Food For Thought..... Deformities [Archive]

chompy

06-18-2006, 04:46 PM

Although the bulldog discus is unique, they just look way too unnatural for my liking. I too put the bulldog in the blood parrot catagory... something mother nature would never create and something I wouldn't buy. People always want something new and unique though so I don't see this kind of thing going away. But if you like them... all the power to ya :)

But I can't say I dissagree with breeding them because I don't know if being a bulldog discus hinders them in anyway. Does anyone know if they have a shorter life span or are seceptible to anything.

I don't agree with breeding anything if you are weakening a species... dosn't matter if its a bulldog discus (if infact they are weaker), pug dog, or bubble eye goldfish. But I have no problems with things like discus (tank bred), flowerhorns, or muts because they are perfectly healthy.

Dissident

06-18-2006, 05:19 PM

Don't people breed for albino traits in discus too?

mickeyG

06-18-2006, 06:17 PM

I think that selective breeding or "changing genes" is good as long as it is benefiting/improving/helping the species in some way. Also if it is benefiting mankind - regenerating lost tissue etc. Selective breeding for money or profit should be criminal. If these fish were an accident of nature gone all spooky (like a deformity), then they have the right to a good life just like everyone else. Though I'm not crazy about the look - I would not cull them. If done for profit I would cull the perpetrators.

Kindredspirit

06-18-2006, 06:25 PM

I think those that enjoy them
should be proud to own their deformed fish.
Larry

Larry! lol!

As I understand it they were deformed initially and then continued to breed ~thus we have them today .....

I guess it is all what you are used to ~ I am not sure if I could get used to them ~ they look ' cartoonish' to me ~ and they have a very fat chin ~ I think thatz the chin! ~ a definite eyesore to me ~ not pleasing to the eye ~ and a discus shld be IMO~

And they appear elongated to me ~ if that is the right word!
I guess the million dollar question for me is: Were they culls and abominations to begin with and someone just fell in love with them ....and so it continued?

But what is "normal"? Some wld say that is a relative term ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

( thanks Beth ~ I so wanted to know more re this issue :) )

Dissident

06-18-2006, 06:43 PM

Maybe someone should talk to the breeders of bulldogs and those who keep them instead of throwing around speculation?

Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they should be culled, unless you are the self-appointed definitive voice on discus.

The fact is people breed for all kinds of traits in their fish. If people like them and want them and there is no genetic damage to the fish's overall health then fine.

IMO I feel albinos are ugly, and I don’t like high-fin/high body all that much. I’m not about to start a thread about what the best way to make discus-fish-stick out of them quite yet.

This whole thread is based off of personal preference and speculation and has NO substance whatsoever.

Kindredspirit

06-18-2006, 07:01 PM

Maybe someone should talk to the breeders of bulldogs and those who keep them instead of throwing around speculation?

Sounds like a plan to me:) ~

Dis ~ come on now ~ Lets dont take all this too personally ~ you are so wise I bet if you wanted you cld contribute to this thread ...yes? Please?? ~ I wld like to know more ~ I think we can all discuss with respect and not step on anyone's toes ~ Hopefully ~

You seem to know more than you let on.....;)

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

Ryan

06-18-2006, 07:14 PM

I really dislike these discus. There are a couple things that I'm curious about because I've never owned them, but some of the reasons I'd be leery of them are:

1. Does the smashed in face and high body change anything about the fish in a negative way? For instance, aren't some fish like balloon rams or balloon mollies actually shaped that way because of a misshapen spine? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought when you had fish that were smooshed like that, it was because of a bone structure issue. If that's the case, is that healthy? And is that something you'd want to breed for?

2. If bulldogs become fairly common and people start trying to spawn them with normal discus (assuming that they can spawn normally), what is to keep the genes from spreading into "normal" stock? Right now, tons of discus have throw-backs to pigeon bloods or red turks, but do you want "bulldog" genes hiding in that mix somewhere? I wouldn't want to breed two "normal" round discus and end up with a huge percentage of "bulldogs" because those genes were present.

3. I think colors are one thing... those are cosmetic and in the aquarium they aren't going to matter much one way or another. You can get into the debate about "where do you draw the line?" but to me, breeding for an albino fish isn't the same as breeding for a fish with a misshapen body. Color and pigmentation isn't going to get a fish singled out and killed in our tanks like it would in the wild, so I don't think you're doing anything to hurt the fish by breeding for a specific color. However, if you are breeding a fish that is structually altered in some way, is that healthy? Is there anything about it that negatively affects the fish?

Having said that, I'd like to point out that I don't care much for any fish that seems to have difficulty behaving normally. This includes a lot of the goldfish (especially the bubble-eyed ones, what were they thinking?), super veil angels that have issues swimming, all types of blood parrots, balloon rams and balloon mollies that seem to waddle rather than swim, and the long-finned oscars, which unfortunately seem to get dyed blue and pink a lot here... so they can't swim AND they're injected with dye.

Ryan

Ryan

06-18-2006, 07:20 PM

This whole thread is based off of personal preference and speculation and has NO substance whatsoever.

Beth never said she was looking for a solid, definitive answer as to whether or not we should allow bulldogs or cull them, she just asked for everyones' opinions on why it is or isn't okay to produce these sorts of fish. If you like them and enjoy them, that's fine... but there are many people who do not care for them. This is a discussion forum, so I don't see how posting a topic of discussion could have "no substance." If anything, this topic will probably be an interesting (and heated) one.

Ryan

April

06-18-2006, 07:34 PM

have these fish been sent to discus shows? ie. aca, duisburg? aquarama? how are they judged if they have made their way there? were they judged in their own category..or are they to be judged on the description of a discus. and would a judge choose a bulldog over a regular round discus?
curious..
carol? you judged..whats your thoughts on this?

kaceyo

06-18-2006, 07:54 PM

seems to me the word deformity is being used here when no one has actually shown any evidence of it. It's rumered that bulldogs have fewer virtibrae but as far as I know thats all it is. A rumer based on speculation by people who don't like them. People tend to think that they are qualified to decide where the line is drawn and judge everything beyond that line as abominations and anyone who doesn't agree is by comparison to themselves moraly corrupt. There are many people who believe keeping any kind of fish in a tank for personal pleasure is an abomination against nature. Are they right? How many of you have owned dachshunds or any type of bulldogs (the canine kind) or miniature or toy dog of any kind? It's well known and documented that they were developed by breeding deformities into their lines that resulted in shortened leggs or a convoluted sinus or whatever. Dachshunds have trouble running as compared to standard shaped dogs but they live quality lives. This is kinda beside the point tho. If I like a certain type of fish and it's healthy and whole and I think beautiful then why should others be upset by this? It's opinion, not a moral issue.

Kacey

chompy

06-18-2006, 08:09 PM

Dissident

06-18-2006, 08:11 PM

I really dislike these discus. There are a couple things that I'm curious about because I've never owned them, but some of the reasons I'd be leery of them are:

I agree with you there Ryan, I don't particullarly care for them either. But I think the best way to look at it is with an open mind.

1. Does the smashed in face and high body change anything about the fish in a negative way? For instance, aren't some fish like balloon rams or balloon mollies actually shaped that way because of a misshapen spine? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought when you had fish that were smooshed like that, it was because of a bone structure issue. If that's the case, is that healthy? And is that something you'd want to breed for?

That is the $10,000 question. Speculating and alluding that they are unhealthy or anything less would be irresponsible.

2. If bulldogs become fairly common and people start trying to spawn them with normal discus (assuming that they can spawn normally), what is to keep the genes from spreading into "normal" stock? Right now, tons of discus have throw-backs to pigeon bloods or red turks, but do you want "bulldog" genes hiding in that mix somewhere? I wouldn't want to breed two "normal" round discus and end up with a huge percentage of "bulldogs" because those genes were present.

Yes that would be a great concern if it is genetic, espically if there are other health issues. Again do we know if it IS a genetic trait? If it was a recessive wouldn't they be more common, 'bulldogs' are not that new to the scene.

3. I think colors are one thing... those are cosmetic and in the aquarium they aren't going to matter much one way or another. You can get into the debate about "where do you draw the line?" but to me, breeding for an albino fish isn't the same as breeding for a fish with a misshapen body. Color and pigmentation isn't going to get a fish singled out and killed in our tanks like it would in the wild, so I don't think you're doing anything to hurt the fish by breeding for a specific color. However, if you are breeding a fish that is structually altered in some way, is that healthy? Is there anything about it that negatively affects the fish?

Having said that, I'd like to point out that I don't care much for any fish that seems to have difficulty behaving normally. This includes a lot of the goldfish (especially the bubble-eyed ones, what were they thinking?), super veil angels that have issues swimming, all types of blood parrots, balloon rams and balloon mollies that seem to waddle rather than swim, and the long-finned oscars, which unfortunately seem to get dyed blue and pink a lot here... so they can't swim AND they're injected with dye.

Ryan

Do these 'bulldog' strains exist in the wild? Or is it a result of unethical breeding or other manipulation of the fish? Is this a natural, but rare, occurrence like albino strains?
Honestly, there are a few basic questions that need to be asked (and answered) before any substantial arguments can be postulated regarding bulldog/egg/whatever strains.

~~
Personally I'm not a fan of the appearance but I WILL NOT condemn the breeder/fish/whatever by only seeing a few pictures of a strain (like so many are already doing) that we have known to be in existence for some time now…
At least until I know exactly what we ARE looking at. And it seems no one does… yet.

\\edit\\add\\

Beth never said she was looking for a solid, definitive answer as to whether or not we should allow bulldogs or cull them, she just asked for everyones' opinions on why it is or isn't okay to produce these sorts of fish. If you like them and enjoy them, that's fine... but there are many people who do not care for them. This is a discussion forum, so I don't see how posting a topic of discussion could have "no substance." If anything, this topic will probably be an interesting (and heated) one.

Ryan

I wasn't trying to single out Beth at all, just trying to make a point that so far all comments regarding the strain are based of assumption. She jsut has the joy of being the topic starter for probably what is going to turn out to be the thread of the month. (think you admins should have an award for that)

Kindredspirit

06-18-2006, 08:12 PM

But for some it is a moral issue Kacey ~ I guess ~ but I want to know why all the breeders that we know here ~ do not breed them or sell them...yet? Do they spawn? Do they get sick more? Differently? I am so curious! Are they more expensive? We are pretty much learning who likes them and who wld float them in their tanks and and who wld not ~

But I want to know who breeds them and HOW ~ and why ~ too ~ hellums letz just put it all out there:) And I want to see a bone structure ~ a diagram ~ an x-ray will work:p !

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

Ryan

06-18-2006, 08:21 PM

All very good points. I guess what I really would like to know is how we came up with bulldogs and why they are different. I'm not a breeder, so I hope some of the folks who've had experience with these fish will reply with their thoughts on the fish. I'm also not a biologist or ichthyologist, but it would be nice to hear an explanation as to why these fish are shaped this way, and what (if any) problems or difficulties (or even advantages) they may have over "standard" discus.

Ryan

crimson cross

06-18-2006, 08:39 PM

The genetics for breeding "round" fish is quite attainable to most hobbists who understands the basic laws of breeding and raising discus, but not so for hi fin, hi body fish.....maybe this is where the line separates the men from the boys or the women from the girls.....
Just my two bulldogs worth..

On a side note, even great breeders like Schmidt Focke, Hans Jurgen Zell, Manfred Gobel, Siegfried Hohmann and to some extent, Jack Wattley sought to have fishes with higher bodies and fins.....and I wonder why.???
Phil.

poconogal

06-18-2006, 10:39 PM

Don't people breed for albino traits in discus too?
I really don't think that a color, or lack of color, can be considered a deformity. Color is superficial, for aesthetics. IMO, A deformed spine, or whatever the bulldogs have that is deformed about them, is quite another issue.

Dissident

06-18-2006, 10:49 PM

Did a little digging, not much info out there regarding the strain.

I included two excerpts from one ‘JimmyL’ from discusasahoby.com and simplydiscus.com, not sure how reliable it is but it is very interesting. He does seem to be the only one posting any viable information regarding the strain.

