

But they are getting better ~ I do believe Tuesday is the last treatment of Furan2~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_14_50.gif




Please tell me that this isnt what I think It is??
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_7263Small.jpg

This guy is coming along great ~ that is ammonia burn on his tail?
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_7262Small.jpg

This guy for all intense and purposes shld be dead ~ He was so close ....
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_7259Small.jpg

These guys are doing great too ~
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_7249Small.jpg

[Elcid]

Hi Marie:

What's the temperature in that tank? Don't try pp treat at the moment okay :)......Change the water, rinse the filters! Hang in there!

take care,
Sandeep

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Sandeep,

Sorry to reply your post this late...was out of country for a couple of days. Came back today and this thread has gone 4 pages more.

Anyway, as to the PP,, follow Al's reco....buy the commercial brand.

Andrew:angel:

[traco]

I'm not an expert and someone who is will chime in, but could it just be a scrape from spazzing out while the Furan 2 has been in the tank?

[Andrew Soh]

No opinion my dear Marie.

HITH on the first...small matter. The rest seem to be recovering...though not fully.....maybe i afew days time...

Take care,

Andrew
If the philosophy is 'perfection' then we will all look the same, act the same and think the same as one chosen by God.

[Kenny's Discus]

Hello Marie - I also think they are on their road to full recovery, like in another week as Mr. Soh stated. Their fins are up and they don't look as dark as in the beginning. I bet you're seeing a lot less slime now, if any.

I do think it might be a good time to treat them externally with the formalin you have, after your last dose of Furan-2. Just what I would do(although I use PP)

Take care of them for a little while longer, and they shall "take care" of you by boucing back fully.

Kenny

[Tony_S]

On the HITH...not the greatest picture, but off the top of my head Id say no....Looks like it ran into something and tore the skin off. Take a close look at the wound....if it was HITH it would be a fairly deep pit at that size, probably about as deep as it is wide.
Also...a pit of that size wouldnt appear overnight....Im sure you would have noticed it long before now.

Tony

[brewmaster15]

Hi Marie,
I would not worry about whether its HITH at this point... Most HITH that we see is a long term ailment that is treatable by several methods.. It usually doesn't pose an immediate threat. I would focus with the matters at hand..

Now that you are ending the treatment, I would finish it up... get all the meds and any salt out of the tank... Give them a day to rest and see how they really look without the meds there.. test all your water parameters... rinse out your sponges which have probably been dyed blue green from the furan-2.

Then I would move on to an anti-parasitic as preveously suggested..

Hth,
al

[SSteino86]

I always think my Oscars have HITH, but I'll find some evidence (like flaps of skin) that leads me to believe that they're just spazzin out and crashing into stuff. They actually tend to injure themselves most frequently by trying to jump out of the tank. Almost every night I hear one of them crash into the lid and float around all dazed for a few minutes. The tank isn't overcrowded or anything, so I'm confused by the behavior. Hope your fish feel better.

[Timbo]

The tank isn't overcrowded or anything, so I'm confused by the behavior.

oscars will be oscars :) i used to have to keep a brick on my glass top to keep it there when i kept those brutes.

but they sure are fun. a friend of mine used to hang a string attached to a bell into his oscar tank and he had them trained to ring the bell when they wanted to eat. that didnt last long - the bell was continually rung once they caught on, before it was ripped down by them via brute force.

[Kenny's Discus]

oscars will be oscars :) i used to have to keep a brick on my glass top to keep it there when i kept those brutes.

but they sure are fun. a friend of mine used to hang a string attached to a bell into his oscar tank and he had them trained to ring the bell when they wanted to eat. that didnt last long - the bell was continually rung once they caught on, before it was ripped down by them via brute force.

Thanks for sharing the story Timbo. It sounded like fun...for a while at least lol.

I'm gonna try your bell trick in some of my discus tanks and see if it'll work...Will update you on it of course lol.

Back to your fish Marie, sry. :-)

:-p
Kenny

[raglanroad]

Marie, everything is looking so much better - don't despair !

Any of the to other symptoms of suspected problems such as the darting forward or this fin damage are from treatable causes.

This fin damage is minimal, something like one sees after fish are shipped, quite often.

It's suspected that gills are affected in about the same way, though, so: oxygen for first aid. A plain air line with no airstone will create some waves on the surface, geometrically increasing the surface area of the water. It would take "zillions" of small bubbles to match the air/water interface that is achieved by making waves, and by using a lift tube to circulate the water up from the bottom and down from the top.

I find strong salt dips will fix up that damage very quickly.

Great results so far. Perhaps clean the filters daily? How is the ammonia now?

Dave

[Kindredspirit]

No opinion my dear Marie.

HITH on the first...small matter. The rest seem to be recovering...though not fully.....maybe i afew days time...

Take care,

Andrew
If the philosophy is 'perfection' then we will all look the same, act the same and think the same as one chosen by God.


Thank you Andrew! I so appreciate it ~

San ~ no I am not going to use PP ~ the temp is 84-85 remember?

Kenny ~ thank you!!

Tony ~ I am honored that you came by:)

Stein ~ They are feeling better I am sure! I know I am ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie,
I would not worry about whether its HITH at this point... Most HITH that we see is a long term ailment that is treatable by several methods.. It usually doesn't pose an immediate threat. I would focus with the matters at hand..

Now that you are ending the treatment, I would finish it up... get all the meds and any salt out of the tank... Give them a day to rest and see how they really look without the meds there.. test all your water parameters... rinse out your sponges which have probably been dyed blue green from the furan-2.

Then I would move on to an anti-parasitic as preveously suggested..

