New Setup--planted discus tank

[t2000kw]

I would like some feedback on how to set up a new discus tank. Here's some background on what I want to do and what success I've had with other fish so far:

This will be a planted tank, 40 or 55 gallon in size, with substrate. I do not want a bare bottom tank. If it were not for the fact that there are some successful planted discus tanks out there, I would probably choose another species or go into a marine aquarium.

Our current setup for several non-discus tanks shows that we have zero nitrates/nitrites/ammonia in all of our planted fish tanks with no regular water changes (changed some several weeks ago). The plants absorb these as nutrients as fast as the fish produce them.

One of these tanks houses several medium sized fancy goldfish, which are known to produce lots of waste products.

We have quite a few plants in our tanks, and I realize that we might not be able to have quite as many plants in a discus tank, but I'm not sure on this. One aquarist does bi-weekly 1/3 water changes in his planted tank. I would like to know if others who have planted discus tanks have extended beyond that, or if they go more often. The reason for the one person mentioned above doing even bi-weekly changes is to reduce the ammonia/nitrate/nitrite levels, which we have no problems with.

We use some bottom scavengers, including cherry shrimp and corydoras, to further break down the digested food and any food that gets by our fish.

We do test occasionally for water quality just in case, but rarely have any reason for concerns.

Feel free to address only one item at a time if you'd like to make it simpler.

Our known possible problems:

1. Tap water has a pH of 7.4 or higher. In our tanks it drops a bit even without treatment. We have adjusted this on two tanks before down to below 7.0 with sodium bicarbonate with great success. On the other hand, after that experiment, we have never made that adjustment for any of our tanks since then. Our tanks now just use tap water treated for the chlorine removal. It seems that neutral (7.0) is the upper limit for discus, so what are my options here, from least expensive to most useful?

I'd prefer not to add the expense of an RO unit, but I will ask about that in another post.

I realize that part of the reason that lower pH values are used for discus is that waste products are more toxic at higher pH values. We do not have that problem in our planted tanks, so can I go with 7.4 or do I need to drop it a bit to neutral?

2. The GH is about 18, KH less than 4. I don't know if this is a problem or not. It isn't with any of our fish now. I also am aware that these interplay with pH values somewhat. Bicarbonate of soda in small amounts has worked for us before without the ping-pong swings that the acid chemicals cause while trying to lower and stabilize the pH. I don't want to use the pH Up and pH Down type of treatments and would prefer to use calcium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate.

3. Compatible bottom scavengers for discus? Anyone? Can we use corys and cherry shrimp?

4. Compatible fish in general? Can neon tetras work in a discus tank? I've read that they should be put in the tank when the discus are small. Is there a danger of them being eaten for dinner or a late night snack bu the discus?

Thanks in advance. I will probably have discus eventually, sooner if there's not a lot of expense beyond the additional tank and equipment.

Donald

[wolfbane]

Welcome Donald!
My pH runs around 8, never have tried to change it, the fish want consistantpH, not changing up and down, not that important which number as long as its consistant, unless you are breeding.
I keep red cherry shrimp, cory cats, and bristle nose ancistrus as my clean-up crew.
Neons don't do well at discus temps, but cardinal tetras do fine, as do rummy-nose tetras.
Others here have far more experience than me, and hopefully will be along soon to advise you. My tank is a low tech, no CO2. I do 50% water changes 1x a week, even if my numbers look good.

[t2000kw]

Welcome Donald!
My pH runs around 8, never have tried to change it, the fish want consistantpH, not changing up and down, not that important which number as long as its consistant, unless you are breeding.

Wow, I didn't think that high of a pH would work, but I did have an idea that ultimate pH levels (within reason, of course) weren't as important as is the consistency. I've read that with neon tetras, which some people seem to have problems keeping alive, going up is OK but down is much more of a shock. Maybe this is the same with discus?

Breeding is one of my goals, but not necessarily right away. I can work towards that in time.

One of my questions is how to adapt newly arrived discus to my water. How can I go about this, and over how long a time period should I do it? These will travel probably 2 hours in my car in a bucket or two (2 mated pairs). I can keep them at a comfortable temperature by using a power inverter to power a submersible aquarium heater put down inside the bucket. But since there is a need to avoid some sort of pH shock, how do I minimize that?


I keep red cherry shrimp, cory cats, and bristle nose ancistrus as my clean-up crew.
Neons don't do well at discus temps, but cardinal tetras do fine, as do rummy-nose tetras.

I can do cardinal tetras instead. I prefer neons but you go with what works for the situation. If Corys do well at that temperature, that's good. Same for the red cherry shrimp, which we have.