Source: http://discusasahobby.com/forum/index.php?topic=4385

Bulldog is a special stain of discus that originated from the Wild Brown Discus with the charisteristic of having only 5 bars. They were large discus with super high fins and massive body. The old timer who saved them were very disappointed with them with flare gills and unable to fertilized eggs with their massive body. They were consider a cull and most would not keep them. Many previous masters with their own analysis of deformed fish and cull saying this kind of fish were missing a few vertebrates. Some breeders were able to breed them and found their offsprings carried their own characteristics and developed high fin and body. The original elongated wild characteristic has changed to round body with high fins. but the flare gills were still a problem. With selective breeding and improvement of the strain. The Bulldog name was discarded and different name were used and the "D" shape of fish was formed. Without knowing the original of the fish. Hobbyist had high praise of the fish and many champions were found among the offsprings. Short gill plates was still the problem. Even todays fish sold by some breeder without first screening them will show short gill plates of their fish. Some customers who complained about it get the answer that they will grow back...... ??? ???. that I know it's untrue from my fish. The normal fish with perfect gill plate has to be sold at a higher price and people were willing to pay for their body shape. Unfortanely only a few breeders appreciate their shape and willing to risk netting fewer profits and only develop the cobolt blue strain and not the others.

Source: http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=221050

In fact, most of the round discus in the market are carrying bulldog genes. They have been crossed with many fish and varieties to improve body shape. But not a pure bulldog like the blue tiger. The only thoroughbred are cobalt turquoise. The breeder use the grade B or grade C to cross with other fish. Not too many people can afford the grade AAA fish like Kumlin's. Mr. Wong does not breed the Bulldog. They require special technique to breed the grade A fish due to their body shape. Only grade B or C are able to fertilize eggs because of their less masculine body. He bought it from the same breeder in Penang. Min. order of 10 fish. That's why you only see a few fish in his store. He may have adults that he raised and cross with his own fish.

/edit/add/
buy posting this I am not advcoating that this is 100% truth. All that i could dig up durring a smoke break.

Dissident

06-18-2006, 10:57 PM

Squiggy

06-19-2006, 01:41 AM

But what is "normal"? Some wld say that is a relative term ~

Not true!...My relatives definately aren't normal....:alien:

On subject...I don't like Bulldogs. I think the breeding programs stepped out of bounds when the first peppered discus was marketed commercially. But, thats just me...

Martin

06-19-2006, 01:57 AM

I dont see the problem with calling them deforme, they are definately not normal, wouln't you call a discus with 2 tail fins deformed ?

aisarang

06-19-2006, 02:45 AM

I think the question would rely on the comfort zone of our hobby and our ethics. As this question really does approach both. I'll just give my thoughts and not rebuttle any other comments, as quite frankly i hadn't read them all. There are and always have been debates over the rights and wrongs and the boundaries that breeders can or can't tresspass before they're approaching the tasks of God. Fish and alot of aspects of society dwell on aesthetics, and for some time now, that's generally been what the masses agree upon as beautiful. If discus were bulldog faced naturally and we were breeding them to become round, in theory the round shapes would be a deformity and would the response we're giving them now, be hypothetically the same then? Furthermore, the question of whether or not it's right ot even attempt to procure a stable stock of "odd" out of the norm discus falls into the category of ethics. Is it morally ethical to even breed these fishes or are we becoming too cruel in our hobby and practice? It's all opionated, makin the topic that much harder to prove right or wrong, because in the end, there really isn't one.

Timbo

06-19-2006, 06:12 AM

to tell you the truth, it doesnt really matter if other people agree or disagree on ethical grounds...money talks.

if there is a market for them (and there certainly appears there is) breeders will produce and sell them. and they will probably be VERY expensive until supply catches up to demand

Martin

06-19-2006, 07:22 AM

There are some good things about these monsters. I have become more keen on keeping the wild strains and keeping them wild.
I hope more feel the same way.

lhforbes12

06-19-2006, 08:49 AM

seems to me the word deformity is being used here when no one has actually shown any evidence of it. Kacey

Kacey,
I believe you need a dicionary:

"Deformity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A deformity is a major difference in the shape of the body or a body part compared to the average shape for the area in question."

These discus are obviously deformed, now if you were to ask whether or not they are handicapped, that is a different matter. Dissident has answered that for us already though.

"Only grade B or C are able to fertilize eggs because of their less masculine body."

So... we have culls being produced by culls. I do stand by my original statement though "I think those that enjoy them should be proud to own their deformed fish. I've said this before, I feel about them the same way I feel about Blood Parrots, they are abominations but if you like them I see no reason not to keep them."

Larry

Tony_S

06-19-2006, 09:17 AM

There is no 'Standards commission' or 'Ethics commision' in the discus industry. If there was, we could submit concernes such as these to them...and they could let the hammer fall. Unfortunately there isnt, so we have nothing more than OPINIONS to share with each other.

seems to me the word deformity is being used here when no one has actually shown any evidence of it. It's rumered that bulldogs have fewer virtibrae but as far as I know thats all it is. A rumer based on speculation by people who don't like them.

Kacey, there is no speculation involved. It doesnt matter if these discus in question have fewer vertebra, curved spinal column or a straight spinal column etc. They ARE deformed in every sense and definition of the word.
Thus....the use of the word.

People tend to think that they are qualified to decide where the line is drawn and judge everything beyond that line as abominations and anyone who doesn't agree is by comparison to themselves moraly corrupt.

Yes Kacey....I do believe Im qualified to draw a line for myself, and yes, I do believe anything beyond that line is an abomination, and any who profit from said abomination, are themselves "moraly corrupt".
Do you not have any moral standards? Im willing to bet you do! You may believe that deformation of tropical fish isnt worthy of personal moral standards for yourself, and thats fine....but your asking/telling others they shouldnt have them??
It seems to me that you, and others have drawn a line (however vague) and are asking/telling the REST of us to stand behind it?
If its alright for you to ask me to stand behind YOUR line.....why isnt it alright for ME to ask you to stand behind MINE?

Let me give my OPINION on these fish.....

These discus in question IMO are disgusting...period. They are NOT natural in any way, shape or form...nor are they beautiful in any way shape or form. They are deformed, un-natural, freaks! Freaks which MAY occur in nature....but are quickly eliminated from the gene pool due to the fact they dont/cant survive because of NATURAL selection. NATURE has decided these fish dont belong...not humans.
Should they be bred domestically? IMO, NO!

And the domestic dog argument is a weak one at best....just because humans have been 'deforming' critters for centuries, doesnt mean its right to do so....

kaceyo

06-19-2006, 09:26 AM

Larry,
I stand corrected. Thank you. But my dachsund analogy still stands. If these fish were fluttering around the tank in distress then I could undersand the argument that it's an issue of ethics. As is, I think it's an asthetic preference. To be honest I don't care for the look of the face on the full blown bulldogs either. But I can admire them for the differences and can see how usefull they'd be in a breeding program where taller deeper fish are the goal.
To me a nicely shaped Blue Knight (or standing egg) has a regal look and is one of my favorit fish. The bulldog genes in it are what makes it so beautiful.

Kacey

kaceyo

06-19-2006, 09:51 AM

Tony,
I don't remember saying that other people shouldn't set their own standards or askng anyone to stand behind mine. Only that, yes you are qualified to draw the line "for yourself". It's the judging everyone who doesn't agree with you as being ethicaly challanged that I disagree with. And my "dog argument" had nothing to do with the idea that if we've been doing it for so long it must be OK. It was that these dogs live quality lives and that they have been accepted, their owners are not being judged moraly corrupt just for owning one.
So I return your own argument to you. Set your own standards, draw your own lines and don't judge others for setting theirs.

Kacey

Beth

06-19-2006, 09:55 AM

Quite a bit of reading and some very strong opinions here :shocked2:

Still ....... it's not quite what I'm looking for........ let me show a few pics here. How many of these fish would you cull ? and why?

Beth

06-19-2006, 09:57 AM

what about this one?

Beth

06-19-2006, 09:58 AM

and......

Beth

06-19-2006, 10:03 AM

ok........ how about this one??

crimson cross

06-19-2006, 10:12 AM

They are all very ugly and deformed too. Send them my way so I can cull them personally..Yeah, get rid of their gene pool and lets keep our "round" fish....

lhforbes12

06-19-2006, 10:16 AM

Kacey,
Please don't misunderstand my intent, or think that I am attacking you. I find that your posts show that you are intelligent and insightful, and I enjoy reading them.
I didn't mention your dogs analogy simply to remain brief. I agree with you about them, although I can't help but wonder why you chose to single out small breeds when it's actually the large breeds that have far more, and far more serious problems, than do the smaller breeds. But then we happen to "own" Maltese, so I am probably oversensitive in that regard. ("Own" is in quotes because if anyone "owns" anyone it's "The Boys" that own us. They let us stay around because we can open doors and they can't)
If you read my entire post you will see that I have nothing against the people who like the high finned, high bodied type discus. Beauty is definately in the eye of the beholder, and if that is what you like, by all means keep them. I only begin to have problems when "quality of life" becomes an issue. If the fish are capable of getting food, then I see no problem, even if they are incapable of breeding.
I personally feel that breeding for small eye size is also an abomination, made especially so because I see more and more posts about basically blind discus, and can't help wondering if breeding for small eyes isn't a major contributor to this problem, but I digress.

Larry

lhforbes12

06-19-2006, 10:29 AM

Beth,
To me they are all culls, with the exception of the PB's, which I personally don't see anything wrong with. But I am definately biased in this regard and dislike PBs, or yellow, orange, uni-color, or white, and especially red/white discus, so I may not be looking at the PB's closely enough. Before the ten billion flames start, let me say, "just because *I* don't care for them is certainly no reason for others not to keep them."

Larry

chompy

06-19-2006, 10:40 AM

I think pic 1 and 3 are culls... whenever I see these fish I always think of the elephant man.
I think we do far worse things creating things like bulldogs, and fancy goldfish. I personally think keeping wild caught discus(or africans) for anything other than breeding them is far worse.

Beth

06-19-2006, 10:53 AM

If Hi Finned and Hi Bodied Discus are ok for breeding programs..... what makes the Bulldog any less worthy ?? I understand that in the wild more likely than not the higher bodied Discus would be eliminated.

Discus in the wild have some less than desirable shapes as well..... You'll see more oblong ( elongated ) wilds then you would perfectly round ones..... Yes? No?

I'd be willing to bet that almost every single Discus person on this board would much prefer a round wild over an oblong shaped wild........ why?? Because it's more aestheticly pleasing. Should all Discus be perfectly round??

Is it more ok to have an oblong (elongated) Discus than it is to have a more higher bodied Discus in a breeding program??

My Opinion and only mine...... which Tony doesn't like might I add more for me on my side of the fish room :p ........

I don't have a problem with most Hi finned or Hi bodied Discus, of the pictures I posted I'd be proud to have any of them in my tanks... Why ?? Because I find them very aestheticly pleasing....... as for this one
I really don't find it as appealing........ but hey..... that's where I drew my line....

Beth

Beth

06-19-2006, 11:02 AM

Larry.........

To me they are all culls, with the exception of the PB's, which I personally don't see anything wrong with.

I guess that's where you drew your line........ But there's not much difference between that pb from the rest of those pics in my eyes.... That pidgeon is as high bodied as the rest......... I"d still have it.

Kenny ....
I hope you didn't mind me using this pic. He's a nice Discus ;)

Beth

terps

06-19-2006, 11:14 AM

The bulldog discus don't look good to me. I doubt there's a big market for them. They do look better than the culls in the link below:
http://www.angelfire.com/id/ttdiscuscenter/

Greg Richardson

06-19-2006, 11:32 AM

Terps. Yep. Now that is just plain sick in my eyes.
And to think they actually want you to pay for them. LOL!
Those must be their Valentine Day fish they sell.

Tony_S

06-19-2006, 11:32 AM

Kacey

Let me start by agreeing with this...

Kacey,
Please don't misunderstand my intent, or think that I am attacking you. I find that your posts show that you are intelligent and insightful, and I enjoy reading them.

Im not trying to insult you...belittle you...or anything of that nature.
But, yes...Ive made a judgement. Im a hardass and very opinionated....most on this forum know it....I know it....Beth knows it, and tells me about it on a daily basis....If you think less of me because Ive made a judgement...so be it.

I make judgements everyday....we all do. Its the difference in our own minds between right and wrong....I believe you are wrong....and so is my wife!!!!! LMFAO!!:D :D :D

So string me up....it wouldnt be the first time, it wont be the last! ;)

Tony

Ryan

06-19-2006, 11:36 AM

Wait for it.... wait for it.... I'm actually going to say it....

But................ Tony................

I actually agree with you. lol.

I think that these types of discus are starting to look more and more like blood parrots or jellybeans or whatever they call them now. Some of the pictures in the gallery show "bulldogs" or "standing eggs" that have flared gills, probably because they have shortened spines and it causes the face to be smashed in/compressed. That just doesn't seem like a good thing, IMO.