Hth,
al


Al ~ I got it ~ I have a few questions if I may ~ Tomorrow is the last Furan2 dose ~

So: On Wednesday do a 50%wc and add carbon for 24 hours? Then hit them with Formalin? Gotta be specific with me remember?? ( dont answer that ) Shld I follow this:

1 ML per 10gal ~ heat at 84 ~ 85 ( 5ml for 55gal) wait 6 hours ~ do a 50% wc.....wait three days ~ do again ~



Also: Do I use salt with the Formalin? Or no?

I just tested my water : Ammonia = 0 and NitrItes - 0 ... i didnt test anything else so let me know if I shld ~ This is a good thing yes?


Here is a pic I just took ~ they are swimming normally!! Like back and forth guys! Today was the first day ~ there is one that swims like a little sideways ~ why does he do that?


Thanks Everyone for always returning to this thread ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Elcid]

Hey Marie:

Ur fish are looking good. 16 pages! WE need some kinda award just keeping up with U :) Just kidding! Maybe it's you we should give an award to!

Okay ur temp is good. NO I DIDN'T say this but now's the time to feed them little and frequently to build them back up and yes maybe some CBW from Dan or some safe clean source may not be a bad way to go to get them back to their pink of health! OKAY I DIDN'T SAY THAT :) But if I loved my discus like you do I'm sure that's what I'd do!

take care,
Sandeep

[raglanroad]

Marie,
one thing to consider: formalin and furanace are closely related, if I remember. It might be good to see if there is much difference between the doses recommended for parasites- maybe you've already done formalin, in essence, for the last 10 days.

Maybe just a phone call or email to Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and they can tell what the dose of furanace is related to the dose of formalin.



Dave

[Kindredspirit]

Dave ~ I believe that Dan has always told me that Furan2 mixed with Formalin is extremely toxic ~

One has to be removed before administering the other ~



San ~ you are so mean! lol!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[traco]

I thought there 5 discus.?

[Kindredspirit]

You B*! I KNEW you were going to do that! I was on the phone with Miss Barb and told her where the 5th one was ....The 5th discus was at the end of the tank but you cld see my reflection and so I cropped it ~ ( thanks to Candy I wld never had seen it )

Wouldnt wanna scare anyone http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_100.gif


(I owe ya one Canada)


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[raglanroad]

I must have that scared smiley ! It's the best.

[Kindredspirit]

I must have that scared smiley ! It's the best.


www.smileycentral.com

[traco]

I SAID it was Chevy who did that!!!!!!!!!!:D

[Kindredspirit]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_8_206.gif

[traco]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_11.gif

[brewmaster15]

Hi Marie,
My thoughts and suggestions...

1) 50% percent wc...no meds no salt ( a med to me) in the am.. and PM repeat. Carbon is not necessary but will help remove meds.. rinse filters gently but well.

Next day..
same as above... By now the tank will be pretty free of anything medication wise.

watch fish , and take many pics:) Start using formalin if thats your choice of med here...

How I would dose it......1 ml/10 gal and temp 84 ish....make sure you have good aeration....do a 50-70% wc 4-6 hours latter (very important).. Repeat every other day for 3-5 treatments. If you see cloudy water the day after you dose... increase your wc.. maintain a 50% wc daily on non dosing days.

Glad they are looking better Marie,
hth,
al

[Kindredspirit]

Thank You Al! Very specific! I have your post in my notes ~ and will follow to a tee ~

This is almost over yes? As will be this thread ~ send it to ....wherever! But I hope it can help some along the way ~


Hence the reason for it ~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

Be well Marie...opps I mean your fish!!! :-)

Glad to hear they are coming along well. And there's no way to describe the feeling that you yourself have pulled them through considering their initial condition! You agree it's a very valuable lesson learned, YES? (copyright infringement? lol)

Night Marie,
Kenny

[pcsb23]

Marie, well done.

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Marie,

watch fish , and take many pics:)
al



OKay ~ yes and I will! Thanks Paul and Kenny ~ you guys are always around when a girl needs help!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

I am back guys ~ and I think something is terribly wrong all of a sudden ~ Look at the pics ~ sorry not good ~ I was talking w/ Barb on the phone when I noticed that a few are unbalanced? ..for lack of a better word!


I had noticed yesterday that one of the Pigeonx was always kinda sideways ~ and now they all do that too ~ they float a little sideways and swim that way too ~ but sometimes they are caught up in the stream of the filter current ~ but i do not think so now:( :(

They still dart at times too! But they look great and eating like pigs!!

FYI: I am on Al's LAST suggestion in that yesterday and today I have done four wc total ~ well .. i have one more to do now~


No salt no meds since Wednesday ~

Do you think this is a med withdrawl or something? I have not tested my water today ~ Shld I ?

Why are they doing this?:confused:



Please ~ I hope someone pops up!!



Marie ~ :(

[Kindredspirit]

and ~

[Kindredspirit]

last one ~ please tell me what to do and is time of the essence?

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
Check the NH3 and NO2

[Kindredspirit]

Larry I assume that is ammonia ~ nitrItes or nitrAtes?


I will test soon! thanks ~



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Marie,
Check the NH3 and NO2


All readings are fine Boss:)


And they are not doing that sideways thing as much~ pics soon!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_51.gif

[lhforbes12]

Marie,
Hmmmmmm, were they bloated at all? I guess since they're swimming OK now it is not anything to worry about. And sorry, yes, NH3 = Amomnia, NO2 = Nitrite, NO3 = Nitrate, to me a much simplier and easy way of refering to those molecules.

[Kindredspirit]

No Larry ~ no bloat or I wld have used Epsom;)




Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_51.gif