NEED HELP!!!!!! DARK AND CLAMPED FINS!!!

[wvufan96]

Hey guys,

First post and I wish it could be for a better reason. Please note I'm "not" a newbie in aquaria or Discus keeping but I haven't had the need to test the waters of Discus ailments.

To begin, I recently placed my two adult Discus (approx. 4 years old) in my 125 which used to house a large Oscar which passed away. I suspect she died from flukes but she was about 9 years old so I can't be certain. In any event, the tank was empty in terms of fish for roughly seven days thus, I thought any fluke[s] would have died off.

After this period, I put in my two Discus. All seemed great so I added two Blue's from a LFS I trust. Everything was still fine after a week. I added two more snakeskins from the same LFS. A week or so later, all is good. These were much smaller additions and everyone was happy and eating.

Yesterday, BAM . . . my two adult Discus are dark! The have slime (in spots), their gill movement is too rapid and their fins are clamped. I have seen a little fraying of the fins on the worst of the two. I haven't observed any white feces though it's possible. No significant symptoms on any of the other fish.

My parameters are fine. 0 Amm, 0 nit, around 10 Nitrate, and Ph is neutral (I've just began working on this due to the tank switch). Haven't had any wild Ph or Temp fluctuations.

Now, my hypothesis is that it's flukes and probably a secondary bacterial infection. Maybe velvet along with the flukes? The white slimy patches I cannot account for other than speculating Discus Plague which seems a bit out there given the circumstances and the FAST onslaught here. I think that these two are exhibting the symptoms while the others aren't because they've simply been in the tank longer.

With all that said, I've added some PA "parasite" med. I double-dosed because I'm sure this is diluted. This is the only thing availiable locally. It has metro, praqil, and some acriflavin so it was the best I could get my hands on quickly. I CAN also get my hands on some "Fluke-tabs" but I didn't today insofar as I didn't know whether that was a bit much. I've also dosed heavy with salt and I'm raising the temp to approx 90 or thereabout (which is dicey due to an African Sailfin Cat I have in there).

Again, my parameters are still good after the meds. No noticable difference at all and all fish eat. Incidentely, I feed brine, shrimp (chopped) and (don't hate me) blood worms. The ill fish ate earlier today w/ some garlic but were not interested tonight which is another bad sign. They're know just hanging around in upper corners though their color is a little better.

I ordered some straight metro 250 capsules along with some straight Praqil. It should be here tomorrow inasmuch as I paid the $25 to have it FedExed overnight. I intend to do about a 50% water change and then dose heavy with the two meds listed above. If it's not here tomorrow, I'm buying the Fluke-Tabs and hitting that (providing my fish are still alive).

Any help would be appreciated! I would like to know if I'm missing something.

Thanks in advance!

[steve.ryall]

Hi wvufan96,

I am no expert, but you added fish from your LFS twice if I read right, and even though they might be trusted retailer, you still need to have a QT period of at least 4 weeks for each lot you added.
I would suspect you have had an infection crossed from your new fish.

The experts here will help with a remedy, but QT is really important so you dont get this problem again. JMO

Good luck
Steve

[poconogal]

First, I think I would slow down with the meds, and not start hitting them with everything in a panic. Second, if its gill flukes, Prazi Pro is a gentle and effective treatment for them, as well as other external parasites. I would prefer that over Fluke-Tabs. And, as Steve said "The experts here will help with a remedy, but QT is really important so you dont get this problem again."
Connie

[lhforbes12]

WVU,
I had something very similar a while back and also thought it was Discus Plague, it turned out to be a bacterial infection. Two threads you might want to read are here; http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=50775 & http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49878 .
If it were me I would start with a salt dip (4 tblsps to 5 gallons water) leave them in there for 30 minutes or until they roll. Treat with Potassium Permamgante (PP) at 2 ppm (3 treatments a day apart) followed by Furan 2. Continue the salt dips every day. If you can drop your pH easily get it down to the 6.5 range, do NOT raise the temperature. If you can't find PP many use Formalin/Malachite Green (FMG) mix (Rid-Ich and many others use this formula) but the FMG only helped a little for my fish. Furan 2 was what cured them, but PP was also important (they were fine and eating well after the Furan 2 but still breating rapidly, after PP treatment the rapid breathing stopped.

hth, Larry

Be sure to at least read the first thread, it's long but worth it.

[Kindredspirit]

You never gave me the link to your thread:( or did you?




Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[pcsb23]

I suspect she died from flukes but she was about 9 years old so I can't be certain. In any event, the tank was empty in terms of fish for roughly seven days thus, I thought any fluke[s] would have died off.

possible that eggs or cysts would survive that long, depending on temps.



