I might have "Marie's" Problem in my QT!!! [Archive]

WendiDeCato

06-22-2006, 02:59 PM

Hey everyone. I came here to research a problem that I seem to have in my 30 gallon QT. I came across "Marie has done it now" and I am afraid that my babies might have the same problem!

Stats:
30 gallon
Aquaclear 300 HOB filter with 3 sponges in the back
1/2" gravel
Small piece of driftwood and silk plants
Tank has been fully cycled for 3.5 years
Water changes are 30% every day with gravel vacuuming.
Temp: 86
PH: 7.6
GH: 4
KH: 4
Am: 0
NitrItes: 0
NitrAtes: 5-10

Fish Info:
3 Discus (1-1.5" Tangerine, 1-3.5" Green Turk, 1-3.5" Golden Pigeon Blood), 1-4" Pleco, 1-Striped Raphael Cat

The discus have been in this QT tank for 3 days. When I got them home and was acclimating them, I noticed that the GT had what looked like a scrape mark on his side. After over an hour of acclimating, I put them all in the tank. I added Melafix to help repair the "scrape".

For the first two days, the Golden and the RT swam briskly around the tank. They were not the least bit shy. I was very convinced that they were healthy. The only problem at first was that they did not want to eat what I was feeding them. The place where I got them feeds Live Tubifex. I am too afraid of what diseases they might bring, so I feed Hikari Frozen Blood Worms and flakes. The little Tangerine seems to love the FBW, but the other two swim by as if they do not even notice that there is food inthe tank.

So, yesterday I went and got some live blood worms to try to tempt them to eat. Sure enough the two larger Discus ate for the first time since I have had them. They didn't eat much at all, but they seemed interested for the first time.

I noticed the GT taking the worms in and spitting them out and then taking them in again. I thought it was probably since the worms are so long and squiggly.

This morning, I fed them again and watched really closely to see if they would eat. While I was looking closely, I realized that the "scrape" on the GT is a lot bigger now and that he seems to have one on the other side, as well. It basically looks like his color was rubbed off. When I am looking straight down at the fish, down the sade of his body, or looking him straight in the mouth, I can really see it. It is harder to see if I look directly at his side.

Basically, it looks a lot like the photos in Marie's post. On top of that, he turned dark this morning and started hiding down by the filter intake. I know now that I have to act fast.

The Tangerine has a little opaque coloring on her fins and also definitely has all of the signs of gill flukes, flashing, clamped or extended gills, etc. I was prepared to treat with Prazipro after this evening's water change. That is always part of my QT procedure anyway.

Now that I have noticed the problems in the GT, I don't know what to treat first. I only have one QT tank and I think that since these fish have been exposed to eachother, I should treat them all together. I know from reading Marie's post that if my fish have the same thing as hers, they need to be treated immediately. Can I treat the tank with both Furan 2 and Prazipro or will they interact badly with eachother?

I remember reading that some of you thought that her problem was bacterial and some thought it might be parasitic. I need some advice quick! SO much has happened in the last couple of days that I think I am going to lose my mind soon.

Thank you.

pcsb23

06-22-2006, 04:03 PM

Them not eating could be down simply to a change of environment, it can take a few days, even weeks before some settle.

As for the scrape it could be parasitic or bacterial. Also with one of them showing gill fluke symptoms too, we do need to act. I would strongly recommend removing all the gravel and the wood and the plants. It will make treating them easier and keeping the tank clean easier. However that is your choice, the efficacy of the meds can be affected by substrates and decorations.

I would recommend treating in situ with either PP or FMG. This is how I would do it. Day1 First do as big a water change as possible, next treat with PP or FMG after a few hours, 4 to 6, or if they get too stressed sooner, do another large w/c. If you use PP get some Hydrogen Peroxide to de-activate it with. too. Day2 w/c and let them rest, day 3 treat with PP or FMG, w/c. Day 4 w/c & rest. Day5 treat with PP or FMG, w/c. Then from Day 6 see how they look. You may need to retreat on day12 and day 18 to get any flukes that hatch in that time. I would keep the temps around 84F and add ana airstone too. Both will compromise your bio filter some so be prepared for additioanl w/c for a while. W/c should be a minimum of 50% with preferably aged water, but if you use tap make sure that you use a suitable dechlor.