Ryan

Tony_S

06-19-2006, 11:48 AM

Wait for it.... wait for it.... I'm actually going to say it....

But................ Tony................

I actually agree with you. lol.

damn:inquisitive: ......Ryan....did you just say that OUTLOUD!?!:D

scary...hope you've got your bulletproof vest on!;)

Tony:p

tpl*co

06-19-2006, 12:01 PM

I think to each his own, I'm not going to pass judgement on another by the fish they keep! I just keep what I think are beautiful :).

Mrs. Tony S. Of the fish pictures you posted the fish I'd probably won't keep was #33, I don't like the forehead on that one, too flat and something about it's mouth. I wouldn't kill it, but I wouldn't keep it. Of the pictures I'd keep #35 :).

Tina

lhforbes12

06-19-2006, 12:09 PM

Larry.........

I guess that's where you drew your line........ But there's not much difference between that pb from the rest of those pics in my eyes.... That pidgeon is as high bodied as the rest......... I"d still have it.

Beth

Beth,
There is where you and I definately part company. The PB is fine to me, it doesn't have the compressed face of the other fish, nor the straight flat forehead of the one. It is simply high bodied, to me very different from a "bulldog". The one thing I can say about all of the "bulldogs" I have seen is they all have quite striking colors, if they were "normal" I would find almost all of them very beautiful. I even like the colors of the last one you showed, but I do love green discus, and Ocean Greens, even though they are uni-colored, are one of my favorites.

Larry

tjc

06-19-2006, 12:21 PM

We breed other animals for the traits we want.(ie. dogs, cats,fish). To each his own. Different shapped fish catch on with different people. Discus purist probably don't like all the colors that have been bred into our fish. I thought egg shape fish were good looking fish.

Beth

06-19-2006, 12:50 PM

I make judgements everyday....we all do. Its the difference in our own minds between right and wrong....I believe you are wrong....and so is my wife!!!!! LMFAO!!
:p :p :p sofa tonight :p :p :p

Beth,
There is where you and I definately part company. The PB is fine to me, it doesn't have the compressed face of the other fish, nor the straight flat forehead of the one. It is simply high bodied, to me very different from a "bulldog".
Larry
maybe approaching bulldog?????

The Pic. below is not even a bulldog. Just Hifin Hibody eventhough he has a bulldog genes in him. He is lacking the distinguish protruding snout of a bulldog that's what novice hobbyist referred or called deformaities. Jimmy

approaching Bulldog ????

What classifies the difference between a hifin, hibody and a bulldog...?? ... is it the mouth only ... ?? Is it the forehead... ?? Is it the lack of vertebrae... or the size of the vertebrea.... ?? could it be .......... ascorbic acid deficiency...?? what about lordosis??

questions I'd love to get answered........ anyone??

Beth

tpl*co

06-19-2006, 01:16 PM

There are some others that I used to see that I don't anymore that had really long fins but normalish type bodies and then the "bat" style discus. What ever happened to those?

Tina

Kindredspirit

06-19-2006, 02:00 PM

I had a really "highfin" discus from Dan ~ I loved it ~ but it didnt have that cute little face and prominent lips that these do ~

It was called a High Bodied discus ~ I think the squished in face and the long neck gives it the name "bulldog"....

I would not buy one but If I rec'vd one free I may take it ~ I wouldnt cull it ~ these discus are here so as someone said ....they have a right to live ~

( Beth how DO you put up with him?;) )

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif

Elcid

06-19-2006, 02:07 PM

Personally I don't like bulldogs and I've never seen them in person. Are they generally healthy and live a normal discus lifecycle in an average hobbiest tank? I know some expert may be able to grow them to massive size and keep them in the pink of health for a very long time but I'm wondering if some "ordinary hobbiest" with the typical grade bulldog that we Americans can buy has had any experience with these fish?

thanks,
Sandeep

lhforbes12

06-19-2006, 02:34 PM

Beth,
This is what MiamiDan had to say
""bulldog" is not a strain, but a characteristic of the body. Usually when the body is taller than longer, it is considered a high-fin, high-body. Some people call them "standing eggs". Now, if the fish has this type of body & also has the blunt face, then it can be considered a "bulldog". Here's a Red Spotted Green, considered a "bulldog". They are kinda funny looking. Some people love them, some hate them.."

Here's a link to that thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49692

I would add that to be a bulldog the opercula needs to also be mis-shapen.

btw Dan likes them

wolfbane

06-19-2006, 02:34 PM

Good point Sandeep, does anyone have any info on health of these fish?What is the lifespan as compared to good round fish?
I like high bodied fish, but don't care for the face of the bulldog, JMO

kaceyo

06-19-2006, 04:37 PM

Tony S,
I have no problem with your opinion of these fish or making judgments. I do start to take it a bit personaly when the judgments start drifting away from, in this case the fish, and towards the people who breed, buy or just like them. I know I shouldn't but... Since you say it wasn't intended that way, and if your wife can deal with it, so can I. I mean, there was another guy once back in the 80's who thought I was wrong. Of course I wasn't... :)
Beth, I don't think any of those fish are culls. I do agree with Larry and Tina on the one with the straight forhead tho.
I don't see anything wrong with BloodParrots either untill they start tatooing and cutting them. Are they any worse than a flowerhorn? But I really don't know much about them.

Kacey

Carol_Roberts

06-19-2006, 04:52 PM

My guess is that this gene is similar to the ones that produce Persian cats or Pekinese dogs.

Do you consider a Persian kitten to be a deformed creature? How about the dish face of an Arabian horse? One man's deformity may be another man's million dollar new strain. . . .

One reason discus are so popular is the gene elasticity - the variety of colors and patterns than can be produced. Look at Frontosas - Do you see a wide variety of color, pattern and shape? Nope.

And by the way, I believe this is a natural mutation - it may not survive in the wild, but it can occur.

ShinShin

06-19-2006, 06:11 PM

I personally have nothing against a high bodied, high finned discus, however, the pictured discus Beth shows from another thread would be culled from anything I would breed. I do not like the smashed "bulldog" face and consider it a defect. JMO, ;) .

Mat

ps. Carol, what makes you think it is a mutation rather than a physical defect, like a curved or compressed spine. I am sure these fish have been x-ray'd in Asia since Soh makes the statement of spinal curvature.

If anyone really wants to know, break out a fillet knife and post a pic for all of us to see.

Beth

06-19-2006, 06:19 PM

I personally have nothing against a high bodied, high finned discus, however, the pictured discus Beth shows from another thread would be culled from anything I would breed. I do not like the smashed "bulldog" face and consider it a defect. JMO, .
Hiyas Mat....

of all of the pics I posted ..... are you talking about all of them ....?? or one in paticular....?? just curious

If anyone really wants to know, break out a fillet knife and post a pic for all of us to see.
;)

Beth

April

06-19-2006, 07:37 PM

BETH :couch or chesterfield in canada..not sofa. lol. Tony might not be able to find the sofa. (eye rolling emoticon)

well..not my desires in discus..but they shouldnt be culled..they are healthy and obviously well enough to grow big and fat and healthy..most people would have them for a collection..not for a breeding program ..other than their developers.
lets just set them free in the amazon. of course..their colours alone might get them in trouble. just think what a wild discus or pirahna would think of a white one..or spotty one..or bright yellow..not to mention..when the dry season comes..they might be lilting in low water. or..their fins out..like a shark.

ShinShin

06-19-2006, 08:37 PM

Beth,

Of all the pics you posted on this thread, if the green discus had a smaller eye, I would probabally keep it, maybe ;) . The PB's I would not keep under any condition because they don't really have any appeal to me (most PB's), Bulldog, Hi-Fin - Hi-Bod, or plain old regular. All the others I would cull. I wouldn't even give them to someone for free. On the link you provided on the very first post of this thread - all those discus would be in the rosebed as well. Most had very nice color, all had very ugly faces.

Mat

Kenny's Discus

06-19-2006, 09:36 PM

Kenny ....
I hope you didn't mind me using this pic. He's a nice Discus ;)

Beth

How did I miss this thread? LOL Beth I was scratching my head there as to how my fish end up appearing in your post?(I thought you have the exact same fish lol)

No seriously it's totally fine to use it Beth, but to me he's not a bulldog; maybe a little high-body but he was just an offspring of a cross from a pair of "regular" shaped parents. But if he appears to be like one I have no objection either. And no he didn't have the dent on its forehead.

Take care ,back to your topic.
Kenny

Kenny's Discus

06-19-2006, 09:49 PM

To add my 2 cents in regards to the form of these discus. I personally like those that have a little hi-body(not too extreme) look...to me they look kind of "elegant", or some would say royal. But those with a compressed face, no. And as everyone has already said, to each his own.

JMO of course.
Kenny

Tony_S

06-19-2006, 10:06 PM

It seems that one of the toughest questions to answer, or GET an answer to, is the question of HOW these discus came to be. This question is second only to IF this discus should be, in my mind....But, If we could answer the 'how's' ....I think the answers to 'IF' it should be, would be more clear to alot of people.
Ive been reading all night....there's alot of mention of "Bulldogs" and "Eggshape"...and alot of speculation....but basically NO solid info on breeding, genetics etc....Even those who 'imply' they have the answers, or 'imply' to know more than others....speak of the types in 'cryptic' tongues. Lots of secrets....few (if any) truths....all speculation so far.

One of the things I DID learn, is what a TRUE ORIGINAL 'Bulldog' should look like, according to one of the few who seem to know...but wont tell the whole story.....JimmyL

From this thread (which is a little difficult to decipher because of post deletions)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=41483&page=3&highlight=bulldog

The Blue tigers is the results of many years of selective breeding from the pure strain to create a super high fin and hi body fish with many different classifications. This one shown by Kumlin is the Triple A fish. The cream fo the crop. You are seeing the diamond ring of Liz Taylor. A Roll's Royce compared to a regular car.

Picture of the fish in topic is on Kumlins website...

http://www.kumlinstropical.com/strains-bt.html

It would be nice to have someone give some definitive answers to the question of 'HOW'....Not that it would change my position on the fish its self....but light on a dark subject is always good.

Tony

Elcid

06-19-2006, 10:27 PM

Looks like they are available in Japan too. I can't understand why ppl want them, I guess maybe not too many ppl want them as they are not as expensive as the spotteds.

http://mishima-aqua.com/discus/index.php?page=2486

chompy

06-19-2006, 11:11 PM

That is disgusting. Only a sick person would buy that!

Squiggy

06-19-2006, 11:20 PM

looks like a cartoon caricature of a discus....at best...:alien:

Kindredspirit

06-20-2006, 12:01 AM

So that is a juvie 'bulldog'? That looks so very sad doesnt it? Like it needs a hug:( ( quiet Tony ) I do not think I could cull that ~ I know you boys cld and prolly shld but .....

I guess we are not going to get someone that actually breeds these fish to come and discuss? Thatz a true bummer ~ I think we all pretty much play well with others yes?

I want to know more ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif

White Worm

06-20-2006, 03:02 AM

Holy Cow! That is one jacked up discus in #65. I agree Kenny, hi fin somewhat is nice but thats it. Dont care for the look of the bulldog.

Tony_S

06-20-2006, 07:09 AM

Kenny's Discus

06-20-2006, 07:54 AM

Hi Tony - I think for the most part we all agree that this extreme look of the bulldog shape are not very welcome...to say the least. But I also think that many of us can appreciate a little "high" form body shape; some might not even be able to accept the "standing egg" form but I think many hobbyists(especially the die-hard fans) like seeing the hi-fin/hi-body discus in their tanks.

I myself love this kind of hi-body, sharp forehead types(no dent)...but of course it's just my preference though.

Kenny

#1

poconogal

06-20-2006, 07:54 AM

Someone takes a beautiful creature like this....

http://www.imgmonkey.com/image/4632-flss01.jpg

And turns it into....this....

http://www.imgmonkey.com/image/5340-Disgusting.jpg

And I'm asked not to pass judgement against the people responsible for both breeding, and purchasing these......discus?

Think again....JUDGEMENT PASSED!

Tony :flame:

Exactly! Animals that are deformed, when in nature, either do not usually survive or are not even born alive, so that should tell us something, too... :(

Connie

Kenny's Discus

06-20-2006, 08:00 AM

#2

Definitely not trying to complicate things here...just want to see if most hobbyists can appreciate these hi-body shapes as opposed to those super extreme bulldogs.(as the one in #65)

Kindredspirit

06-20-2006, 08:03 AM

Whatz that saying? A picture speaks a 1000 words? *** WoW ~

Ya think?:mad:

I want to know WHY people do this? I'm thinking MONEY ~ CONTROL ~ and just because they can ~

And I want to know HOW ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_5_33.gif

korbi_doc

06-20-2006, 08:12 AM

:D :D Kenny, I like the hi-finned shaped discus, but these had normal forefronts, faces & tail ends.....as soon as you compress this fish fore to rear, you have a different pic, & a very different outlook for "deformity"....again similar to some of the pushed-in face dogbreeds we have....I would bet yrs ago some ppl thought those were "deformed creatures also...some still do....