After this period, I put in my two Discus. All seemed great so I added two Blue's from a LFS I trust. Everything was still fine after a week. I added two more snakeskins from the same LFS. A week or so later, all is good. These were much smaller additions and everyone was happy and eating.

Without quarantining?? High risk.



Yesterday, BAM . . . my two adult Discus are dark! The have slime (in spots), their gill movement is too rapid and their fins are clamped. I have seen a little fraying of the fins on the worst of the two. I haven't observed any white feces though it's possible. No significant symptoms on any of the other fish.

Suspect some bacterial/parasite stress related infection from either new fish or old dead fish. Also suspect water quality too.



My parameters are fine. 0 Amm, 0 nit, around 10 Nitrate, and Ph is neutral (I've just began working on this due to the tank switch). Haven't had any wild Ph or Temp fluctuations.

What do you mean working on it (ph)? What is your current temp and actual ph? Whats your w/c regime?



Now, my hypothesis is that it's flukes and probably a secondary bacterial infection. Maybe velvet along with the flukes? The white slimy patches I cannot account for other than speculating Discus Plague which seems a bit out there given the circumstances and the FAST onslaught here. I think that these two are exhibting the symptoms while the others aren't because they've simply been in the tank longer.

Possible but not certain. I would suspect bacterial or internal parasite.



With all that said, I've added some PA "parasite" med. I double-dosed because I'm sure this is diluted. This is the only thing availiable locally. It has metro, praqil, and some acriflavin so it was the best I could get my hands on quickly. I CAN also get my hands on some "Fluke-tabs" but I didn't today insofar as I didn't know whether that was a bit much. I've also dosed heavy with salt and I'm raising the temp to approx 90 or thereabout (which is dicey due to an African Sailfin Cat I have in there).

Raising temps in bacterial cases without proper treatment most often results in lost fish so be warned. I wouldn't just yet, go for 84f until a diagnosis is more certain.



Again, my parameters are still good after the meds. No noticable difference at all and all fish eat. Incidentely, I feed brine, shrimp (chopped) and (don't hate me) blood worms. The ill fish ate earlier today w/ some garlic but were not interested tonight which is another bad sign. They're know just hanging around in upper corners though their color is a little better.

Nothing wrong with frozen blood worms. Eating is encouraging.



I ordered some straight metro 250 capsules along with some straight Praqil. It should be here tomorrow inasmuch as I paid the $25 to have it FedExed overnight. I intend to do about a 50% water change and then dose heavy with the two meds listed above. If it's not here tomorrow, I'm buying the Fluke-Tabs and hitting that (providing my fish are still alive).

Don't bounce around between meds. Inapprpopriate dosing of meds kills more fish than doing nothing.



Any help would be appreciated! I would like to know if I'm missing something.

Thanks in advance!

What size are these fish?
Is the tank planted or BB or just with a substrate of some sort?
What type of filtration is in use?
Do you have a QT tank? If so get it setup.
Can you get PP or Formalin and Malachite Green?
Can you get Furan 2?

Firstly, I am not a lover of salting the main tank, I much prefer to use salt baths and they can be effective in helping to manage the situation. So I would recommend doing a salt bath, use 2 tablespoons per gallon of water and bath for 20 mins, watch all the time, if it rolls net it back into the main or qt tank.

Do daily large w/c on the main tank, 50% or so and match temps. Use a dechlorinator if necessary.

BTW, I don't think it is plague, extremely rare!

[wvufan96]

Could be an infection I suppose from the new additions but I doubt it because 1) the new additions are fine and 2) the LFS had them for roughly a month before my purchase. He keeps them in separate quarters so . . .

Anyway, this stuff really looks bacterial. I can get formalin here I think, but I am certain I can get Binox which I am somewhat afraid to use. I think it would adversely effect my biology and I really don't need water issues at this point. However, the Discus do not look good so I am afraid not to do anything in terms of meds. This slime is bad to the point of raw, white patches appearing.

I did a salt bath last night to no avail. I will do so again after while. The tank has been treated with salt as well.

I need some help with tank temp. I have got it to about 88-90, w/ increased oxygen, but is that too high or not high enough. Their gill rate has me a bit worried to have the temp as high as it is much less going any higher.

Any ideas?

[Kindredspirit]

If it is bacterial 88-90 is too high ~ shld be around 84ish I believe;)



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[wvufan96]

A little more detail here . . .

The tank is a 125. The filtration is comprised of three HOB Marineland Emperor 400's. The tank is a gravel bed with "some" plants.

The sick adult Discuses are about the size of a baseball. That is too say, they're approx. 4 to 5 inches in length and say about 3 inches in height. The other discus are far smaller.