I would expect to see an improvement quite quickly, like on day or day 4. They will look rotten just after treatment, but after the w/c they should perk up. Feed lightly and I would steer well clear of live blood worms and tubifex. Frozen blood worm is good, as is mysis.

If they decline then we may have to change course and reconsider.

hth,

WendiDeCato

06-22-2006, 05:32 PM

Thank you Paul.

So, what does PP and FMG stand for? Prazipro and Formalin?

So, you seem to think that the most important thing to treat for is the gill flukes even though the one who looks like his skin is peeling off doesn't seem to have fluke problems?

The one that has the gill issues is the one who looks good and is actually eating.

The fish with the white on it's skin is the one who turned dark this morning and refused to eat. He also has a new roundish patch of white that looks like his skin has been shaved off. I thought this was a symptom of Columnarius, the disease that kills fish so quickly.

Can I treat for flukes and Columnaris at the same time? I have Furan 2 and Prazipro at home. Also, would it be a good idea to put salt in the tank?

Thank you for your help. I am pretty new at this disease stuff. I kept Discus a few years ago, but never had any problems. I am starting to wonder if I can do this. I am lucky that I have this site!

Wendi

pcsb23

06-22-2006, 06:15 PM

Sorry Wendi, I sometimes type as if people know my thoughts! (Heaven help them if they did)

PP = Potassium Permanganate
FMG = Formalin and Malachite Green

Both act as 'bug' killers, both are very effective for ectoparasites and both will give speedy results. So we will know quickly if we have made the wrong call. Both will deal with flukes as well. You cannot and must not use them together! apparently formalin and pp is explosive!

Ok so having read the remainder of you 2nd post:-

The fish with the white on it's skin is the one who turned dark this morning and refused to eat. He also has a new roundish patch of white that looks like his skin has been shaved off. I thought this was a symptom of Columnarius, the disease that kills fish so quickly.

Can I treat for flukes and Columnaris at the same time? I have Furan 2 and Prazipro at home. Also, would it be a good idea to put salt in the tank?

You may not want to use PP or FMG, and it will only be effective against columnaris if the columnaris is external. From what you describe it may be columnaris too.

So forget what I said above (excpet that pp= etc..)

If the fish thats flashing does not have any of the white patches then that is most likely flukes, the others may have columnaris, or an external parasite (ectoparasite). In answer to your question I believe you can use Prazi with Furan 2. I know for certain you can use flubenol with furan 2. Prazi and flubenol are similar-ish. I would just use the furan 2 at this time. You will need to do daily w/c's (the pack will say don't but they aim that at non-discus keepers) and re-dose daily for 10 to 12 days. Also add salt, in case there is some gill damage. I'm not normally a fan of salting tanks, but this is slightly different. 1 (or 2) tablespoons per 10 gallons of salt and add back what you remove with w/c's. I'm pretty sure the dose for furan is 100mg per 10 gallons, and you will need that daily after w/c's. Keep the lights off and add an airstone if you can. Also keep the temps at 84f.

Sorry if I've confused you but hopefully I've made myself clear this time :) and hopefully it will work too! Fingers crossed.

I am starting to wonder if I can do this. I am lucky that I have this site! Wendi
You will be ok, there are a lot of experienced people on here who can help most situations. Good luck.

Kindredspirit

06-22-2006, 06:22 PM

I am starting to wonder if I can do this. I am lucky that I have this site!

Wendi

If I can do it Wendy so can you ~ trust me okay? And you have the best helping you ~ It might seem dif than my prob tho ~ I saw that white spot and they were down flat....12 hours later ~ over night ~

Pm me your number if you are in the states and I can call you ~ and hang in there okay?

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_1_18.gif

Graham

06-22-2006, 07:32 PM

I'm going to add several cents in here.....1st off PP and F&MG are not explosive....you would never use then at the same time together mind you ...to much of a harsh chemical soup, but they won't explode...they will use up lots of O2 minf you. The PP as an oxidizer and the Formalin displaceing it. neither should be used in high water temps due to lower O2 levels.

Before using either chemical the organics of the system should be lowered as they'll expend thier abilities on them 1st. Water changes should be done between F&MG green treatments and Hydrogen Peroxide should not be used till the end of the treatments as it takes several days for it to totally clear from the water.