Tony, you do agree those pics show an extreme change with a deformed looking body, fore to rear....& also large eye, leading me to think it is stunted also.....

Awhile back, Jimmy had a thread with some pics of "bulldogs" he had....I loved them & told him so, would have like to have them in my tanks...but, they were not demonstrating the distorted bodies I'm seeing in this thread, not in the face or rear, they were very nice discus, just different, ok in my book......maybe he can put another one on......JMO Dottie ;)

poconogal

06-20-2006, 08:18 AM

So that is a juvie 'bulldog'? That looks so very sad doesnt it? Like it needs a hug:( ( quiet Tony ) I do not think I could cull that ~ I know you boys cld and prolly shld but .....

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif
Boy, Marie, you said it. I feel sorry for the little guy too, it DOES look like it needs a hug. :cry: I couldn't cull either. In fact, I have one little guy, came from an online breeder, not a Simply sponsor, in 70 degree water, with damaged swim bladder and football shape. He was horizontal for awhile and could only spin in a circle, so I named him Spinner. Now he can swim, but tilted at 10 o'clock position. He has adapted ways to catch his food because he also can't seem to see it properly and is a plucky lil guy. I can't cull him either. But as I had posted, in nature, deformities would usually spell the end of the animal, and Spinner would not be alive right now. While our tanks are not nature, I don't feel people should be breeding what nature would cull. Oh, the online breeder refunded my money.

Connie

Elcid

06-20-2006, 08:47 AM

#2

Definitely not trying to complicate things here...just want to see if most hobbyists can appreciate these hi-body shapes as opposed to those super extreme bulldogs.(as the one in #65)

Hey Kenny:

Although your fish look great and healthy I wonder if a true Bulldog lover would love those fish. Maybe he or she is looking for something like the one on this pic. I don't know how they create these but I've heard that the eggs are treated with some sort of chemical after fertilization to create these deformaties. I don't like it one bit! I think most are in agreement that we like fish that are big round and colorful with cherry red eyes? I'm beginning to feel that I don't even like Albinos, why should I like an Albino snakeskin or an Albino Melon, two beautiful fish with their color removed?

http://mishima-aqua.com/discus/index.php?page=2486

take care,
Sandeep

lhforbes12

06-20-2006, 09:00 AM

Someone takes a beautiful creature like this....

http://www.imgmonkey.com/image/4632-flss01.jpg

And turns it into....this....

http://www.imgmonkey.com/image/5340-Disgusting.jpg

And I'm asked not to pass judgement against the people responsible for both breeding, and purchasing these......discus?

Think again....JUDGEMENT PASSED!

Tony :flame:

Tony,
How did you get my Ocean Green? I want it back! You have my address. <grin>

Beautiful fish.

Kenny's Discus

06-20-2006, 09:01 AM

Hey Kenny:

Although your fish look great and healthy I wonder if a true Bulldog lover would love those fish. Maybe he or she is looking for something like the one on this pic. I don't know how they create these but I've heard that the eggs are treated with some sort of chemical after fertilization to create these deformaties. I don't like it one bit!

take care,
Sandeep

Hi Sandeep - maybe you're right about true bulldog lovers don't like the normal hi-body discus since they're not "bulldogged' enough.(is that a word?) They are not my types either and if it takes treating the eggs with chemicals for its creation I'm against it as well. Doesn't sound very humane to me...

Hi Dottie - I hear you, I love hi-fin discus too...and I don't have an appreciation for the compressed kind also. I was told by others who have raised them b4 that many(not all) of them don't grow much...

Take care,
Kenny

lhforbes12

06-20-2006, 09:03 AM

Kenny's Discus

06-20-2006, 09:09 AM

Hi Larry - you did receive my deposit for those fish right?

btw they are VRs(Violet Reflections) not RTs though.

Thanks,
Kenny

Condor

06-20-2006, 09:09 AM

lhforbes12

06-20-2006, 09:10 AM

Hi Larry - you did receive my deposit for those fish right?

btw they are VRs(Violet Reflections) not RTs though.

Thanks,
Kenny

Ahhhhh
I like them very much, VR's, OK

Kenny's Discus

06-20-2006, 09:40 AM

Not to go off-topic but thank you Adrain & Larry.

Kenny

Squiggy

06-20-2006, 11:34 AM

Bulldogs?

I love 'em!

In fact...I think Firestone, Goodyear, and all the others should introduce some "Bulldog" tires for automobiles....It would certainly make the drive more interesting...:crazy:

Kindredspirit

06-20-2006, 01:09 PM

But Jimmy ~ Do YOU like the squashed in face look? Is that where the term 'bulldog' came in? I think that is the main concern here unless I am wrong ~ Is HOW they get that face and is it ethical and on and on and on ~

I just want to know what You think ~ As I have heard much about you in that you are very wise and know much ~ without thinking you are all that ~

You said that the main characteristic of the bd is the high fin ~ I thought the main characteristic was the FACE? No? Yes? lol!

Its good to see you Jimmy ~ why dontcha stay awhile? I know I cld learn a lot from what you know ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_5_33.gif

korbi_doc

06-20-2006, 01:19 PM

I was asked to paticipate in this thread. A same thosand dollars question had been asked over 25 years ago and there is nothing new under the sun. Stalemate!!!!Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has their own unique taste and liking. I hope everyone respect each others without resulting name calling and someone leaving the forum for some stupid reason like the old days.

"All I have to say is you cannot get a bulldog from an regular discus but you can get a regular champion high fin high body from a bulldog." Deform or not deform is up to the discretion of the owners.

In fact most of the offsprings from a bulldog are regular hi fin hi body regular discus you see everyday in the show. The main characteristic of a bulldog is the 5 bars that they have in their body. The whole controversy is the name the breeder is using. Change a name the fish become a champion that every body wants in their tank. The same turn into a cull if the name bulldog is used. Most of the best of show came from the bulldog parents. How many of you participate in this thread actually owns a bulldog????? What is bulldog anyway???? Stop using the word and everybody will be happy.
Jimmy

:D LOL!!!! GREAT POST JIMMY!!! So much truth in what you say!!! ;)

Dissident

06-20-2006, 05:58 PM

Thanks for stopping by JimmyL and clearing some of the waters for us. I was hopeing to hear from someone with some extensive expereince regarding the high-body/fin strains and their applications when it comes to breeding.

So IF I understand this right the 'bulldog'/high-body strain are used in produceing (parenting) larger full-bodied (round) show-quality fish?

And the strain is a natural occourance, with no physical/gene/hormone/etc manipulation?

Are these as hardy and have a similiar lifespan as any other 'traditional' discus?

terps

06-21-2006, 09:17 AM

The bulldogs are considered to be deformed discus and are disqualified for judging if they are entered at the discus show in Duisburg Germany.

Kindredspirit

06-21-2006, 05:44 PM

Really? Anyone know about the ACA ?

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_134.gif

Dissident

06-21-2006, 06:27 PM

Really? Anyone know about the ACA ?

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_134.gif

According to JimmyL's post:

In fact most of the offsprings from a bulldog are regular hi fin hi body regular discus you see everyday in the show. The main characteristic of a bulldog is the 5 bars that they have in their body. The whole controversy is the name the breeder is using. Change a name the fish become a champion that every body wants in their tank. The same turn into a cull if the name bulldog is used. Most of the best of show came from the bulldog parents.

By that one would have to say that ACA does not consider 'bulldog' to be a show grade fish. Although they are used in breeding programs to produce show-quality fish.

Tony_S

06-21-2006, 06:41 PM

http://www.aca2006.com/show/show_rules.htm

The Show Committee reserves the right to disqualify fish based on deformities, illness, poor condition, health or death. Hybrids are not permitted. Albinos are permitted.

According to this....the 'bulldog' would be disqualified at the ACA also. As for high body, high fin...No Idea where they would draw the 'deformed' line there? It may be up the judges themselves???

Tony

Dissident

06-21-2006, 07:12 PM

http://www.aca2006.com/show/show_rules.htm

According to this....the 'bulldog' would be disqualified at the ACA also. As for high body, high fin...No Idea where they would draw the 'deformed' line there? It may be up the judges themselves???

Tony

Neither High-Fin <or> High-Body are missing any virtbri, so would not be considered deformed. How they are judged along with 'standard' discus would be intersting to know.

Is it possible to have a champion High-Fin <or> High-Body discus?

Tony_S

06-21-2006, 07:30 PM

Neither High-Fin <or> High-Body are missing any virtbri, so would not be considered deformed.

According to JimmyL, the bulldogs arent missing any vertibra either.....So, your saying they wouldnt be classified as deformed either?

I truthfully have no idea as to the how's and why's of qualification, but I would doubt very much if it has anything to do with a vertibra count....that seems a little technical for on site qualification.

Tony

Kindredspirit

06-21-2006, 09:27 PM

We need Carol ~ :)

Marie ~:)

Condor

06-22-2006, 12:06 AM

http://www.aca2006.com/show/show_rules.htm

Quote:
The Show Committee reserves the right to disqualify fish based on deformities, illness, poor condition, health or death. Hybrids are not permitted. Albinos are permitted.

According to this....the 'bulldog' would be disqualified at the ACA also. As for high body, high fin...No Idea where they would draw the 'deformed' line there? It may be up the judges themselves???

Tony

Question: Aren't most all Discus hybrids? Especially domestics?

Imperialdiscus

06-22-2006, 01:09 AM

Wow, what a huge thread.

Personally I don't like this "egg" discus, I wouldn't own one, I sure wouldn't sell one. To each their own though, apparently some people do like them.

I thought that the super high body discus that looked like marine batfish looked pretty messed up. I didn't think we could do worse than that. I was wrong.

However on the subject of physical mutations, I don't mind the minor high body types. My original Blue Diamonds from Lo Wing Yat back in 1989 or 1990 were high body types.

On some fish I definitely perfer the traditional round body style, but on certain color variations, the high bodies look so much better. In my opinion of course.

Elcid

06-22-2006, 09:44 AM

Hi Jimmy:

There are not many bulldog pics available. Can you please post pics of hobbiest grade bulldogs that you may have at various sizes? I don't mean the cream of the crop, I mean the ones we are likely to get from importers!

thanks,
Sandeep

Ryan

06-22-2006, 11:47 AM

Question: Aren't most all Discus hybrids? Especially domestics?

Those rules are for the ACA shows in general I think, and not specific to discus. I'm assuming by hybrids they mean things like blood parrots, that are crosses between two different species. I don't think they mean hybrids as in crossing two different color types, which is common in domestic discus.

Ryan

Moon

06-22-2006, 12:16 PM

Is not crossing S.Aquifasciata with S Heraldi or S Axelrodi hybredisation?

Ryan

06-22-2006, 12:19 PM

Imperialdiscus

06-22-2006, 01:24 PM

Yes, but then you get into the argument of, are there really that many species of discus? There's still the train of thought that you only have one or two species, with variations based on region. So I guess they could argue that point until they were blue in the face.

I have no doubt that debate will continue forever.

However on the subject of them all being variations of the same fish.........

IF true, it would be fairly unique to discus to be so diverse when other species of fish can be spread over very large ranges of habitat and have very few differences in appearance beyond a normal variation due to isolation groups and their interbreeding.

Imperialdiscus

06-22-2006, 02:43 PM

I'm asking for trouble if I post new pictures of my Bulldogs. It will be ridicule and shred into pieces.

I don't think you are asking for trouble, if YOU like them, that's what counts.

I'm not going to shred them to pieces, but honestly I hate it. I wouldn't own them myself . I can see where a lot of purists would have an issue with the Bulldog.

I have no doubt that there are people who feel equally as strongly about the "normal" high body type discus, which I happen to like at least in Blue Diamonds, Super Brilliants and Cobalts.

rayw

06-22-2006, 02:50 PM

This is another old one sold to Japan from the same father. The best of show.... Missing back bone or not. You can tell me that....These were taken at least 5 years ago The F2 and the F7 is even worse that no one can stand looking at them....???
Jimmy

I don't care what others say, I would love to have that one in my tank..

Greg Richardson

06-22-2006, 03:09 PM

I'm asking for trouble if I post new pictures of my Bulldogs.

