negative effects of show fish

[h20delta]

I was reading through the criteria in the forum about what it takes to be a great discus, not healthwise, but desireable. It made me smile to think of how it is getting like a pedigree in dogs with criteria that the dog must meet. Then the thought occured to me about what has happened to many dog breeds. To get the correct traits, a lot of breeds now have genetic diseases associated with them, i.e. German Shepherds and hip dysplasia or Boxers and skin cancer. A certain lady once told me how Irish Setters were so inbred at one time from all the show quality traits(hope I did not offend anyone out there who might have this breed). Anyhow, to get certain traits, like maybe a rounder nose, narrows the gene pool and thus leads to a higher liklihood for other traits, possibly harmful, being linked with them. Note the eye size discussion found somewhere in this forum associated with different strains; no one was breeding for eye size, I would presume, yet, it has become a trait inherent with each strain. I was just musing, but I guess you get the drift. So, I would really love to see a discussion on this from all the subscribers out there.

[dandestroy]

Not a breeder myself, and I do agree with what you are implying, but I believe that a good breeder will try to mix various strain at some point and not only fish of the same batch, therefore incresing the genetics positive possibility and not only recessive disorder that could be carryed with same fish familly.

Even we dog that have genetics impairment, you will still get very healthy one from a good breeder, but bad one from the loccal neibord that only cross sister dog for the pass 20 years.

In labs mouse are crossed together to a level that makes it possible to assume that they are actual clone, which is a requirmeent for complex studies. These mouse are genetically perfect (or specificaly chosen to be laking a particular gene). So multiple cross breeding as its good.

Clone fish, like mamals could lead to impossibility to resist to any desease that one of the fish could get. On the other and strong usefull gene will also get amplify. So cross mixing will in the same time favor good gene and bad gene (kind a like that Swarcht movie twin...)

[dandestroy]

funny thing selecting trait is going to be applied to human pretty soon to.

(well not that funny after all...)

[Timbo]

breeders (especially the commerial ones) with often breed a line they are developing with a throw-back. that is, if they are looking to develop spots for instance, they will insert an unrelated rsg into the mix to expand the gene pool.

[poconogal]

I was reading through the criteria in the forum about what it takes to be a great discus, not healthwise, but desireable.... Anyhow, to get certain traits, like maybe a rounder nose, narrows the gene pool and thus leads to a higher liklihood for other traits, possibly harmful, being linked with them....

I've been thinking that myself, lately, as I see a huge difference in the temperment of the Discus I have now, compared to the Discus I was keeping 13 years ago. For instance, back then, I had very outgoing, non-skittish fish, 2 large adults that were either wild caught (that's what I was told) or wild crosses, and 3 larger juvies that were Red Turks. They were purchased from the dreaded pet store, not even an LFS, but they were very round, healty and pretty. Granted, not the gorgeous colors/patterns you see today, but... Now I have a Gold Pidgeon that is still very cautious, after 2 mos. of eating food from me, a Super Red Melon that is only a little better. I've also noticed that the blue fish, my Blue Diamond and a Super Eruption Leopard are much friendlier than the Pidgeon, but still a bit cautious. Then a Green Snakeskin that is unbelievably terrified if I even look at it. It squishes itself into a corner, as small as it can make itself! If it doesn't see me looking at it, fins are spread, color is good, etc. Most of these fish were purchased from a reputable breeder, not the dreaded pet store or LFS. Now I wonder if I will ever win these fish over! It took only about two days for my adult Discus I had years ago to rush to me, and my juvies were immediately friendly. And no, I DO NOT beat my fish! :D Anyway, they are totally unlike the other Discus I've had, which used to rush to the glass upon my entering the room. My water is good, I've checked and rechecked, so I really am thinking its the breeding for all the colors/patterns.

[Rod]

Thats the thing with inbreeding....it concentrates genetic traits both good and bad.

Outbreeding a line can save that line from a bad genetic trait, but it many cases it can set other qualities backwards that you may have carefully bred into your particular line so imo crossbreeding will not always guarentee desireable results.

I'd like to see some sort of register or pedigree that describes each strain and the qualities that make that strain what it is, then communicate with other breeders who are also producing a fish with the same genetic traits and breed your fish without direct inbreeding. We can already do that with strains like blue diamond where the genetic traits are set. In reality it may not work out very well if we look at the pedigree dog situation, i guess some breeders will think of the money as the bottom line and others will think of the animal as the bottom line, its just part of human nature.