Neither are great fluke killers and Prazi or Prazipro would be a much safer and better fluke killer...if that's what you have. Flashing can be from any number of micro parasites...flukes being one of the more minor ones.

If you use PP then do not use other meds at the same time as it will oxidize them . Always have hydrogen peroxidize or a de-chlor on hand to neutralize the PP in case the dose is blown.

Do not use salt and F&MG together...lots of reports of burnt fish with in the ponding aspect of the hobby.

If you feel you have a fungus problem and it's minor then swab the infected once using a Q-Tip and some iodine....keeping it out of the gills, eyes and mouth. This will dis-infect the area and give you time to figure out exactly what you have...ideally a scrape and a microscopic study will ID the problem.

Melafix is all but useless on anything but very minor scrapes after the manin problem has been cleared up and there are numerous reports of it being a major gill irritant...IMO it's not a product that should ever be used.

Several cents worth;)

G

Kindredspirit

06-22-2006, 09:02 PM

. Always have hydrogen peroxidize or a de-chlor on hand to neutralize the PP in case the dose is blown.

G

Hey Graham ~ How wld one know if the dose was/is blown? Like if they roll over or start trippin in other ways?

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

Graham

06-22-2006, 10:10 PM

Marie, The 1st and best sign that a PP dose has been blown is they'll all be at the surface gasping....lack of O2. PP is an oxidizer and therefore uses a lot of O2 in this chemical process. Extra airstones or spray bars should be added when using it

Another later sign that too much PP has been used is there be white on the tips of the fins..brunt. You'll see the same thing on gill filament edges also.

The chemical reaction can be stopped almost instantly with Hydrogen Peroxide or Sodium Thiosulfate/de-chlor.

Also keep in mind that both PP and the Hydrogen peroxide can and will do a job on all bacteria in the system both good and bad

PP is great stuff for certain things but caution needs to be exercised when using it.

G

raglanroad

06-22-2006, 10:32 PM

hello, Graham...some comments and questions...

.....1st off PP and F&MG are not explosive....you would never use then at the same time together mind you ...to much of a harsh chemical soup, but they won't explode...they will use up lots of O2 minf you. The PP as an oxidizer and the Formalin displaceing it. neither should be used in high water temps due to lower O2 levels.

This is one that I have heard , that they are explosive together. I always add a caution, just because I don't know chemistry and it has been said to be explosive. Since it is not something that is commonly going to be a hindrance to hobbyists if indeed a myth, I haven't tackled it , but I have wondered. I've never tried to explode the two, but I have watched spontaneous combustion of PP.

You know, "better safe than kablooey".

Who is the source of the good info on this?

Before using either chemical the organics of the system should be lowered as they'll expend thier abilities on them 1st. Water changes should be done between F&MG green treatments and Hydrogen Peroxide should not be used till the end of the treatments as it takes several days for it to totally clear from the water.

and I thought the half life of Peroxide in water was, like , ...minutes.

Melafix is all but useless on anything but very minor scrapes after the manin problem has been cleared up and there are numerous reports of it being a major gill irritant...IMO it's not a product that should ever be used.

I am a bit suspicious of Mela - so many new altum died and mela was the favourite prescription to start with, followed by wrong antibiotic/med choices.

any help on these is appreciated. thanks,

Dave

edit: this says they spontaneously ignite, don't know what happens in water though. doesn't sound good for treatment, though I think Jimmy L says they can be used alternately .
http://membership.acs.org/c/ccs/pubs/CLIPS/JCE20030873.pdf

WendiDeCato

06-23-2006, 03:09 PM

Thank you ALL for your responses! You have no idea what it means to me. Thank you also for clarifying PP and FMG. I was almost sure that PP meant Prazipro.

Paul~

I must have been channeling your thoughts last night, because I did just about everything that you said to do. My computer at home is down at the moment, so I wasn't able to read your replies until just now. So, I had to decide on my own what to do. YIKES!

This is what happened last night:

When I got home from work, the fish with the slime coat/faded skin issue was much worse. His whole body is gray and scraped looking. Basicaly, he looks just like Marie's photos, but he is still upright and moving. He and the others were still swimming around, although they have no interest in food whatsoever.

I did my usual water change and then added Furan 2 for what I suspect is Columnaris. I read the back of the package and it said that F2 can be used with any Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Anti-Parasite medication. I know that Prazipro is made by Hikari, but in my past experience, Prazipro seems to be much more gently than anti-parasite meds such as Quick Cure, etc.