I for one would love to see any pictures you have of them.
Please post them.

As for others ripping you to sheds as you put it I have one thing to say to them.

Remember Archie Bunker and the noise and face he'd make when he didn't like what you said?

Well to all those that don't want to see pictures there ya go!

Post them Jimmy!

Imperialdiscus

06-22-2006, 03:14 PM

You have high standard. I respect that. Even the best of show can't please you. I rest my case and no more further pic. or discussion from me. I promise!!!!

I wouldn't go that far. Not everyone is going to like the same thing, and it would be a shame not to share, just because some people don't like it. Especially if it is a show winner.

And I certainly hope you didn't take me wrong in my replies.

Beth

06-22-2006, 04:22 PM

The main characteristic of a bulldog is the shape and chesty 5 barred body.

Jimmy......... You're my Hero :kiss:

Can you tell me where that first 5 bar cobalt came from and what type of fry were produced by him % wise.... what type of female was used to get the bulldogs??

What about their diet, was there a lack of ascorbic acid involved ??

Is there a certain gene that causes the shapes we're seeing?? I was looking at some pics of wilds that lead me to believe that it's a gene.... These pics or from Oliver Lucanus's site.........
http://www.belowwater.com/fish/wild-discus/index.html

Beth

06-22-2006, 04:23 PM

and another.......

There's quite a bit of variation in shapes in the wild ........ Not all are symmetrical.....

TIA Jimmy......
Beth

Carol_Roberts

06-22-2006, 04:48 PM

Bulldogs can be shown in NADA or ACA shows. Deformity means short gill plates, missing tail or fins, missing eye . . . gross deformities. NADA's judging form does give more points for a round forehead/face so those with a dish face would lose points. Discus are also graded on overall appearance and roundness. Judging is subjective. Personal preference does come into play whether you are judging Great Danes or discus.

Just so you know, most of the cichlid judges at ACA do not keep discus and think pigeon bloods or any non-wild type discus are hybrid attrocities that have no place in the show.

Beth

06-22-2006, 05:16 PM

I think most are in agreement that we like fish that are big round and colorful with cherry red eyes?
I'll agree that most will tell you that's what they'd prefer.... I'm sure they're are quite a few people out there that wouldn't say they like those bulldogs.... with the fear of being ridiculed........ :inquisitive:

I'm beginning to feel that I don't even like Albinos, why should I like an Albino snakeskin or an Albino Melon, two beautiful fish with their color removed?
The way I see it........ if we didn't have bulldogs........ we probably wouldn't have alot of the higher bodied and higher finned Discus that are on the market today. ( If infact it's a genetic trait )

Same goes for inbreeding and or cross breeding for that matter.... we probably wouldn't have as many colour variations or barless Discus in our tanks today.

If no one experiments with Discus we'd all have just plain old wilds in our tanks....... :crazy:

I also know that there's got to be a line drawn somewhere........ I'm thinking (can ya smell the wires burning) the line should be drawn when the health of the fish is at risk...

Don't hate the player..... Hate the game

Beth

kjmillerfw

06-22-2006, 05:51 PM

About this same time last year, I remember there being some friendly debate between Jeff and myself about Blue Knights having the "hump" on their forehead, and whether it was a deformity or not.

I feel like it's more of a characteristic than a deformity. Just like different human/ethnic groups have different features or characteristics, why can't fish? We don't call people of Jewish ancestory deformed just because they typically have a large nose. My family tree is made up of mostly blonde or redheads and blue eyes and most of the men in my family are about 6' tall with a 32" inseam...in other words tall, long trunk and short legs. None of them will make good models, but they are far from being deformed.

I'd venture to say that everything on this earth (human or non-human) has evolved and in that process changes have emerged which have carried on to future generations. So why not Discus?

Now maybe these breeders are pushing out characteristics that are not conducive to a sound skeletal structure, but from the pictures I'm seeing posted by Jimmy and others, they look quite healthy to me.

While at ACA last year, Jeff, Ryan and I were still discussing this subject and we asked Dick Au his thoughts on how a fish like that would do in show. He basically verified what Carol just said, and that was, it depends on the shape/angle of the forehead and it possibly could count off a few points, but he felt like it was fairly minor if the fish had good shape, balance, color, etc. That doesn't sound like a deformity to me...maybe an undesirable trait, but not deformity.

"Beauty is in the eye of the be-holder...or is it beer-holder?" :D

kjmillerfw

06-22-2006, 05:55 PM

Let me add that the thread about the BK's wasn't just about the "hump"...that's how it started. Then it went the same direction this one to some extent. The discussion went on to spinal and skeletal deformities, etc.

Greg Richardson

06-22-2006, 06:33 PM

Beth...........

The way I see it........ if we didn't have bulldogs........ we probably wouldn't have alot of the higher bodied and higher finned Discus that are on the market today. ( If infact it's a genetic trait )

Same goes for inbreeding and or cross breeding for that matter.... we probably wouldn't have as many colour variations or barless Discus in our tanks today.

If no one experiments with Discus we'd all have just plain old wilds in our tanks.......

I also know that there's got to be a line drawn somewhere........ I'm thinking (can ya smell the wires burning) the line should be drawn when the health of the fish is at risk...

So good to read common sense. The bold part also I agree with 110%!

Ryan

06-22-2006, 11:42 PM

I'm still waiting on actual answers regarding the fish themselves. Do we know for fact that they aren't different, structurally? In one post, JimmyL says they aren't missing any vertebrae, but in another he says that the fish is a show winner, whether it's got a short spine or not. What does that mean?

Some of the bulldogs don't seem extreme, but the ones with the really sharply indented faces and highly compressed bodies are so far removed from other discus, their own siblings even. I could see where this might be a natural occurance, but I still wish someone would answer the question as to whether or not it's because of a bent spine or a short spine or whatever.

I've had angels with curved spines, their head kind of crooks to the side. These are sometimes naturally occuring in a spawn, but I cull for them.

I don't have a problem with people liking bulldogs, but I feel like all the people with experience in breeding bulldogs are being vague about what actually makes them different.

Ryan

ShinShin

06-23-2006, 01:36 AM

Carol,

Who in NADA decided the "list" of deforities? Are you implying that a discus with a smahed in face would not be considered a deformity? It certainly would be considered one in my book.

High bodied fish have been around longer than bulldogs in my memory, and I don't believe bulldogs are "the" precursor to the high bodied strains that have been around all this time. I may be wrong, however. Did Gan's high bodied discus come from the bulldog? I personally never heard this to be the case.

Mat

Elcid

06-23-2006, 07:01 AM

Hi Jimmy:

Thanks for taking the risk to post some pics. I was looking at the Aquarama Grand Champion pic from last year and after reading your post could imagine a bulldog in it's past although I have no idea if it might be true.

I know after reading many old posts that ppl in the know are fearful of posting for fear of retribution. Oh well, it's a shame! I guess this hobby does get personal can't help it, we love our fish so much they are like part of our being.

But you can't escape so easily after posting on this crazy thread? :D Immediate questions that come to my mind is that if it's not a 5 bar then it isn't a bulldog? Can someone fake me and sell me a 9 bar high body fish for $$$ saying it has bulldog gene and likely to be champion? Ugh, I've had enough of that! Will a pair of bulldogs produce atleast a few 5 bar bulldog babies without my having to go through a learning curve that no one is willing to teach? and are they really so agressive that I have to keep them in their own separate tank? How can I know what a 3 month old bulldog is supposed to look like when there aren't any pics except those in the japanese sites? Those fish I'm sure I don't want but yours, hmm, maybe I could stand to have a dozen? But then again, are they going to cost me $500 a piece? No I can't afford that thanks! :p And, if I buy ones for $100 a piece will I have to struggle with them for a year only to pass them to another unfortunate hobbiest or the pet shop? What's a $30 hobbiest grade bulldog look like and how will it turn out? Is it really worth owning vs. a RT that will grow to beautiful red and blue fish of 6-7" and have fairly will know characteristics? Maybe with the current info on bulldogs it should be restricted to breeders who want to win a show?

hmm, Sorry Jimmy too many questions!

take care,
Sandeep

terps

06-23-2006, 08:46 AM

The photos of bulldogs that appear on Lucky Tropical's website are IMO culls. They should have been destroyed, not breed.

http://www.luckytropical.com/images/discuss/Bulldog%20Solid%20Cobalt1.jpg

http://www.luckytropical.com/english/discuss-gal.asp?cat=Solid&pgno=1&lang=en

If they had bolts coming out of their gills, you could call them Frankenstein discus. :D

Elcid

06-23-2006, 09:56 AM

Quoted from "Discus The Naked Truth" by Andrew Soh:

Page 17:

Super High Body Form

Some breeders call this 'Bat discus' because its shape resembles that of the seawater bat. This strain usually looks like it has a very short spine. This is not the case. In fact, it is due to the bending of the spine, Lordosis. Those critically bent fry will become belly gliders while those that bent just to a point where they can still swim normally become the bat discus....

This strain does not breed true as it is a non-genetic trait. Through my observation, there are two possible reasons. One reason is that of weak fetus development. The other possible reason, which I am more convinced, is mycobacterium infection during the stage two of fetus development leading to spinal tuberculosis. Stage two is the period between hatching and free swim. This stage is most vulnerable to infestation by pathogens because the fry are likely 'sitting ducks' and cannot swim away. Spinal tuberculosis could affect discus at any age but lordosis or scoliosis (bending sideway) tends to affect younger discus, probably because the soft spinal bone is not hardent yet.

Page 21:

When I was in Hong Kong that year, I was amused as well as envious to find numerous displays of Super high-body discus. I wanted to buy but the calling price was not within my means. Finally, I had to settle for the normal ones. I came back with regrets. I kept telling myself I should have taken the risk to buy at least one piece for crossing even though the price was ridiculous. Anyway, all my new arrivals were quarantined for about 3 weeks. Finding it safe after the quarantine period, I started handling them and making water changes at random. There seem to be no problem. Two months later, to my surprise and joy, from a pair of my pure breed turquoise, I got 5 pieces of Super high body discus from pure-breed elongated discus I wondered? I was extremely confused. Suddenly, around that same period, spawns stared to have problems. Two weeks old fry started to fall sick, got very thin and mortality was high. The epidemic was across the board. At the same time, more pairs were producing super high body discus in my shop for no apparent reason! Unfortunately, many were deformed. Feeling something was amiss and suspecting mycobacterium to be the culprit, I used the first pair of turquoise for experiment. I brought the pair back to my home, treated the pair with a range of antibiotics in combination and in high dose fo a period of one month (fortunately, they did not get sterile). Treatment was also done during the 2 stages of fetus development (Treatment started one to two hours after the eggs were laid). The whole treatment lasted for 5 days. This small experiment really enriched my understanding. Within the next few months, not a single Super high body fry were found in all the four spawns! Therefore, it proved that the problem was due to bacteria infection. Also, around the same period many breeders all over Singapore and Malaysia were producing Super High Body Bat discus.

Note: It can come from any discus strain, any type of forehead or body form. It is non-genetic and cannot breed true (To some breeders, it seems to 'breed true" because the pathogen is still having strong foothold in the farm setup). You will notice that most of the disucs in a hatchery will become super high body regardless of strain. If it starts from the Cobalt, even the Snakeskin will follow suit.

Thankyou Andrew, my "Naked" friend :)

take care,
Sandeep

Ryan

06-23-2006, 10:06 AM

Thank you, Sandeep. That helped to answer a lot of questions. I really need to get Andrew's book :)

Ryan

kaceyo

06-23-2006, 05:27 PM

It seems to me this exerpt from Andrews book raises more questions than it answeres. First, everything said in it could be true and still have no bearing on the Bulldog issue. It only names one possible reason for the highbody fish he got randomly in his hatchery. It doesn't discount the probabiliy that there are ways to breed for high/deep body fish geneticly and that bulldogs is one of them. Second, the discus "bat" that resembles a saltwater batfish is not a Bulldog, but an entirely different fish with a high body along with the elongated fins that give it it's name. All this shows is one persons experience along with his assumptions about the hows and whys. Please don't take this as any kind of judgment on my part of Andrew or his work. It's nothing of the sort. I'm just questioning whether it applies to this thread or Bulldogs in particuler.