Others here have far more experience than me, and hopefully will be along soon to advise you. My tank is a low tech, no CO2. I do 50% water changes 1x a week, even if my numbers look good.

I've been getting some feedback in my post about RO water, which it appears that I won't need to do--initially, at least. When I decide to breed them, I can slowly add RO water and make subtle pH adjustments downward until I hit a bit lower than 7. I won't do this for some time since I'm not in a hurry to have them breed anyway. I'm more interested in just watching them.

[Alight]

You can do the planted Discus tank thing. Look through the planted tank threads on this site for a bunch of info.

I highly suspect your nitrate test kit readings. Even with a very heavily planted tank, I really can't believe that your gold fish tank shows zero nitrates. If it did, your plants wouldn't grow, but it would be full of algae.

Do this, make up a calibrated solution of nitrate. You can do this with KNO3 or even, just ordinary lawn fertilizer if you do the calculations right. Test you test kit on this stuff. I'm guessing it will read zero. Then, get a new test kit and try it on the test solution.

As you will read, again and again, it is very difficult (nothings impossible of course) to grow out discus to full size in a planted tank.

So, buy adult discus. (It appears you are doing that--so very good!)

Second, we don't change the water in our Discus tanks because of the nitrates. It's the other junk that accumulates along with the nitrates we are getting rid of. This stuff accumulate even when the plants use up the nitrates--so even if you do get a new test kit that you can calibrate, and your nitrates are under 20, you still need to change the water. The more often, the better for the Discus. Two 50% changes/week is minimum untill you are sure your fish are happy and healthy. 50% once a week is possible in a heavily planted, lightly stocked tank (1 Discus/20 gallons).

You can break all of the rules if you want--however, you'll have to be very lucky to keep your Discus healthy if you do. If you follow the rules in the stickies on this site, you will find the Discus are really very easy fish to keep happy, healthy and long lived.

Adapting Discus is easy. The pH is not a problem, but the hardness can be, especially if the water they arrive in is harder than the water you will be putting them in. If the hardness is similar, simply put a cup of water from your tank in the bags every 15 minutes. Remove a cup and add a cup, again and again, for an hour or two. Then net the fish out of the bags and put them in your tank.

For breeding, if you water is GH 6 or higher, you will need the RO unit. Best fertility is under 4 GH. You don't need to keep them in this water all of the time, just for egg laying and hatching. Many have found that fry actually do better at GH 5 or 6 as opposed to lower GH.

[Dissident]

I highly suspect your nitrate test kit readings. Even with a very heavily planted tank, I really can't believe that your gold fish tank shows zero nitrates. If it did, your plants wouldn't grow, but it would be full of algae.


I was thinking the same thing. Even if you have high-light and high CO2 you still should show some NO3. I would suspect that your NO3 kit is dead.

WC:
If you are growing out discus bi-weekly 1/3 WC will not cut it.
If you have adults and do not overfeed 2x1/3 WC/Week would work.
Even with adults in a planted tank I would do 2x50% WC/week so you can reset the tank for ferts. I just fid it easier to measure out 1/2 of what I usually put in the tank vs 1/3 of what I usually put in after a WC.


You did forget to mention what size tank, lighting, and if you are going to have CO2 injection on this tank. Those would be helpfull to know to get the best advice.

[dean]

2 yearold tank
ph 7.6 out of tap
gh10
kh 7
heavily,Heavily planted tank
CO2 injected
EI fert program
3-4 WPG
HOBfilter
8 discus,3 clown loaches,2SAE,BN,4-6 cardinals,2-3 other tetras 2Big angels,two cories.
I started out w/ 1-2 in fish(mistake)butnow a couple are 5-6 inches.
I feed deer and BW twice a day and do a 60% waterchange every 6-8 days straight out of tap,adding prime.
My fish have never missed a beat,feed like pigs, havent lost a fish in over a year.
Now, with my tank being somewhat overstocked, I do the water change to n rduce TDS and reset EI.
I believe I could stretch the intervals between changes somewhat by reducing fishload.
But by not trying to alter water chemistry,the straight-out-of-tap change can be accomplished in 30 min(when I dont have to do a plant trim) and the hob allows for quick clean up.
My biggest improvement(algae) is when I did CO2 injection,I have so little algae(slight green spot on anubias and glass) that I dont even need those worthless SAE.
The clowns clean up every thing, everywhere, including stealing out of discus mouths.
I release shrimp frequently but dont know if they are in there,too thick to see them.
My only issue is the plant trimming,I have to trim to make swimming room.

[t2000kw]

I was thinking the same thing. Even if you have high-light and high CO2 you still should show some NO3. I would suspect that your NO3 kit is dead.


You did forget to mention what size tank, lighting, and if you are going to have CO2 injection on this tank. Those would be helpfull to know to get the best advice.