My Ph is reading at 7.2. I normally run the tank at 82 to 84 degrees. I am beginning to use RO, or distilled water, but I can't really make enough with my unit to keep up with my cleaning regiment (once every three or four days) and my 75 gal. reef. Thus I use tap sometimes but my nitrates are still below 15. I am trying to lower the Ph somewhat my using peat in the filters. I haven't but perhaps .4 drop in three weeks.

Again, my water parameters read ideal; i.e., 0 Amm., 0 Nitrite, less than 15 Nitrate, and the Ph shows a bit high for my taste at 7.2.

I do not have a quarantine tank but can do so if necessary to treat these guys.

I'm going to do another water change and a salt bath (outside the tank). I may try formalin in a bath as well and I intend to slowly decrease the tank temp insofar as I've seen no benefit thus far.

Any more ideas? Thanks for the help.

[pcsb23]

Temp 84 for now, until we know.
Don't bother with the peat.
Use tap and don't worry about ph, its not a problem.
Salt in the tank will kill plants so doing baths is good.
QT tank is an absolute necessary for me.
Daily 50% w/c's, make sure you use a dechlor (like Prime or similar).

All fish carry certain pathogens and parasites, they develop immunity to these. When new fish are introduced you can introduce a pathogen/parasite that the existing fish is not immune to, so it sucumbs. The opposite happens too, in that the new fish are fine until introduced but for some reason it tends to be the existing fish.

If its bacterial treating in a planted tank that size will be expensive.

[wvufan96]

Okay, just moved them out. Returning the main tank to "normal" with tap and 84 deg. Working on 50% water change now.

The two moved Discus are in a Gladlock 20 gal tote w/ air stone and heat. Moving their temp down too. Nothing as far as meds in there as of now. I'll keep an eye on the parameters and adjust accordingly should they go south.

Question is do I go with salt and/or meds for bacteria NOW or simply salt? These guys are going on their sides and the slime is REALLY bad. Looks like someone just rubbed them with a brillo pad. I've never seen anything like it.

Has to be bacterial. I'm thinking I was wrong about the parasites.

The only thing I can get RIGHT NOW is Binox (AP product) and maybe maracin.

Should I treat w/ this in the temp quarantine or is it too late?

[pcsb23]

Well, if they are still alive its not too late. You say they are on their sides? make sure there is enough air in there, it may be from moving them. As they seem way distressed I'd use salt in the aquarium this time around, and use a bath tomorrow. 2 Tablespoons per 10 gallons for long term in aquarium. I don't know Binox so can't advise. If the fish are on their sides through infection then it is bacterial and you do need to treat, it takes them down real fast sometimes, but they can be surprisingly tough. If the binox is maracin dose as per the container. Re-dose after each w/c too.

[5star]

Seems like you are putting lots of differnt meds ,or trying to treat to many things at once-I am not a expert but try metro-add salt and crank the temp to at least 88.degrees.hth

[wvufan96]

Okay, seems as there are a wide array of opinions on this matter. Moreover, I don't think anyone understands the quickness in which this took hold nor the worsening state of my fish.

In any event, this looks bacterial to me so I misdiagnosed the problem as flukes originally (due to pre-existing tank condition that I beleived solved) and probably therefore, have lost my fish. This is an extremely aggressive bacteria and to be candid, I've never seen anything like it before. The local Discus guru concurs in his observation.

IT LOOKS AS THOUGH SOMEONE HAS SANDPAPERED THEIR SIDES! This has occurred in literally less than three days. Their gills are not as rapid now, but fins are still clamped, their color is dark and one has began to lay flat and simply float.

With that in mind, here's what I'm doing: 1) I removed the fish and again, one is on it's side as though it's lost bouyancey (sp?) thus I doubt it makes it, 2) I treated them with Metro, Praqil and the Binox (sodium chloride; i.e. salt, and nitrofurazone), 3) I did the same with the main tank, and 4) I put the temp back at 84 in both applications.

Please note salt does not work. I've tried a bath and a dip out of the tank. Heat does not work. Parasite Guard with Metro, Praqil, and Acriflavin doesn't work. I don't have access to a formaldahyde based med or a means to get it here before Monday so there you have it. I have to use what I have access to.

Tank looks okay in terms of fish and paramaters. Did a fifty percent change beforehand although it was fine anyway.

Discus look bad in quarantine.

I'm out of idea's and frankly, I don't know what this is.

Anyone want to propose something in the alternative?