Kacey

Elcid

06-23-2006, 05:59 PM

Hi Kacey:

On page 22 Andrew has a photograph of the discus that he produced as stated in the text above. It looks to me as having 5 bars and very high body and not the long fins as you suggest. According to JimmyL's definition: a bulldog is a very high body 5 bar discus. I'm sure there must be other definitions though :) I don't want to have to type the whole chapter (buy the book) but ther is some sections on high body form that is achieved through breeding so no one is saying that you can't achieve high body discus through selective breeding. It's just Andrew's take on how the super high body form, be it bat or bulldog, came into existance in his hatchery and speculation on how others might have also achieved it. At least it will get Jimmy to post some more pics :) Sorry Jimmy, we love you U know that :)

take care,
Sandeep

Kindredspirit

06-23-2006, 06:07 PM

Injected? In - jected? At what age?

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

Kindredspirit

06-23-2006, 06:12 PM

I will not show you the crown jewell. Just the rejects of that categories. You can tell me if they are deform or not.
The first one is my future breeder.
Jimmy

Why not the 'crown jewell' Jimmy? Might as well put it all out there dontcha think? I do not think they are deformed per se' ~ I will leave that to the 'experts' here ~

But they just do not look 'right' IMO ....for the lack of a better word ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

Kenny's Discus

06-23-2006, 06:15 PM

Hi Jimmy - I happened to take some random photos of these less extreme ones earlier today too...what a coincidence lol!

I know some ppl like them and others don't. I totally respect all opinions as I understand everyone has his/her own preference.

Take care,
Kenny

Kenny's Discus

06-23-2006, 06:15 PM

Kenny's Discus

06-23-2006, 06:16 PM

#3 (the one in the middle is not a bulldog)

Kenny's Discus

06-23-2006, 06:17 PM

Kenny's Discus

06-23-2006, 06:20 PM

#5 last 1 for now.

Elcid

06-23-2006, 06:42 PM

Wow, pics from both Jimmy and Kenny! :) Hey Kenny, just how many discus do you have? ::p

Kenny's Discus

06-23-2006, 07:11 PM

Wow, pics from both Jimmy and Kenny! :) Hey Kenny, just how many discus do you have? ::p

Hi Sandeep - just a few lol...back to this topic.

:-)

Kenny

Kindredspirit

06-23-2006, 07:22 PM

Hey Kenny, just how many discus do you have? ::p

Enough to SHARE;)

Greg Richardson

06-23-2006, 07:27 PM

Jimmy #131 and 132 I'd have no problem having in my tank.
Especially the golden.

kaceyo

06-23-2006, 08:16 PM

Hey Sandeep,
I haven't seen the pic in Andrews book. Unfortunetly I don't own it. I'll take your word that it's a 5 bar bulldog. With that said, he admits himself that it's speculation on his part based only on what happened in his hatchery. It doesn't make sense to me that what happened in is hatchery was random among all strains affected, while the breeding programs of people like Wayne Ng with his Blue Knights and JimmyL produce fish with bulldog traits thru breeding for type. You can see the bulldog influence in many strains to lesser or greater degrees. To me this implies it's a genetic trait rather than random. It's only resently that we've been seeing the BD spotteds and reds etc while before we only saw cobalt or Blue Diamond type Bulldogs. This also suggests it's not random, otherwise we would have seen bulldogs from every strain right from the start. Just introduce the bacteria and instant bulldogs.

Kacey

Elcid

06-23-2006, 08:32 PM

Hey Kacey:

I don't really like Andrew's hypothesis and certainly I'm not one for playing God with genetic engineering, gene manupulation, chemically or bacterically altering them at the larvae stage.

I wish the bulldog is truely a development through standard breeding practices and will be a stable form like other strains so that they can be enjoyed by those who like them. I hope Jimmy will prove it to us. So far I'm really not convinced either way!

HTH,
Sandeep

kaceyo

06-23-2006, 10:38 PM

Sandeep,
I've never heard anything that would lead me to believe they don't occur naturally. I think there just aren't many people who know the practical side of breeding and raising them so the gaps are filled with questions, speculation and assumptions. I would like to learn more about them too but there's just no real source of info. Jimmy is the only one I know of who has even tried to shed any light and as good as his intentions are he's just one person with one point of view. A point of view I agree with but not the whole picture.

Kacey

lhforbes12

06-23-2006, 10:58 PM

Jimmy,
I'm not fond of uni-color or red discus but even to me that fish is gorgeous!

Larry

chompy

06-23-2006, 11:08 PM

hhhhhmmm, your starting to convert me Jimmy. I'd like to see some in person ;)

korbi_doc

06-24-2006, 12:38 PM

:D Wow Jimmy, I've always loved your fish, those pics #130, 131,132, & esp #149 just make me salivate for more.....I'll be resettled soon, would love to have some, pls keep me in mind, I just have to have'm.....& I don't give a darn what the name is either, lol, Dottie ;) ;)

terps

06-24-2006, 01:37 PM

I always thought it was weird that some people would buy brand new blue jeans that are already faded with holes in them(actually paying more than regular blue jeans). I still don't know why anybody would pay good money for a discus that has a defective shape. Why buy a fish that is more than likely genetically deformed? IMO, the discus with the crooked spines or missing vertebra and terrible shapes should be culled, not hyped and sold as something that's special.

ShinShin

06-24-2006, 06:04 PM

Beth

06-24-2006, 06:06 PM

Dissident

06-24-2006, 07:02 PM

Well, with all this blubbering over these butt ugly discus I am looking at presently, as long as Tony S, terps, myself, and a couple of others remain in discus, there will be a few round discus alive and well. Gee, maybe in 10-12 years, they'll be worth alot of money. ;)

Mat

Wow I would figure we would geta more insightful or constructive comment from someone representing 'Discusuniversity'... and completely missing the main points that have been made in this thread.

I figured all the unconstructive comments were already voiced and we could learn something finally but there always will be a few ppl who feel their opinion is more valid than others and take what was turning into an interesting insight on breeding and the history of high-fin and high-body strains and attempting to turn it into a thread on how to make discus sushi.

ShinShin

06-24-2006, 08:10 PM

D,

Note the smiley face and the wink, please. It was mostly said tongue in cheek. However, now that you mention it, my opinion (as is Tony's and terps) is as valid as those trying to give credibility to the bulldog type discus. High bodied discus have been around longer than any bulldog named discus as far as I can remember. It has been known that these high bodied discus have spinal malforities. Now, we see bulldogs with facial deforities as well, and a NADA spokesperson saying they are a legimate strain by stating they may be entered in a NADA or ACA sponsored show because they do not have the "deformities" she listed. I asked a question regarding the statement made, and as yet have had a reply. As a NADA member, I haven't seen the list of deformities which would be unacceptable as well as acceptable for show entry.

As far as any interest in any discussion about breeding bulldogs, I have none. I would not feed one long enough to reach breeding age. But, hey, if you do, get to it. Your opinion holds as much for you as mine does for me. Jimmy L has been talking and showing pictures of bulldogs and their offspring for years on Simply. Its nothing new here. He has just carried the subject a little deeper on this thread.

Mat

Dissident

06-24-2006, 08:27 PM

D,

However, now that you mention it, my opinion (as is Tony's and terps) is as valid as those trying to give credibility to the bulldog type discus. High bodied discus have been around longer than any bulldog named discus as far as I can remember. It has been known that these high bodied discus have spinal malforities. Now, we see bulldogs with facial deforities as well, and a NADA spokesperson saying they are a legimate strain by stating they may be entered in a NADA or ACA sponsored show because they do not have the "deformities" she listed. I asked a question regarding the statement made, and as yet have had a reply. As a NADA member, I haven't seen the list of deformities which would be unacceptable as well as acceptable for show entry.

Mat

Now that moves to topic along the lines that most of us are hoping for ;)
I myself am very curious in the strains especially the origins and usage in breeding programs to produce larger bodied fish. Regarding NADA/ACA guidelines that’s another matter, but having an open-minded and civil conversation regarding it is better than stepping on people's thoughts with 'tongue-in-cheek' sarcasm while ignoring the 'big picture' as I see it;
The ‘Bulldog’ (or whatever you chose to call it) my be (but probably is not) a show quality fish but serves a viable and unique purpose in many breeding programs.
I may not, and you may not, find them as aesthetically pleasing as the offspring they produce but is that a rational reason to dismiss them all together?

Greg Richardson

06-24-2006, 08:57 PM

Jimmy. Thanks for posting pictures and your thoughts on them.
I like to hear all sides of the coin. Front, back, sides, they all good.

If anyone else has pictures I'd love to see them also!

ShinShin

06-24-2006, 09:00 PM

Sarcasm? Not really sarcasm. My personal opinion is that it is unethical to purposely breed discus with malformities to produce a discus that looks different with the hopes of making money or a name for one's self. That's all I see this as being.

Mat

Timbo

06-25-2006, 07:33 AM

one man's malformatie is another man's prize

to each his own

ShinShin

06-25-2006, 11:42 AM

A related topic (breeding malformities to produce a different discus) was brought up on a discus forum about 6 years ago when the Half Moon Discus, Arrowhead Discus, and the Butterfly Discus (when it was thought the Butterfly was "bred" tailess) were making the scene. The forum is a European forum. European aquarists take the aquarium hobby more seriously, in general, than Americans, and were in fact laughing behind the American's backs about such things as our colored gravel, plastic plants, "No Fishing" signs planted in the rainbow gravels, and all the plastic and glass castle ornaments, along with the bubbling skin divers.

Anyway, there are some very serious discus people on that forum (or at least were as I haven't been there in awhile) with huge amounts of knowledge who held strong opinions on the haphazard breeding practices taking place mostly in North America and Asia. The most ridiculed American posts were "What will I get if I cross XX with YY"? Americans were being laughed at for their general lack of knowledge and understanding of discus husbandry and breeding.

Asians on the other hand were not being ridiculed for lack of knowledge, rather, for the misuse of the knowledge that they had. Many people, myself included, think that such fish as the parrotfish and baloon mollies are freaks that should just be left to fade out of the hobby. The German and Dutch breeders accused the Asian breeders of taking the discus the way of the goldfish, breeding for deforamaties to produce discus that will no longer look like a discus, like some of the abominations seen in the goldfish hobby. I also agree with this.

Hats off to the Germans for not allowing Bulldogs in their show. NADA's stance is quite disturbing to me.Then, what about the Arrowhead? Will this discus be jugded differently because it is "supposed" to be "not round"? (actually, I don't even know if the Arrowhead ever took off, but it will serve as an example) or will a seperate class be created? And, as far as the ACA sponsored shows, I am not sure about them. I haven't heard from an ACA spokesperson on this topic, just NADA.

Mat

Greg Richardson

06-25-2006, 06:22 PM

The most ridiculed American posts were "What will I get if I cross XX with YY"? Americans were being laughed at for their general lack of knowledge and understanding of discus husbandry and breeding.

The arrogance of the ones laughing is the REAL joke!

How do people learn without asking questions?

People to afraid to ask because of those type of people in the world remain without knowledge because of the mindset of others.

Those same people laughing learned through books or their own experiences.

This has nothing to do with you Matt.

It has everything though to do with people who want the hobby to grow but don't share their knowledge or when they do share they do it in such a way they are what is known as donkeys on the farm to put it nicely.

dandestroy

06-26-2006, 09:41 AM

Have been following this tread for a while...

Agree totaly with Jimmy on that last comment exept the Tom cruise part.

I think Tom is defective ;)

korbi_doc

06-26-2006, 11:09 AM

Hats off to the Germans for not allowing Bulldogs in their show. NADA's stance is quite disturbing to me.Then, what about the Arrowhead? Will this discus be jugded differently because it is "supposed" to be "not round"? (actually, I don't even know if the Arrowhead ever took off, but it will serve as an example) or will a seperate class be created? And, as far as the ACA sponsored shows, I am not sure about them. I haven't heard from an ACA spokesperson on this topic, just NADA.