I added a dose of Prazipro and 1T/10 gallons of salt and watched (with the lights off in the tank and very dim room lighting as to not deactivate the F2) the fish's reaction. I was prepared to do a huge water change if I saw a strange reaction of any kind. I also woke up several times during the night to monitor them. Basically, all the fish are acting as if there is no medication in the water at all. I have 2 tetras and a cory in the tank and they are even acting as if nothing was added. I take this as a sign that the 2 medications are okay together. So far......

As of this morning, the Discus are still swimming around, but have no desire to eat. I think they are confused as to why they have been in complete darkness for so long. The GT that looks like it has Columnaris tends to hover near the surface or near the bottom corner of the tank for a bit and then will start swimming around with the others.

The GT isn't darting around or anything, but he seems anxious, almost like he is lost and is trying to find his way home. He has acted that way since I got him, always swimming up and down the sides of the tank in an anxious way.

I am hoping that I have covered all of my basis here. I am not a fan of mixing medications. Every time I hear about someone doing it, I get nervous. In this case, it seems to be okay, but I still feel like I need to keep a constant eye on the tank.

Question 1: Is it necessary to block out all light from the tank while using Furan 2? I have heard that it is light sensitive, so I have a blanket over the tank during the day and only take it off for the water change.

Question 2: How long should I use the Furan 2 and the Prazipro? 10 days straight? Should I give thema day or two break at any time?

Question 3: The two larger discus haven't eaten much since they came home with me. They are pretty thin now, and only seem to like live food, but it seems like a bad idea to feed live blood worms right now. I am not sure how long they can go without eating while they are sick. It seems like they need food for energy to fight this thing.

I have sprinkled in a few flakes for the other fish and an algae tablet for the Pleco so that he doesn't get hungry enough to go after the Discus. Should I try to make the Discus eat something?

Question 4: Will F2 actually make the slime coat look worse for a while? I think I remember reading that in Marie's post.

Thank you again everyone!

WendiDeCato

06-23-2006, 03:11 PM

Marie~

Thank you so much for your vote of confidence. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to PM you. I haven't explored the site much yet. I have just been reading everything in the library since I became a member.

I will try to figure it out and send you my number. :) I am located in Washington, by the way.

Wendi

Kindredspirit

06-23-2006, 03:21 PM

Wendi ~ i shall pm you with my numbers and you reply okay;) FYI: click on anyone's name/icon/id and you will see pm link ~

Wendy your water is blueish green correct? I just kept the lights off and didnt worry about the rest of the room ~ and my family room is hella bright too ~ I think the lights off on the tank is sufficient ~

I used Furan2 for 12 days ~ not one day short than that ~ add your meds after wc before adding new water ~ and yes mine did look worse ....my thread is so long and boring but if you can read the dose posts ~ the first five days were the worst ~ esp the first two ~

They also didnt eat on this med as well ~ if I did feed them it was only fbw as not to foul the water ~ I scrubbed that tank every wc all sides and filters too ~ it is and still is the cleanest thing in my house!

Hang in there woman ~ I will call you ~ You can do this Wendy ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif

Kindredspirit

06-23-2006, 03:27 PM

That was hilarious yes? I swear the pm's were sent at the same exact moment! How did you know my 0 was broke on my phone?

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif

AmberC

06-23-2006, 03:35 PM

Wendi,
Good luck with your fish! I hope they pull thru it! I am sure they will. You have the best helping you here! I sent you a pm after your first post here ;) If you look in the upper right hand corner of the screen.. you can see where it says your name and private messages and click on private messages and you can read any messages sent to you and reply to them there.

Amber

lhforbes12

06-23-2006, 03:35 PM

WendiDeCato

06-23-2006, 03:47 PM

Thank you ALL!!!!

Larry~
Yes, Paul certainly seems to be a wealth of knowledge.

Amber~
Hmmm.....I haven't seen your PM. Now, that I know how, I will go back and look for it.

Marie~
Yes. Hilarious indeed! How do I know that you broke the 0 on your cell phone? Because I wasn't kidding when I said that I printed out your post for reference. You weren't able to call Tina at work and tell her that you were in the parking lot ready to pick up the Furan 2...........:)

Do, do you all agree that the tank doesn't actually have to be blocked from all light? That room gets sunlight even with the (white) curtains drawn. I thought the natural light might deactivate the Furan 2.