JMT

Rod

[April]

i agree on the skittishness.but..could also be due to hormones..antibiotics..or just very highly bred and high strung. ive always thought most of the newer ones dont act right. not like your normal discus. some of them are also carrying problems..then break down with a bit of stress.
ive quit buying discus.....i havent had problems since. and my fish all act normal now. i have the basic cobalts..rt..and wild crosses.
its also..in dogs..when they work on a new colour..they are breeding for that colour. not for temperament. ive always noticed the newer colours are very nervous dogs. for instance..when the red poodles came out..if they got a red one in the batch..theyd keep it for breeding. cause of the colour . not for the temperament.

[poconogal]

April, That is so true. I have a white German Shepard. He is very nervous, not at all the way a regular German Shepard is, temperment wise. Before I adopted the white one, I had a regular black/tan Shepard. She had the typical Shepard temperment, cautious but calm, and very trustworthy. My white one is... well, nuts! Everything scares him, noises, objects, and I do not trust him with people other than my husband and I. Over the years, I've come across other white Shepards, and found out that they too, had nervous, behavioural problems. I feel that it has to do with breeding for the white color. That is what started me thinking about all of the breeding to obtain the colors and patterns of Discus that we have today, and the possibility of their being very highly bred and nervous/high strung.

[lhforbes12]

Hmmmmmm...it's funny but I ahve been thinking exactly the same thing as Connie and April have lately. I just started keeping discus again about a year and a half ago after a 25 year hiatus. My discus don't come to the front of the tank to greet me and pretty much distrust anything they can see. Years ago all of my discus knew ME, and I do mean that they could recognize me from another person. In fact if I, my wife, or our kids passed by any of their tanks they would immediately come to the front of the tank, if someone they didn't know came in the room they would hide. The fish I see now just don't seem to have the intelligence to tell one person from another, or perhaps they don't see as well. Whatever the case discus seem to have become, perhaps, more beautiful but a lot different in bad ways too. They are also a LOT weaker than I remember, I never used to have any sort of medical problems, now, even though they are better fed and get far more water changes, they always seem to have one thing or another wrong with them.
Just my two cents.

Larry

[Tony_S]

Thats the thing with inbreeding....it concentrates genetic traits both good and bad.

A good example of Rods statement, and good example as to why carefull OUTcrossing is important, Is the vision problem with some blue diamonds.
Not as large a problem today as it was, say 5 years ago, its improving....but it gives you a great example of undesirable 'hidden' and or recessive traits being passed on.

The "skittish" theory is possible in some cases....although I dont think its the problem we COULD make it out to be....In most cases, skittish discus are the result of improper care, handling, and unhealthy discus in general.

But...with that said....I dont keep any of the 'designer' discus many of you 'MUST HAVE!' Im an old schooler myself...gimme a good Red Turk anyday.
simple discus = more simple genetics.
Neon designer discus = HIGHLY cross bred and inbred.


Tony

[poconogal]

...The "skittish" theory is possible in some cases....although I dont think its the problem we COULD make it out to be....In most cases, skittish discus are the result of improper care, handling, and unhealthy discus in general.

But...with that said....I dont keep any of the 'designer' discus many of you 'MUST HAVE!' Im an old schooler myself...gimme a good Red Turk anyday.
simple discus = more simple genetics.
Neon designer discus = HIGHLY cross bred and inbred.
Tony

I know I've seen it posted on Simply by various people that they seem to find their Pidgeon Bloods much more unfriendly than their Blue Diamonds. I have noted that in my own tank. I've also read from some that they've found the BDs to be more prone to HITH than the reds. That could be mishandling and unhealthy fish, or a weakness in their genetics. The Discus I had years ago - friendly, not skittish - were Red Turqs - and Tony, as you said, simple Discus = more simple genetics. I also had two adult wilds (so I was told) but I think they were a wild cross, but again, simple Discus... They were also very friendly, not skittish, and as Larry said in his post, they all recognized me. My husband could not stand anywhere near the tank at feeding time, because they did not recognize him. I used to make him stay at the other end of the room. (I'm sure that made him feel special). ;) I'm pretty certain that my Discus have not been mishandled, they were not imported, but bred in NJ, they do eat like little pigs and are active, so I don't feel that they are unhealthy, and I have confidence in my care of them, else they probably would not be eating well and active. Just don't go near the tank, cause they get spooked so easily! Why?? Hmmm, Designer Discus?? Tony, I like that term, :thumbsup: and I feel that is the problem with mine. Because of this, I've decided that if (actually when is more like it, I think) I purchase any more Discus, I'll be looking for some good old Red Turqs, or any other strain that is not too Designer! Quite frankly, although I think that my current Discus are just beautiful, I don't really like them!