Mat

Hey Mat, this is a "show" for fish...why would anyone put a distorted shaped fish in a class if one of the main point-carrying parameters for judging is "ROUNDNESS"??? Shape is very important to the judges, as well as condition, fins, tail, color, size etc...all of these things carry a portion of the final tally to determine the winning fish.....I can put an ugly oversized crooked legged doberman pinscher in a class A show, but there is no way it'll do anything...how about a mashed in faced doberman? Not that I've ever seen one, but it couldn't win any points either...so a distorted egg-shaped, pug-faced ugly discus hasn't got a chance, except to make ppls faces contort!! One would hope ppl would quickly learn that there are "standards" to judge animals by if you wish to attain trophies...One of NADA's main goals is to try to set standards by which we breed, raise & finally judge our beautiful fish................JMO Dottie ;)

Kindredspirit

06-26-2006, 11:29 AM

Hey Mat, this is a "show" for fish...why would anyone put a distorted shaped fish in a class if one of the main point-carrying parameters for judging is "ROUNDNESS"??? Shape is very important to the judges, as well as condition, fins, tail, color, size etc...all of these things carry a portion of the final tally to determine the winning fish.....I can put an ugly oversized crooked legged doberman pinscher in a class A show, but there is no way it'll do anything...how about a mashed in faced doberman? Not that I've ever seen one, but it couldn't win any points either...so a distorted egg-shaped, pug-faced ugly discus hasn't got a chance, except to make ppls faces contort!! One would hope ppl would quickly learn that there are "standards" to judge animals by if you wish to attain trophies...One of NADA's main goals is to try to set standards by which we breed, raise & finally judge our beautiful fish................JMO Dottie ;)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_55.gif Well said Dottie~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

Elcid

06-26-2006, 11:35 AM

Hi Jimmy:

You keep saying this is your last post but it seems at the moment you are the only one that has direct experience with breeding to clear up some of the myths about bulldog discus. Actually, the two main concerns for me about these 5 bar discus is:

(1) Health and Wellness as compared to standard strains?
(2) Is there a large percentage of spawn from "bulldog" parents that will be too weak and have poor growth/health?

It seems to me that your answer to these two questions would clear the minds of many to buy these fish. Who cares what some German judge wants? If I want this fish and I am convinced that they do not carry some form of disease, that I can take care of it like any other discus and that their spawn will not be unusually weak then it's just a question of getting quality "bulldogs" and that's another thread I suppose :)

take care,
Sandeep

CliffsDiscus

06-26-2006, 04:45 PM

I'm not sure if the Bulldogs Discus is the same as the Gan's high back Discus because I have been breeding these Discus for the last 16 years. I use
this high body Discus as a cross when breeding other types of Discus just
to round out their shape. After breeding the standard shape of Discus for
several generations sometimes their conformation starts to develope a oval shape
rather that the round shape as we all like them to be. These high back
Discus were rather larger than the normal Discus too, all had 8 bars, so with
their larger size crossing with the small will usually produce larger and faster
growth. I have cross these Discus with Wattley original turquoise, Schmidt
Focke, Wayne Ng's Green Diamond, Herman Chan Discus and now currently crossing them
with the Singapore Fireworks(LSS).
The down side of these crosses are larger scales, saddle nose, larger eyes
than current standards, and larger culling process. My current Gan Discus
now looks very similar to Wayne Ng's Blue Knight in shape and size.

Cliff

kaceyo

06-26-2006, 07:45 PM

Hey Cliff,
Is the Gan high back a particuler strain (like turq or cobalt) or do you mean Gans high back types in general? I'd love to see some pics of the Wayne BK like fish you're breeding. I'd also like to see some of your adult fireworks crosses.
Did you ever get that SE female (I think) to spawn with your own lines?
Thanks,

Kacey

ShinShin

06-27-2006, 01:22 AM

Dottie,

While I agree with the point you made, my problem lies with Carol's statement that bulldogs can be shown in a NADA or ACA show because it doesn't have one of the deformities she listed as being unacceptable. My problem is this: Says who? As a member of NADA, I have no recollection of this being discussed. Perhaps it was discussed prior to my joining, in which case, I'd like to see the guidelines for entry and judging. Also, no ACA spokesperson has made a claim one way or the other that I have read, but that was stated in the same post. I am not arguing the point with Carol or yourself. I just want clarification about the "rules" and who made them. My personal belief about what NADA will be able to achieve as far as standards is that it will set standards for NADA only. That's it. Certainly, Asian breeders could care less, and I seriously doubt Germany will be contacting us before their show next year.

See you in a few weeks,

Mat

ShinShin

06-27-2006, 01:56 AM

Jimmy,

The last 1/3 of your post was mostly just philosophical and had nothing to do with what was being discussed. Then you topped it off with an emotional twist, which also has absolutely nothing to due with the subject. You are trying to make a point like a politician.

First off, you are pleading with many people to believe you who have no idea if what you say is true or not. You know this, hence the emotioal "mother loves you" crap to gain their support. Second of all, most here are hobbyists, many new to the hobby. You know this as well. How many here do you think have had discus long enough to have 7 generations of a type or strain of discus? How about 2 generations? Secondly, after answering those questions, how many do you think have space and money to keep tankfuls of cull discus to experiment as you do, Doctor? On the other hand, just because you do, why are you trying to force your way onto those ( in a half way insulting manner, I may add ) who would rather improve a strain by using quality discus mated to quality discus? Like I said, some Asian breeders are taking the discus down the same road they took the goldfish. Some people don't like that.

Curved spinal columns have been attributed to the high bodied strains. This has been published in books by reputable discus breeders, and accepted as such. Where's the arguement, anyway? Liking or disliking is subjective. However, adhering to a standard takes subjectivity and emotionalism away.

Anyway, it's late. Your done posting again, so have fun with your bulldogs. You have a few that jumped on your badnwagon, as they will jump on the next one that comes by. ;)

Mat

Kenny's Discus

06-27-2006, 02:29 AM

Anyway, it's late. Your done posting again, so have fun with your bulldogs. You have a few that jumped on your badnwagon, as they will jump on the next one that comes by. ;)

Mat

I wonder who are those few that jumped on Jimmy's bandwagon...

Kenny

Kenny's Discus

06-27-2006, 03:58 AM

Also, if by crossing a bulldog one can produce offsprings like those in #130, #131 & #147; I would love to cross it myself. Those offsprings do not look deformed a bit...as least to me personally. In fact I think they give you a very elegant look with those high-body shapes. Some might like them while others might not...but again to each his own.

Respect should be given to those who won't keep these in their tanks; likewise anyone who find these bulldogs attractive deserves the same respect from those who don't...unless someone can objectively say that #130, #131 & #147 were culls.(offsprings of bulldog parents)

JMO
Kenny

terps

06-27-2006, 08:09 AM

A cull by any other name is still a cull. Thank goodness the Germans have standards.

The Duisburg discus show in Germany is later this year.

http://worldshows.discusnews.com/duisburg06/index.shtml

Squiggy

06-27-2006, 08:35 AM

:confused:

I'd have to wonder if this turq doesn't have some bulldog in its lineage....

http://worldshows.discusnews.com/duisburg06/html/redturq.shtml

crimson cross

06-27-2006, 11:00 AM

Regardless of where this debate will end up, bulldogs are here to stay, whether you like them or not....The top breeders in the world including European breeders know this fact too.....don't kid yourself thinking that "round" fish is the way to go..Round fish maybe the "standard" but a "higher" standard is in the making for the last 20 years..So if you are into competition, higher is the way....
I respect everyone's choice regarding oval, round or tall, afterall, you have to like what you want to keep.
Phil.

terps

06-27-2006, 11:34 AM

There's nothing wrong with high body fish. They've been around for decades. But the discus with the crooked spines and dented faces are culls. They should not be bred. They shouldn't even be sold. The breeders that are producing them should be mocked, ridiculed and belittled. IMO, they have no ethics. Shame on them.

crimson cross

06-27-2006, 11:49 AM

chompy

06-27-2006, 11:56 AM

Well this thread is obviously going nowhere. We are all sharing our opinions... but in the end it only YOUR opinion, and I don't think there is a right or wrong opinion.

kjmillerfw

06-27-2006, 12:26 PM

Just think...we could all still be little tadpoles if genetic mutations did not occur and create new varieties and/or species of organisms.

I really doubt that the "Discus Bulldog" would make either Hugo De Vries, or Gregor Mendel roll over in their graves.

Greg Richardson

06-27-2006, 01:49 PM

I didn't want to hijack another thread so I'm putting this quote from Marie here. Maries quote is what the majority of people would think.
This isn't about Marie.
It's about the perception the name has given the type of fish.

I think or hear 'bulldog' I straight away think of the 'smashed in face/cute puckered lip look'!

That's exactly why the name that was given SUCKS!

Whom ever started that name should have tried attending marketing 101 class first.

Kenny's Discus

06-27-2006, 03:21 PM

Bulldogs that has dented faces and crooked spines are deformed...but have you really seen an undeformed bulldog? It's nothing more than a very tall bodied discus....
This type of fish can pay dividends to your breeding programe...
Phil.

Exactly my point. Not every bulldog has compressed face/spines. I myself don't like those extreme types nor do I think it's an ethical thing to breed those either. But this IMO is an undeformed bulldog that has a very high body & fin which can be useful in future breeding purposes for "high" shapes.

Kenny

rsawest@yahoo.com

06-27-2006, 03:30 PM

So if I understand everything I've read, there are two "types" of "bulldogs" or "standing egg" or egg-shaped discus.

One kind has a "smashed" or indented face and an oddly shaped spine.

The other type is simply a very high bodied fish, like the one Kenny has just posted or a Blue Knight.

I have seen a Hong Kong "bulldog" here in Minnesota about a year or two ago. Terry Lum brought some back from a trip from Hong Kong along with some albinos turqs. I believe he said that the Bulldog was much more expensive than the albinos.

My impression was that the bulldog wasn't very large at all. Maybe 4-5 inches, but it was definitely high-bodied. I don't remember if it was an adult fish or not. It wasn't my cup of tea. But I do like high bodied fish.

That's my two cents.

Linda

Kenny's Discus

06-27-2006, 03:35 PM

kaceyo

06-27-2006, 04:34 PM

There aren't two different types. A full blown bulldog has 5 bars and the indented face. The others, like standing egg or BK's etc, have a high degree of bulldog influence while the high/deep bodied fish have less influence from the bulldog. Many round fish also have the bulldog genes which are sometimes ued to "round out" lines with football tendencies. I still have seen no proof that bulldogs have twisted spines or less vertibrae tho I see people still talk as if it were a fact that backs up there opinion. Mocked, ridiculed and belittled! Give me a break, lol!!!

Kacey

Kenny's Discus

06-27-2006, 05:02 PM

Hi Kacey - no offense to you but small correction. These days most full blown bulldogs have indented faces but they don't have to be just 5 bars. They can have 9 or 14 bars just like normal discus do...but due to their compressed bodies their stress bars will be "pushed" towards the center.

Kenny

snooze

06-27-2006, 06:01 PM

I'll quote a poster(Shaq) from the Singapore Club discus board:

"The so called bulldog is a bloody deformed fish . Can you imagine guys throwing a few hundred dollars to buy defective stuff. Guys who were culling this fish are now promoting it for a fast buck. "

Shaq said it much better than I could. I think sales are probably down a lot in Asia, so some sellers are grasping at straws promoting junk. I remember how so many people got burned thinking the Flower Horn was the future. That didn't work out too well for them.

kaceyo

06-27-2006, 06:41 PM

Hey Kenny,
No offence taken. I'm here to learn like most us are. My understanding is that the 100% bulldogs have only 5 bars but I have no personal experience with the "full blown" BD's so that could be wrong. I can say that in the few pics I've seen of them they had only 5. The ones with 8 bars or more it seemed had less than full BD traits.

Kacey

Kenny's Discus

06-27-2006, 07:07 PM

Thanks Kacey it's ok no problem at all. I'll post some pics of some of my breeder friends' full blown bulldogs with more than 5 bars as mentioned a bit later so you can judge them yourself. Some of my friends like them but they are not my cup of tea though...too strong for my taste lol.

Take care,
Kenny

kaceyo

06-27-2006, 07:29 PM

Kenny's Discus

06-27-2006, 07:34 PM

I'd love to see them Kenny. I don't like the extreme version either. But I think it's hard to beat the look of a nice Blue Knight cruising my tank. They have a regal and proud appearence. I've liked the very high & deep bodied discus since I first saw one in Jack Wattleys "new" Handbook of Discus.

Kacey

Exactly Kacey. Again the emphasis is on NOT THE EXTREME TYPES; but those such as the hi-body/fin BD Leopard I posted on reply # 185.(It's not my fish)

You see Kacey even within our close group of breeder friends some really liked them while others totally hated them...thus I kept saying "to each his own".

Kenny

Kindredspirit

06-28-2006, 08:06 AM

kaceyo

06-28-2006, 10:03 AM

Kenny,
I agree 100%. And thats as it should be. I may not want to run out and buy a pure BD but I can see the potential that they represent in a breeding program and I can admire them in their own right. There should allways be room for other ideas than your own.

Kacey

Ryan

06-28-2006, 11:51 AM

I still have seen no proof that bulldogs have twisted spines or less vertibrae tho I see people still talk as if it were a fact that backs up there opinion. Mocked, ridiculed and belittled! Give me a break, lol!!!

I've seen no proof either way, which means that until I'm given evidence that these fish are structurally "normal" I'm going to assume they have some kind of spinal deformity. Every other fish I can think of that is highly compressed compared to its "normal" shape usually has either a spinal deformity or a short spine.