[pedsdoc]

I can't tell you how sorry I am for your delimma. I had exactly the same rapid events happen when I got my first 4 discus from a mail-order company via my LFS. These fish came in very dark and very cold. Within in 72 hours...total loss. I noticed the "disintegration" of their fins and then the "rubbed by sandpaper" look as well.
In hindsight, the LFS lost almost all of the fish in that order, so it was likely a problem with transport or something in the original tank.
Since then (months later), started over with completely new tank, and JUST picked up 4-5 inch Discus from local breeder/distributor and am keeping my fingers crossed!
Not sure where yours got into trouble, but it sure sounds similar to what mine went through... Again, sorry...

[wvufan96]

Well, one has passed on sorry to say. I'll miss him and I expect the other to do so here shortly.

This is something rare I'm convinced. The local Discus expert is at a loss over this and I can't narrow it down to anything specific. Seems as though this does happen and in my LFS's it's called Discus Crash. Probably same thing as plague but who knows.

[steve.ryall]

Sorry to hear you lost your fish wvufan96,

You had some good advice, but sometimes it all happens so fast we dont know where to turn, be sure that your fish's best intersets are at heart here, and no-one likes to hear of dead fish.

One point I need to make is, that even though your LFS qt's fish before selling to you, you also need to QT your new purchases by introducing a scraficial fish of your own, this might have saved the infection spreading.


All fish carry certain pathogens and parasites, they develop immunity to these. When new fish are introduced you can introduce a pathogen/parasite that the existing fish is not immune to, so it sucumbs. The opposite happens too, in that the new fish are fine until introduced but for some reason it tends to be the existing fish.


There are some threads on QT procedures here, might be worth a look.

Again, I hope the rest soon get better wvufan96,

Steve

[Kindredspirit]

Wvufan ~

I am so very sorry for all that you are going thru ~ but it will make you a stronger man ~

I kinda went thru this recently and infact still recovering ~ well ....my fish ~ I think in my case time was of the essence ~ the night before I noticed a teensy weensy white mark on my largest discus ~ period....that was it ~ and I had a friend over at the time who is so very wise in this area and a Mod on Sc and we looked at it and stated the obvious 'keep an eye on it ...prolly scraped himself ' ( on all the deco I DON'T have in the tank as itz bb with nothing..lol!) and do a wc ( but of course!)

The next morning ~ not even 12 hours later ~ they were all very very ill ~ It hit them hard and took them down even quicker and I mean down in the literal sense ~

The next five days were something that if I ever went thru again wld be too soon for me ~

And I qt'd ~ in a dif room ~ Only I can qt and still almost knock out a whole tank of my fav fish ~

Read ~ it'll make you feel better ~ dumb things people do tend to make us feel better re our own actions ~ why is that? LOL!http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=50775

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[wvufan96]

Well, I lost them both and they will be sorely missed. I really loved those two fish, but I did the absolute best I could. Whatever got them was so rare and so aggressive that I'm still scratching my head.

I've really never seen anything so aggressive but now I know the signs to be looking for should it happen again. Again, I know the quarantine method has its benefits, but I don't think the additions contributed to their demise. I still lay my money on some pre-existing condition in the tank. However, I will QT from now on just to err on the side of caution.

In the mean time, my main tank is getting nuked. I've hit it with Metro for the obvious, Praqil for the gills, and Maracyn for any bacterial issues. I know you guys will say don't, but hey . . . I'm not letting the four juveniles succumb without a fight. Right now, they all look good and the parameters are still all ideal. Everyone started swimming after about six hours of the Maracyn dose and they are eating well.

I'm using everything I have at my disposal to eradicate whatever this stuff is/was, but back to my two guys. My wife was actually upset with the loss too which kinda surprised me in the sense that they always ran (darted from her) when she approached the tank. Myself conversely, they always rushed and would take the food right from my hand. Still kinda sad about the whole thing, but I'm really still baffled. You know, I've kept freshwater fish for about ten years and a reef for almost as long and I've never been blindsided like this. I thought I could get it done with them, but I digress.

Oh well, I had them for five years or roughly thereabout and they got me started in the Discus hobby . . . I'm glad they did.

I think the thing that bothers real aquarists (ecspecially Discus and reef keepers) is that we keep pets for a long time (my Oscar lived 10 years which I think is a long time for a fish). We become attached to them just like our dogs and cats.

Discus rush to food. They have personality. Hell, they don't even move when you clean around them. They're not normal in that sense and thus, we feel as though they are like a member of the family.

My wife named them along time ago when they were very small. I forgot that and when she said, "Frick and Frack just couldn't beat it so it must be bad" I kinda took a step back. I realized then that everyone who experiences the ups and downs of being around Discus (and those that keep them) understands that "fish" are more than just fish. I also realized that when I buried my Oscar and I'm sure I will again later today when I do the same for Frick and Frack.

I appreciate the help you all lent and I will look around from time to time.

Again, thanks for all the help.