Please diagnose and advise treatment (pics)

[chompy]

Holes have been forming on this turqs head... obviously I think its hith but I'm confused. He/she is acting normal, eating fine, clear eyes, good colour... I thaught if it was hith he would show some negitive symptoms other than holes. It's confusing also because hith is because of poor water quality, I do 40% w/c daily and its an established tank so the biofiltration is fine. I'll have my test kit in a couple week or so to test the water, but I thaught if the tank is established and I do 40% w/c's, the water should be fine.

This is a pic from about 2 months ago
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/chompy8/HPIM0476.jpg

Pics from today
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/chompy8/HPIM0709.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/chompy8/HPIM0717.jpg

Has a white film on a stot on his caudal fin and one of his pectoral fins. Probably nothing but thaught it might help
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/chompy8/HPIM0722.jpg

I just finished treating with metro. I raised the temp to 92 and gave them 400mg of metro twice a day for three days, I would have given him it 3 times a day but only enough for two. I'm still keeping the temp high for anouther week or so though.

Any help would be much appreciated :)

[jeep]

It's confusing also because hith is because of poor water quality,

Not necessarily true. HITH can be caused by many things ranging from water quality to diet to prior illness. Most of the time it's a diet deficiency.

I would treat for internal parasites with Panacur, levamisol (sp) or something other than Metro (since you already have use it), then get yourself some Red Wigglers, which are very high in protein, and since they are composters they will absorb anything you feed them including medications. Feeding the worms a diet high in protein, vitamins and minerals will be an excellent way to cure HITH in your fish.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=31031

[Kindredspirit]

So Brian ~

Is this HITH? Simply cuz it is spreading? Is HITH a secondary infection to the real problem?

Thanks Brian ~

Chompy ~ I hope you see some improvement soon:) They are beautiful!



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif

[Alight]

I second the nutritional approach.

Also, remove carbon if you are using it in your tank filters.

I also use liquid vitamins in my dry discus food, and use Hikari blood worms and mysis shrimp that are fortified with vitamins.

Yes, this is HITH. And HITH causes have not been proven. So if it is an infection itself, or simply a degeneration caused by malnutrition, and the malnutrition may be caused by infectious agents, is unknown (at least by me).

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Al ~


How do you add liquid vit to your dry food? Drop it on right before feeding? Cld I ask what kind?


Thanks!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif

[pcsb23]

Another thing to bear in mind here. If it was internal flagellates, they most likely have been dealt with by the metro. HITH does not disapear overnight. You are right to keep the temps elevated, although not everyone agrees with that. For the record it is not essential to raise the temperature when treating with metro.

I agree though with Brian and Al, it is just as likely to be as a result of poor diet as any of a number of others. Personally I would not treat further, but panacur is a safe med to use so there will be no harm done. It must be fed in food, do NOT put it into the water. Good food and good water will see the fish recover well. It is important though to keep the tank as clean as possible for the next few weeks as it will run the risk of secondary infections like fungus.

[poconogal]

Not necessarily true. HITH can be caused by many things ranging from water quality to diet to prior illness. Most of the time it's a diet deficiency.

I would treat for internal parasites with Panacur, levamisol (sp) or something other than Metro (since you already have use it), then get yourself some Red Wigglers, which are very high in protein, and since they are composters they will absorb anything you feed them including medications. Feeding the worms a diet high in protein, vitamins and minerals will be an excellent way to cure HITH in your fish.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=31031
I have a BD that started getting little holes. He would only eat BH (commercial, as I had just gotten the BD a few weeks before). Once he finally began accepting other foods, the holes cleared up really quick. Coincidentally, he began accepting other foods once the holes began, so maybe something cued him in! Who knows?! So, I also vote for dietary causes of HITH.
Connie

[chompy]

I thaught I was feeding them well. I feed them earthworm flake, colour bits hikari pellets, and frozen bs. I feed them like 4-5 times a day too. What else should I feed them... I don't know where to get red wrigglers either. Should I just start feeding them bh with vitamins in it?

[pcsb23]

Tyler, that sounds like a reasonably good diet to me, although I dont know of the earthworm flake!! Red wrigglers are small worms, often sold as bait in angling shops, you also get the from compost heaps.

I would swap the brine shrimp for mysis shrimp and add some frozen blood worm in, otherwise I think its good.

[chompy]

Just thaught of something. The fish's poop is thread like sometimes, do you think it has worms... and maybe the worms are robbing the fish of nutrients causing a bad diet and therefor hith?

[jeep]

The possibility of this being diet related may not mean you are not feeding good foods. I don't believe you are doing anything wrong. Intestinal parasites like tapeworms or caparillia will rob the fish of vital nutrients, which is why I recommend treating with a medication other than Metro. Metro is good with Hex but not much else. Hi heat is the best alternative, but the temps required to kill the parasites (95+) can also kill the fish if it has been weakened in the least.


So Brian ~

Is this HITH? Simply cuz it is spreading? Is HITH a secondary infection to the real problem?


I'm agreeing with HITH because I've seen it before and this is a classic case but it's not too far advanced. This fish can make a good recovery. Hexamita is found in the holes, which is why people always treat with Metro, but I beleive Hexamita is just being opportunistic and settling in the holes. They are a secondary problem.

My experience with HITH came when I first joined this hobby and a misdiagnosed illness resulted in an overdose of copper, which I think weakened the livers in my fish and in the end they had problems absorbing proper nutrients. Al recommended I try some red wigglers, I did, and I added a high amount of vitamins and minerals to the worms diet. The problem went away very quickly and my fish rebounded 100%.

You can order red wigglers from Dan at Kazaree worm farm. Last I knew, his price was around $22 for 1 pound delivered to your door. The fish won't quite know what to do with them at first but will quickly learn to devour them, lol...

hth,
brian

[Kindredspirit]

I'm agreeing with HITH because I've seen it before and this is a classic case but it's not too far advanced. This fish can make a good recovery. Hexamita is found in the holes, which is why people always treat with Metro, but I beleive Hexamita is just being opportunistic and settling in the holes. They are a secondary problem.

brian


Brian this is exactly what Dan told me as well ~ You are good, Sir! And you explain things very simple and extremely well!:)

Red Wigglers ~ they are like....alive ....yes? Hence the name I am assuming ~ I bet my fish wld love them as I used to feed cbw ~


Thanks Brian!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif

[jeep]

Red Wigglers can be hard and messy to feed, but beefheart is a PITA to make as well. Adult worms have to be chopped up and it's a mess, but the nutritional benifits are HUGE!!!

[Kindredspirit]

chopped up? While they wiggle? Oh Hell No!