Let me know if I am wrong because I would love to uncover the tank and let these guys have more of a view.

So, the course is F2 and 1T/10G salt and Prazi for 10-12 days after a 30% water change each day. Whether the symptoms are gone or not.......Does that sound right?

Wendi

lhforbes12

06-23-2006, 03:54 PM

Wendi,
I wouldn't worry about ambient light levels. Go ahead and uncover your tank.
I would treat Furan 2 alone, no salt, no Prazi. Once you start using it you'll see why. Your fish will look like death warmed over. If you want to use salt use it as a dip. Prazi I would use after the Furan 2 treatment is done.

pcsb23

06-23-2006, 04:04 PM

Hi Wendi, I hope I can live up to the billing :) Larry is correect, don't worry about ambient lighting. Strong tank lights and especially sunlight aren't good with furan 2.

I was and am pretty sure prazi can be mixed with most antibiotics. Its a very safe med, difficult to overdose. Furan 2 dose for 12 days. Witht the prazi I would dose every other day. It can only get the flukes when they are 'flukes' and not in eggs or cysts. Make sure you run additional air too if possible.

I have actually found PP or FMG to be extremely effective against flukes when it is dosed correctly, but prazi also works effectively and has the added advantage of getting any tapeworms that might exists, 2 for the rpice of 1!

If you can up you w/c to 50% that may help, if you can't don't worry over it. Like I said earlier I do not like live bloodworms as food, too much risk of pathogens. In my opinion feeding live bloodworm its a case of when do they get sick, not if! Frozen blood worms, those that are irradiated, though are quite safe. I would feed a few frozen blood worms once or twice a day. Keep the tank really clean though, remove uneaten worms after half an hour.

hth,

Graham

06-23-2006, 04:13 PM

Graham & Dave,
H2O2 does have a very short life in the presence of light, why do you think it's sold in opaque bottles? No light and it will linger. In the real world this isn't usually much of a problem.

Wendi,
Do yourself a huge favor and follow Paul's advice.
Just my 2 cents worth

Larry

I Had responses all written up last night to a number of things here and the !@#$%^ computer wiped it out on me..oh well....

Larry... we use a lot...like 1 pint per 1000gals, of H2O2 in the ponding end of things to clear water of the tea colour after PP use or to stop a PP treatment. What we've found is that even after 24 hours there's enough peroxide left to severely affect a new treatment. It's also been used to crank up O2 levels at shows when there been a major problem but it takes about an hour to two hours to have any affect.

Dave If you mixed PP and F%MG in a non water environment then you just might get a boom, it makes up formaldehyde gas or something like that:angel: , but in an aquarium or a pond it wouldn't happen. Mind you you still wouldn't use them together, a real chemical soup..... as one would use up all the O2 and the other would displace it in the fish an embalm them;) :D

Alternating them with water changes in between would be fine.. have done it many times

WendiDeCato

06-23-2006, 04:45 PM

Thank you Larry and Paul.

Paul~
You say to dose with Prazi every other day....even with the daily 50% water change? I just want to make sure I understand before the weekend because I am not sure that is what it says on the bottle.

I actually think that it says that one treatment is good for 3-5 days. Of course, they are not writing the directions for Discus keepers. I was planning on just adding the amount that I remove at every water change.

Are you saying to just redose with the full dose (1t/20G) amount on days 3, 5, 7, etc. and let them rest (with only half dose in the tank after 50% wc) from Prazi on days 2, 4, 6, etc?

Also, this room does get a lot of sunlight through the curtains, so I guess I will keep the tank covered until the sun starts to set in the evening. I am so grateful for this site because I wouldn't even know that F2 and light don't mix. It says nothing about that on the package!

pcsb23

06-23-2006, 04:54 PM

Thank you Larry and Paul.

Paul~
You say to dose with Prazi every other day....even with the daily 50% water change? I just want to make sure I understand before the weekend because I am not sure that is what it says on the bottle.

I actually think that it says that one treatment is good for 3-5 days. Of course, they are not writing the directions for Discus keepers. I was planning on just adding the amount that I remove at every water change.