Surely people like JimmyL have had bulldogs die that they could dissect and take pictures of. If he's 7 generations into the line, there have been old fish that died by now. Jimmy says that he has proof of all this stuff, but all he's posted here are some random pictures of adult fish and write-ups claiming what he's bred and raised. That is fine, I am not discreditng him... but I still haven't seen photos of things like bulldogs with fry, very young/small bulldogs, pictures of dissected bulldogs that proves they are not structurally different than normal discus, etc.

If people are going to defend these fish so heavily and claim that they are healthy, normal discus, they should be more than happy to provide us with information to prove it. That would put the whole debate about bulldog shape and structure to rest once and for all. So far, none of these breeders (who are making a mint off these fish, by the way) have taken the time or effort to provide this information to anyone. Everyone is being very secretive. If there is nothing to hide about this fish, why is no one talking?

Ryan

Tony_S

06-28-2006, 12:02 PM

Excellent post Ryan....I agree with you 100%

Tough questions....but if history really does repeat, unfortunately you wont get any answers to them....So far it's repeating itself.

Tony

Ryan

06-28-2006, 12:17 PM

Tough questions....but if history really does repeat, unfortunately you wont get any answers to them....So far it's repeating itself.

I know. This happens everytime something new comes out into the discus scene. But since we've got people claiming to have proof, and claiming that these discus are 'normal,' I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask for the proof. Why have it if you're not going to share it and explain it to people, after all?

Ryan

Elcid

06-28-2006, 12:38 PM

Hi Ryan:

I think Jimmy's right, It's upto the "Nay Sayers" to prove that there is a reason not to buy the fish. The "Yea Sayers" will keep tempting you with all the marketing they can conjure up. Obviously, Jimmy's been enjoying coffee for 7 generations with this "agressive 5 bar bulldog that lays 400 eggs and breeds champions" Can't really blame him. WTG, Jimmy! :) :D

take care,
Sandeep

kaceyo

06-28-2006, 12:43 PM

Squiggy

06-28-2006, 01:45 PM

Ryan,
I agree there should be more information being offered and I would like to see some unbiased and unemotional biological studies of these fish. I don't see it happening in the near future tho so we are left, as usual, with only our observations and anecdotal info to go on. I also don't assume that because the info isn't being offered there must be a cover up. As you say, people who claim there are spinal deformities aren't showing any proof either. Those that sell the fish aren't going to take it on because they have a financial investment they don't want to risk. So where does that leave us? We each must decide for ourselves based on what little info there is available. I completely understand your reservations about these fish but I don't think we should eliminate them from the discus world based on the idea there might be something wrong with them.

Kacey

Kacey,

That post seems laden with faultlines....First, how are those without the fish onhand supposed to be the ones to offer proof? As you stated, the sellers of these fish have a financial stake in this. Thus, it is to their advantage to undertake clearing the name and putting the rumors to rest. Don't you think they would have if they could have? Do you really believe none have investigated at this point? Theres a lot to be said about what isn't being said....
My concern with these ventures is the dimunition of the remaining market. These fish don't breed true as bulldogs and the remainder of the spawn is dumped into the market under whatever classification seems to fit it...leaving you and I to unwittingly purchase carriers of unwanted genes...

IMO, even the wilds have been polluted by wholsalers relocating color variations in hopes of producing wild caught turqs, etc...thats why you're seeing strange color combos coming right out of the Amazon...:bandana:

kaceyo

06-28-2006, 04:09 PM

Squiggy,
I never said those without the fish on hand should be the ones to offer proof. I was saying that those without the fish on hand are making claims about the fish that they can't prove. That was the whole point. I don't think those that sell the fish have any interest in proving anything one way or the other, right or wrong. Since they would have their own agenda you couldn't take the info they offered at face value anyways. Your idea that because they aren't denying it they must be hiding something is just assumption on your part. I don't think there is alot more to be said on this subject untill more reliable scientific information comes forward and even then people will still disagree about what it means, so...?

Kacey

Kenny's Discus

06-28-2006, 07:01 PM

Not trying to start any arguement...more like trying to clarify here:

A simple question: why do I need to have proof of some fish that I found enjoyable? I think the consensus is that the extreme types of bulldog will not be accepted by us(including myself) anytime soon. But due to everyone having different tastes; if, for some reason, I found those less extremes desirable, should I dissect 1 of them and make sure they have normal spines? This part of the discussion really confused me...

Hi Kacey - here are the pics as mentioned. Note that I don't own any of them myself.

This is a FB bulldog(throwback) that most of us hate...I sure think it is deformed. NO MORE QUESTION?

Kenny's Discus

06-28-2006, 07:03 PM

This is also a FB BD snakes that is deformed IMO. No arguement there right?

Kenny's Discus

06-28-2006, 07:05 PM

Now these are the less extreme bulldogs that I think are aceptable due to their "high" shapes. Keep in mind NOT ALL BULLDOGS ARE CREATED EQUAL.

Kenny's Discus

06-28-2006, 07:09 PM

Another BD with uncompressed spines and face. I hope by showing the last 2 pics others who don't like bulldogs can at least understand why these LESS EXTREMES TYPES appeal to some of us. Sure you don't have to like them and I respect that, but if I like them I don't think I need to dissect 1 of them b4 owning them. Again I do not own any of these fish myself.

Take care,
Kenny

Kindredspirit

06-28-2006, 07:38 PM

Sorry Kenny ~ cld not talk right now ~ will call you in a few tho ~ I think the three pics you posted are great comparisons! Even I can understand now~

I can go with the second and third picture but post #205 just doesnt work for me ~ deformed or not? Why is it so important to prove to someone that it is or isnt deformed? I do not understand ~ I do not know and I do not know if it really matters? I just think it looks wrong on so many levels ~ I think where a lot of problems lie is within the NAME of this fish ~ BULLDOG ~ I think of a squashed in face/with puckered lips ~ I did not know there was another TYPE of BD~ Now I do!

But if people like them ~ it is what it is ~ why the big stink? If you do not like something do not buy it or look at it ~

But the bottom line is money ~ if there is a demand there will be a supply ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_134.gif

Kenny's Discus

06-28-2006, 07:46 PM

Hi Marie - by showing the above 4 pics I'm not promoting bulldogs there...I definitely don't have a taste for the 1st 2 as well. Just trying to give a better picture as to what bulldogs we were talking about. And yes I think there are different types of bulldogs.

No offense to anyone but here's my last time...to each its own.

Kenny

kaceyo

06-28-2006, 07:57 PM

Kenny,
Thanks very much for the pics. I agree they do look like FB BD's with normal bar counts. They are the first I've seen like that. Some very nice fish in there too. BTW, I don't hate the FB BD's, I just don't like them. Those that do should be able to keep and take on the challange of breeding them as they please.

Kacey

Kenny's Discus

06-28-2006, 08:15 PM

You're welcome Kacey. I'm totally fine with whether ppl liking them or not. I'm not promoting bulldogs...but FREEDOM to choose.

Kenny

Kindredspirit

06-28-2006, 08:26 PM

but FREEDOM to choose.

Kenny

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14_2_100.gif

White Worm

06-28-2006, 08:30 PM

I choose YELLOW! Oh... I already have those............. I choose RED! LMAO! Who cares, its a stale mate / cats game, whatever you want to call it, lol. Kenny said it, everyone has a right to like what they like and have what they enjoy swimming in their tanks. You can hate em or love em, theyre here, have been for a while and probably will be for a while longer. Peace, Mike

Elcid

06-28-2006, 08:55 PM

Gosh, it's kinda sad to end this thread like this. All this Freedom to choose reminds me of another choice made by our leader! :D :D :D

Where's my eggs? :)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=45980

take care,
Sandeep

ronman

06-29-2006, 09:34 AM

Maybe someone could start a (fillet the BD) fund raising , use the money raised to buy a BD and cut it up to measure/count the spine so the matter can be laid to rest till the next blue moon.LOL.

ron

Kindredspirit

06-29-2006, 10:19 AM

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_1.gif

Beth

07-02-2006, 08:35 AM

Well.........
it looks like I'm back where I was when I started this thread :crazy: :confused: :crazy: ........ I haven't learned anything more about how or what a True Bulldog really is :angry:

Beth

Carol_Roberts

07-02-2006, 11:08 AM

Hi Beth:
Let me start by saying I haven't read thru every post on this thread. . . .

I do know that JimmyL has was working on the bulldog before any of us had heard the term. With any new form there is a wide variation in the beginning (before the type is set). Intermediates by definition are what comes between the beginning and the final product. Jimmy's base stock may well have a compressed body, but the ones he's posted photos of do not look deformed to me. Rather he has defined the bulldog as having five stress bars, high body and well developed lower jaw/face.

I would bet the Bulldog Discus spawns produce a wide variety of shapes. I would guess breeders are selecting those with the strongest bulldog traits. It is sometimes hard to guess which of the youngsters posess the best genes to pass on. I think given time we will see improvements in dish/beaky face and overall shape. Remember how much pepper the pigeons used to have?

LuckyYou

07-10-2006, 11:21 PM

These originate from a wild variety dubbed "giant discus" by the germans that were "supposedly" caught in the Rio Maderia in the mid 80's. They were crossed into current strains to try and help develop the high body that was coveted with discus breeders at the time. They had the high body, 5 stress bars and the dreaded dented forehead that exaggerates the weird look. They were also very large fish.. 9 or 10 inches fully grown. Some of you who have been in this hobby a long time might remember the rash of weird looking discus with round or even football shaped bodies with the dented foreheads. These were all too common in the german bloodlines. They looked horrible to say the least and there were a lot of them around at the time (around the early 90's)... apparently the early efforts to cross these with established strains? At least the asians cleaned up the efforts and produced some beautiful fish out of them. I do agree however that some of them have gone overboard and the really tall fish look kind of weird... shaped like the head of an axe in a sense. You also should keep in mind that all of the funky color varieties these days are the result of severe inbreeding (manipulated by mankind) by us over many years. The side effects (deformities, immune deficiencies) of such inbreeding are just as bad as breeding to "enhance" body shape. The only true "natural" breeding of discus would be to only utilize wild caught parents.

kaceyo

07-10-2006, 11:56 PM

Hi LuckyYou,
If what you say is true, it would kind of turn the tables on many of the denouncers of the Bulldog as an unatural mutant created by unethical (non-euro non-amero?) breeders. I like this possibility.

Kacey

LuckyYou

07-11-2006, 01:07 AM

Here's an article on some of the early years of discus breeding. Anyone remember "Sunny" Lo Wing Yat? He was the big name in discus in the late 80's. Anyway, there's a little info in there about the german giants. Back then the holy grail was developing a completely solid blue or green discus, and browns and reds were worthless. Actually, there was a lot of debate back then whether there was any such thing as a truly red discus. Funny how things have changed since then.

http://www.aic-kumamoto.co.jp/wwff/sb_01.htm

kaceyo

07-11-2006, 09:48 AM

When I first became interested in discus in the 80's my first fish came from Jack Wattley in Florida. I didn't know much about discus at that time but it didn' take long to realize that Jack was the man you wanted your fish to come from in the US (and elsewhere). Later, as I learned a bit more, I was able to talk a friend and fellow discus enthusiast, who happened to own a pet store, into ordering some of the new "solid blue" Cobalts from Aquarium Rio in Germany (Hieko Bleher) that were bred by Dr Schmidt-Foke. They were stunning, like no fish I'd ever seen before. I'd just stare at them and marvel at what I called the "tin foil blue" colors of those fish. I do enjoy hearing the histories of the various strains.
Thanks,

Kacey

Imperialdiscus

07-13-2006, 04:31 PM

Interesting article.

Funny because I dealt almost exclusively with fish produced by Lo Wing Yat through the 90's.

Since his main importer in the US retired from the business, I have kind of wondered what happened to him.

FYI, an odd thing in the article though as no mention is made of any relationship between the Lo Wing Yat Super Brilliant WB12 and the Blue Diamond WB22, when in fact they were closely related, and WB12 produced small quantities of Blue Diamonds.

Here's an article on some of the early years of discus breeding. Anyone remember "Sunny" Lo Wing Yat? He was the big name in discus in the late 80's. Anyway, there's a little info in there about the german giants. Back then the holy grail was developing a completely solid blue or green discus, and browns and reds were worthless. Actually, there was a lot of debate back then whether there was any such thing as a truly red discus. Funny how things have changed since then.

http://www.aic-kumamoto.co.jp/wwff/sb_01.htm