We did measure nitrates a month or so ago when we first started the tank up, so the test kits (we have more than one as a safety net) are working. Now they are not a problem.

As for tank size, I just got a 55 gallon to set up. It will be a low light, low tech (no CO2), natural aquarium. That's how we have kept nitrates down. The plants are doing wonderfully, no signs of excess NO3. It will have 80 watts of flourescent light. Basically, a "Walstad" type tank.

I may have to scale back a bit on the plants, according to some posts I've read, compared to our goldfish tank. The discus will be two adult pairs, so growth rate and stunting is not an issue. I do plan to at least have a feeding area that is clear so I can do some cleaning where the food will fall.

[t2000kw]

I should have mentioned that the 55 the discus will go into has a glass top to keep water loss to a minimum, which will keep total dissolved solids from being a problem due to water additions, though there are other factors to consider, like waste priducts from the fish.

Also, I didn't explain what a Walstad type tank is, but I can oversimplify it a bit. (Walstad, Diane, The ecology of the planted aquarium.) It uses low light, no CO2, no fertilizers. It uses natural soil under sand and gravel as a substrate to accomplish several things. The substrate does an excellent job of providing micronutrients to the plants for several years, up to 10 or so, without the need to monitor iron and other nutrient levels, which stay well within acceptable limits. This would not be true if plants were being forced to grow faster with more light and added CO2. This type of substrate provided both anerobic and aerobic places for the roots of plants to do their thing, with better biological "filtration" than many other types of setups. One of the great things in a Walstad tank is the accelerated conversion of the toxic wastes ammonia and nitrates and such to useful food for the plants that is safe for the fish (ammonium for one). I can't say that I understand all of the college studies she cites nor all of the chemical equations and explanations in the book, but Walstad seems to know what she's doing, and by duplicating it here it is working very well with all of our planted tanks. Any unplanted tanks we have (like our quarantine tank) with fish in it show nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia and require frequent water changes to lower these concentrations to acceptable levels. In our 100 gallon goldfish tank, we change 1/3 of the water every month or two, just to get rid of some floating plant debris and to reduce some of the dissolved solids in the water. That may get stretched out a bit more now that we have a glass top for that tank also, which will reduce water losses and it won't require adding more water to top off the tank as often.

I don't believe I will get out of doing water changes for the discus, but once I get them established here I intend to do less frequent changes later on.

[t2000kw]

Now, with my tank being somewhat overstocked, I do the water change to reduce TDS and reset EI.
I believe I could stretch the intervals between changes somewhat by reducing fishload.


I am not familiar with EI. What is that?

As for TDS reduction, do you use a TDS meter, like those used to test RO unit efficiency, a hydrometer, or just do the change early enough to be on the safe side since that seems to work for most people?

[t2000kw]

Second, we don't change the water in our Discus tanks because of the nitrates. It's the other junk that accumulates along with the nitrates we are getting rid of. This stuff accumulate even when the plants use up the nitrates--so even if you do get a new test kit that you can calibrate, and your nitrates are under 20, you still need to change the water. The more often, the better for the Discus.


So, what could be used to check for the accumulated "other" stuff in the water? Do you use a TDS meter or a hydrometer to check for specific gravity changes?




You can break all of the rules if you want--however, you'll have to be very lucky to keep your Discus healthy if you do. If you follow the rules in the stickies on this site, you will find the Discus are really very easy fish to keep happy, healthy and long lived.


I intend to follow the "rules" closely, at least at first, make frequent checks on water quality, etc., and not assume that what has worked for our other tanks will work the same for this fish type. Over time, I can make some variances and do it slowly enough to stay within the safe range for my setup.



Adapting Discus is easy. The pH is not a problem, but the hardness can be, especially if the water they arrive in is harder than the water you will be putting them in. If the hardness is similar, simply put a cup of water from your tank in the bags every 15 minutes. Remove a cup and add a cup, again and again, for an hour or two. Then net the fish out of the bags and put them in your tank.

For breeding, if you water is GH 6 or higher, you will need the RO unit. Best fertility is under 4 GH. You don't need to keep them in this water all of the time, just for egg laying and hatching. Many have found that fry actually do better at GH 5 or 6 as opposed to lower GH.

This is exactly what I was looking for in the way of advice for making the initial adjustment. I will find out about the hardness of the "incoming" water that the discus will arrive in.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to connect with the person who wants to sell me the discus. He might be on vacation or maybe he just gets in really late. At the very worst, I might have to start with smaller ones and go from there. There is a breeder that lives less than an hour away who sells them from 2" up through 4" or so at a decent price, but these would not be mated pairs since they would be smaller ones. I hope to get the adult ones that are mated pairs.