Are you saying to just redose with the full dose (1t/20G) amount on days 3, 5, 7, etc. and let them rest (with only half dose in the tank after 50% wc) from Prazi on days 2, 4, 6, etc?

Yes exactly that. Some people dose every day with prazi, but unlike antoibiotics it doesn't degrade as such so I find it just as effective every other day when doing daily w/c's.

Also, this room does get a lot of sunlight through the curtains, so I guess I will keep the tank covered until the sun starts to set in the evening. I am so grateful for this site because I wouldn't even know that F2 and light don't mix. It says nothing about that on the package!
It has to be direct strong light. Also some meds makes the eyes dilate and strong light becomes uncomfortable for the fish too.

Kenny's Discus

06-23-2006, 04:59 PM

Hi Wendi - sorry to hear what happened to your tank of fish...I kinda missed this thread...but our Dr. Paul and many others here have given you excellent advice from above.

IME you replenish what you've taken out with Praiz (I used praizquantal); With Furan-2 you redose everyday after a 50% WCs. Like Larry said I wouldn't worry about ambient sunlight, but definitely keep your tank lights off. JMO

Hope to hear improvements from you soon. Best of luck.

Take care,
Kenny

WendiDeCato

06-23-2006, 05:20 PM

Thank you, both. I think I will just cover the side of the tank closest to the windew with a towel instead of blanketing the whole tank. That way they won't be shocked every time I lift the blanket to observe their behavior. I don't want to add any more stress to their lives.

I will just continue the water changes and medication for the time being. Hopefully I caught this in time to save them.

Regarding feeding, I regulary feed Frozen Blood Worms, but these new fish have only been fed live worms, so they don't even seem to notice any other food in the tank. I originally figured that when they were hungry enough they would eat. But, now that they are sick, I am worried that without eating, they won't have the required strength to get better.

I will keep trying. I have already added Garlic Extreme to attract them to the food. My other Discus and Angels go crazy over the FBW with this stuff in it, but the new, sick Discus couldn't care less. They swim right by as there weren't worms right in front of their faces. Picky little buggers!

pcsb23

06-23-2006, 07:26 PM

Wendi,

I have personally had discus go for over 3 weeks, nearly four without eating, 25 days in fact. It did ok in the end. It is sometimes a battle of wills and I wouldn't mind a pound (dollar) for every discus keeper that has folded before the fish. The key is to get them healthy.

There are a number of live foods out there that can be fed to discus. I do not know enough about CBW (Californian Black Worms). I do know there is some contention about them. We don't get them over in the UK so I have never fed them. As for live blood worm and tubifex worms, it really is one of those where I can (and do) get really hot and bothered over. I am quite certain that many a death of fish and discus in particular can be directly attributed to feeding these pathogen ridden foods. These 'foods' are harvested from stagnant, putrid and polluted still water. At least with daphnia they are harvested from slightly less polluted environments. I don't like or feed live daphnia either!

Ok rant over, and I feel better :)

The live foods I really do like are white worms, brine shrimp, earthworms and red wrigglers. With the last 2 you have to clean them (earthworms mostly) by putting them in paper and keeping cool and moist (not wet). Also you have to chop them up just before feeding. However the white worms and brine shrimp are just about guaranteed to get even the most picky discus feeding!

A couple of things to try, feed them about half an hour after lights on or in this case you getting up and making them aware you are there. Add vit B complex into the water, go to a health food shop and get some brewers yeast tablets, crush a few and disolve in hot wtaer and add it to the tank.

Whilst medicating I would keep the temp on the lower side, around 84, no lower than 82 though. They will use less energy and there will be more dissolved O2 and most meds work just as well at these temps. Also the metabolism slows slightly as does the bacteria, but the drugs still deal with the bugs! Once the course is over the temps can be raised to stimulate their metabolism and hopefully get them feeding again.

Kenny Dr Paul?? I wish !! lol

WendiDeCato

06-27-2006, 02:27 PM

Hello everybody! I hope everyone had a great weekend. I am back with an update.

Amazingly, I think that I might have caught this disease in time to save my fish. Only time will tell. I treated with Furan 2 and Prazipro for 4 days. I am giving them a 24 hour break and then will treat for several more days.

Somehow, none of the other fish are showing signs of illness. The fish that was so bad is now swimming around normally. His skin still looks terrible, though and I am sure he is not yet out of the woods. His skin is very grey in the main part of his body. The only area that has it's color are the outer edges such as his fins and forehead. He is also still acting llike he wants to swim right out of the tank. He swims around and around pretty fast like he is trying to find a way out. I have never had a Discus that acts this way.

I was almost sure that he was a goner. All weekend, he floated on his side at the top of the tank. It scared me to death! I was sure he was going to die. It is only thanks to you people and your advice to Marie that I didn't put him out of his misery. Thank you for that!

The problem that I am dealing with now, is that none of the 3 discus will even look at anything but live food. I broke down and fed some live bloodworms (Sorry Paul......I just now read your last post and am currently hanging my head in shame. :embarassed: ) right before cleaning the tank. They all ate a couple. That made me feel a little better because it is nice to know that they have some sort of appetite and I want them to have the strength to get fight the disease.

On the other hand, who knows what disease the blood worms could possible be carrying. (Yes, I really am listening, Paul) I was assured that they are from a very reliable and clean source, but who really knows. I have never trusted live foods. For all I know, the fact that the person that I got the fish from feeds live foods is probably why the fish is sick in the first place. I will do as you say and wait it out to make the fish give in to the Frozen Blood Worms that I usually feed.

So, right now, my plan is to put Furan 2 and prazipro back in the tank tonight and leave it there (redosing after 50% daily w/c) for the next 6 days along with 1T/10G of salt. None of the other fish seem to be bothered by the medication or the salt and I want to make sure that nobody else gets sick. Does this sound like a good plan?

Another thing, the temp in the Seattle are has been really high for the last couple of days. The temp in my tanks has been between 86-90 on average even though I turned the heater down to 84 when I started treating for bacteria. Talk about bad timing. What's a girl to do???? :(

Wendi

lhforbes12

06-27-2006, 03:23 PM

Wendi,
I'm glad to hear your little guy is doing better. One area where Paul and I disagree is on the use of live foods. I feel that fish never have the vibrancy or health (yes health!) when feeding only prepared foods. I used to feed my discus tubiflex worms many years ago and never once had a problem because of it. I also feel the 99% of the people contenancing against live foods have never used them. No matter what most hobbyists tell you, scientists say that CBW are an entirely safe, very nutrious food.. I put more faith in the scientists personally. Sorry for the rant, but I feel you have been misled. Keep feeding whtever it is that your sick fish will eat for now, and then, if you want, wean them onto prepared foods. I think for the moment at least it is better that they have as much energy as possible in order to fight their illness.

Larry

WendiDeCato

06-27-2006, 03:38 PM

Larry~

Thank you for your opinion. I realize that there are different "schools of thought" on the subject. I appreciate your contribution. :)

Wendi

pcsb23

06-27-2006, 04:57 PM

Actually I do believe in feeding live foods. Foods that are proven as safe. They include white worms, earthworms, brine shrimp etc.. Everyone has to make their own judgements based on experiencce gained. I may just post my experiences with live blood worms one day.

I would continue with the furan 2 treatment, I believe it works better if used for a 12 day period. Keep checking your water params just to be safe. Glad there is an improvement :)

WendiDeCato

06-27-2006, 05:05 PM

Paul~

Will do. Yes, there *seems* to be an improvement and it is all because of this site.

Thank you!

Wendi :wave:

Kindredspirit

06-27-2006, 05:10 PM

Yes Wendi ~ I agree with Paul in that you shld continue with the Furan2 for 12 days ~ i noticed here or in your pm to me that you said you did for only four or five days ~ and then you were going to give a 24 hour break? I think that for antibiodics it takes 4-5 days to start even working so it really is best to continue for 12 days ~ not one day less okay....You want to hit them quick and hard ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

Kenny's Discus

06-27-2006, 05:11 PM

Hi Wendi - glad to hear they're better but when using Furan-2 I don't think it's necessary to "give them a break" (your intention was good of course) due to the risk of bacteria developing resistance to the medication.

Hope they'll fully recovered soon.

KEnny

WendiDeCato

06-27-2006, 05:41 PM

Thank you both. I did a 50% wc last night and did not put the medication in. I did not use carbon to remove what was left, though.