[Dissident]

Estimative Index developed by Tom Barr for adding ferts to a high-tech planted tank. The short version.

If you are doing the Walstad type tank you don't need to worry yourself about that.


//edit
I would go with 4" if you are going to be growing them out in a planted tank. It will make your life so much easier.

[t2000kw]

Estimative Index developed by Tom Barr for adding ferts to a high-tech planted tank. The short version.

If you are doing the Walstad type tank you don't need to worry yourself about that.


//edit
I would go with 4" if you are going to be growing them out in a planted tank. It will make your life so much easier.

as for the first comment, the less to be concerned about, the better.

Could you explain why? Not that I don't believe you--I'm trying to understand the "whys" and "whats" at this point.

To help me understand some of the whys and whats, I'm reading a book on discus (Discus Fish, A complete pet owner's manual, by David Schleser) which has some good background information. Copyright date is 1991, so some of the information will be dated, and I can already pick out some of that by comparing things to what I've seen here. The book covers the dark side of discus too much for a beginner's book, but I suppose it's good to have the information on treating certain diseases and conditions. I would also guess that some of the treatments are outdated, but I'll ask about them if and when I need to know more, or perhaps ask just for the information in another thread sometime. In the meantime, it is helping me to know some things I wouldn't have even known to ask about, and that's a good thing.

[Dissident]

Gravel substrates are hard to keep clean. Plants make it even harder.

With younger fish ~2" you will need to feed them a lot to get discus in the 6"+ size. That is a lot of waste and uneaten food in the tank.
Having a 'feeding spot' where there are no plants helps a little but food will still get all over the tank, in and around plants and sit there and rot fouling the water.

With 4"+ fish they will not need to eat as much and by that size they should be on dry foods like Color Bits, high-quality flake etc. That will not mess the water as much.

Just as an example:
8 juvies in my 55gal BBB tank.
By the time for nightly 75% WC NO3 ~20ppm+
Most of the time I will be doing 2x50% or 2x75% WC/Day to keep NO3 <10ppm
They are fed: BeefHeart, BloodWorms, Spiro BrineShrimp (working on colorbits) 8 times a day
Sponge pre-filters are cleaned every 48hrs
Of course this is the power-grow-out method not a nice display tank in the living room.


Water quality is the largest attributing factor to why people lose fish or have trouble with this species.

Personally I love planted discus tanks. LowTech and HighTech, they look great if kept up.

[t2000kw]

Water quality is the largest attributing factor to why people lose fish or have trouble with this species.

Personally I love planted discus tanks. LowTech and HighTech, they look great if kept up.

Thanks for the "whys and whats" about this.

I am hoping for the adult mated pairs if I can get in touch with the person. I will probably see him at our next aquatic plant society meeting next weekend if I don't get in touch before then.

Any advice on making a 2 hour trip from Cincinnati to Chillicothe (Ohio) as least of a stressor for the fish as possible?

I watched one die after a 2 hour trip from Cincinnati to Columbus at one of our member's homes. Before he got his tank ready (probably more than 3 hours or more in th ebacket for the discus) by pulling out some plants, one of them just laid down and died. The other two are doing well, I hear, but it was a shame to lose the third one. They were 4 or more inches in size (maybe 5 or 6).

I have a couple of ideas but I don't want to "overdo" it. I can rig up a power inverter to run a submersible heater borrowed from one of my other tanks (not an issue for the other fish I have).

I can also use two 6-7 gallon buckets (actually plastic fermenting buckets for beer making) to hold about 5 gallons each and keep only two per bucket.

I can also probably just buy the first two and get the other two a couple weeks or a month later. Less to focus on with 2 instead of 4, but another 4 hour plus trip for me.

Ideas and suggestions on the transport part of this would be appreciated.

Thanks, everyone, so far!

[t2000kw]

So, buy adult discus. (It appears you are doing that--so very good!)


Unfortunately, the adult mated pairs I was hoping to buy got sold by the fellow when someone bought his tank setup.

So now I'll be looking for a good price on a few adults (or larger juveniles).

There is a source in Columbus I'll check with. He has good prices and has some 4" or so.

[Dissident]

How many do you plan on getting? I would say get ~4-6 of them. More you have the more WC you will have to do. But also with 6 you can get rid of one or two if they don't turn out how you want.

[t2000kw]

How many do you plan on getting? I would say get ~4-6 of them. More you have the more WC you will have to do. But also with 6 you can get rid of one or two if they don't turn out how you want.

Six small or 2-4 large. I'd like some color variety in the tank but it's not terribly important. Melon and blue woujld be fine. I don't want to end up with 6 because of the water changes, but like you said I could perhaps sell two as they get bigger.