I wasn't sure if taking a 24 hour break was the right thing to do or not. The package says to medicate for 2 days and then break for one day and then resume for another 2 days. I medicated for 4 days and then gave a one day break because I wasn't sure if the fish could handle so many days of medication.

I will do my usual 50% wc tonight and resume medicating for another week or so.

Thanks again!

Kindredspirit

06-27-2006, 05:51 PM

Wendi ~ forget the directions on the package babe okay? Listen to Paul and Kenny ~ trust me ~ they can handle it ~ no more breaks;) read back to what was initially stated ~ I know one can get discombobbled ( i love that word!) thru out all this so hang in there!!

Got your pm and responded~:D

M~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

pcsb23

06-27-2006, 07:01 PM

Wendi,

I know it may be difficult to trust someone when they say 'forget the instructions' mostly the people who write these are playing safe, usually very safe for themselves.

A lot of fish and other animals have become resistant to many anti-biotics, this is partly down to improper treatment and dosing. If an organism is exposed to soemthing that is harmful, and it does not kill them they become stronger against that particular thing.

A good example is fish when they get exposed to nitrite in small levels. Many studies have shown that if they are exposed again to nitrite they can tolerate higher levels than fish that have not been so exposed.

I am not a bio-chemist, but from what I understand anti-biotics have to get into the blood stream and build up to an effective level. I believe this is known as systemic action.

In the UK access to ABs is strictly controlled with few available over the counter. Those that are are either very weak or not true AB's. I haqve had many a discussion with doctors and vets and breeders here in the UK, they all seem to have a simialr philosophy with AB's, hit them hard and long. It has changed my approach to dealing with problems that require AB's.

The problem with furan based (Nitrofurazone) drugs is that they can often make the subject worse before they get better. After witnessing the effectiveness of this class of drugs I am a firm beleiver in them until resistance is found. I just wish they were more readily available in the UK (Vet only ~ therefore v. expensive :().

There is a myth that discus are very fragile and the slightest thing will kill them. During my now 12 or so years experience of keeping them they have lived despite my best efforts to kill them, they are remarkably tough at times!

Hope that helps put your mind at rest.

Graham

06-27-2006, 09:26 PM

One of the problems with any water bourne med is getting it into the fish, if that's where it's needed....the only place that meds are easily adsorbed into the fish is via the gills...the problem is most meds are not well absorb and therefore are all but useless for internal problems.... Furan, Tetracycline and Oxolinic Acid are 3 that are well taken up by the fish. Medicated foods are usefull if the fish is still eating

Within the koi part of the hobby we regularly use injectible antibiotics....There are not many knowledgeable fish Vets around, either in North America or the UK so we develop relationships with local vets and ''teach'' them something about fish Medicine. We use books written by Vets like Dr Erik Johnson, Dr Nick St Erne, Dr Lance Jepson to show the protocols and dosages for using drugs like Baytril, Amikacin, NuFlor etc.

There are a number of other Vets both here and in the UK that put on wet labs to teach hobbyists how to ID problems, using slide scrapes and microscopes. and how to inject and what meds to use for what.

Paul if you contact a local Koi club or any of the major koi dealers in the Uk they can put you in touch with these people.

While dosing protocols would have to be developed, if they are not now, injecting adult discus wouldn't be a problem...I've done 4'' koi without sheshkabobing them........

G

pcsb23

06-28-2006, 10:16 AM

Graham, you are dead right about getting the drugs into the fish. You are also dead right about fish vets too! In Hampshire I have located 1, 25 miles from where I live!!

As for injecting drugs into a discus, why not?

WendiDeCato

06-28-2006, 04:05 PM

Alright Paul and Marie!

I went home and did exactly as you told me. The Furan 2 will be constant for at least another week. I am not sure if I should keep adding the Prazipro. I will probably wait for a few days and then start adding it again in case any new flukes have hatched. I am not seeing signs of flukes at the moment.

In my case, the Furan 2 didn't seem to make anything worse, just better from the get-go.

The only thing was that the Green Turk started floating horizontally at the top of the tank for the first 2 days of medication. His skin looks about the same (gray and faded on the body) as it did the day that I started the meds and he is back to acting normally.

The tiny Tangerine no longer has the milky spots on her fins.

None of the other fish in the tank seem the least bit affected by all of this. So, I don't think keeping the medication in the tank will be a problem at all.

Wendi